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3:00 AM
@LegoStormtroopr yeah, I also decline flags that criticize the Steelers, because I'm not a machine and can recognize when something is stupid.
(he said, convincingly)
 
@Luggage If it "can't be the distinction," why does the Be Nice policy say this: " That includes terms that feel personal even when they're applied to posts (like 'lazy', 'ignorant', or 'whiny')." I mean... "immoral," "stupid," and "un-American" are clearly more derisive than those terms.
 
I see this as no different than a shop owner having a sign in his window with, for example, a pro-life message.
 
user764357
I'm just mad because I've hit my breaking point of Silicon Valley tech elites telling me what acceptable politics are. Even if I agree with some of them.
 
Ok, you know I'm not in Silicon Valley, right?
 
user764357
I'm not talking about you.
 
3:01 AM
Good.
 
Ignore them.
 
user764357
I'm talking about The numberous anti-Trump CEOs
 
Yeah, whatever
 
user764357
Silicon Valley or New Yorks Silicon Alley
 
@LegoStormtroopr sounds like a red district cheap name
 
3:02 AM
@jpmc26 I see a distinction there but am trying to formulate it..
 
@Shog9 You haven't answered my question. Would you decline a flag on, "ObamaCare is immoral, unconstitutional, and un-American. It's morally repugnant and plainly stupid."? By a non-mod, non-SO employee, of course.
 
@jpmc26 for one who hasn't cared answering to either me or luggage in the last dozens of minutes, you seem to be quite insistent.
 
I've been insistent for 4 days. =p I just can't reply to everything that fast.
 
Look... I had to watch my friends and family sent to Iraq after 9/11, in spite of precious little evidence of relevance. I'm not a big fan of NYC exceptionalism, especially when it demands blood sacrifice from the rest of the country. But... I also know that the words on the oldest stones in my family cemetery aren't in English. This isn't about left & right.
 
user764357
@Shog9 Its not just yeah whatever. When the general orthodoxy in the tech world is that you have to follow identity politics it becomes draining and you start to wonder if you'll get fired or no-platformed for having wrong-think.
 
3:04 AM
@Shog9 Who is making it about left and right?
 
@jpmc26 sorry, that was directed at @Lego
@jpmc26 Probably, yeah
 
@jpmc26 I agree with you it's a BIT blurry, but only because this isn't a normal topic. Being off-topic on SO put it in a different set of rules than any normal current event opinion normally must abide by.
 
I mean, unless the text was in a meme pic of Obama photoshopped onto a pig or something. Not gonna tie my hands here.
 
except for "unconstitutional". I can't see how that could ever be misinterpreted as being personal.
 
Don't worry. I don't try to pull weasel tricks like that and twist people's words.
 
3:06 AM
I've never failed to be impressed with the creative ways folks on the 'Net find to make benign phrases massively offensive
 
@jpmc26 On your question to Luggage: because Be Nice applies primarily to posts not ideas. (I know that you mention in one of your answers that it also may apply to persons, but in the case we are discussing there is at least one extra level of indirection involved.)pe
 
@Luggage That's ironic since "unconsitutional" is the only word I didn't consider inflammatory.
 
(Apologies for interjecting so abruptely)
 
user764357
@Shog9 can you understand how this identity politics can weigh on people when they stray from the orthodoxy because you have to be very very careful about what you say at all times.
 
@LegoStormtroopr dude, I work in this industry too. I know it's tiring.
 
user764357
3:07 AM
Lest you be no-platformed and exiled by someone with exponentially more twitter followers.
 
@Shog9 Do you think most other mods would decline that flag?
 
user764357
Yeah, it sucks, and now people are getting made about being pent up for so long.
 
@jpmc26 Probably? I don't know, there are like 300-some mods now, I'd have to take a poll or something. But nothing about it strikes me as overtly offensive.
 
Then SO has never been and never will be a safe place for people to disagree.
 
@jpmc26 ???
 
3:09 AM
I'm sorry for thinking SO was better than it is.
 
not with you trying to shut them down for being offended.
But Joel's 'question' WAS off-topic.
 
SO at least guarantees a right to disassociate. Folks get fired for stuff they post on Twitter.
 
@Luggage Yes, because offering alternatives constantly is "shutting people down."
or asking them to be more considerate of their opposition.
 
