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12:00 AM
hmm ... there is this strange thing
you cant get granted asylum, if you have participated in persecution of others based on race, gender or religion or you are deemed to constitute danger to the security of the country
and the latter seems to be quite open for interpretation
which is probably why that order was actually made by Obama
 
The Executive Order was not made by Obama...
Again, alternative facts.
 
:D
 
@Tunaki - Federal courts are part of the Supreme Court. You are talking about Judicial Review, which is a part of the Supreme Court. In other words, the ruling of the order being unconstitutional has already been made.
 
user764357
@4castle Can confirm. Australia has lots of US military bases, some Australians can't even go to such as Pine Gap. Source: Am Australian.
 
now who's avoiding the discussion
 
12:06 AM
@TravisJ Already, when the order was made a couple of days ago? That's fast.
 
@LegoStormtroopr can you just feel the democracy emanating from them, can't you
(queue "bold eagle" sound)
 
@Tunaki - It was fairly obvious. However, you are correct that it takes the Supreme Court's Judicial Review to overturn the order itself, which takes a very long time.
 
user764357
@tereško I've been weary of American miltary expansion before it was hip. Like for the past 20 something years.
 
22 mins ago, by Travis J
It is not surprising that it is easier for you to post memes than have a discussion about why it is wrong to ban refugees from seeking asylum.
6 mins ago, by tereško
you cant get granted asylum, if you have participated in persecution of others based on race, gender or religion or you are deemed to constitute danger to the security of the country
4 mins ago, by Travis J
Again, alternative facts.
was that it?
 
@TravisJ Alright, thanks for info
 
12:09 AM
@tereško - You stated the Executive Order was actually from Obama...
6 mins ago, by tereško
which is probably why that order was actually made by Obama
 
yeah, so fucking what
 
Where else is there to go from that? Clearly just trolling.
 
8 mins ago, by tereško
you cant get granted asylum, if you have participated in persecution of others based on race, gender or religion or you are deemed to constitute danger to the security of the country
go from here
 
Also, you cannot get granted for being a security risk, that is true. To state that every person in an entire country is a security risk is simply inaccurate.
 
user764357
If Obama or the media-left had actually done something to resolve Islamic terrorism over the past 8 years, instead of just sweeping it under the rug and rolling over maybe we wouldn't be here where Trump is banning migration for 90 days.
 
12:12 AM
"what-if"
 
@TravisJ 10% of terror acts committed in January have been in Syria (13 of 138)
 
user764357
If people hadn't rolled over when Islamic extremists went around killing people who draw mean pictures about Mohammed, and actually said you "know what, its ok to critisize all belief systems" instead of granting Islam some special protected status, we'd be in a much different place.
 
13% in Iraq, 6% - Somalia
 
I don't see evidence of people rolling over. Syria is protected by Russia, and therefore the terrorists hiding there were as well.
Look at Iraq's current fight in Mosul, the US is playing a roll there, but due to actual Diplomacy is not the main fighting force. That was left to the civilian population in Syria because the US was not, and still is not, allowed to operate combat missions there.
 
in total at something like 40%+ of all terror acts in January was committed in countries affected by that ban
 
12:16 AM
Highlighting that these are zones of conflict should show you that is where people are fleeing terror.
2
 
2 mins ago, by Travis J
I don't see evidence of people rolling over. Syria is protected by Russia, and therefore the terrorists hiding there were as well.
please, elaborate
only USA can stop terrorism?
(queue the bold eagle again)
 
I am tired of educating you.
3
 
my sensei has abandoned me
 
user764357
12:52 AM
@TravisJ Perhaps if we marry you we can get that education via osmosis?
 
@tereško Fact: 0 number of terrorist acts were committed in Iran, as far as I've been alive (now 24 years). Except the assassination of 4 Physics professors probably related to the nuclear program.
And the absolute majority of the visas issued for Iranians are for graduate students (and tourists). Very few refugees.
Absolutely zero homegrown religious extremist terrorism here in Iran. Actually lower than the US itself.
 
1:12 AM
I'm not sure how the number of "terror acts" committed in the ban countries is relevant. Isn't the whole point is that people there want to come to Western countries to commit terrorist acts?
 
