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12:41 PM
28
A: Time to take a stand

SethDisclaimer: This "question" & most of the "answers" are left. The position that I will argue for in this "answer" will be right. Just saying, if you're one of those "SJW" or get "#triggered" easily, you might not want to read this, y'know, to keep your soapbubble intact. To keep this clean I h...

 
@HDE226868 That does - in no way - allow him to compare the situation that he is in right now to the one that the jews were in in 1939. I don't know what was in the - now deleted - comments though. Still, he has no right to use that analogy.
@NewGuy I recall linking to two separate sources whilst making that claim. I'd suggest you read through them?
@anatolyg The document is a decent source to begin with. Sadly - as Magisch - stated in his comment, I apparently missed the update from saturday. It was a bit of a heckmeck, but the latest information that I had was that it did not apply to greencard holders. Given the source that magisch posted, that's no longer the case.
@AlexanderO'Mara Valid point.
 
Ok... I wasn't gonna do it... But now I have to.
To act as if Trump is "right" in any sense of the word is a little ridiculous (unless you're talking about the "alt-right"
Further to act as if this order makes Americans even slightly safer is pretty much false (see the above comment)
Going even further... How can any reasonable person act as if this is anything other than political theater where Trump can have the appearance of fulfilling his campaign promise of "a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on"
 
@apaul34208 He is doing exactly that, fulfilling his campain promises. That's a very rare thing in politics, I personally have very rarely witnessed a politician actually pulling through with rather drastic campaign promises. Also, just fyi: The 7 countries targeted in the ban were selected while Obama was president, and also used 2011 in a 6-month-ban for those countries. People really should stop acting like this is something completely new, because it really is not. Also, why is everyone so surprised about this happening? He said it multiple times, it's not like he didn't warn anyone. =/
 
@apaul34208 He made campaign promises, and now he is fulfilling those. If you're upset about that, blame the people who didn't vote. Trump said what he was going to do, and he was elected as POTUS. It is like it is. I, however, do appreciate Trump for keeping his campaign promises.
 
12:41 PM
It's not surprise it's outrage. A candidate that played on people's fears and appealed to the worst instincts in humanity won an election through an archaic system where the popular vote got tossed out. Also did he really fulfill those promises and is that actually what people want?
 
@apaul34208 Well, I for myself prefer a candidate that keeps his campaign promises over a candidate that simply calls 25% of the population a "basket of deplorables". Communication is nice, y'know. I assume quite a few people were fed up with being labeled as "racists", "homophobes" and the like, simply for - as an example - speaking out for equality. Equality, as in "Everyone is equal", and not - as the left often promotes it - "Some are more equal then others", "White CIS men are the true cancer" and so on. The left gave Trump a lot of voters with that behaviour ;)
 
The US is a pretty safe place in regards to "foreign terrorism" most of our terrorists are homegrown. If any fear mongering is going on it's thanks to your president.
Also did he really fulfill those promises and is that actually what people want? ;)
Y'know evading the topic by bringing up another is poor form.
 
@apaul34208 My dude? Fearmongering? That's what the left has been doing the whole time! "Trump is going to deport all who aren't white", "My daughter's just been threatened with a knife by someone after trump won, saying that she wont be here much longer anyway" and so on. Fearmongering is what the left did & does, and it's disgusting. And apparently he is actually fulfilling his promises / working on doing so, and in this case, yes, it is what people want, it is what I want as well, simply to finally show the left that they're not allmighty.
Aight, now, what topic was I evading?
 
So... pretty much it's more important to win the argument than to actually be right?
 
No.
It's important to have a change in the way humans think.
And by humans I mean all humans, not just lefties or righties.
And I hope that this will be induced by Trump's way of doing politics.
Trump - as of right now - doesn't really pose a danger.
A lot of people are upset about his actions though.
 
12:46 PM
Is it ok to loose the moral high ground in accomplishing that goal?
 
Depends on the "moral high ground" :)
Or, more importantly, who set it.
I mean that in a way that I don't see why moral standards set by certain people should apply to me.
There are general moral standards which I respect, accept, and act along with.
 
Well... Torture? Homophobia? Xenophobia? Racism? These are all issues at hand.
 
But some "moral standards", which, as you might've expected me to say, all too often are set by lefties.
Yeah, well, let's talk about that.
 
I'm not a lefty
 
Torture? Uncool. Remember though, Obama did that as well, no outrage here.
Homophobia? Uncool.
 
12:48 PM
Get over the bi-polarization
 
Xenophobia? This is where it gets interesting.
Y'know what Xenophobia means I assume. Now let's say I call someone a xenophobic.
By doing so, I separate him from me, I put him into a different drawer of the desk that is the human race.
Now I alienated him myself.
Basically, I am a xenophobe myself for calling someone a xenophobe.
It's a loop.
Racism? uncool as well.
 
