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12:06 AM
Apart from being hard to moderate, the excessive comments were actually causing technical issues for some users, who couldn't even load the page sometimes. Use chat instead of commenting on that question.
 
 
2 hours later…
user764357
1:40 AM
In case people are curious, it seems the report of someones mother who dies in Iraq after Trumps immigration order was in fact fake. She died 5 days prior. A guy lied about his own mothers death to smear Trump. foxla.com/news/local-news/233065483-story
 
1:51 AM
@LegoStormtroopr Par for the course these days, it seems.
 
 
1 hour later…
user6820627
3:10 AM
IMO, there's no time to take a stand
 
user6820627
trump is not killing people
 
@jpmc26 Maybe. Then again, maybe this is the start of a return to greatness for America, turning the page to a time when once again folks are willing to stand up and call it as they see it, when basketball players wear collars and...
(apparently that was a real thing back in the '50s; one of my co-workers dug it up.)
On a more serious note: this may end up going nowhere. Still useful as sort of a stress test.
 
I have enough stress, thanks. :P
 
@EBrown, I've scanned through your email, gonna try & find time to consider it more carefully before I respond.
 
3:37 AM
@Shog9 I strongly disagree. A house divided cannot stand. Additionally, I don't see this as a race issue to begin with. Linked this earlier, but no harm in doing it again: slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-wolf.
I'm fairly confident that for those who agree with it, it's a "protecting Americans issue." And for those who disagree with it, it's either an, "This doesn't work," or, "The value of bringing in other people is so high that it's a tolerable risk," issue.
 
@jpmc26 I'd love to see some policies actually aimed at protecting Americans. Y'know, from real threats. But you're right that I don't see that here.
As for "tolerable risk"... Well, if you drive an automobile in most parts of the country, you're taking on far more risk at the hands of your fellow drivers than you'll likely ever face from immigrants.
 
@Shog9 You're welcome to disagree that the threat is real. I happen to think that the 90s bombings and 9-11 are sufficient evidence there is some kind of threat coming out of the Middle East, and whether or not I think this policy makes any sense, I'm certainly sympathetic to those who are afraid. And I refuse to dismiss them as racist for it.
 
@jpmc26 Funny thing about most of those attacks... They didn't come close to me or anyone I know.
Call that a selfish attitude if you want, but... I can't help but notice how the politicians who've been screaming the loudest about "terrorism" these past 20 years have mostly been from NYC.
 
Okay, but that still doesn't justify calling people racist because they're worried about terrorism.
 
I didn't call anyone racist.
I said the terrorism argument was... bunk.
The way I see it, I'm subsidizing security for a town I couldn't even afford to live in.
 
3:45 AM
@Shog9 That there is an image that decries racism. The only way it could be relevant is if racism has something to do with the issue at hand. And the only things that can be racist are people. If you don't think someone is being racist here, why did you post it? Surely, you wouldn't joke about something as serious as it is.
I mean, seriously. "I didn't call anyone racist," is at best word games here. That's the only possible meaning of posting that image.
 
@jpmc26 the image decries religious persecution, decries racism, decries discrimination based on country of origin. You picked one of those three to fixate on.
@jpmc26 why are you so hung up on racism?
 
You're right. I'm sorry. I should've looked more closely. I apologize.
 
And don't talk to me about word games when you're once again ignoring most of the words I'm typing. If you don't want to have this conversation, I can go to bed; I was sitting here reading about ClipboardEvents, which is a hell of a lot more relaxing at this point.
I thought the image was poignant, as we'd previously discussed how "un-american" could be interpreted in various ways; it illustrates how the connotation applicable to Joel's post has been used in this sense in the past, which seems relevant.
 
I'm not ignoring most of the words you're typing, Shog. I'm paying a lot of attention to them. And it seems like you're convinced that the policy is not motivated by the thing the person who made it says it is. You base that on your belief that it's ineffective, but if Trump thinks it will be effective, which seems apparent if he made the order, then I don't see how you can say it's not motivated by that.
 