@jpmc26 I think we should define "safe" here. I mean, internet punch device is not up and running just yet
 
Your argument is that you can't call a policy immoral because it offends. That, right there, takes away a place for people to disagree.
4
 
3:10 AM
@Luggage My answer about Be Nice has an entire 3 paragraph section about how to call something immoral politely.
so you're obviously not really considering what I've said.
 
Call a spade a spade. Just don't call a person a spade.
 
Call me immoral using the method you prescribe.
2
 
@jpmc26 so... how exactly have you not had a place to disagree?
 
user764357
@Luggage It wasn't just calling it immoral, it was jumping straight in and saying "this policy is immoral and unamerican' as if his morality was absolute
 
@Luggage Tell me an opinion you hold that someone is likely to find immoral, and I will do my best to construct an example.
 
3:12 AM
@LegoStormtroopr You don't have to assume that.
 
@LegoStormtroopr very few moral system would support refusing people about to die as morally acceptable.
 
user764357
Calling a policy "immoral and unamerican", you might as well go whole hog and say "and if you agree put on your jackboots you friggin' nazi"
5
 
I think we should euthanize people over 65. (not really).
 
user764357
@FélixGagnon-Grenier how does Trump's policy refuse people about to die
 
Guys, come on. I think Joel's post sucks, too. But stop editing it and getting into rollback wars. Every time you do, the post is rightfully locked. So all you're really doing is locking the post for comments and answers and killing our ability to speak there, and for no actual end effect, because your edits will be rolled back.
5
 
3:13 AM
@LegoStormtroopr immigrants are mostly people fleeing from armed conflicts. I thought that part was clear?
 
user764357
and they have many other countries of to which to flee
 
.. which I don't see as making it any less immoral..
 
hey, this is a meta conversation. No REAL politics. :)
 
@Luggage Thanks. "Killing people based on age is harmful. These people have a lifetime of experience to share with the people around them. Additionally, it ignores the intrinsic value of a person, so it is immoral. At least, that's what I think." I've done my best with this example to follow the advice I laid out in my answer.
 
Rob
Coming from someone outside the US, seeing 'unamerican' as an insulting phrase is quite humorous
4
 
3:15 AM
What? I'm immoral? you think? You go throwing around that word and you aren't even sure? :)
 
I think @JasonC's post should be pinned
 
@LegoStormtroopr so... Funny story... I've had folks say the last thing to me a lot
I'd really prefer the former, if you don't mind
 
OK, so you walked the reader through some points before using that word. Meh.
2
not sure what I meant to type when I typed "out"..
 
I mean, shit, I got to wake up on Monday to someone telling me I must not have any friends... Because I was encouraging anonymous downvoting.
FFS, just tell me you don't like anon downvotes.
 
@Luggage throughout?
 
3:17 AM
As I said, it's a line that would have to be crossed very carefully, and if you doubt your ability to do so (or of your readers to accept it, frankly), it shouldn't be crossed at all.
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier seems reasonable.
 
At least I can point to that post and say, "I did everything I could to show respect in my readers in the process." And if someone edited it out, I wouldn't complain.
 
I concede your argument, almost. But I think your sensitivity slider is too high.
 
@jpmc26 "At least, that's what I think" might make sense other contexts, but it definitely doesn't make sense in a political statement/call to action aimed at a broad audience.
 
If you're the CEO and you're using your power to push your political opinion in a public forum to be read by thousands or millions of people, you have a responsibility to set your sensitivity slider very high.
Particularly if it's an emotionally charged issue to begin with.
 
3:20 AM
meta.stackoverflow is not exactly like posting on the side of a building.
 
which, if you don't think this one is, go read Karsa's post.
 
@jpmc26 I can agree with you on a lot of things, but my head aches at the word "forum".
2
 
@zondo Venue?
 
@Shog9 Aw it's OK. We know you really do have friends. All those... cats and stuff. They totally count as friends!
 
@Tanner Say forum again. Say forum again, I dare you, I double dare you (censored), say forum one more (censored) time! :p — Jon Clements ♦ Jan 18 at 12:07
 
3:21 AM
@JasonC I only need one friend.
user image
2
 
I've crunched the numbers, and cats are equivalent to friends at a ratio of 5:1
 
I have agreed with very little of @jpmc26 but I enjoyed the cordial conversation. I should go sleep, though.
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier WHAT DOES JOEL SPOLSKY LOOK LIKE?
 
huehue
@Shog9 perfect. there's even a band aid on said thumb
 
3:23 AM
@CalebBrinkman In that case I've got 10 friends in my bed right now.
 