I believe lots of discussions about these issues remain futile because people mostly don't have a clear understanding of what religious terrorism is (Especially Islamic extremism.) and how it's spreading and why it is a really really serious issue now.
@jpmc26 That is exactly the point of my above post. You need to know what is Islamic terrorism and how/why it is spreading.
If the terrorists actually wanted to get into some country (other than their native country) and commit terrorist acts, it was way easier for security organizations to prevent them.
This is not what's happening now.
The native people who actually become terrorist are the main problem.
Religious extremism is a thought. It's basically the that only and only I am right.
a single person with no direct connection to the group leaders (only following their speeches/news on social media) can do an attack independently and spontaneously. This model is especially spreading now.
Religious extremism, once grown somewhere, cannot be controlled by the government. They don't take order from the government (Only from the religious leader.)
A person from virtually every belief system has the potential to become like this;
But wahhabi Islam is explicitly such a belief system.
(ISIS Islam- Saudi government Islam- The Islam thought at the religious schools in the poor rural areas in Pakistan, sponsored mostly by the Saudi government)
 
1:50 AM
The executive order is clearly not about terrorism.
It's about disallowing Muslims from immigrating.
Illegal immigration was a signature issue of Trump's presidential campaign, and his proposed reforms and controversial remarks about this issue have generated headlines. Trump has also expressed support for a variety of "limits on legal immigration and guest-worker visas", including a "pause" on granting green cards, which Trump says will "allow record immigration levels to subside to more moderate historical averages". Trump's proposals regarding H-1B visas have frequently changed throughout his presidential campaign, but as of late July 2016, he appears to oppose the H-1B visa program. Trump...
Perhaps the end goal, once (if) they succeed in banning all Muslims, is to somehow reduce the threat of terrorist attacks.
But it's hard to believe that's what they really want, what with the threat being so negligible in the first place.
 
Yeah; And that it actually doesn't ban the main countries involved.
 
This is classic xenophobia/Islamophobia.
Fueled by propaganda, of course.
 
2:07 AM
@AmaniKilumanga Trump's claim is that he trusted the Obama administration's analysis of what countries are dangerous.
@AmaniKilumanga And if it's about Muslims, why not ban Indonesia?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Indonesia >87% of Indonesians are Muslim.
Additionally, I'm sorry, but 9-11 made people afraid of Islam. Not propaganda. If extreme Muslims hadn't done that, every political figure would have a lot harder time even trying to claim it's a problem.
 
There are two issues getting mixed up here:
- Islamic terrorism
- Trump's order, and whether it's legal, moral, accurately addresses the issue, and effective
 
I don't think you can separate the two.
 
They can't be separated; but Does that mean you think the order effectively addresses Islamic terrorism?
 
I don't know. But it's impossible to understand the intentions of the order without having some understanding of Islamic terrorism. And it's impossible to understand whether the order is any good without having understanding of it.
 
Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that it's all because of the confused US policy on Islamic terrorism.
 
2:20 AM
That may be a fair assessment.
Ostensibly, the order is just a temporary stop gap while a better policy is flushed out.
 
The problem is that, on one side, the US is (maybe have to be) allies with the Saudi government. On the other side, you can't deny the pivotal role of the Saudis in what currently is known as Islamic terrorism.
 
which kind of supports what you just said, that the policy is confused. Trump is basically saying that he needs to stop new immigration for 90 days while they put something that will actually work in place. Whether you think that actually makes sense is up to you, but that's his explanation.
 
How's it going?
 
much less lively tonight.
 
I firmly believe that this issue will unfortunately continues to spread even more (even if they build a wall all around the country), until the US government change it's middle east policy fundamentally.
They have to admit some facts.
 
2:28 AM
@jpmc26 dunno. Why not ban all Muslim countries immediately? Too large of an impact? Too obvious?
> 9-11 made people afraid of Islam. Not propaganda.
Yeah, the propaganda machine has been running constantly since 9/11.
 
Can you give me some examples of propaganda? All I've been told is, "Muslim extremists were responsible for blowing up the Trade Towers. They were also responsible for some additional attacks in the 90s. They are still trying to enter our country and commit more acts of terror against us. Unfortunately, some of the hatred may be because of actions our country took (or didn't take) in the Middle East in the past,
but it is also at least partially motivated by religious beliefs about dominating non-Muslims. This is probably not a majority view, but it exists in enough numbers to be dangerous."
 
@Cerbrus I'm catching up on a couple thousand messages posted while I was asleep. Give me time. :)
 
All right. I'm heading out for now. Not sure if I'll be back tonight. Everyone have a good night!
 