@jpmc26 I don't know what Trump thinks. I've learned long ago to be wary of what people in power say about their motivations; watch the actions.
 
3:52 AM
Okay, but this action doesn't contradict the notion that he's concerned about terrorism and thinks this will help.
 
Here in Colorado, we don't have much of a problem with Islamic terrorism. We have enough home-grown terrorists.
And... We have a sufficiently well-armed populace to both enable and to some extent mitigate those.
So we don't need the Feds to come crashing in with solutions.
Same thing with the "border wall" as far as that goes. Lots of immigrant crime coming up from the south, but y'know what we're doing about it? Cutting off demand.
Home-grown solutions.
Not... Magic beans.
Now, I get that for some folks foreign terrorism is a much more plausible threat.
Fine. But beware of the Politician's syllogism
Just because a politician sez there's a problem and you agree, doesn't mean their actions are in any way a solution.
Again, look at what they do, not what they say.
 
@Shog9 I know, and I didn't argue that it is.
 
Good. So we can have a conversation then.
 
The thing that bothers me about the wall from a getting it done point of view (already opposed to the theory) is that paying for it assumes that if you look at the trade deficit, and look at Mexico's US expenditures, they are $295B annually. So the idea that adding in a 20% tax on that to gain $50B to pay for the wall is kind of flawed. The total wont change, meaning that the expenditures will drop, but due to tariffs will still seem the same.
This just hurts the overall economy, and doesn't actually generate any money.
In other words, if I have $10 to spend and I spend it all, I get $10 of goods. If a $2 tax is introduced, I don't magically have $12, I just end up only spending $8 on goods.
 
you still spend $10. just you only get $8 of goods.
 
4:04 AM
There is still no extra money. The US taxpayer pays the difference.
 
If you assume that expenditures remain unchanged at $295B, then a 20% tariff would generate around $59B of tax money and leave them with $236B of goods.
 
Then you took that money from the private sector.
 
if I were going to attack the math there, I'd probably say expenditures won't stay the same.
not saying you're wrong.
just thinking through the logic.
 
Yeah, I donno... I kinda feel like it's gonna end up being another Works Progress thing, where in practice we're just spending money to put people to work because we don't have any better ideas. Which ain't the worst idea, although if we're gonna try & get a bunch of new folks into construction work I'd personally rather have 'em out building new bridges on the Interstate or something.
 
I just want properly paved roads, personally. lol. I think the problem is my state has too many roads.
 
4:08 AM
Yeah, actual infrastructure as opposed to this needless wall. Scalia even said the wall was unconstitutional as it was a waste of appropriation.
 
Or... We could legalize meth and get some good pharma jobs to feed the demand that's already there, while cutting off the profits for Mexican cartels. And then use the profits for something other than a now-unnecessary wall.
 
I suppose that fits the mantra of doing something extreme. However, meth is kind of rough on society as a whole. It really does a number of people when they get into it.
 
@TravisJ Uhhh... All I can find on Scalia's relation to the wall is a ruling about an EPA regulation.
 
Let me see if I can get the quote
 
> But the 2006 law authorizes the secretary of homeland security only to take actions to secure the border that are “necessary and appropriate.”
 
4:11 AM
@TravisJ yeah, well, take it from me, folks aren't exactly having trouble finding it right now. Although I'm told the kids are all into heroin these days, and the suburbs seem to prefer oxys, so maybe legalize opiates too just to cover the bases.
 
The argument seems to be, "Very little return for very much spending," ...which, okay, yeah, I can see how you'd call that "waste of appropriations."
@Shog9 If we legalized meth, wouldn't the Mexican cartels just sell it legally?
 
@jpmc26 Hence my comparison to WPA
@jpmc26 maybe, but then they'd have to compete
Free market, baby
 
I suspect we'd heavily regulate it, which would incur costs they don't have.
 