50 cats?
that sure is a big bed
 
That's a LOT cats
 
I think Jason thought the 5 was people.
 
orly.jpg :D
 
stacked like cordwood
 
3:25 AM
ok, the last few minutes have been proof. cats will solve anything. Now back to the pitchforks
 
@Shog9 I thought SO wanted to be a place where people with unpopular views could come and share them, and expect to be welcomed in and have people actually try to convince them of something, and listening when they try to convince back. Instead of throwing words that render any work they've put into reasoning it out moot. But I was wrong.
 
aww c'mon now, that "but I was wrong" line is older than my grandmother.
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier Wait. Is it 5:1 cats:friends or friends:cats...
 
@JasonC it's a mystery!
tbh I took it as the former
 
Sounds like I should buy a bigger bed.
 
3:30 AM
@jpmc26 no, wait, you're almost right there
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier And I thought it was a place where making fun of people wasn't welcome, either.
Shog, it doesn't matter. It's clear. SO isn't what I thought it was.
If Joel's post is acceptable or encouraged, then it's not what I just described.
 
@jpmc26 So, in theory, my job involves trying to make the site welcoming to new users
 
@JasonC cats:friends. This was determined when I realized that living with five cats is exactly as much of a joy/inconvenience as living with one friend
 
(I suck at that job, but let's ignore that for the moment)
 
@jpmc26 ... wait, you took offense in what I've said? sigh, I thought we had developed a bond with the cats. seems I was wrong.
 
3:31 AM
The problem is, folks get all twisted up when their ideas aren't welcomed
It's deleted now, but there was a big long discussion of this on a recent blog post
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier No, I didn't take offense. But it did feel like being kicked while I was already down. I chose the phrase because it was accurate, nothing more.
 
(the instigator emailed us, and I patiently explained things, at which point she deleted her posts, so... Nothing I can do there, sorry)
 
@Shog9 How can I discuss my unpopular views if my ideas are unwelcome?
 
@jpmc26 See, I though SO wanted to be an online community for programmers to learn, share their knowledge, and advance their careers. At least that's what the about page said.
 
@jpmc26 you post 'em and suck it up and learn.
 
3:32 AM
@jpmc26 well, please accept this as a honest, if clumsy, try at helping you back up
 
Granted, that's a really hard sell
 
@JasonC True. I'm mostly referring to Chat.
@Shog9 Yeah, see, Shog, not being willing to listen to someone because you don't accept their ideas is exactly what makes our current political climate so toxic.
Thinking it's okay to shout people down.
 
@jpmc26 it's just that this way of phrasing, and effectively emotionnally manipulating people, even if not the intention, does feel well passed it's golden age
 
Thinking it's okay to act like whatever they're thinking is so stupid you shouldn't have to educate them about it.
 
@jpmc26 I feel like those are two subtly different things
But regardless, I'm talking about a third thing: listening, but still disagreeing
which, I feel, isn't done enough
 
3:35 AM
Somewhat. "shouting down" necessarily has the other as a per-requisite, I think.
 
but is still critically important
 
And all I've been saying all along is that Joel's post doesn't do that.
He can disagree. That's fine.
hopefully, most of us are rational and willing to accept that not everyone has to agree with us.
but when you start off and close off with the language Joel uses, you're saying, "Your opinion is so invalid I don't need to listen to it."
 
Would it help anyone to know that the answers and (some) comments (there are a LOT) have been read, and discussed, and chewed on, and in some cases responded to... Internally? By pretty much everyone from the company who has posted?
Obviously, it means more when there's a response to everything... But, that's hard to do.
 
@Shog9 So there's a thing I think maybe you aren't quite fully acknowledging. It's possible that this is more of a thing in places like NYC than elsewhere. Consider this pre chat move comment:
2 days ago, by Litty
@JasonC Alienation is one benefit of this announcement. This is not your typical politics; We're dealing with a sudden, gigantic, arbitrary violation of human rights that directly affects the users of this worldwide community. Good riddance to the unsympathetic users that leave as a result of this stand.
 
A little, but if protecting the community from being divided isn't enough of a top priority to actually do something with the post other than leave it in as Joel posted it, then not much.
 
3:39 AM
@jpmc26 wait. you seem to think that deleting the post would magically reunite everyone?
 
That is the consistent attitude that we see in real life surrounding this topic. Good riddance to you, you opponent of my idea. And that carries into Joel's post. That's the problem there. All these implicit shut downs come from the real life climate were in.
 