2:51 AM
18 mins ago, by jpmc26
Can you give me some examples of propaganda? All I've been told is, "Muslim extremists were responsible for blowing up the Trade Towers. They were also responsible for some additional attacks in the 90s. They are still trying to enter our country and commit more acts of terror against us. Unfortunately, some of the hatred may be because of actions our country took (or didn't take) in the Middle East in the past,
Islamophobia in the media refers to the occurrence or perception thereof that several media outlets tend to cover Muslims or Islam-related topics in a negative light. Islamophobia itself is an irrational or unreasoned fear of Islam and Muslims. "Since media coverage of Muslims and Islam is likely to shape the opinions of those who have limited or no contact with this religion and its people, it is important to analyze the potential associations these media portrayals might have with people's attitudes toward Islam in general and Muslims in particular." == Causes == Some researchers point to the...
I'm sure you can find a lot just by googling "examples of anti-muslim propaganda" or something like that.
 
corporations want cheap labor, thus they support more immigration, low income earners don't want to pay for those extra refugees neither do they want instability that's brought by them, they are also afraid that those refugees would take their jobs, thus they support the ban
 
@Telkitty that may be true about the generality of the order, but I still don't understand why is Iran included in the list? based on what reasoning?
(and why some others not)
 
trump likes to pick on the little fishes
 
This is even exactly in direct opposition of the US policy in the MiddleEast. It emboldens both the terrorists against the US, and also even the position of Iran (which is fighting those terrorists, but is not a US ally!)
It looks like an utterly hurried or even a random decision to me!
 
3:47 AM
I'd welcome any reasoned disagreement to my analysis of the post's relationship to the Be Nice policy: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/342646/1394393.
 
user764357
@AmaniKilumanga I think we can agree with the facts that Islam is over-represented in terrorist stories and some media channels do portray them in an overly negative light. However, there are also parts (or sects) of Islam society which are incomaptible with Western morals - such as treatment of LGBT folks, women, and people of alternate faiths.
 
user764357
The freedoms that people take for granted in Western nations don't exist in some Muslim counties - especially those that were targeted by the Obama/Trump Executive Orders.
 
4:05 AM
@LegoStormtroopr _"especially those that were targeted by the Obama/Trump Executive Orders."_
The worst situation exists in Saudi Arabia, which is _not_ on the list. The best situation among the Muslim countries in the MidEast is in Iran which _is_ on the list.
 
I know Iran has at least been accused of funding terrorism behind the scenes.
That doesn't necessarily invalidate your point, but there's a pretty strong mistrust of Iran.
Where does that mistrust come from?
 
Iran's designation as a sponsor of terrorism is mostly a political thing (maybe like Cuba).
 
Is it true that Iranian leadership consistently talks about destroying Israel with military force?
 
It was true during the last President (of Iran).
Iran's politics is somewhat hard to understand. A great portion of power is in the hands of the hard-liners here, no matter what/how the government is.
Maybe it's like 50% elections, 50% supreme leader.
But, even the most hard-liners here are by no means terrorists.
There are both Shia and Sunni Muslims in Iran, but absolutely no Wahhabis. In fact Iran is the #1 enemy of them.
I imagine Iran being called a sponsor of terrorism is mostly because it sponsors Hezbollah in Lebanon. There is no consensus (by Western governments) whether it is a terrorist group or not. It is a legitimate (democratically) elected part of the Parliament in Lebanon.
 
user4639281
4:31 AM
@jpmc26 I've upvoted that content.
 
Thanks, @TinyGiant.
 
user764357
@Mostafa By not targeting Saudi Arabia in the EO, Trump has been able to strongly encourage or accelerate a joint US/SA safety zone for refugees within the Mid East so they can return to their homes and families quicker once violence is gotten under control.
 
@Shog9 I think I have managed to better express what I was trying to tell you last night: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/342646/1394393. (I do better sitting down and writing long content and giving myself lots of time to think than I do in live debate.)
 
@jpmc26 most of us do. That's why writing meta answers > writing chat messages > writing comments.
 
@Shog9 It also seems to me that part of what you were trying to express last night is that not a lot of opposition to the view itself has really been expressed. I think part of the reason for that is the tone of the post itself and the fear of looking like the "bad guy." What I've been saying, though, is that SO shouldn't be a place where you have to be afraid of looking like the bad guy.
 