@jpmc26 - Yes that was the one
I would also make it safer to not get bad batches or whatnot (assuming the FDA was still around to do that sort of thing)
 
Before we legalized pot here, the cartels would send up shipments of bricks - that's buds that've been compressed into a solid block and cured in more or less the same way silage does. It tasted terrible, the potency sucked, and it was expensive.
 
4:15 AM
Even though meth is not as complicated to acquire, it is still a hassle to come by overall, and that type of substance is also hard to consistently come by. Legalizing it would not only make it more readily available but it would also send the message that it was considered safe to consume recreationally.
I never understood why people were into that sort of low quality pot. Nor do I understand why people are using seed planting and calling it by a clonal strain name.
 
No one buys that anymore unless they're stupid or desperate. You can walk into a locally-owned shop in any town and buy locally-grown, high-quality high-potency bud for less than the foreign crap. There's still a black market of sorts, but even that is mostly local; the import market practically disappeared.
 
I think that pot is a far different conversation than meth though. Aside from that awesome disaster you guys had with the bulldozer and the old mine shaft overall it doesn't seem like accidents have been that terrible :P
 
Meanwhile, use has gone down among kids, which was the big boogieman prior to legalization. Price the blackmarket dealers out, and now you've got reputable business that charge tax and card
@TravisJ the really funny part of that is that it was the EPA
 
yeah, it was pretty bad
 
I mean, funny for those of us who weren't downstream
 
4:19 AM
Not to mention not locking people up for having a small amount of pot which I never understood. Just makes excessive stress on the system and on the average person.
 
How does it stress the average person?
 
Anyway, don't get me wrong, meth is terrible stuff. Awful lot of folks who can't handle it, and the failure mode there is... really bad. But... Right now, we're just compounding the problem; someone's smoking their life away, you don't make it better by throwing them in jail and bankrupting them.
 
The average person who uses pot @jpmc26. Rich people don't get bothered with that type of petty policing.
@Shog9 - Holland has a very good system for rehabing that type of drug user, those who are a danger more to themselves than anyone else.
 
Same thing with opiates; a bad oxy addiction is at least as bad as alcoholism, but practically no one gets real treatment.
 
Yeah apparently in the midwest that is a big problem right now.
 
4:24 AM
It's getting worse fast. Unfortunately, the predictable reaction of politicians to the problem is to make it harder to get, which... Just sets up a profitable black market.
 
I liked how Massachusetts has taken an approach towards rehab instead of jail for drug addicts that want help (nytimes.com/2016/01/25/us/…)
> Any addict who walks into the police station with the remainder of their drug equipment (needles, etc.) or drugs and asks for help will NOT be charged
> Instead we will walk them through the system toward detox and recovery”and send them for treatment on the spot
Not sure how well it went a year later though
 
Yeah, that's reasonable... But, if you're at the point where you can make that decision you're already on your way to recovery.
 
That's true, the first step of recovery is acknowledging you have a problem... or so I have heard, from other people with, you know, problems. :P
 
For a lot of folks, it's just a slippery slope. Get hurt, doc gives you pills. Doc won't give you more pills? Buy 'em off of friends. Friends won't give you more pills? Buy 'em off someone else. Out of cash? Steal 'em.
...or get your kid to share their heroin I guess
 
Chronic pain is a really debilitating thing to have, and a lot of people end up there through accidents
 
4:27 AM
yup
 
So, was there a not a robot badge in India?
It would be nice to have a shot at one closer to home
 
yeah, that'd be nice
 
I bet the snow pack in Colorado is pretty epic right now
 
I have access to the route for awarding them; if you're ever up this way, stop by for a beer & we'll pretend it's an Event
 
That would be awesome!
Now I just need to find a good time to go :P
LAX -> Denver is a pretty easy flight, nice view of the Grand Canon too
 
4:38 AM
Lemme know if you make it, we can try & crash the office.
And on that note, I'm off to bed.
 
g'night :)
 
user764357
5:01 AM
@Shog9 See thats mitigatable risk. If I don't want to risk a car accident, I don't drive and stay away from roads where possible. This is why people are so scared of terrorism. Everything is fine, then bang a guy drives a truck through a festival.
 
