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12:00 AM
OK thanks for info @Shog.
 
(which admittedly accomplished very little beyond goading Jeff into a bit of trolling)
 
Heh. You know it's funny. I totally remember that post now. I actually did notice it. And I didn't contribute to it. So I have to admit to being at least part of the problem.
 
sniff That's... That's all I ever wanted.
 
ok, wife's finally ready to eat. Off to find a burger.
 
12:04 AM
Later
 
@Shog9 cannibal
I was going to leave a comment that how sad it is that here we are, aggreeing how bad the situation is, but arguing whether talking about the badness on MSO is good or not. Then I didn't leave a comment because I figured I'd be the umpteenth person to do so. But now I'm reading along and I'm surprised that a bunch of people disagree with the badness itself
 
Some disagree with the disagreement over whether disagreeing is implictly agreeing.
 
I'm not sure I agree with that...
 
@AndrasDeak I'm also reading along and I'm pretty sure most people in here agree that the situation is bad. What makes you think otherwise?
 
20 mins ago, by Jason C
Right, as an Dutch citizen who does not oppose Trump's decree (but does think it should have been executed with more care), I feel like I'm being treated as a second-class human. The USA is always great and brings freedom and regime change around the world, but when a new president is elected and the elite doesn't like it apparently the world is too small. His (Joel's) post only enrages me to the point where I have to ask myself how far I have been radicalized over the recent years. Joel's elitist attitude is simply dangerous. — Stephan Bijzitter 2 hours ago
"a bunch" was an extrapolation from the 1 comment I saw after 20 seconds of entering this room
 
12:17 AM
I thought by "bad situation" you meant SO going haywire right now. Do you actually mean US borders?
 
oh, I thought that was clear, sorry:D
the shitstorminess of the shitstorm is evident
 
user4639281
Keep in mind that Trump is not the first president to do exactly this, and the last one was Obama
 
Well. I'd also like to keep in mind that Trump is not President of The World. Eh :)
 
@Tunaki how typical
 
I'm not sure why you're surprised that there are people who don't think the situation is bad. I mean, realistically, roughly half the US supported Trump in the election. And the vast majority of the world is neither affected by our immigration policies nor cares. And also aside from a few people in rough situations it's way too early to make any sort of clear assessment of problems that result from the executive order.
 
user4639281
12:20 AM
The only reason it is a shitstorm is because it was Trump that did it.
 
I mean, to be fair, at least give the administration a few days to fix some of the stupidity of their implementation. They've already made a few needed clarifications.
Then get mad, in like a month, when the final form is in place and the actual effects are observable.
 
user4639281
@JasonC Keep in mind that they were clarifying misrepresentations of the executive order
 
Yeah
 
user4639281
The executive order itself has not been clarified, it is fairly clear. They were clarifying the fake news that started this whole shitstorm
 
@JasonC I'm a bit surprised at the "bunch of" part, but mostly because I tend to assume that others here have a similar mindset to mine (which I know for a fact is not the case, but whatever:P)
 
12:23 AM
Yeah, I can see that.
 
user764357
>Open immigration policy is one way to strengthen a peaceful global community... What can we do to protect these and other freedoms?

Woah. Now StackOverflow is dictating what we (the tech community) should do regarding a contentious political issue? We must support open immigration. What happens if we don't support that view?
 
@TinyGiant I think a huge part of the shitstorminess is the timing of the order. As in "OK guys, shit's going down as of now". But this is just a vague guess, I don't have any perspective on the matter.
 
user4639281
@AndrasDeak When Obama did it the effect was similarly immediate
 
@AndrasDeak Well keep in mind that there is almost no good "time" for Trump to do anything. We've got half a nation of really angry people who are at the ready to flip out at every move he makes (I don't mean "flip out" to be condescending, I just don't know another phrase for it). I mean, you kind of have to admit that people love to hate him and his administration.
Everything he does is literally doomed to become a shitstorm because of all the negativity that's been put in place in the last year.
 
user4639281
The shitstorm was caused by the fact that the american media is hyperbolizing everything that happens.
 
12:26 AM
That too.
 
@JasonC right
 
You can even remove american in that sentence @Tiny
 
user4639281
@Tunaki Well every non-american media agency involved in hyperbolizing current american events is actually just paroting the american media.
 