True, but that doesn't excuse your position.
 
But by using the term racism or racist one automatically acknowledges the legitimation of humans being divided into races.
There are no "human races", there's one human race, and that's it, period, the termin racism in itself is racist.
My position is that we actually need to focus on what's important & what's not.
Why is a preferred pronoun more important then people dying in the middle east?
Why are safe spaces more important then giving shelter to those who are freezing to death
 
Who said it was?
 
Or whose houses have been bombed
The whole freaking left.
And that's what I really like about Trump.
I really hope he fucks up.
 
12:52 PM
You seem to assume that you know my position based on a stereotype
 
No, I do not know your position, you said you aren't a leftie, and I accept that.
 
He has fucked up. A lot.
 
That doesn't change the fact (yes, fact), that most (yes, most) lefties do, in fact, spend more time, effort, and money on safe spaces and preferred pronouns then they do on helping the people in the middle east.
 
This seems to be mostly about being against lefties
 
Mh, yes, sort of. But hear me out for 1 sec, I will try to explain it.
I am not a "white supremacist", nor am I really on the right spectrum. I actually do prefer not to indulge with politic matters since I find those to be utterly annoying & pointless, since a point of consensus is hardly ever reached.
Right now, I am simply against focussing on the wrong problems.
 
12:56 PM
Mhmm...
 
"Wrong problems" as in "problems, where the significance is simply not big enough to justify the amount of effort spend on solving those"
And those problems are what the left media, and lefties (hate using that word, cannot think of a better, less derogative one though) usually promote.
And that just drives me furious.
People die due to political disturbances caused by horseshit like the iraq war
 
So, you're admittedly someone who doesn't bother to stay involved in political discourse normally, except when you get the chance to bash someone else?
 
No, I only actually join political debates if I feel the need to.
Which I, in this case, felt, simply because this stuff didn't & doesn't belong on MSO, in my opinion.
And, also
Because I felt like the "debate" if you want to call it that way was heavily biased towards the left side.
Simply due to the tone used by Joel in his "question".
 
You really need to get over this left vs right thing
 
Yes, we do.
Welp, in a perfect world humans will be able to talk to each other normally.
Regardless of religion, culture, opinions, politics and so on.
But until then it'd be nice focussing on actual, legitimate problems :/
Idk about what other people think, but I for myself do value lives more then people getting their safespaces.
 
1:01 PM
Separate the issues. Is barring political asylum for people trying to escape a war zone a good idea or a bad idea?
 
Oh, no, it's a terrible idea.
But, part of the issue are negative examples.
 
We weren't talking about safe spaces
 
Take a look at germany (I am from germany)
The problems that "refugees" are causing are immense.
But those are not real refugees.
The people from syria for example are nice people
Hard working, friendly, mostly families, willing to integrate, all well and good.
Then, on the other hand, you have people from countries which are not at war.
 
I am in the US guten morgen by the wa
 
Guten morgen :)
 
1:03 PM
*way
 
The problem is that some - or more then some - people come from those countries, simply to cause trouble.
For example, from north africa. Or from marokko.
They are not fleeing war. They are not fleeing political witchhunts.
They come here, and cause trouble.
They are guests, and they think they're free to do whatever they please to.
 
What trouble are they causing?
 
And that just ends up being a big pile of horse-doodoo.
Uhh, heard of sylvester in koeln?
 
Nope
 
Cologne*
Well, on Sylvester last year (1 year, 1 month ago) there were allegedly hundreds of sexual assaults on women, by foreigners.
 
1:06 PM
Allegedly?
 
The media tried to keep it down (didn't really work out too well, and made it all look wrong) due to the ongoing debate about refugees.
Yeah, kind of. The numbers are unclear.
 
Mhmm
 
Hundreds were reported, most of them could not be "verified"
There were a lot of arrests, and so on
 
I think I heard something about that on the radio here
 
and of course the "right" side tried to market it as "Germany is dieing, and they are silencing issues like these!!!!"
It was a giant pile of horse-dodo.
And then, this sylvester, they did it differently.
They basically controlled a lot of people who wanted to go on that place
And they focussed on north-africans.
Using a codeword "Nafri" to identify them.
Kinda came across wrong in the media.
But, in the end, it worked out, no sexual assaults reported.
But this is the kind of shit we're dealing with here, and it's just pathetic.
You have people asking for help, because their house gets bombed once everyday in syria.
And then you have those people, disguising as refugees, and pulling shit like that off.
 
1:10 PM
It's that horse-dodo thing... usually when anyone focuses on and demonizes a particular group it's horse-dodo
 
Yep. The problem is that the "illegimate refugees" (aka. the ones not really fleeing, but rather looking for opportunities to cause trouble) ruin the image of the "legimate refugees".
 