user764357
I'm sorry, but thats scary. And o be frank a big difference between Islamic and Christian terrorism. Christian terrorists (and they do exist) bomb or attack abortion clinics, now I believe in a womens right to choose, so shutting them isn't an option. What is is normalising, or targetting groups to say "hey this isn't an attack on your values". Islamic terrorism so far has been random and chaotic.
 
user764357
Its a truck in a festival, or a gay nightclub, or a metal show, or a newspaper that prints pictures they don't like. There is no pattern there, I can't manage my risk.
 
user764357
One day, someone might just blow up the bus I'm on because its the bus they could get to.
 
5:35 AM
@Shog9 No problem, you may or may not even need to respond to it, it's just a trend I noticed.
 
 
2 hours later…
7:49 AM
@Shog9 "when you're once again ignoring most of the words I'm typing" I thought about this a lot after you said it, because listening to other people and making sure I am taking them seriously is something important to me. That's partly because there was a time when it wasn't so important to me, and gradually, I started to realize it's not okay and would only hurt the other person and myself. So it's something I try really hard to guard against.
@Shog9 Having thought about it, I don't think I've been ignoring what you've been saying. But I am frustrated by how you communicate. I ask questions, and I get 20 minute stories where I don't see the connection. Or I ask something and don't get a "yes" or "no" when one is appropriate (as in it's not some weaselly question). I try to restate what I think you're saying and then explain why I don't think it invalidates my point, but it looks like that makes you feel ignored.
@Shog9 I try really, really, really hard to understand what someone I disagree with is saying and to answer it honestly, and I try really, really hard to state my case clearly so the other person can give what I've said the same consideration. I admit I went off completely in la-la-land on that picture you posted; I dunno what happened. But I don't think that's typical of what I've done in this chat room.
@Shog9 If you have any suggestions on how I can communicate more clearly, I'm glad to hear them.
 
 
1 hour later…
9:14 AM
^^^ discussion of top answer (was moved from comments to chat)
in Discussion on answer by Kasra Rahjerdi: Time to take a stand, 2 days ago, by TigerhawkT3
I am Jewish. My grandfather's family escaped Germany in the 30s, and at least one of my other relatives died at Auschwitz. I really don't appreciate the implication that anyone who doesn't find a programming QA website with specific rules prohibiting politics to be an appropriate venue for politics is some kind of Nazi sympathizer.
 
9:28 AM
@gnat I'm not 100% clear that that's exactly what they meant, so I was hoping for the OP to clarify their meaning before I edit their answer.
 
user764357
9:46 AM
To my friends on all sides of the political spectrum, please stay safe. The footage coming out of Berkeley is terrifying.
 
Hey, that's a couple hours away from me. I'm almost afraid to wonder what my fellow Californians are up to.
 
user764357
You haven't seen the news?
 
If anything egregious happens, I'm sure it'll be Featured on Meta.SO, and Newscaster Joel will fill me in.
 
user764357
Oh snap.
 
user764357
But seriously.
 
9:51 AM
Yeah, I haven't looked anything up.
 
user764357
Riots, fires, a few banks are wrecked, several injured. All because someone with some questionnable (not even that troublesome) ideas was going to have a speech. edition.cnn.com/2017/02/01/us/milo-yiannopoulos-berkeley
 
Sounds like tolerance.
 
user764357
you can see someone in that video get a whole lot of tolerance to the head.
 
News story I'm reading says that the actual violence came from people wearing masks.
 
user764357
9:58 AM
They usually are.
 
I hope the cops can clean it up, at least to some degree.
 
user764357
Probably a black flag attempt from Trump supporters, attacking trump supporters.
 
Could be anyone.
 
user764357
Here is someone in a Trump hat being pepper sprayed - twitter.com/janeygak/status/826998516144697344
 
I generally just stay at home.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:04 AM
merciless tolerance to those who disagree
 
 
3 hours later…
2:22 PM
@gnat the intolerance is much more directed towards SE staff, and people that agree with Joel's post, and Kasra, than the ones who make big claims like "They're calling us Nazis".
@gnat oh wait, I totally missed the preceding messages context there
 
2:39 PM
The intolerance isn't towards specific people, but towards having this discussion on Meta.
 