@jpmc26 ok, that is a priority, but not top priority. Not to trivialize it, but I'm pretty sure I've caused some division in the community with literally everything I've ever posted, including commentary on keyboard shortcuts.
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier No, but it's absolutely a great first step.
It's very powerful to say, "I was wrong. Let me fix this."
 
(not joking, I got two... unamused... comments over the weekend on two different posts regarding keyboard shortcuts. NO clue where/why that came up.)
 
@jpmc26 ... and what of all the people that do agree, and want the post to stay there?
 
3:40 AM
or it is to me when I see it.
 
@Shog9 not really. Being told im immoral, unconstitutional and a nazi for political beliefs needs a lot more than internal discussion
 
@BenCraig ok, who called you a nazi? Flag plz
 
@BenCraig you have not been called that.
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier If their reason for wanting it there is to bring attention to an issue they feel is important, why wouldn't 1. a more considerate post, or 2. a pinned blog post work for them?
 
It doesn't matter if, in an ideal world, unwelcome ideas and unwelcome people are different concepts. In reality, for this particular topic, they're the same. If that makes sense. But it's getting late and I'm getting into that mode where I can't put words together right any more.
 
3:40 AM
(I haven't made it back to meta in a few hours 'cause I've been eating / here, so if you've already flagged my apologies I'll get to it shortly)
 
@JasonC s/they're the same/they're perceived the same
they still aren't
 
@JasonC that really how shit is in NYC these days?
 
Well. Not the same, or even perceived the same, poor word choice. But one implies the other.
 
Glad I haven't been back in a few years.
 
@jpmc26 I don't know. My argument was more about the feeling I get from some posts sthat deleting the post would somehow reunite everyone. If, indeed, there have been a dividing motion, deleting the post will absolutely not mend that.
 
3:43 AM
@Shog9 You have a point. But if the top SO staff can't stay away from being divisive, it's pretty hard to expect the community to have even a modest amount of empathy for each other, don't you think?
 
Do you know how many times I've expressed a view supporting trump, not even that passionately, and ended up being e.g. Immediately blocked by a long time friend on Facebook? It's super screwed up.
 
@JasonC Ah. Well.
Facebook is another place I'm glad I haven't been back to in a few years.
 
Oh man. Keep. Staying away.
 
(and... Most of my contacts are probably Trumps supporters, so... Still glad to avoid the drama)
 
My nyc circle of friends on Facebook are oooooouuuttttt of control lately.
 
3:44 AM
Funny thing is, I see a lot of this on Twitter, which I only use because it's occasionally useful to have an active account for this job.
 
Note that 98% of my fb friends are my real life friends. So the animosity is surprising, hurtful, and carries into real life.
 
oh, shit, that reminds me, I need to call my sister.
Back in a bit.
 
@JasonC So what you are saying is that the post in itself is not disrespectful, but it was insensitive to post it amidst such an absurdly polarised political environment?
 
If you support Trump, in nyc, you are straight up not welcome here. It's nuts. Now, I'll admit, it's settled down a bit since November. People aren't punching Trump voters in coffee shops any more. But that's where I'm coming from with my feelings on Joel's post.
 
@JasonC I don't want to throw oil on that fire, but surely you've noticed that Trump's messages are not exactly comprehensible of other viewpoints? Don't you desolate yourself on how he is doing the same as your friends, blocking people quickly and irrationately?
 
3:47 AM
@FélixGagnon-Grenier Yes. I have a huge problem with Trumps tendency to do that.
 
so... you still support him, but not your friends?
 
user764357
@JasonC People were punching Trump supporters!?
 
Why do I have to make a choice between Trump and my friends?
 
I'd rather you don't
sorry if I expressed otherwise somehow
But I do understand from what you say that you support Trump's actions, but not your friends who act the same
 
I might have misread your "so you still" sentence, I can see two ways to interpret it.
 
3:49 AM
I think I should delete this comment. It goes well over many lines. The only thing is I feel kind of bad deleting something because I feel like it decreases my transparency.
I think it's telling how posts that ignore the political issue vs. posts that actively support the issue (even if they ultimately say the post should be removed) are treated here. It shows that the voting is motivated not by the rules or health of the site, but by the political opinions themselves. It gives evidence that the dissenting opinion is unwelcome here, and it proves the SO community isn't as "open" as Joel thinks it is. — jpmc26 2 days ago
Thoughts, opinions on whether I should?
 
