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user764357
12:00 AM
@PhilipKirkbride So if Joel wants to shut down the site he can? Or close it to all people from outside the US? Or demand real identities?
 
@TinyGiant Please don't jump to conclusions about what people believe without actually reading or hearing it.
 
@LegoStormtroopr: Yes, actually, that's true.
 
@LegoStormtroopr Yes, actually. He can do any of that.
 
user4639281
@jpmc26 To be honest, there's so much nonsense about whether this is the correct medium for the post or not, I haven't been able to read all of the valid feedback to the post, no.
 
That's a thing that could happen.
 
Rob
12:00 AM
@meagar Clearly, so can trump. Doesn't make it right, though.
 
@Rob: Are you conflating an elected government position with the owner of a private company?
 
Trump is CEO for 4 years just accept it like we accept Joel's post
 
Rob
Anyway, I'm done with this. Clearly people don't want a discussion here. It's simply "He's the CEO", go home.
 
user764357
You know the difference between Joel and Trump? Trump was elected to lead, Joel wasn't.
2
 
user4639281
@jpmc26 I'm have at no point said that you are derailing any discussion. I'm saying that people don't have to agree with the political position to not derail the discussion.
 
12:01 AM
@Rob Except he can't. The USA is not a dictatorship; even the president has rules to follow and can be sued or impeached for not following them.
 
@TinyGiant There's a real easy way to get rid of the "nonsense." Follow site policy (which is completely reasonable and useful) to begin with, then it won't be an issue.
 
@Rob I'm completely open to discussion, but again: "If Joel can do it, why can't I?" has been pretty well covered.
 
user4639281
@jpmc26 So, when did you start paying the bills?
 
@TinyGiant Yes, I have contributed hundreds of hours toward curating and creating content for this website.
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@TinyGiant, @meagar, if I may be so frank...
 
12:02 AM
Please
 
The argument isn't exactly invalid because Joel doing it does make it seem like, "All users are equal, but some users are more equal than others."
I don't think that's a wrong opinion to have.
I also don't disagree with the notion that it really is as the CEO wills, either.
So in my mind, debating it on that front is a stalemate at best.
 
I agree
 
Oh, good.
 
user4639281
I think the whole debate about whether or not to derail the discussion is a stalemate.
 
@TinyGiant Since when did paying the bills become a criterion for anything related to SO moderation? SO has been telling us this is a community site for years, and that policy is established largely (if not primarily) by users. So it's okay for SO to just ignore that because the CEO has a spur under his saddle about a particular policy?
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12:04 AM
I was worried there for a moment. For whatever reason. :o
 
user4639281
But yeah, I agree as well.
 
user4639281
@jpmc26 He owns the whole thing, who are you to tell him what he can and can not do with it?
 
@TinyGiant I'm no one. He told himself this.
 
@jpmc26: Perhaps you may want to pick a different avenue to argue on, because there's really no incentive to continue. It really is a wash.
 
user2654834
@TinyGiant actually, as a user of the site he should be bound by the same guidelines as the rest of us.
 
12:06 AM
let them eat cake
 
@KimberleyBarrass this isn't really true. The goal of <> users is to foster a community and surely as CEO that is even more important than as a "regular" moderator
 
He told us he believes in these policies. Now that they're inconvenient to him, he doesn't believe them anymore. How is that okay in anyone's mind?
 
@jpmc26 we are discussing politics in a chat room that is "chat.stackoverflow.com" -- should this room be locked because the content isn't about programming?
 
@enderland I'm discussing the moderation of Meta.SO. And so is pretty much everyone else.
 
We are talking about exactly what the title says as was suggested by a mod on the main post.
 
12:08 AM
@jpmc26 An alternate interpreation of events is that he still believes in the policies
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But also believes the message is worth violating those policies.
 
@meagar Then why isn't the post deleted and replaced with a blog?
 
@jpmc26: I've left my thoughts in terse summary here
-1
A: Should "Time to take a stand" question be closed / moved?

MakotoIt's fine in the state it is. There is existing precedent over how Stack Overflow has reacted to momentous and sweeping [mostly US] events which have had some kind of impact on either the site or its users. It's a temporal event. While I doubt it's going to be the only time that something like...