I mean like, the stuff the Bush administration did with Homeland Security, and the anti-Muslim prejudice they fostered in this country, was imho so much worse. And while people were upset, they weren't nearly as knee-jerk upset as they are with Trump. A lot of that was 9/11 shock, so it's hard to compare. But Trump can barely breath without sparking a protest.
 
Ah maybe that's true yes.
 
user4639281
12:28 AM
So I don't think that repeating what you've been told can count as an offense in this case.
 
@TinyGiant Kinda OT but I sort of count that as an offense, at least if you claim to be a news agency. Responsible journalism died decades ago.
 
@Shog9 chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/35411423#35411423 I'm sorry, but how does dividing the SO community by disrespecting an entire class of people with a different political view help us address any problem related to SO? Especially when SO is supposedly founded on not doing that to people?
 
user764357
Left: rallies against TPP.
Trump: cancels TPP.
Left: "WTF Trump? we love TPP"
 
Pretty much.
 
user4639281
Keep in mind that I'm not advocating for Trump or anything that Trump is done. I think that Trump is a vile human being and he should never hold office. What I'm advocating for is knowledgeable, understanding, respectful, and constructive discussion on the topic... as well as complete and immediate removal of the meta post.
 
12:31 AM
Exactly my thoughts, the edits didn't improve the post much:

http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/342440/time-to-take-a-stand#comment440819_342440
 
user764357
@MathiasMüller hey thats me :)
 
@TinyGiant Oh also, btw, it's not just media hyperbolization. It's also amplification of that through social media. I've actually found a pretty balanced share of media outlets, but e.g. WaPo is the one that panders to the vocal side and ends up getting all the Facebook shares.
 
at least facebook will only allow real news now, eh?:P
 
user4639281
I consider social media to be part of the media
 
@Shog9 Heck, the Be Nice policy literally says, "If you don't have time to say something politely, just leave it for someone who does." So rushing is no excuse.
2
 
12:35 AM
I hate the wapo so much, lol. "Man farts in public. This comes on the heels of a controversial anti-immigration order by President Trump."
They really have a way with words.
 
@jpmc26 it would work as an explanation (rather than an excuse), if Joel would bother to come back to it and address the concerns of the community
and by "address the concerns" I mostly mean "self-delete"
4
 
@LegoStormtroopr Sorry, didn't see you already quoted it here ... If only someone from SE would actually address spot-on comments like yours :(
 
user764357
haha, I was just happy to be quoted.
 
Note that I completely understand why he posted it, and completely agree with his stance. But only the blind doesn't see what the actual effects are of his good-faith post, and there really isn't any other right choice than to dump that post.
 
user764357
My least favourite hyperbole so far is @KasraRahjerdi saying "Stop pretending I'm not human". No one was doing that, but using such emotional blackmail its impossible to argue against. Eg:
Me: I don't think this immigration policy is so bad
Kasra: Why don't you see me as human?
Me: I do, I just think more vetting isn't so bad
Kasra: Why don't you see my grandma as human?
Crowd: You monster, practically a Nazi, you won't be happy until people are in camps.
 
user4639281
12:39 AM
My meta q from yesterday is finally getting some positive attention.
 
user764357
@TinyGiant link?
 
@TinyGiant Which one?
 
@LegoStormtroopr Heh.
 
user4639281
@MathiasMüller this one
 
@TinyGiant It was in the hot meta list
 
12:43 AM
Oh, Kasra. I can't decide how I feel about those posts, heh. I totally empathize with the guy's general anxiety, and genuinely hope he calms down, but I'm so not down with his constant judging and victim mentality, or his straight up unprofessionalism through this whole thing. We got in a pretty intense and angry comment debate, although we did mutually apologize.
He's hard to stay mad at because I totally get his mental state. But, man.
 
@TinyGiant Saw it a while ago already, btw: nobody ever admitted your edit should not have been rolled back by diamonds?
 
it's sort of all-bets-off on professionalism with that meta post
 
Honestly, if you're literally sitting at your desk crying, the worst thing you can do is drop your feelings into a public forum where a lot of people are going to think it's off-topic or even support the cause of your grief.
 
well, FWIW I'd guess that MSO still has the lowest troll ratio among public fora
 
I don't necessarily have a problem with people expressing their grief in public forums. Just not the public forum you work at.
 