I have trouble understanding which posts are which, tbh
 
BACk
 
And tbh, being somewhat in agreement with Joel's post, and the view that the policy is unnaceptable, I really do not understand how anyone can think the opposing viewpoint is not having it's fair share of visibility
 
@JasonC That's... hilarious
(good grief, my spelling is terrible)
Out here, Trump is like... Mister NYC
 
had a bit too much user bite remedy?
 
3:52 AM
yes, probably
@jpmc26 wee bit passive-aggressive, but maybe instead of deleting you could just... I donno, post a comment that's less... passive?
 
Too late. Gone.
 
oh.
 
It isn't just passive-aggressive. It was insulting. And frankly, it ended up being untrue.
Weekend voting was weird, though. Monday voters strongly supported removing the thing much more than over the weekend.
All my posts were near zero score on Sunday.
 
that's parents getting back to work for ya
 
Weekend == hard-core users (and, by the tail end, far-east Europeans). Monday == Super Serious SO-Is-My-Job
 
3:57 AM
@Shog9 Can we expect a simialr tone to this post going forward?
 
@jpmc26 please use reply? I keep having to guess at the context for your pings.
 
(note that, "It depends on the issues," is a yes.)
sorry. I don't like using the mouse. lol. I'll try to remember.
 
Even if you don't have the script installed, there's a little arrow you can click on.
 
that said, this one doesn't really have a context. it was just a question out of the blue.
 
frantically scrolls up for the userscript
 
3:58 AM
Then... I'm lost
 
other than the fact SO staff/mods have said more political stuff is coming.
 
@jpmc26 well, I mean... This is hardly the first "political" thing
 
I can only think of one other one, and its tone was far less attacking. (Which isn't surprising since it was about something Joel agreed with.)
 
I don't mean this as a humblebrag, but... SO has gotten really big
Not "big" like "number of employees" or "GDP comparable to a country", but... Big as in "lots of users in lots of places"
Which means we're kinda starting to bump up against things we'd have preferred to avoid in the past.
It'd be nice if we could pretend those aren't "politics", but... Sometimes they are
 
I came here to lurk and not to post, but I feel this needs to be said: the civility of this conversation, and the fairness with which you guys are discussing such a heated topic has been encouraging. Joel's post, and the followup comments and answers - from those on both sides - had me wondering about the compassion in the community. But this chat absolutely proves such a concern was unfounded. (Sorry to interject - will return to lurking.)
5
 
4:01 AM
oh, I thought of one more. so 3 total I know of.
 
@Shog9 Lol whaaaaat. Oh man they hate him here. Well ok, to be fair I only have a view of my bubble, the younger hipster areas of Bk and Manhattan, the young LGBT crowd, etc. I have no idea how they feel about Trump out in like LI or the outskirts of Brooklyn, but, were like protest central here. Clinton supporters holding protests and throwing molotov cocktails at cops and crap. It was retarded. These are all the same people that were out going nuts for occupy too.
 
But specifically, I was asking if we can expect posts with the tone of this post, that is, with the kind of language and approach that I've been objecting to.
 
@JasonC yeah, no, Trump is NYC in the way the Statue of Liberty is NYC (nevermind it's in Jersey) or The Empire State Building is NYC.
Giuliani sent our boys to war, and Trump is the inside man who's gonna finally give us a voice.
 
Lol. Oh man the protests in front of the Trump towers were out of control.
 
Not sayin' it's accurate, just... That's perception in the hinterlands.
(obviously, I'm generalizing in a totally irresponsible manner here, but screw it I'm not a card-carrying member of the media and they're even more irresponsible anyway)
Also, while I'm on the topic (sorta)... Got a Boulder guy goin' to the Supreme Court!
(wooo! go team!)
 
4:09 AM
The most annoying thing about it is how people here automatically assume you hate him. Like the coffee shops by my house, on their chalkboards out front, wrote things like "we can get through this together" on them after the election. And you go inside and the cashiers just like, "hey are you doing OK? That election was rough." Like it's just implied. How the heck are you supposed to say "Actually I'm all right with this" after walking into a place like that, lol.
Lol Boulder reperzent. I was there a few months ago doing some art install at the Biotech building on some new university campus or something.
 
@Shog9 Could you pin this message? chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/35391904#35391904 It gives a link to the full text of the order.
 
Anyways it's bed time. I can't the sentence make them more. Later.
 
@jpmc26 oh good grief, IT REDIRECTS TO A SPLASH PAGE
 
yeah. I saw that.
 
second time it works. Bizarre.
 