4:43 AM
@LegoStormtroopr Well, this is exactly the confusion in the US policy on terrorism that I said above. How SA can help defeat ISIS when the textbooks thought by ISIS are the official SA textbooks thought in their schools?
 
That post is basically the third iteration of pretty much the same idea. lol
 
user764357
@jpmc26 How do you define "bad guy"? Is Joel the bad guy or are people who had entirely non-racist, non-sexist reasons for being pro-Trump/anti-Hillary the bad guy"?
 
user764357
Because I'd say by destilling one view point into "the bad guys", discussion on the matter becomes closed. You either agree with the viewpoint or you are a bad guy.
 
user764357
See also: call everyone you disagree with Nazis, then state its ok to punch Nazis
 
4:46 AM
@LegoStormtroopr That's why SO shouldn't be a place where you need to be afraid of people seeing you that way.
We'd all be better off if everywhere was that way, but I'm here, and I can encourage SO to be that way. And I used to feel safe doing so because I thought I had a mountain of policy behind me.
 
user764357
Except thats not the reality of the tech industry today. The orthodoxy says there is a wage gap, you don't question it or you are sexist. Tech CEOs say they want migration, you agree or you are a racist.
 
So? We can start opposing that kind of divide here.
 
user764357
Ok, lets start. I don't think restricting migration is inherently bad. And the refugee, economic and labour situations are drastically different to periods like the Vietnam War (when east-Asian migration was at a peak)
 
user4639281
I'm voting to close this as too broad. </joke>
 
@TinyGiant LOL I was Googling before you edited, and I found Journal of Oral & Maxillofacial Research. xD
 
user4639281
4:51 AM
Lol
 
user764357
@jpmc26 There are fewer entry level labour intensive jobs, infrastructure building isn't a high priority, and most heavy construction requires skills in industrial equipment migrants don't have (and may not be able to sklll too).
 
Is that an argument for maintaining existing immigration policy or in favor of this particular order?
or both?
@LegoStormtroopr or making the immigration policy generally more strict to reduce the number of migrants?
 
user764357
Its more a statement against open-borders than anything. I am strongly pro-refugee and moderately pro-migration, but it needs to be supported by infrastructure and jobs to support them.
 
user764357
Yet, because I'm not 100% pro open-borders I've been regularly called racist.
 
I honestly don't understand the "open border" view. Even if you feel it's morally better, it just seems impractical.
 
user764357
5:00 AM
Presicely.
 
Particularly in a country that people flock to instead of from.
SO doesn't believe in a truly "open border" policy. Look at all the moderation we have on who can post and who can't.
And that's rightly based on the fact that allowing anyone to post anything is impractical and interferes with making this a healthy community.
Why would a physical location be any different?
 
user764357
> If Stack Overflow were not a free, open, and welcoming community that ignored borders, it would never work
> the only way to build a successful world today is to allow the contributions of everyone. Carving up the world into us vs. them, building walls, and demonizing religions, nations, and refugees is both morally repugnant and counterproductive
 
user764357
Thats from Joel, and I read that as a 'let them in', no restrictions.
 
=) SO does have the luxury of making it's "borders" almost entirely behavior based, though.
But that's partly because SO doesn't have to deal with death and bombs. The negative consequences of someone slipping through temporarily are relatively easy to clean up.
Contrast with physical migration, where someone slipping through briefly means they might fall off your radar entirely and could kill hundreds or thousands of people.
(or might even do that without falling off your radar)
In other words, it's a lot easier to "throw them out" after they're in.
Can you imagine the reaction if Trump had tried to institute a "throw them out" policy of any kind?
 
user764357
@AmaniKilumanga you pinged but I didn't see it? I'm curious to know your response
 
5:10 AM
@LegoStormtroopr trying to figure out how to get the formatting right
> However, there are also parts (or sects) of Islam society which are incomaptible with Western morals - such as treatment of LGBT folks, women, and people of alternate faiths.
The freedoms that people take for granted in Western nations don't exist in some Muslim counties - especially those that were targeted by the Obama/Trump Executive Orders.
@LegoStormtroopr do you really think the EO is for "LGBT folks, women, and people of alternate faiths"?
 