The point I'd like to call out - there's existing precedent here.
 
I don't know, I'm not Joel, and I'm not sure why he chose to post this to meta, but I assume it's because he reaches a wider audience.
 
user1593881
@TinyGiant Huh? "@jpmc26 He owns the whole thing, who are you to tell him what he can and can not do with it?" What kind of argument is that? He just like you and me are one of the users contributing to SO profits ultimately.
 
This ain't the first time the US dun goof'd or the US dun good and we've had a reason to celebrate/deride them.
 
12:09 AM
And before you ask: I voted to reopen his post and I rolled back edits to it because I believe silencing the CEO on his own site is not our right.
 
@meagar: Because honestly it's fun to play Devil's Advocate every now and then - you're largely right, but a drunken post by Joel would be removed by me the second I saw it.
 
Closing the post is not silencing anyone @meagar
 
The main reason I find this whole thing amusing is that all the "we take a stand" involvement from SO (which is what, only twice now?) has been 100% USA centric...
 
@Tunaki It's the first step towards deletion, and don't tell me those votes wouldn't have followed soon after.
 
12:10 AM
@enderland: Well, the company is based in New York...
 
Wells, afk, good night all.
 
user2654834
Not only 100% USA, but 100% related to Joel
 
@Makoto sure, but there are plenty of injustices around the world, too
 
user2654834
personally
 
Not disagreeing there, but y'know, you notice fires in your own back yard before you do across town
2
 
12:11 AM
@Makoto There also exists precedent of not doing it
 
and, dare I say it, far more important political decisions/events have happened than with respect to either of the main SO meta posts
 
@Tunaki: Was that a political event?
 
user4639281
The main reason I find this whole thing amusing is that everyone is "taking a stand" against the CEO of the company's decision to take a stand against human rights violations being perpetrated by the leader of arguably the most dangerous country in the world.
 
@Makoto You're right it wasn't, although it did lea to lots of political implications here in France
 
@TinyGiant Everything you just said starting with "human rights" is a political opinion a lot of people do not share. and those people are vilified by this post.
 
12:13 AM
@tinygiant it's not at all a violation of anyone's rights
 
user764357
It is very coincidental that the head of YCombinator has published a blog post also titled exactly the same - "Time to take a stand": blog.samaltman.com/time-to-take-a-stand
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user764357
I look forward to all Silicon Valley CEOs collectively throwing open the gates of their closed, private gated communities, and welcoming everyone in.
 
user4639281
@PhilipKirkbride the unlawful detention of green card holding immigrants doesn't violate the inalienable right to "liberty"?
 
@Tunaki: That's kind of the fine line we need to walk here. I would say that if France had passed some law which weakened SSH to the point where it wasn't serviceable, I would be willing to create noise on that issue on MSO, because that is an issue that impacts users of the site.
...Or will, once they get SSH finished...
 
@TinyGiant That isn't openness. That isn't discussion. That isn't learning from other people's opinions. That isn't respectful. It's exactly the kind of sentiment that the policies around political discussion discourage/forbid. It shuts down discussion before it even starts. And that is how I can say that Joel no longer believes in the values behind the policies established on SO when they're inconvenient for him.
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12:15 AM
Again - the precedent has always been towards laws and legal policies, not social events or atrocities.
 
@tinygiant the law is made by citizens voting. Trump promised this during the campaign
 
user1593881
@jpmc26 Well said.
 
user4639281
@jpmc26 I fail to see how asking a question about how something affects inalienable rights is so disrespectful and disruptive. Geez, sorry I don't share your opinion on the matter.
 
user4639281
@PhilipKirkbride That doesn't make it any less a human rights issue.
 
@TinyGiant to be fair the declaration of independence (where the "liberty" phrase comes from) was a different scenario than this
 
user4639281
12:18 AM
@enderland It was meant for the prevention of persecution
 
user4639281
Which is what is happening right now.
 
the persecution of a colony by its distance King
 
@TinyGiant We can say anything is a human rights issue. That isn't a useful criteria for what belongs on the site and what doesn't. I could say the say thing about abortion, for instance, on either side, but it doesn't justify randomly posting that one side of the issue is abhorrent.
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user4639281
@enderland So only some people should be free from persecution?
 