12:46 AM
@AndrasDeak Troll ratio is irrelevant. You don't have to be a troll to think his post is wrong, has no place here, or isn't founded on facts but rather feelings.
I have a sneaking suspicion that him getting upset is what triggered this whole entire thing.
 
Yeah me too.
 
But if that's the case, it's still more Joel's fault than anything.
 
And the fact that Kasra works there is an important point of justification for the actions of SO. It's more straightforward to be devastated by the order (rather than just being professionally outraged) if a co-worker is being hit
 
2 hours ago, by Jason C
You know, if Joel ever decides we're good enough for him to actually have a conversation with, and posts a follow-up, if tries to backtrack out of it with something like an "I posted this on behalf of Kasra" route, I'm gonna throw up.
 
user4639281
@MathiasMüller Diamonds told me it deviated from the intent
 
12:48 AM
@TinyGiant That's ... puzzling.
 
The way to deal with upset people is give them some time off and console them. Maybe suggest or help them get to counseling or clergy or something. Not start posting content that inflames other people.
 
@jpmc26 I know, but where there are trolls, it would be even worse. And I'm not saying it's a good idea (hence "FWIW")
 
user764357
If Joel posted it on behalf of Kasra, how does he feel about the fact he may have alienated other staff of different political persuasions?
 
Given the SO staff response, apparently, none of them care.
 
Heh, speaking of guys at the top who make heavy handed misguided announcements.
 
12:50 AM
Actually, I'm pretty sure SO doesn't employ anybody who's right wing.
 
@jpmc26 considering the strongly inclusionary etc. atmosphere of SO, I wouldn't be surprised
 
I'd never apply there. I know I'd be super uncomfortable all day and worried people would find out and that I'd be fired or ostracized over it.
 
well you don't have to:P
to each his own
and while that works for the company atmosphere, I know that doesn't work for the SO community, it being global and made up of "10M developers"
 
@jpmc26 Well, probably not in their NYC offices at least.
 
I don't, luckily. But on the other hand, they advertise themselves as being "inclusionary," which makes it ironic at the very least.
 
12:52 AM
@jpmc26 That's actually... a big source of my disappointment over this.
 
@jpmc26 I'm pretty sure that Joel didn't think for a second that The Community might disagree with him. So taking a stance would be along the inclusionary path.
 
user764357
@jpmc26 But what about diversity?
 
then there would still be the issue of posting it on MSO
 
It's pretty much my entire source of disappointment. SO has this big policy that's supposed to welcome everyone in, regardless of race, religion, or politics. But when the SO staff gets up in arms about something, all those values go out the window.
 
I'm actually in the midst of changing jobs. And I've been talking about applying to SE for a while (I've had these convos over in the Tavern). And I really admired it as a company. And this whole thing left a huge bad taste in my mouth. I definitely do not share the common NYC political view, and now I'd just feel awkward applying there.
I mean the SE HQ is like a 15 minute subway commute from my apartment. It's been tempting me for a while. To me this whole thing feels... "unappetizing".
 
12:53 AM
It's so ironic that this post about freedom has necessitated more repression by mods than any other question I can think of.
3
 
@AndrasDeak It is not my fault if Joel wrongly thought no one with conservative values uses SE regularly, particularly when their policy explicitly says I'm supposed to be welcome.
 
@jpmc26 when did I say it's your fault?:P
 
IRL, people have been asking me what I'm thinking of doing next, and my response has always been "well, I'd really like to work at Stack Exchange, I've been thinking about applying there".
 
You didn't. Just saying that's only more reason for him to apologize and make it right.
 
I'm saying it's nobody's fault. The fault is in completely ignoring the reaction of the community. It's fine to not expect this; but once the cat's out of the bag, you can't play dumb.
4
 
12:56 AM
I can agree with that. People make mistakes. It's more important to make them right after one was made.
 
Then again I know how rationalization works, so it's not easy. But I'm fairly sure that the voices on meta are loud and clear.
 
It's actually not fine to not expect this. If you're the CEO, and you didn't see this reaction coming to the post you made, I really question whether or not you are the right person to continue sitting in that chair.
 