Trump has continually expressed support for those groups of people. You can say he's lying if you want, but that's what he's said.
 
user764357
No, its saying until we can figure out a way to process people correctly, lets wait for 90 days. When Trump signs an order banning LGBT people I'll be right there on the front lines with you. But this is a message that I interpret as 'previous attempts at vetting haven't worked, there is a risk to the American people, lets stop it, and come up with a better solution'.
 
@jpmc26 Yeah, I'm asking if you (or Lego) thinks the EO has anything to do with LGBT folks etc.
@LegoStormtroopr but what is the "risk to the American people"?
 
It is motivated by a desire to protect Americans, and there are Americans in those categories. So yes, it does.
(You're welcome to think or argue it's a misguided motive, but you asked if it had anything to do with them.)
 
user764357
5:22 AM
@AmaniKilumanga There are minority Islamic extremists that consider women as lesser than men or think gays should be executed - lets not whatabouterry by drawing and equivilience to Christianity as they may be bigoted but no church could tie someone to a chair and throw them off a roof for being gay and not be immediately shut down.
 
@jpmc26 It's interesting to see people who reason like this. Personally, I think it's a bit of a logical leap.
 
user764357
These ideas are being brought here by some people, and acted on - such as the Orlando massacre or the Cologne 'troubles'? (here being the broader West)
 
@LegoStormtroopr Actually these ideas are being thought in many mosques that already exist in the US.
(One example being The King Fahad Mosque in Los Angeles.)
 
@LegoStormtroopr "no church could tie someone to a chair and throw them off a roof for being gay and not be immediately shut down" let's not talk about fiction here
Is there a mosque "here" (as in the West) that ties people to chairs and throw them off roofs for being gay?
 
user764357
@AmaniKilumanga you honestly think an organised church could murder someone in cold blood in the USA and not be prosecuted swiftly?
 
user764357
5:26 AM
And no there is no mosque here that could do the same, but there are mosques there that can and have.
 
@LegoStormtroopr I don't think that's what he meant.
 
@LegoStormtroopr I think you might have misread. I'm saying neither churches nor mosques can get away with that.
 
user764357
Well, Im sorry you think that but... pinknews.co.uk/2016/12/05/…
 
@LegoStormtroopr I think the point he's making is that it may be due more to the surrounding culture than the religion.
 
5:28 AM
@LegoStormtroopr "in the West"
 
user764357
perhaps - and thats why people are wanting to restrict that culture coming to the West
 
user764357
Restrict incidents like what is happening there, what happened in Cologne and in Orlando
 
Could an extremist Christian church get away with it in the countries mosques have? (Assuming they wouldn't get killed for being Christian in the first place...)
 
user764357
As I said, this is whataboutery - its happening in those cultures now.
 
Sadly, there are historical examples of Churches executing heritics.
 
user764357
5:30 AM
historical
 
user764357
Yes, there are historical examples of Islamic raiders taking slaves but thats not relevent to this discussion now.
 
user764357
Churches in the American heartland where they voted Trump in wildly aren't doing that. They just don't want to sell them cakes.
 
lol. I feel weird. I'm a Christian who believes LGBT is harmful to our society, and here I'm teasing out an opposing viewpoint that's arguing that Christianity is just as dangerous to LGBT as Islam.
 
user764357
Shit, if the worst bigotry the world has is not selling cakes we'ed be ok.
 
user764357
Westbro Baptists (probably the most extreme anti-gay organised sect of Christianity) say bad things at funerals.
 
user764357
5:35 AM
This is the thing, you want to stop Christians voting for Trump - how about start by recognising that Christian bigotry and Islamic bigotry in 2016 are completely different beasts. Recognise that 50% of anti-abortionists are women.
 
user764357
The messages of the left of 'sexist/racist/transphobe' aren't sinking in anymore and are making them buck harder. They are poor and broke and jobless, and more migrants are coming to directly compete with the unskilled and uneducated. You think telling them their Sunday morning social group is the source of all evil will make them vote for you?
 
user764357
We (the left and exiled-left) made Trump.
 
user4639281
@LegoStormtroopr that's a bit idealistic. Many men of the church have done a great many horrible things in the name of God.
 