@tinygiant stop acting like we are talking about citizens when we aren't.
 
12:20 AM
when did I say that?
 
If someone is legitimately a refugee they're going to be taken care of whether in the USA or a location closer to their home countries.
 
@TinyGiant I'm not 100% clear on exactly what's going on with green card holders, but my understanding is that they're not all being immediately detained indefinitely.
 
user2654834
Even if they were, it is not yet ascertained if it is unlawful. That would require due process.
 
user4639281
Shouldn't there be some kind of due process before people are allowed to be persecuted?
 
user2654834
That's not how the US system works
 
user4639281
12:22 AM
No, you're right, persecute first, possibly ask questions at some point.
 
Ostensibly, it is, actually, @KimberleyBarrass. Although not always in practice.
 
"persecution" is quite in the eyes of the beholder, too
 
Now y'all are getting way off-topic. You're debating the merits of the action and not the post.
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is it "persecution" to not allow non-USA citizens to enter the country? this is clearly an issue which has some division...
 
user4639281
@KimberleyBarrass there's a difference between persecution and prosecution.
 
12:23 AM
How is it persecution? If I go to work for a year in Germany and they don't approve me as a citizen after that year am I persecuted?
 
user2654834
@jpmc26 Does that mean that An executive order specifically, if perceived to be against the constitution for example, would not need to go through the courts to redress?
 
user4639281
@PhilipKirkbride These are people that have already been approved and in many cases have already lived here for years being denied access to their communities, homes, and belongings without notice.
 
user2654834
As I understood it, an executive order, could in theory cause what could be considered by some to be persecution. This would be enacted until the courts ruled on the legality of the order?
 
@KimberleyBarrass I mean the presumption of innocence until proven guilty, although there are some things that can be done to a person based solely on the charge being filed, and not just a conviction.
 
@TinyGiant they are approved to work in the USA as a resident. They are not citizens but could attempt to become citizens through legal means.
 
12:26 AM
What's bothering me in all this are the words "immoral, unconstitutional, demonizing, morally repugnant, stupid". Those words are completely inappropriate. They do not express disagreement. They express the view-point of "I know better, the millions of people that voted are a bunch of idiots, and you will listen to me". That speech is not at all different from the speech they're trying to fight.
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user4639281
> Green card also refers to an immigration process of becoming a permanent resident.
 
@Tunaki: What's bothering me is that the discussion isn't about the post which riled everyone up anymore.
 
Even if you're not American but you are a Canadian from Iran you are OK to keep working in the USA. It only applies to citizens of 7 countries which had been targeted by Obama.
 
user1593881
@Tunaki So true.
 
user2654834
@jpmc26 Ah! - Agreed. Sorry..
 
user4639281
12:27 AM
@PhilipKirkbride Unless you happen to be vacationing in one of those countries, even if you've lived in the USA for most of your life.
 
user1593881
@Tunaki Such is the nature of biological embedded systems.
 
user4639281
@Tunaki I also disagree with the use of those words.
 
@tinygiant well they will have to go through the paper-work that is a sacrifice Trump is making to improve the vetting process.
 
@Tunaki Thank you! Someone who finally gets what I've been saying for hours!
 
user2654834
:O
 
user2654834
12:28 AM
what about yours truly???
 
user1593881
Yours truly included.
 
lol. Sorry. I know other people agree; it's just refreshing to see someone say it.
 
user4639281
@PhilipKirkbride After they've already spent the majority of their life in the USA? That's crazy. Especially being that there was zero notice before the change.
 
@tinygiant wow you're right that one guy who had a green card for 2 years but was in Iran for a few month and now has to wait 6 months for paper work. Of all the problems in the world that's the one I really care about.
 
That post would have had no resistance at all if it didn't focus on trying to force an opinion on the whole community, but instead asked whether the community wanted to act on that recent election, demonstrating how it would affect the company. That would bring discussion.
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user4639281
12:31 AM
@PhilipKirkbride Yeah, meanwhile you lose access to your job, your home, your belongings, your family, etc.
 