4:11 AM
worse. you have to click the link again because the splash page doesn't go to next location right.
seems like they're checking a cookie or something. not good design, obviously.
if you can find a better link, go for it. just thought the full text of the order was something good to have readily available for everyone.
 
@jpmc26 yeah, that's the wrong order anyway
that's the "Mexican wall" order
sorry I'm tired, gimme a minute to sanity check
 
looks like it. maybe I'm remembering the context of that conversation wrong.
I think so. "Sec. 3. Suspension of Issuance of Visas and Other Immigration Benefits to Nationals of Countries of Particular Concern."
 
I just added a link to the meta post, that's probably more efficient here
(I meant to do that earlier, got sidetracked. Good lord, too many tabs)
OH HEY!
@BenCraig, Finally saw your flag!
I think "nazi" is a misinterpretation here
(you around still? Sorry it took me so long)
anyway, I know what you're talking about now, ping me when you get a chance
 
good night everyone.
 
gn
so I actually just now read the actual text of the executive order.
 
4:29 AM
heh
Don't worry, I'm guessing you're still ahead of the new AG
...and on that (unnecessarily rude) note, I'm off to bed before I actually insult anyone here
Cheers, folks
 
cheers! gn
 
4:50 AM
@Shog9 I am back - was playing megaman
ah but you're not. Perhaps tomorrow
 
@BenCraig I... should be gone. But I'm gonna have too much stuff on my plate tomorrow to let this slide. Lemme see if I can provide a good interpretation here
Kasra's saying, simply, don't ignore folks in trouble hoping that the threat is less real than it seems. There's... A bad precedent for that.
(more than one, to be honest... But he has a particularly familiar example)
I got photos of family in Germany back in the day. Standing outside their bombed out homes. They hoped things weren't as bad as they seemed. They were worse.
They weren't Nazis. They were just folks who were... Too optimistic.
Don't be an optimist. They're more often disappointed than they are right.
Anyway, hope that helps. If not... I'll be back around eventually. Gotta close my eyes now.
 
user4639281
5:11 AM
@shog whenever you get back, would you mind informing me of what rule or policy I violated which required immediate suspension without warning?
 
@jpmc26 There are two entirely related orders on the issue, I accidentally linked one that was less applicable (but led to the second).
 
5:42 AM
@Shog9 I do have one question that I haven't seen an answer for. Explanations about Joel's post include that "discussion" was important to him. What kind of discussion did he expect? Did he want people to counter his point, or did he just want people to respond about taking a stand?
...I'll say before you bother responding that:
If the former, I don't understand why he took a tone that supporters are so likely to react negatively to.
If the latter, then doesn't that intentionally exclude the opposing view?
I know an answer won't change anything, but I would like one.
 
@jpmc26 Unfortunately, the thing about most people and their political opinion is that it's supposed to disregard the opposing view: people tend to want to see opinions that line up with their own.
 
 
3 hours later…
8:18 AM
86
Q: Please do not use Stack Overflow to promote social causes

Factor MysticI am completely uninterested in being badgered about social causes when I visit a site for expertise. I literally do not care what the cause is. I don't care which political groups support it even if those are the same as political groups I personally agree with, and I am disinclined to spend tim...

^^^ related discussion at MSE. Maybe a bit obsolete - now that folks figured a way to counter this with flood of hundreds close votes, the whole genre seems to be at risk
5
A: Has our policy towards political discussions on SE sites changed?

Tim PostWe need to be able to engage with you on our own platform when we feel that there's something important to say. That includes: Announcements about ways that Stack Overflow / Stack Exchange is changing or growing as a product, Notices of job openings that are very difficult for us to fill, or ...

^^^ official follow up round 2 - this time at MSE
 
Hey, I just wanted to pop in and say that I'm busy reading through the room's messages. I'm on "UTC Today" already, but that still leaves thousands of messages. But I'll try to catch up tonight.
 
Oke @Tiger :)
> If you agree that Trump's decision is immoral and want to share your opinion, feel free to answer or comment on that question like many other people have already done, since the CEO decided that this issue is serious enough to be discussed on Stack Exchange. And if you agree but can't think about any good answer or comment, upvote it. That's what I did. (taken from this answer)
What if one doesn't agree, and still wants to share his opinion?
 
8:36 AM
@Seth the author of that post is not in any representing SE's viewpoint, neither are they citing any official source for that particular passage.
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier Did I say that? I don't think I did.
 
that being said, just do like all the other people have done already, add an answer if you feel you must, or comment on the already existing posts
 
I have.
:p
 
so what was your question?
 