@JasonC how often have we seen Joel on meta...?
We seem to be confusing being the CEO of a company with being the CEO of a community. Joel might be the CEOest of all the CEOs. This whole controversy is localized to meta and the users that make up SO. It's pretty virtual and non-existent to anybody outside the community.
 
Ehhhhhhhhhhh................... I can see your POV about the CEO's responsibilities, too.
I don't know.
 
@AndrasDeak I'm not sure how often he's been here in the past matters. For all but a couple of months of the company's existence, the political climate was moving in a direction he was more likely to agree with. And staff has said more political stuff is coming.
 
12:59 AM
@JasonC Imho, being a CEO does not mean you are immune to silly decisions. But you should definitely own up to them once you realize.
 
^ That, definitely.
 
Is this exemplary of how they're going to approach it going forward? If it's not, why is so bad to admit this post was a complete goof and wasn't done properly and to address all the problems with it?
 
Owning up to mistakes, definitely. If you're really good, you don't make them in the first place. But we're only humans, and humans make mistakes. What matters is to have to spine to admit your mistakes and try to fix them and avoid them in the future.
 
@jpmc26 Exactly. Why on earth does SE as a company risk half of the SO community losing faith in them, just to defend one single post? Makes no sense.
 
@jpmc26 my point is that it's The Community that has an issue with his post. But if he's not even near MSO, how would he know what the community wants/thinks?
 
1:01 AM
We've even suggested alternative ways of expressing their viewpoint that would be more appropriate. Why not just go back and do that and clean up this mess?
 
The thing is, one thing that is true about CEO's is that public perception of a CEO is intimately tied to public perception of a company. While Joel may not be the CEO of a community, as a good CEO he should have realized the impact his post would have, or at least should have been aware that he wasn't in tune enough to understand its impact, and so should have just stayed quiet.
 
@AndrasDeak If he's not even here, why does it matter if the mods and staff nuke his post?
 
My train of though is admittedly biased by the way Documentation was introduced, and handled on meta...
@jpmc26 because Boss
Boss thinks post is good. Community thinks post is bad, Community wants to nuke post, Boss doesn't think post is bad/doesn't know Community thinks post is bad. Employee protects post.
 
That's exactly what we're saying is the problem thought: a user is exempt from upholding the values of the community, the ones agreed to and encoded as policy by SO staff, because of his position in the company?
2
 
yes.
1 min ago, by Andras Deak
@jpmc26 because Boss
 
1:03 AM
Why can't an SO employee walk up to Joel and say, "Look, your post is dividing the community. We're going to fix it."?
 
In all fairness, though, I suppose we should stay open to the possibility that maybe Joel is being quiet now because he's realized that he doesn't quite understand how he'd be perceived. Which is a good thing. I guess we can't say "Joel should have said nothing" and now say "Joel needs to start talking" without acknowledging this possibility.
 
@jpmc26 we don't know if they did, and if they did: how it went
 
I don't understand how any of this changes anything.
 
@JasonC I think it would be a straightforward damage control step to delete the post, and put a post-it instead that says "sorry, rethinking the matter"
2
 
Yeah, that's true.
I'm just trying to be... fairer. As a personal growth exercise, lol. Bear with me.
 
user764357
1:05 AM
@jpmc26 Haha, really tell the CEO they did a bad political thing. Good link with that.
 
Getting late in my time zone, nice talking to you - because it's reassuring :D. Bye!
 
@LegoStormtroopr Oh I would have absolutely zero problem doing that if I worked there, trust me.
@MathiasMüller Good night.
 
@LegoStormtroopr So SO is actually run by a tyrant who can never be told he's wrong? That makes everything we're upset about even more true.
 
user764357
@MathiasMüller Wait? There are other places besides America?
 
I'm not an old user of the site, but I rarely get the feeling that The Community actually matters. All the bells and whistles that SO have been throwing at us (Documentation, Developer Story, New Top Bar) come across to me as forced, and ignoring initial criticisms, presented as "Look, we did this for you! (TM)"
 
1:06 AM
Zing
 
So I'm not sure why you all keep expecting that a meta outrage is bound to change anything:P
 
@AndrasDeak You're probably right. I always got the impression that Jeff was the real brains behind the success of SO.
 
user764357
@jpmc26 I don't know about that. But I wouldn't tell the CEO (someone with a lot of privilege) their political ideas are wrong. You'd find yourself on the out pretty quickly.
 