@tinygiant like the victims of terrorism
 
user4639281
@Tunaki I don't think you can guarantee the "at all" there. I'm fairly certain that many people would still have argued against the discussion being allowed regardless of how articulate he was when writing the post.
 
ok, at all from me then :)
 
user4639281
@PhilipKirkbride I fail to see how that has any bearing on my previous statement.
 
@TinyGiant He's saying that the policy is intended to prevent terrorism. Terrorism forces equally bad outcomes on people. Arguably worse, in many cases, since they die. You may or may not agree that it will actually stop terrorism or reduce the chance of it; however, that is the intended purpose.
 
12:34 AM
You're using the emotion of hey look at this one guy who was affected by this particular policy. So I'm pointing out the negative effects of not properly vetting immigrants.
 
There was a comment I saw somewhere earlier today, which presented the following idea: this order actually helps terrorism. It increases animosity towards the US, which in turn is liable to aid terrorist groups' recruiting efforts.
Not sure if I agree with it or not, but it's certainly possible.
 
user4639281
@PhilipKirkbride There's a pretty huge difference between immigrants and permanent residents returning from a holiday.
 
user2654834
:) - Well. This has been 'fun' might not be the right word, - 'interesting' is probably the right word. - For the record, I believe we all have a right to stand up for what we believe in and to engage in critical and yes, impassioned defence of an ideal or position. Just not on SO. Whether you're me, that guy, this gal, or the CEO. If you're posting as a user you abide by the rules.
 
@TinyGiant Don't we have examples of people going on a "holiday" and coming back as trained terrorists? Maybe my memory is faulty, but I thought there were some instances of that happening.
 
user4639281
@jpmc26 So it's OK that this executive order will cause many people to lose their freedom, their jobs, their homes, have to live in fear, etc, because some terrorists are muslim?
 
user2654834
12:38 AM
OK.
 
user2654834
I'm going to play devils advocate here.
 
user2654834
this community is worldwide and non-gender non-religion, etc.
 
@TinyGiant I don't have a strong opinion on the order. I'm just saying maybe your last point isn't as strong as you think it was.
 
user2654834
Why can't we all get up in arms about the fact that you cannot build a church in Saudi Arabia.
 
user2654834
Why don't the community do something about the fact that Christians can't go to a country and worship there?
2
 
12:39 AM
@KimberleyBarrass . . . Because that's not the biggest problem in Saudi Arabia?
 
user2654834
None of it is the point though!!
 
user2654834
It shouldn't be on SO at all !!!
 
@KimberleyBarrass because no one cares about most rights violations across most of the world
 
@HDE226868 Arguably, neither is a small percentage of non-citizens being detained for some period of time the biggest problem in America. Neither one is negated as a real issue that people may get up in arms about.
 
user2654834
I don't like playing devil's advocate. I've made myself sad, and acted less than rationally. Sorry everyone. :(
 
12:44 AM
The fact that this post was cross-posted on Islam.SE, but not Christianity.SE or Judiasm.SE (and even cross-posted at all) is very concerning. The staff apparently condemn other people targeting the islamic world, but they are themselves pointing the finger.
 
@jpmc26 That's true, but I think the extrapolation of what could happen is what irks many people - myself included. Whether that extrapolation is fair or not is up for debate - and not a debate I think any of us want to have here. But people are viewing it in a much larger context.
 
This entire thing disgusts me. I came to share my story, on my company's platform, to try to help as many people as I could. And we're all arguing semantics and if I matter and if the platform is the right choice.
6
Here's the thing y'all: I am terrified. To my guys. I can't program, until I try to help some people be less scared so I can move on.
2
CNN Tech thinks my story matters. And matters in the context of tech. and Stack Overflow. Why don't you?
 
Rob
@KasraRahjerdi Please stop writing things like "If I matter". The topic isn't about you specifically. It's about whether or not it's the right forum.
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Really freaking think about that. I wrote 2,000 words about compassion and loving all. Do you love me? Are you making it easy for me to love you?
 
@KasraRahjerdi I don't care what other people are arguing, but as I said to you before, deriding the other side is not the solution.
 
12:46 AM
@Rob it's a platform I spend every day thinking about and helping groom and make.
 
