« first day (9 days earlier)   

6:11 AM
@Shog9 Just to be clear, I never made an edit to Joel's post. I cast a close vote on the first day, but I never edited.
@Shog9 Acting as model users and adhering to the Be Nice policy as much as possible doesn't "weaken" anything. Yes, it takes away some words you might want to use, but that's no different from how the policy applies in every other case.
@Shog9 What it does do is leave you with only a few options in terms of how you present yourself. When you take away options like name calling, dismissing, misinterpreting, misrepresenting, and so on, you're basically stuck with only facts and logic to make your case with. I can tell you from personal experience that this makes your arguments much stronger. And also much more persuasive. It opens some people up to what you have to say.
@Shog9 Sure, they don't give you that feeling of having really, "stuck it to them," and aren't as popular with those who agree with you from the get go, but if you're serious about respectful discourse, those should already be out the window. None of this is really surprising since respectful discourse is pretty unpopular and in short supply nowadays.
@Shog9 But the bottom line is that being nice doesn't preclude making a strong or sharp criticism. It just limits you to strengthening it with substance, as opposed to emotional outbursts like, "Stop acting like my grandma isn't human," or dismissive phrases like, "The things you believe are morally repugnant and stupid."
 
@jpmc26 My apologies - I got you mixed up with @TinyGiant.
 
If you don't mind, I'd appreciate a few minutes. I'm not done yet.
 
Which is as good an indication as any that trying to continue this conversation entirely in the early-AM is not a good idea.
 
6:26 AM
That's okay. I figured that was just a mistake. I just wanted to clear it up.
 
@jpmc26 If you still have things you want to say here, go ahead and shoot me an email; I've spent over a week on this now, and if I'm going to spend any more time it's going to be while I'm awake.
My original goal here was to encourage folks to curb the meta discussion and write answers that addressed the actual topic. In your case, I've most certainly failed in that goal, and the post is currently locked.
And on that note, I am dead tired and so bid you good night.
 
Have a good night, Shog.
I'm worried that replying elsewhere means losing a lot of important context.
I'm going to leave one more message here because the context of what's already been said before is really important.
@Shog9 When we originally discussed this post, you suggested that one of the reasons this post is relevant to SO is the fear that there might be some kind of Internet ban based on country. You used this as a defense that this needs to be discussed, even though this has never happened before.
By contrast, I gave you real world examples of religious persecution happening in our modern world, and I didn't even use them as a defense of anything. I only tried to explain why the idea of, "Be Nice" was something I take so personally. I don't think, "I am upset because of the things I see happening to people like me," is hyperbolic at all.
(Sorry. I hope that didn't give you some kind of notification that woke you up. =/)
But to be really honest, it's not consistent of you to use a type of argument and then dismiss it when someone else uses the same kind to make a personal, very weak point.
And take your time responding; the only reason I used Reply is because you said it helped you understand the context of my responses.
 
 
1 hour later…
7:51 AM
If altering a post for compliance with Be Nice changes the intent, then the intent wasn't nice and the post doesn't belong on the SE network.
3
 
8:18 AM
I get that SO staff feels impassioned by this issue. That's fine. Personally, I don't even really have a problem with using Meta to bring up political issues. The only problem I have with it is that the on-topic rules are part of what prevents these kinds of conflicts in the first place. But to me, it's a lot more important that staff follows the Be Nice policy not just to the letter, but also in spirit.
I don't see how we can even have a respectful discussion about the issues if the original post doesn't obviously and straightforwardly respect the opposing viewpoint. Joel's post is at best passive-aggressive towards it. At worst, it's outright disrespectful. That doesn't mean that was intentional, but whether it was intentional isn't even really the issue.
All I really want from SO is to say, "We're sorry. This went over the line. We won't do it again," and then deal with the post in a way to make the opposing viewpoint more welcome, or delete it outright if that's not possible for some reason. The closing content edited in actually makes the opposing viewpoint less welcome, not more.
 
An apology and a promise that it won't happen again would be nice, yes.
Businesses aren't supposed to advertise one thing, deliver something completely different because the CEO felt like it, and then hurriedly change the advertising after the fact to accommodate the changes.
 
 
8 hours later…
4:58 PM
@Shog9 I was wondering if you could answer a question for me, looking at the data dump it doesn't tell me what vote types 15 and 16 are, but I see a lot of them. Do you happen to know?
 
 
4 hours later…
8:39 PM
@EBrown 15 is "moderator review" - literally just "a moderator opened this page while a flag was active"
16 is "approve suggested edit", which is kinda self-explanatory
@jpmc26 this is why we're never going to resolve this conversation.
I could sit here until the end of time saying, "criticism of a policy is not the same as criticism of people who may or may not agree with the policy"
but it wouldn't matter, because it hasn't mattered all week
And all the rest of this conversation has been a distraction from that key point
So I'm gonna pin that and freeze this room.
 
Shog9 has frozen this room.
 

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