This excerpt (^) is taken from an answer to the recent MSE question regarding the possibly changed policy towards questions etc. related to social issues.
 
8:37 AM
I understand that, yes.
 
Good.
Then you might get why I posted that excerpt in here?
 
not at all. I have clearly answered your comment, and am starting to think you only want to argue in circle. if you have something to say, please say it clearly.
 
Far be it from the to want to argue about that. I just think it's note-worthy that the top-answer to that MSE question basically states that you're free to answer & comment if you agree with Trump's decision being immoral.
Which is - again - just something in the lines of "chant along".
 
So basically, you mean that by omitting that about the people opposing that view, they are... what, discriminating?
also... 7 upvotes?
 
And I still don't get what the purpose or intent of Joel's 'question'/rant was now. Was ist to promote awareness? To blow off steam? To start a discussion? Because all of those 3 motives - and more - were mentioned as possible motives, yet we still have no clarity about what the initial cause was.
16*
 
8:44 AM
a net score of 7. "most upvoted post" is a bit weak here.
 
Meh, if you say so.
@FélixGagnon-Grenier Nah. I don't play that card.
 
and, if you want to discuss with the OP, you should do so on their post, don't you think?
@Seth good to know
 
I could do that :) But I also wanted & did post it in here, maybe hoping to get something going (like a discussion, an actual discussion) at which's end we'd have something like a clear motive.
 
a clear Joel's motive? I don't think anyone but Joel can answer to that...
 
Welp, I'd like to hear his motives on that. Still I believe that a discussion about potential motives could help shed a bit of light on that topic.
Because I simply do not get the motive right now, and that's frustrating.
 
8:52 AM
Well, by reading the post, the motive I can make of it is to try and prevent a very dark time for many people of this planet, that are tied to the actions of a very controversial president, by having us, as a community, try and speak out against such actions.
 
But wtf is speaking out supposed to do?
He's been elected.
He is one of the most powerful presidents in the history of the US
 
All 3 of the fundamental whatever-the-hell-you-call-it are in the hands of the republicans
What is speaking out supposed to do in this case?
Do you expect him to go cry in a corner & undo all he did?
That's not how this world works, worked, or ever will work.
 
make people realize what is happening. if millions of people oppose them, even people from his own party will start reconsidering their actions.
 
Tbh, I think most people that initially supported him will keep doing so.
 
8:55 AM
@Seth I would totally challenge you on that. women's condition (far from ideal, rest assured, but still a long way from what it was) are much better because courageous women have stand up and spoken out about things that are unnaceptable.
 
Also they won't change their mind about the decision they made (hillary v. trump) unless Trump starts to do something truly gruesome (Genocide-level).
 
Black people's condition, have been changed by people speaking out loud about reality
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier Yes. There were truly courageous, brave women in history, who were the cause of women's conditions drastically improving.
 
I mean, speaking out loud is the starting point of change.
 
And now look at what you have.
You have 50% that are focussed on the goal.
The goal being to reach equality in every single aspect of life.
 
8:57 AM
ffs, what have I done
 
And then you have 50% that are just completely blind.
Yes, good question.
 
ok, let's totally not get into that
 
I agree.
Aight, short version
I agree with you on the points that things changed due to people speaking up
But - and that's where I am unsure - do you truly expect something like that to work out in this situation?
I mean, hasn't speaking out lost its value?
All those anti-trump-demonstrations.
 
tbh, I don't think the situation looked any brighter for the aforementioned causes...
 
He still got inaugurated.
Meh =/
 
9:00 AM
tb even more h, I don't know about this. we are all getting mixed feelings. I hope we can find common ground about how to position ourselves. Millions of people, across many countries, speaking out as one voice, gotta have an effect.
 
I think Trump would only possibly be actually "challenged" in his decision if his supporters & his party would step back, and speak out.
I mean, he got elected on the premise of doing exactly what he's doing now.
So he most likely feels a heavy obligation towards fulfilling those promises he gave.
He's a weird president, he seems to care about what he said before he got elected.
Doesn't make it any easier to get him to change his mind.
 
 
1 hour later…
10:22 AM
@Seth he sticks to what he promised... as probably the first president ever to do that. If he gets levered out of the presidency for keeping his promise I'm going to a eat a broom or two :)
 
If he should get levered out, Mike Pence will become POTUS. =)
That'll be fun.
 