@AndrasDeak I will say this: From my experience here, I absolutely believe the community does genuinely matter to some of the individual employees. I see a lot of them chatting in the Tavern, I've been on the sites for... 6ish years, that's just what I've come to observe.
 
@jpmc26 Again, I don't think that the overall happiness of the community is directly related to the income of the company
 
user764357
1:08 AM
"Hey boss, your very vocal political virtue signalling isn't good for business"
"You don't like my politics? You're one of them, one of those Nazis"
 
@JasonC oh, I'm aware of that, and I agree! I'm talking about company-wide influence and feedback...
 
@LegoStormtroopr No, use the wording I mentioned earlier.
(How do I quote a chat message, anyway?)
 
@jpmc26 arrow on the left of it -> permalink
if you only post the link, it oneboxes
 
33 secs ago, by jpmc26
(How do I quote a chat message, anyway?)
^ Like that.
 
6 mins ago, by jpmc26
Why can't an SO employee walk up to Joel and say, "Look, your post is dividing the community. We're going to fix it."?
 
1:09 AM
Lol. Literal much?
 
lol. I'm lost.
 
Sorry, I meant you can get the permalink via the arrow icon:D
 
Drop the "->"
 
but then just post the link
so much for my pseudocode
 
http://chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/35412992#35412992
There you go, lol.
Works with comment links from posts, too.
 
1:10 AM
I was confused because apparently, if you follow it with other text, it doesn't expand.
 
Yeah
 
1 min ago, by Andras Deak
if you only post the link, it oneboxes
 
user764357
http://chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/35413021#35413021

Like this? e: nope :(
 
only replies may precede the link being oneboxed
 
user764357
1 min ago, by Andras Deak
so much for my pseudocode
 
1:11 AM
anything else hinders it
 
user764357
Ah ha!
 
See also the "faq" and "help" links to the bottom right -----\
 
In all cases one-boxing only happens when the only content of your message is the link (and optionally a reply message id at the very start, forgot about that). Many things are one-boxed, questions, answers, comments, chat, twitter, wikipedia, images, but that same rule applies to all of them.
 
51 secs ago, by Andras Deak
only replies may precede the link being oneboxed
and by replies I meant direct message replies in the :msg_id format
btw you should play in room 1:D
 
Heh
If we go off-topic from a political discussion in chat, does that overflow back to "on-topic"?
 
1:14 AM
no, there are many offs to a topic:P
 
Lol
 
I believe in the many-off-topics interpretation of SO chat
 
So... how about those immigrants, eh?
 
there's a topic?
 
user764357
@JasonC No. Its one extra layer of off-topic on the off-topic stack.
 
user764357
1:17 AM
Eg:
Programming -> Politics
Programming -> Politics -> How to use meta
Programming -> Politics -> How to use meta -> off-topic stack example
 
user764357
We need to unwind the stack bit by bit, removing off-topic topics.
 
something something off-topic stack overflow
 
I thought Meta was an appropriate place to ask how to use the site? (lol, "sue" typo)
 
@jpmc26 No, that's probably more for law.stackexchange.com, lol.
Speaking of which, Joel should have left the writing of his post up to this user instead.
 
user4639281
2 days ago, by Sklivvz
Please don't make edits that change the intended meaning of the post. It's up to the OP to change what they mean to say if they want to. — Sklivvz ♦ 46 secs ago
 
1:22 AM
Laptop battery's gonna die, charger is all the way on the other side of the couch. So... later all.
 
#firstworldproblems
take care
 
wat. xD Have a good night.
 
user764357
I just made my first edit to the question. Lets see how long it stays there...
 
why?
 
user4639281
@LegoStormtrooper don't be deviating from the intent now.
 
user764357
1:27 AM
why edit? Because I don't feel Joel has the moral authority to dictate what is or isn't immoral. He can have a feeling one way or the other.
 
The post is clearly only there because Joel was the one posting it. So why would you all be rushing to change his post? It's entirely not public domain, it's very much Joel's own thing.
 
user4639281
@AndrasDeak By that logic no one should ever edit anything
 
no, because Joel has very few posts, the other ones can be touched
I think it's obvious that the regular policies don't apply here.
 
user4639281
I think it's obvious that there is flagrant disregard for the policies if it doesn't suit the management.
 