People move from hard places to better places when they can, can you really blame them?
 
No, I wouldn't dare blaming someone who does that.
But I am quite surprised about people being "guest" in a country & thinking that they can do everything they want.
That isn't what you're supposed to do as guest.
 
In the US most of our immigrants come from south and central America. Life is generally pretty hard down there, largely because they got the shit end of the stick in the colonial days. Some of what is now the US used to be Mexico, we kinda took that from them. But despite all of the history I have many friends from Mexico. I choose not to see them as guests, but as people.
 
Hmm.
 
1:16 PM
When we can drop the borders and stereotypes and just talk, things usually work out pretty well.
 
Yes, but everyone would need to do that.
And we don't only have borders between states.
Religions for example create borders.
Politics do.
I can see how what you said would work out in a reasonably "small" size.
But not globally. You always have someone who causes trouble somehow. And that's why we can't have nice things.
 
It's all reasonably small size. How many immigrants do you know personally?
 
Like 60, something around there.
 
You have a lot of friends
 
I did a lot of voluntary work in a "camp" for refugees.
=)
 
1:21 PM
Then you should know better ;)
 
I am reasonable fluent in english & german, so I asked if they needed any help regarding language lessons.
Oh, the people I got to know there are wonderful (as I said above) :p
These were mostly families, and they were all very nice. We got along very well.
But those aren't the problem.
 
Honestly my German is absolutely terrible...
 
Those people could come anyday & I wouldn't mind it a single bit.
 
But those are the people most effected
 
But I don't understand why one travels from Marokko to Germany, only to be arrested for sexual assault.
Yes! Exactly!
And that's what's so utterly disgusting about this whole business.
Because the ones that seek aid, and need it, the innocent victims of war and such, are negatively affected by those actions.
 
1:24 PM
1 in a 1,000 is a criminal, or 1 in 100,000... are the crime statistics very different in germany?
 
That depends who your 1,000 are.
Is it 1:1000 refugees?
Probably smaller then that, like 1:10,000 is criminal.
But if you go by where they come from, you have something like 1:100,000 refugees from syria
 
Assuming that people from another region are inherently criminal is kinda fucked up, right?
 
Na, it actually isnt c:
Those stats (^) are based on the criminal stats released by the authorities.
The reason is simply the motive, and yes, that sounds pretty brutal, but let's just compare.
If someone lives in a country, has a house, and suddenly notices that his house is getting bombed, every day of the week
 
In the US, immigrants tend to have lower crime stats because they're afraid of being deported.
 
How motivated is he to not mess up, to not do something stupid
YES
Yes, yes, yes
 
1:27 PM
...
 
That's actually similar to what we have in germany here.
 
You're killing me
 
=(
Sorry.
The thing is that immigrants have that motivation, they dont want to leave, they fled bad circumstances and want to stay.
The other group of people is actually just here for "fun".
They don't have the need to, their life isn't threatened, but they still come here.
 
So... given that immigrants tend to be better citizens, on average, why support this nonsense?
 
Because immigrants != immigrants.
There are those that are here because they have to.
And then there are those that are here because they can.
 
1:29 PM
Not true
 
And the latter ones are causing the problems you read about in the newspapers.
Not true?
 
You've talked to people from the "third world", what is life like back home? Even outside of war zones, poverty and hunger are some serious motivators
 
Honestly, just speaking for myself, if I came from a country from the third world, and I wanted a better life
I would probably do something more sensible then getting charged with sexual assault on my second day in that new country.
And then end up getting send back.
 
People who are criminals are going to be criminals no matter where they are.
 
One can suppress certain "urges" if ones motivation is strong enough.
 
1:34 PM
Sometimes, but not always
 
I mean, if we were talking about stuff getting stolen, I wouldnt really mind
 
Have you ever heard of confirmation bias?
 
Y'know, they had a hard life over there, they're used to taking what they need (Dont get me wrong, not saying they're stealing, but they take what they need, even if it means stealing, simply to survive), let's give them some time to adjust.
 
Mhmm
 
No, actually, I have not.
:p
 
1:36 PM
I get the feeling you're smarter than that
 
This is turning out to be quite the learning experience.
 
Definitely
See what can happen when you exchange ideas
 
Smarter then what I wrote up there? "Y'know, they had a..."
Exchanging ideas is never bad :)
Communication is what enables you to exchange ideas.
And one day people will understand that, and actually start communicating with each other, independent of colour, origin, language or other barriers.
But, right now, we're sitting in a chatroom of SO & talking about our different stances on a political topic c:
So, confirmation bias, what is that?
 
So why do you support trump again?
 