@gnat I think that concept is snapping slowly
people are less and less willing to tolerate intolerance. It gets real scary by now, hearing calls to armed insurrection against political opponents from the left on various sites
 
@Magisch "all good people should unite and kill all bad people"
 
@gnat People have forgotten how and why that doesn't work slowly
 
 
2 hours later…
4:39 PM
Trump is a result of people taking a stand against Obama after 8 years. A stand for a stand leads to everyone standing
 
user4639281
5:05 PM
@prusswan Lots of sore legs?
 
5:46 PM
@Shog9 Funny, I could say the same thing for me, and conclude that this executive order is not a real threat.
And that this whole thing is a charade.
 
 
3 hours later…
9:03 PM
@Tunaki Of course, and you might well be right. This is where it helps to talk about this stuff, because otherwise we're all sort of trapped in our own experiences.
I kinda touched on this last night, but... A few years back, someone decided to shoot up one of the local churches near me. More recently, someone shot up a Planned Parenthood just a few miles away from where I was sitting eating lunch, and just a couple blocks away from where my stepdaughter was living.
So... That stuff is very real to me. There's a visceral aspect to it. I know folks who were directly affected; I stood and watched the funeral processions.
For some of you, attacks by foreign terrorists are just as real, just as visceral.
For some of you, attacks both foreign and domestic are probably fresh in mind.
And... For some of you, both are abstract.
And this makes it really difficult to have a broad conversation about policy.
But... I think that's exactly what needs to happen. Because otherwise, we let these attackers divide us, we hand them the victory without even a struggle.
Saturday night, I wasn't online; I was hanging out with family and friends, among them a former soldier who served in Iraq. We heard the news, and he relayed the story of a friend of his, a translator, and the service that was done for our country. For him, that wasn't a stereotype, a caricature of an unknown entity who needed extra "vetting" to be allowed here; it was a person whose service was known, who'd taken risks along side him.
These are just stories, anecdotes, subjective opinions not data... But as humans, it is through such things that we learn to see each other as humans; data is useful in learning to question our biases, but first we must want to question them - and throughout history it is by telling each other stories that we've accomplished this.
 
9:18 PM
@jpmc26 I'm not sure I know you well enough to offer you useful advice yet.
But that's why I've been hanging out here these past few days. You strike me as upset, worried, saddened... And I want to learn why.
I'm also trying to share my understanding of the situation, but please remember that while I do represent the company I don't necessarily speak for anyone but myself.
So you can ask me a "yes or no" question, but I can't necessarily give an honest answer that is either "yes" or "no". I've tried to stress that a bit more in the past couple of days.
If I want to understand you, I need to ask questions, listen to your responses, and push back when I feel you've misunderstood something.
And... I dare say you would need to do the same. Effective communication is not an easy thing at the best of times, and these are not the best of times.
 
user764357
9:51 PM
Can I ask a question
 
You just did
so... It would appear you have that ability
;-P
 
user764357
Har har... I know this game.
 
user764357
May I ask 2 more questions?
 
No.
I kid. As we say in the C# chat room, "Don't ask to ask, it create an infinite chain of recursion".
 
user764357
lol
 
user764357
9:58 PM
Well, given the massive civil unrest in Berkeley, and how important Berkeley has been in the free thought movements, should SO take a stand against the people commiting violence there?
 
Doesn't that need more of a stand than the EO, seeing as how people were assaulted and physically harmed in these protests?
 
user764357
Precicely.
 
10:14 PM
By the way, that user who said they would delete their profile over this (KimberlyBarrass) did so.
 
user764357
Perhaps a general strike is in order?
 
user764357
I find that most of the questions I need answered have already been asked, so why have an account?
 
10:35 PM
@LegoStormtroopr So you can close homework dump questions, of course.
 

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