Instead of pretending to be ignorant, you should just accept that the post in its current form is here to stay. If something stupid or offensive is in it, then it's Joel acting like that.
 
user4639281
1:30 AM
Except Joel hasn't rolled back a single edit.
 
he doesn't need to:P
 
user4639281
I see no logic in your logic
 
who's talking about logic?
I'm talking about human behaviour
 
2 mins ago, by Andras Deak
I think it's obvious that the regular policies don't apply here.
This is exactly what we've been arguing against.
 
@jpmc26 you can, and you should, but that doesn't make it any less true
 
1:31 AM
Not out of some kind of strict duty to the rules, but because it actively harms our community.
 
user4639281
@AndrasDeak Basically you're saying "Instead of <insult> you should give up what you believe in."
 
we can either piss against the gale and get wet, or accept that the post is here to stay and keep criticising it without prolonging edit wars
@TinyGiant not at all, or at least I don't mean to. How do you interpret that?
 
I'm just saying I'm not done yet is all. =p
 
user4639281
> Instead of <pretending to be ignorant>, you should just accept that the post in its current form is here to stay
 
Rob
There's no point in making an edit that was already rolled back. That's just asking for an edit war. Discuss it here, but why deliberately do something that's already been decided is not accepted?
 
user4639281
1:33 AM
So what I believe in is pointless because you don't believe in it?
 
user4639281
@Rob I didn't, that was the lego guy
 
@TinyGiant do you believe that the staff will not roll back any edit made to the post? Because that's the only thing I'm talking about right now.
 
Rob
I know
 
user4639281
@AndrasDeak Of course I believe the staff are showing flagrant disregard for all of the policies I hold dear.
 
so I'm not harming your beliefs, or denying you from them
 
user4639281
1:35 AM
Telling me to give up in what I believe in is doing that yes
 
user4639281
I believe in making the post disappear never to be seen again.
 
@AndrasDeak Look, if you don't wanna keep making a case against it, that's your choice. Some of us still want to actively oppose it for the moment. I get the wisdom in what you're saying; I just don't think it's time yet.
 
I'm only saying that staff will roll it back/undelete/reopen it. So it's wasted effort to keep editing/closing/deleting. If that would happen, it would happen due to the feedback from the community. But surely not feedback in the form of edit wars.
2
 
So telling us you agree with us but that we shouldn't do anything isn't really productive.
 
I asumed that talking is an option:P
 
1:36 AM
that said, I also agree that editing isn't going to accomplish anything.
 
In case you believe that moderation actions are the only way to protest, then I see, I didn't think that
 
Rob
@jpmc26 Starting an edit war isn't productive.
 
=D See my last message. ;) I'm a slow typer. Sorry.
 
Rob
Editing something you know will be reverted isn't productive.
 
So in case, @Tiny, you believe that you can only effect change by editing and closing, by all means please do:)
 
1:38 AM
I guess I just have some misguided hope that someone will see the light and actually go back to the sane policy we had before this weekend.
 
They might, but I don't think an edit war will move that agenda any further
 
No, but you're discouraging more than edits wars.
 
hmm
Well, I don't mean to, so I'm sorry if that's the case
 
at least, that's how I've been interpreting your messages prior to the mention of a new edit.
 
just for the record
3 mins ago, by Andras Deak
I'm only saying that staff will roll it back/undelete/reopen it. So it's wasted effort to keep editing/closing/deleting. If that would happen, it would happen due to the feedback from the community. But surely not feedback in the form of edit wars.
 
1:40 AM
yeah, but
11 mins ago, by Andras Deak
I think it's obvious that the regular policies don't apply here.
stuff like that. =p
 
well, do they?:D
 
our goal is to get us back to the point where there do.
 
But yeah, I can see how my facing the current status quo can be mistaken for settling
 
I'm not sure what I'm going to do at this point.
 
FOOD'D!
four-bean soup instead of a burger. And lots of whiskey. Aww, yeah.
 
1:42 AM
I read that as four-ban soup :|
 
COPIOUS B---E---ANS FOR EVERYONE
 
Shog even has suspensions for dinner.
 