10:42 AM
That will be boring..
 
I can't understand the closing reason: the help center specifies that meta is also fo "Stack Overflow the company to communicate with the community (soliciting feedback on new ideas or features, or discussing policies that affect the whole network)"
 
@MarioTrucco We have reached about 170 close and 80 reopen flags, this is just back and forth bitchery
 
@MarioTrucco Unfortunately, Joel's post was neither soliciting feedback nor discussing anything. He just simply states his opinion on the matter. Hairboat has edited the question and tried to coerce it into a question that is suitable for meta SO, but it's still questionable.
 
^^ So should you want to answer, just wait some time, will be reopened soon.
 
... other frequent arguments are that this post is an example for American exceptionalism because Joel apparently supports the view that whatever happens in a single country (the US) justifies breaking the rules of the site.
3
... and that it actually demonizes people who disagree with Joel's political views, in the sense of: "if you are not for free borders, you are not human!"
3
@MarioTrucco (just trying to summarize for you countless hours of discussion in this chat room)
 
10:55 AM
@MathiasMüller Thanks. We usually decide based on the last version of a question. And, If the post promotes American Exceptionalism people can downvote it, but it's not off-topic
 
@MarioTrucco "If the post promotes American Exceptionalism people can downvote it, but it's not off-topic" - why would that be a reason for downvoting, but not closing? Who said that? You?
I find it a very compelling reason for closing
 
@MathiasMüller The post is within the scopes defined in the help center. You may try to find other closing reasons, but not off-topic
 
@MarioTrucco Well, we tried nuking it :)
 
11:27 AM
The edited question seems a bit clumsy now. It's Joel's original statement with all the gazillion views and votes, but edited to include someone else's question. I feel that might be better as a new question rather than make such big changes to such a well-viewed, highly-voted & answered quesiotn?
 
It was no question prior to the edit.
It was merely a stain.
The edit actually enables us to answer it. Beforehand we were just playing the guessing game.
Also, I do think that the edit is in line with Joel, I don't think someone would actually deviate the meaning that much without communicating with Joel first.
 
That's not particularly helpful but to take your point, any answers and the edit are 'stained' by the original. All those highly voted answers pre-date the major edit, many people have seem the oriignal and answered, and won't see the edit, etc
Why not a simple "what does the SE community think about Trump's policies and how should we react to them" question?
 
@Mr.Boy Mh, kind of, the thing is that the edit only added a new paragraph.
Meaning that the answers existing pre-edit will simply adress only half of the question.
It's "okay" imo. It's not like they spent any thought on sticking to the format beforehand, why should they now.
 
I edited my answer, but it doesn't answer the new questions (due to lack of time right now). If the edits were part of the original question, I would have had less of a problem with it. I hope that staff has learned something here. Mainly that if they want us to discuss something, they should actually present questions or points to discuss rather than a shoving a rant up.
 
Doubt it.
 
11:36 AM
I don't know if the question of radical edits has ever been discussed network wide, though. I'm a mod on Software Engineering and if a question has answers, making radical edits to a question that actually change the question isn't well accepted by the community. I've used my mod powers to fix stuff like that quickly by rolling back, closing, and commenting that new questions need...well, new questions.
 
Duh.
The timeline of this "post" is a disgrace.
 
If this was an on-topic question on SE, I'd have rolled it back, closed it, and told someone to make a new question. Especially since the new question is, as far as I can tell, valid.
 
It was posted as a rant, no clear question, absolutely rude tone, embarassing performance by the CEO.
And off-topic for MSO, as - again - it was no question.
So, basically, every single rule applicable to that post was broken :)
Because rules are only good as long as they're not hindering the one who set them up.
 
I don't think we have rules about the CEO giving an embarrassing performance.
But yes, I agree
 
Oh, ye, sorry :P That was an addition, concluding the previous missteps.
 
11:39 AM
It's a little less problematic on Meta, since there's no reputation involved. But anyone reading that question now who hasn't seen it since day 1 will be confused.
 
I am reading it since day 1 and I am confused =/ But yes, the structure will be very confusing now.
Ah well.
The thread couldn't get any worse anyway.
 
Please, no one accept that challenge.
 
>.< Oh oh
I mean it could surely get worse. But this is already far, far below of what I expected of the CEO and the employees of SO (who - probably - didn't really have a say in the matter).
What do the stakeholders say to that debacle? Investors?
What do people from other communities say (if they've even noticed it)
 

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