And many have done a great many wonderful things in the name of God.
 
user764357
When? In 2016? And church sanctioned? Because thats what I'm talking about
 
user4639281
5:38 AM
Saying that no church has done anything like that and gotten away with it is a pretty sweeping generalization
 
user764357
No, I'm saying in 2016. Or even this decade.
 
user4639281
Not in that message. Now you are
 
okay, let's not quibble over details of who said what when. it's a clarification of the original intention.
 
user4639281
Regardless of whether or not a church has murdered a gay person in the last year is fairly irrelevant to the comparison
 
@TinyGiant You can't argue that it's an accepted practice in any modern culture that's even close to dominated by Christian values, though.
Or am I wrong?
 
user4639281
5:43 AM
My point is that not very long ago unfair treatment of women and other minority groups was fairly common place and what we deem as highly offensive now was once widely accepted.
 
user764357
Like killing gays?
 
user4639281
Something to keep in mind when judging others
 
user4639281
I'm not advocating for any of those things, just reminding everyone that it is in all of our recent history
 
user764357
Sure, lets not judge them for beating women and killing gays and non-believers because at some point in some part of history everyone did that.
 
user4639281
No I'm not saying don't judge them for it. I'm saying to keep history in mind
 
user764357
5:45 AM
Ok, so by that logic we can judge all Germans as Nazis because historically...
 
I think what Tiny is trying to say is that we shouldn't let ourselves feel morally superior.
 
user4639281
That's not what I'm saying at all
 
user764357
Whos feeling superior, I'm trying to explain why some people are worried.
 
user4639281
@jpmc26 that is what I'm saying
 
user764357
Never trust a Hun, one minute everything is fine. Next thing elephants all over the alps. Thats what I always say.
 
user4639281
5:47 AM
That's a horribly racist statement.
 
and what Lego is saying is let's not ignore the reality we're in, either.
 
user764357
Fortunately the Hun empire died off in the 500s so we're safe from elephants. But if thats offensive you can never say 'vandal' again.
 
okay, okay. let's not get upset with each other.
 
user4639281
@jpmc26 I'm not saying to ignore reality, just to keep in mind our history before implying that any one group of people is less capable of comic ting atrocious acts just because they haven't recently
 
user764357
Who said less capable, I''m saying they haven't done it recently.
 
user764357
5:50 AM
Besides, Trump has already won 2020 because of this kind of discussion. I'm trying to tell you why people are justifiably concerned and here we are talking about the racism of calling all Huns elephant riders.
 
I don't think either of you is trying to say to do the thing you're advocating against.
I do think you're emphasizing different concerns, though.
 
user4639281
I wasn't disagreeing with your position, merely pointing out a fault in the logic of one of your statements, and contributing a suggestion of something to keep in mind when evaluating an entire country of people with sweeping statements.
 
user764357
Criminy. I said 'some muslim sects' not all. And I said its not prevalant today, not wasn't before.
 
user764357
Just call me a Nazi so I leave.
 
=/
Don't make me start analyzing whether we're Being Nice or not. lol
 
user4639281
5:55 AM
I'm trying to contribute something to the discussion and you won't even accept that my point could even be remotely valid.
 
user764357
which point?
 
user4639281
Wow. Thanks.
 
user764357
The point that in the past Christians have done bad things?
 
user764357
That is a valid point.
 
user764357
Christians are as capable of doing evil as Muslims? Also valid.
 
user4639281
5:59 AM
You obviously don't care about anything other than having you position validated. Further discussion with you is pointless. Good day.
 
user764357
Yes, and thats the same for everyone.
 
...I don't think that's obvious at all. =/
 
user764357
My point is that comparing historical behaviour to current behaviour is irrelevant to my argument. Yes, Christians have treated gays poorly. But thats irrelevant when comparing the behaviour of groups today.
 
user764357
Not selling a cake is not the same as stoning people to death.
 
user764357
Again, this is why Trump won. People were saying they were concerned about Islam and migration and the left/democrats/what-have-you kept deflecting.
 
6:02 AM
Tiny didn't say it was. I think all Tiny is saying is... be vigilant. Don't ignore the possibility that we could very rapidly descend into a very bad situation.
 
user764357
The defence against Hitler wouldn't have been going "yeah it sucks for Germany, but how to you think the Jews feel about this", it would have been "hey Germans, sucks you are out of work and paying reparations to France for WWI because of a bum deal. Lets fix that"
 
user764357
Yeah, we could. And we will. If we don't actually listen to the people who support Trump.
 