I've been debating waiting until the next political message and seeing if they handle it better, but my confidence in that is very low if mods/staff can't admit that this one was handled badly enough to get the post in compliance with Be Nice.
 
@jpmc26 I suspect so too
 
user4639281
@AndrasDeak It's not wasted effort because it shows the staff how much we disapprove
 
1:43 AM
@TinyGiant does it?
 
@jpmc26 ok, I know you're unlikely to agree here, but I wanna try & hold a line on this: criticizing an idea / policy / etc. is not the same as criticizing a person. You can choose to take it personally, but that's your call.
 
I seriously doubt that, but I finally understand your stance.
 
Saying "criticism is never appropriate because it might offend someone" was never the intent of "be nice" or anything I've written on the subject.
 
user4639281
@AndrasDeak I never said that I could only effect change by closing / editing.
 
user4639281
@AndrasDeak It's the only thing we have
 
1:44 AM
@TinyGiant your above two messages contradict each other:D
 
In fact, I wrote a blog post arguing the exact opposite:
Josh Heyer on August 8, 2012
It’s been a few weeks now since Joel kicked off our “summer of love”. There’ve been some excellent discussions in the blog comments and on Meta, and we’ve tried to present some hard data on how objectively “nice” we are. But it’s high time to talk about what place “niceness” really has on Stack Exchange. And to do that, we need to start by talking about you:
 
user4639281
@AndrasDeak It's the only measurable thing we have
 
@TinyGiant if staff are anything like regular human beings (and this whole controversy goes to show how true that is) would make me think that stubborn banging of your head on big closed doors will only make corporate resistance stronger
 
@Shog9 Do you deny that Joel's posts contain language that "feel[s] personal even when they're applied to [opinions]"?
Note that ideas and opinions are more closely tied to a person than a post is.
 
user4639281
@AndrasDeak MIT license, first iteration, 'nuff sed
 
1:47 AM
@TinyGiant I loosely followed that story. What about it? Did they reconsider because users kept engaging in edit wars?
 
@jpmc26 Look... I don't identify strongly with any political party, and haven't in years... So I'm probably a bit blind to some stuff here.
 
user764357
@Shog9 Calling a policy held by ~50% of the American voting public 'immoral and un-America' is effectively the same as calling those same people immoral and un-American
 
user4639281
@AndrasDeak They reconsidered because the community persistently railed against them on it
 
Maybe if you're like... I donno, super hardcore Trump fan, anything remotely critical that includes the word "Trump" is in essence a personal insult to you, in the way that I can't say anything negative about Green Bay in the presence of a Packers fan without being their worst enemy.
 
I don't identify with a party, either. I'm pretty fed up with Republicans and actively oppose Democrats. But I still have opinions about issues.
 
1:48 AM
OK, I think we're consistently miscommunicating here
 
and I don't even like Trump that much.
I still feel completely dismissed just for being open to the idea that maybe Trump's policy isn't bad.
or heck, for sympathizing with those who believe in it.
 
user4639281
@Shog9 That's right, I'm not calling you morally repugnant, only what you believe in.
 
I don't understand how this isn't obvious.
and I spent about 10-15 paragraphs explaining it and linked you to it just to be sure.
 
@LegoStormtroopr whoa, whoa... That thing I just wrote, that intentionally hyperbolic thing where I equated Trump fans with Packers fans? Don't do that, please. Folks voted for our Dear President, not this executive order. I can criticize the latter without criticizing my next-door neighbor who's had a "Make American Great" sign on his fence for two years now.
I like my neighbor. He's a good guy. I got a broken pressure sprayer off of him for free.
 
@Shog9 Just because they didn't vote specifically for this order doesn't mean they disagree with it.
 
1:51 AM
He doesn't call the cops when we're being loud, he keeps a neat and tidy garden... Good dude.
 
Well, FWIW Trump has been pretty consistent with his pre-election actions and promises. So whoever voted for Trump must have expected something like this. Right?
 
This EO is still bad.
See? Criticize policy not person. ^^^
 
user764357
@Shog9 Thats your opinion yes.
 
The EO being good or bad is irrelevant to whether the post follows Be Nice or not.
 
@jpmc26 you're still missing the point.
 
user4639281
1:52 AM
@Shog9 Saying the policy is a bad policy is different than saying that the policy goes so far beyond being a bad policy that it is actually morally repugnant.
 