Rob
For the same reason I wouldn't ask how to write a for loop on a political site, we shouldn't have politics on a programming site.
 
and that's exactly what happened in Joel's post.
 
i am trying to love you. to hug you. to hear you.
i am really really trying. that's why i read every one of these messages.
that's why i'm shaking in my own company's chatroom. hear me out. give me the benefit of a doub.t
@PhilipKirkbride i am so insulted.
bye.
 
Rob
Yeah, that's not called for @PhilipKirkbride
 
Sorry but I don't see how you are in any real danger @KasraRahjerdi
 
12:47 AM
well, that certainly wasn't an instance of giving people the benefit of the doubt. =/
on either side.
 
user2654834
that escalated quickly
 
My reading of @PhilipKirkbride's message was that Kasra should probably seek a counselor.
 
Darn. I really, really, really hope Kasra's going to be alright.
2
 
which... given his description of his mental state, could well be helpful. =/
...This is exactly what we don't want to happen, though.
No one feels like they can express an opposing opinion.
We should all seek to find kind ways of doing so if we feel we should.
 
user2654834
^ <3 ^
 
12:51 AM
but... that's the problem I have with this post.
 
@jpmc26 I agree with this likely interpretation but the comment came across as very poorly timed at best
 
@JasonC, @jpmc26: there are currently 198 comments, 197 deleted. I'm not going to have time to read most of them tonight, nor is anyone else going to bother. There's a separate meta discussion for this now, which I've linked to in the remaining comment - if that's not good enough, then there's this chat room as well.
 
no one feels safe doing that speaking their mind.
 
I'm going to just delete any further meta-commentary without reading or replying. But first, I'm going to get something to eat.
 
@Shog9 I have an answer there as well.
 
12:52 AM
Good.
 
@Shog9 That's totally fine. But then you just need to avoid making comments like that towards users. You don't have to read the comments. But if you don't it's important for you to be sensitive in your comments. That's all I ask. Fair?
 
user2654834
@Shog9 I can't believe that answer
 
@KimberleyBarrass ?
 
user2654834
Meta commentary deleted without reading, original post left to stand?
 
Only because they should be posted here @Kim
Or as answers
 
user2654834
12:54 AM
Ah! - Yes. That's OK. That's why I'm here after all. Sorry!!
 
@JasonC I ask that folks who try & use my own posts against me bother to read them. That is, apparently, too much. Fair enough; it's a weekend - I don't have much time to spare either. But don't complain when I'm less than gentle in my responses then.
 
user4639281
@jpmc26 Yet the persistent argument here is that no one should be able to express any opinions on the matter here at all.
 
It's true that having 100+ comments under a post is immoral, unconstitutional, demonizing, morally repugnant, stupid... oh wait ...
 
@KimberleyBarrass To be fair, having known shog through chat for a while, he's pretty good at keeping sight of the big picture and has even been known to be extremely reasonable. Now he's on damage control and it's not an easy job.
 
@TinyGiant No, that isn't true.
 
12:55 AM
@Shog9 All right. That is not an unreasonable request.
 
user4639281
@jpmc26 Well the suggestion that this should not be discussed here implies that no one should be able to express their opinions on the matter here.
 
@TinyGiant The persistent response is that site policy should be followed.
And site policy does outline ways of having these discussions.
 
user2654834
Agreed.
 
user4639281
Derailment by way of technicalities and minor details, that's welcoming.
 
And some of us have outlined alternatives to bring the issue to the attention of SO users, methods that could still serve as starters here on chat and that wouldn't alienate the opposing view.
 
12:57 AM
What gets me the most is that the community is apparently good enough for Joel to use as his personal political outlet, but not valuable enough for him to actually follow through with any discussion, especially with all the concerns that have been raised. Not to mention him unilaterally reopening his own post. He's not doing wonders for staff/community relations here.
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user2654834
There is also the question of how to discuss what appears to me, and I have read it several times, a partisan post, without saying, it's a partisan post, because those in agreement with it believe it is a comment against them, and I'm just trying to view semantics here
 
user4639281
@jpmc26 How's about we all accept that the discussion happened and is happening, and just get on with the discussion instead of quibbling over irrelevant details?
 
And we're not all talking about technicalities here. I'm insisting on site policy being followed because site policy dictates how we choose our words. It insists that we show respect to one another's viewpoints.
 

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