Because I want to see the world burn.
Not actually.
It's hard to put this specific word into english :s
 
The problem that I see with the US - and also most other first world countries - is that they have not really experienced change in the last 10-20 years.
In german it's called "durchregieren"
 
I was an anarchist once upon a time
 
You have a party (or two) which lead the country, and they don't really change. The opposition doesnt change either, and every time the people lose a bit of freedom.
Ahh, anarchy.
Wonderful concept, sadly utopian.
 
True, hence once upon a time
 
I see.
Ah, interesting. I thought confirmation bias would be something in that direction.
Might very well be that I am biased against a certain group of "refugees".
 
1:42 PM
The only translation I'm finding for durchregieren is "by government"
 
Mh :/
It's basically when the leading party doesn't change.
At some point, they will not see the need to keep their campaign promises.
They will go about it as "Nah, no need to change something, we'll get re-elected anyways, so let's pull some really stupid stuff off"
And that's why having a change up there is - in my eyes - exactly what's needed.
I would've loved seeing a "better" candidate win against clinton
But.. =/
 
Honestly I thought Hillary was evil, but at least competently evil
Trump was just ridiculous and baffling
 
Mhh, my way of looking at it is this. Hillary is the organized evil. Trump is just a clown with a lot of money, a never-shut mouth & a big-ass truck, which he uses to steamroll over conventions & all that stuff.
I like the option that's been chosen. I think Trump will do more visible damage, but less damage then Hillary would've done.
I mean, Hillary herself said prior to the elections that she would confront russia =S
I don't know about you, but I'd like to prevent world war 3 from happening.
 
Fair enough, but Trump's tacit support of Russia is also disturbing
On the other hand Trump did challenge China's One China Policy.
 
Indeed. I honestly doubt that he actually has a plan.
I think what's keeping him at bay are his consultants.
 
1:51 PM
So... do you see why we're worried over here?
 
Yeah :)
He has the red button, after all.
 
He's like a a monkey with a machine gun
 
Have you seen the video of the monkey and the soldiers?
They gave him an AK-47 for fun.
It was funny until he figured out how to shoot.
 
No bueno
 
That could be comparable, actually.
Monkey (Trump) + Machine Gun (Presidency) ..
Wanna bet how long it takes him to figure out how to shoot?
 
1:53 PM
Shit...
 
Oh yes =) Hey, we found a fitting analogy!
 
Yup! lol
 
And I truly hope that "figuring out how to shoot" does not include actually shooting.
Also I hope that if he shoots, it won't be nukes.
 
That's a big part of my worry, the guy is awfully thin skinned
Any offense is taken to the extreme
 
Yep...
I do think that the situation is actually funny, in a sense atleast.
I mean, he makes one negative tweet about a company, and the stock price loses 10%.
He's a president, and he's using twitter.
It's like he's a celebrity in the white house or something like that.
 
1:57 PM
So... please, please, please consider altering your position on him
 
I still think he's better than hillary :D
But he's not good.
But I think that if we manage to not go into WW3
in the next 4 years
we will see much better candidates
 
Better than Hillary isn't saying much, but it's enough
 
=)
Yeah, well, honestly speaking, someone like Sanders (who knows his stuff, has no reported cases of corruption etc) would've been perfect - in my eyes that is.
 
Honestly I thought that would happen after Bush Jr. but these things happen...
 
But in the end the american people had to make a choice between HC and DJT
Yep.
 
1:59 PM
I thought Sanders was better too
 
I mean, the choice was difficult for everyone I think (at first, after a while it was so heated that I don't think anyone remained "neutral") :/
The choice between a corrupt woman ("of the establishment") and a guy that doesn't acknowledge climatic change...
Not the easiest choice I can imagine
 
Yay, see there's hope for posting offtopic political rants on a Stack Exchange after all ;)
 
:p
I would've preferred to have that discussion on MSE though, where it - imo - would've been better suited
 
Hey things happened, you have to acknowledge that
 
But whyyy on MSO =(
People will use that post as justification to post similar posts.
 
2:04 PM
Cause the audience is huge
 
And then we will have to clean up =/
Yeah, I know, but that could've been done by using MSE & a banner on SO as well
:|
 
Meh... we have to clean up anyway
 
True
One more or less doesn't really matter that much I guess =|
 
I'm really glad we came to something meaningful here
 
So am I! :)
I must say, I really enjoyed this discussion.
 
2:07 PM
Would you mind if I post a link to this under your post, and also my post?
 
Definitely not! :)
 
"You sir are a scholar and a gentleman and one day people are going to write songs about you"
 
Thanks, same must be said about you! I don't know that quote :3 Where is it from?
 
2:21 PM
Damn... I can't find the original, but this conveys the general meaning: benjaminworthen.com/…
 
Ahh!
Thanks a lot, I can only return that :)
It's nice actually talking to someone who has a different stance on politics.
 

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