"Be nice" is a policy for unnecessary conflict.
Not a rule that dictates All Disagreement Is Bad
The latter would be incredibly poisonous
 
user4639281
@Shog9 Still grossly missing the point, intentionally it seems
 
That's a straw man.
I have emphasized over and over and over that disagreement within the Be Nice policy is fine.
 
@jpmc26 which means... What, exactly?
That I can disagree until someone feels hurt, and then I have to either agree or shut up?
 
user764357
@Shog9 I'm not a super hardcore Trump fan. Don't really like the guy. Can't vote for him because I'm not American. But calling actions immoral is going to get peoples ire.
 
1:54 AM
@LegoStormtroopr Ok, so?
 
@Shog9 Which means Joel can have his opinion. Joel can express his opinion. But if Joel and SO believe the Be Nice policy and other SO polices are actually good for the community, then they should adhere to it.
 
user764357
Call me crazy, but I don't like someone with as much power over me as Joel telling me what my political opinions should be.
 
user764357
Joel (and the SO mods) should check their privilege.
 
user4639281
@Shog9 No, you don't have to shut up, but you also don't have to use language that would cause those that disagree with you to refrain from contributing due to fear of persecution.
 
Calling breaking Windows to lock users out of their own settings gets folks upset. I learned that in my first month on Stack Overflow. Still gonna call a spade a spade. Still not gonna call folks that do this assholes, because that's unnecessary.
 
1:54 AM
A bunch of people feel personally attacked by the wording of the question. So it seems that we're past the "should I remove >magic< from a post if it's offensive to witches" scale of offensiveness
 
(well, not to their faces at least)
 
Don't you understand that this post undermines the Be Nice policy fundamentally by saying it doesn't apply to top level SO execs?
 
@jpmc26 Explain to me how it breaks this. Pretend like I'm two.
 
user764357
@Shog9 Also, I'm curious to know exactly which belief systems I can attack without it being offensive. Lets play a game...
 
@LegoStormtroopr no. STOP.
 
user764357
1:56 AM
Trumps policies are immoral.
 
Be Nice is a set of guidelines based on principles.
 
user4639281
@Shog9 You're just trying to get us to repeat ourselves until we give up, right?
 
user764357
Islam is immoral.
 
I'm NOT ok-ing attacking belief systems.
 
user764357
Feminism is immoral
 
1:56 AM
Your support of Trump is not a belief system.
 
Namely, the principles that, "Respectful , polite discourse makes our community better. Keeping disrespect and unkindness out does, too."
 
user764357
@Shog9 I don't support Trump.
 
@jpmc26 what is this "discourse" you speak of? :P
 
If top level SO staff doesn't actually believe that, why should any of its users?
 
@LegoStormtroopr then it's even less of a belief system.
 
user764357
1:57 AM
Ok, but I can call Trumps policies immoral, yes?
 
Ok, so this is the point where I start to wonder if I've just been wasting my time here for... Years.
 
user764357
Can I call Islamic policies to kill LGBT folks immoral?
 
Lemme tell y'all a story.
@LegoStormtroopr FFS, stop that shite.
 
*flagging Shog for FFS*
 
user4639281
@Shog9 did you tell that to joel?
 
1:58 AM
@AndrasDeak Pretty much any text on SO.
 
user764357
Why? Its not offensive. I'm not even criticising policies. I'm just asking which are ok to critique.
 
You wanna criticize Islamic policy, go to islam.stackexchange.com, jump into chat, and have a conversation with folks who know something about it.
Anyway, Story.
Not quite two years ago, we had this moderator...
 
user4639281
You wanna criticize political policy, go to politics.stackexchange.com, jump into chat, and have a conversation with folks who know something about it.
 
user764357
I don't want to. I just want to know which ideologies are ok to attack publically
 
...or rather, we had this person we had to stop from being a moderator, 'cause he was being super-creepy.
 
1:59 AM
@LegoStormtroopr Is that a loaded question?
 
Anyway, not the point of the story.
 
Shog, I know you like story telling, but I really feel like you're just avoiding answering me directly. If at all possible, I'd like to skip the story. Or at least, put your actual point that comes along with it before the story.
 
Former moderator
 
oops, not that one edited
 

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