6:19 AM
@LegoStormtroopr This is what we've been trying to get at all along. Many of the people who support Trump (especially me) only support him at this point because he hasn't disregarded us. From the beginning of Trump v. Clinton the entire democratic party spent all their money demonstrating why supporting Trump 'was a terrible idea and half of you are deplorables for that' and whatnot, when some of us supported him for his lack of such statements (for the most part).
2
I've been called a racist, bigot, and terrible person more times in the last 12 weeks than ever before in my life. Why? Is this not the hate we tried to prevent? I feel very unsafe at this point, not because I do or say things that are 'insensitive' (because for the most part I don't) but because I'm paraded into this group that the entire democratic party is saying 'is a racist, evil, terrible group.'
2
The democratic party wrote me off because of the actions of so few supporters of Trump that it's unreal. They told me I don't matter, that my opinion is a sham.
When they protested and wrote letters directly to the electoral college telling them to do 'what's right' and 'what's moral' and vote Clinton, that was the final straw.
I was a democrat my entire life until HRC won the primary, unfortunately.
Every time the democratic part (and other liberals in general) write me (or others) who support Trump off as 'racist xenophobes' you tell me that you don't respect me as a person.
3
During this whole campaign and election I assume Trump was going to lose, and I prepared for that. Not once did I act disrespectful to anyone supporting HRC, before, during, or after the election. NOT A SINGLE TIME
 
user764357
@EBrown confirmed Nazi! (but yes, I agree completely)
 
@EBrown Or even just "immoral" and "un-American"?
 
Now, I ask you, WHAT THE LITERAL F^^^ DID I DO?
 
user764357
Nothing. Not a damn thing.
 
@LegoStormtroopr And that's what bothers me.
 
user764357
6:24 AM
Bothers me too.
 
The funny thing is I still support a lot of the democratic ideals.
And I support all of the moral ones.
Racial/religious/ethnic equality, the right for people to feel safe in public, etc.
 
Trump isn't exactly 100% right wing down the party line, actually.
 
In fact, I help one of the islamic gentlemen at our work when people there insult/aggress towards him.
I stand up for him when he's no relation to me.
The first time I met the man he told me he was islamic, and I respected that.
This person, who has much more right to fear for his life than I do, just told me that he's part of a minority that is very much feared in this country.
And I support him, I'm now friends with him, not because of that, but because he's a good person as a whole.
But I'm racist, xenophobic, un-American?
All I ask is that the left start seeing the Trump supporters for who they are: real people.
That's it. We're human too.
We want the same thing you do: a country we can live in and be proud of.
/endrant
 
user764357
As I said on a long deleted comment on this question - tech values diversity of everything except political ideology.
 
user764357
Follow the orthodoxy, be silent or be exiled. Now that Trump is in the orthodoxy is challenged and people can actually speak their minds.
 
6:29 AM
@LegoStormtroopr Let's be honest. It's not just tech. It's pretty much the entire elite.
That right there probably has something to do with Trump's victory. He campaigned on the idea that he cares about everyone, not just getting his party in power and policies in place.
 
user764357
Well yeah, Hollywood is another classic example. More diversity - yet anyone pro-Trump was quickly smacked down
 
@LegoStormtroopr I might have been inclined to say this made sense, if it wasn't for the fact that the EO was a blanket ban on even green card holders and visa-approved people.
 
@AmaniKilumanga Have you read the order?
The actual text, that Trump and co. wrote?
The long, multi-page document detailing how this process works?
And what he plans to do in the mean-time?
 
@EBrown no, is there something specific you would like to bring to my attention?
 
@AmaniKilumanga Oh yes, a lot of something's that are specific.
 
6:32 AM
12
Q: Trump's temporary ban and green card holders

KonstantineThis article by David French has this nugget: However, there are reports that the ban is being applied even to green-card holders. This is madness. The plain language of the order doesn't apply to legal permanent residents of the U.S., and green-card holders have been through round after roun...

 
are there companion docs to the actual order? It doesn't appear to be multipage.
 
That link is to the full text of the order.
@jpmc26 It is if you print it, which I have.
 
geez. that question doesn't cite all that.
 
@jpmc26 My answer does, to an extent.
First, Trump doesn't name any of those countries in the order.
Those are determined by the SOHS/DOHS.
(Secretary/Department of Homeland Security)
The SOHS determines these countries with the following clause: "whether the presence of an alien in the country or area increases the likelihood that the alien is a credible threat to the national security of the United States; whether a foreign terrorist organization has a significant presence in the country or area; and whether the country or area is a safe haven for terrorists."
 
6:36 AM
@jpmc26 I see. So green card holders and dual citizens were not to be banned.
 
Now if we dig through more U.S.C. sections, namely 8 USC 1187 and 8 USC 1182 we find a lot more information, especially regarding 'unconstitutional'
> Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate.
The United States Code (a horrendously long document) details that the president has the power to make exactly this decision for exactly this reason.
If we dig deeper into the USC we find more fun.
> (12) Not present in Iraq, Syria, or any other country or area of concern
> (D) Countries or areas of concern
(i) In general
Not later than 60 days after December 18, 2015, the Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of State and the Director of National Intelligence, shall determine whether the requirement under subparagraph (A) shall apply to any other country or area.
> (iii) Annual review
The Secretary shall conduct a review, on an annual basis, of any determination made under clause (i).
(I already posted (ii) above.)
(I know, wall of text, but it's important to understanding this issue fully.)
 
I gotta go soon. Were you planning to explain more? xD @EBrown
 
@jpmc26 Not unless anyone asks more questions, I spent all morning digging into various sections of the U.S.C. and this order (and the second, more heavily related one) to understand the implications fully.
(Not that I understand everything about it, but I can at least direct people to various locations to explore more.)
 
6:54 AM
 
@AmaniKilumanga No, I tend to avoid Skeptics.
 
@EBrown well, it's a highly upvoted answer that reflects what a lot of people (including me) were hearing from the media
 
@AmaniKilumanga Aye, and the problem with the U.S. media is that every outlet is biased.
 
Pro tip: Don't listen to the US media in general.
3
 
I'm still confused about the timing though
 
6:59 AM
Timing of what?
 
of the EO
is it in response to something?
 
It's basically a week after the inauguration.
I interpret that as "ASAP."
which kind of makes sense if you buy the "90 days while we sort out a real policy" line.
 
Meh, Trump got inaugurated, is now officially POTUS, and is now actually doing what he promised to do.
3
 
@jpmc26 He's trying to set a precedent: "I said I will do this in the election, by god I'm going to do this!"
Now we have reason to believe he might try doing the other things he promised.
 
Not weird - timing whise - imho. Also - as controversial as his actions might've been - I really appreciate him actually pulling through with it.
 
7:03 AM
Whether he will or not, this supports him moderately.
 
or alternatively, "I don't want anyone to die while we sort this out."
or both.
 
Why would anyone die while they sort this out? o:
 
Trumps primary campaign idea was "I'm not a typical politician", from what I've seen most presidents don't take such drastic measures to prove that they will carry out their promises from day 1.
 
@Seth The whole motivation is prevention of terrorism...?
 
@jpmc26 Oh, that's what you were getting at.
Sorry, mb.
Haven't had coffee yet, a bit slower than usual :)
 
7:05 AM
no worries. you asked for clarification, politely I might add. I kinda wasn't sure if you were being serious, though. lol
 
That was very obvious though, in hindsight. Might've gotten that with coffee.
Dw, I am not trolling you =)
 
okay. I gotta go.
 
@jpmc26 Later chief, good chatting. :)
 
ask a mod to pin that link to the actual order text if one happens by. ;)
good night everyone!
 
@jpmc26 o/
 
7:32 AM
@Shog9 (Sorry to ping you in the middle of the night, I wanted you to see this message.)
So I track some SE network data (have been for a while) and those graphs show how Joel's post affected voting on Meta.SO.
Curiously, and perhaps more desirable, how it (and the orders) affected questions on Skeptics:
 
@EBrown Calling someone a "racist xenophobe" is hypocrisy at it's best... +1
 
(Due note I included a large timeline of scale here, but the dates are easy enough to see in the large graphs to identify when the question was posted and how it affected the communities.)
 
@Cerbrus Indeed it is.
Ah well, people preaching tolerance tend ("tend", not "are always") to be the least tolerant.
 
Lastly, how it affected questions on Politics.
Very interesting to see the influx of users on those sites, something I don't see a lot on the main site I participate in. (Nothing this big happens in the programming world.)
Anyway, I'm sure you guys have just as good (or better, likely) data to pull from, but this is how I see it and the effect on SE, it's created a positive influx of questions to sites that are specialized in dealing with situations like this, which is a good thing.
 
Interesting :)
 

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