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7:23 AM
@Shog9 I'm sorry I've taken so long to get back to this, but I wanted to make sure I've been pretty busy for a few days and didn't want to just drop something in here.
This answer is probably a good place to start. But also think about what Tigerhawk said earlier:
Feb 1 at 12:37, by TigerhawkT3
And the key to all this - the reason people are upset - is that Joel lied to us.
Feb 1 at 12:38, by TigerhawkT3
He and Jeff created a private space where they can do anything they want, yes... and then invited everyone in, with promises of rules and behavioral policies that (it was assumed) everyone would follow.
Feb 1 at 12:39, by TigerhawkT3
Then Joel breaks those rules. He has every right to do that, but he said nobody would be allowed to. So he lied.
Feb 1 at 12:40, by TigerhawkT3
It's like being invited to a family dinner at the folks' house and Dad says "don't worry, there'll be no politics," and then you get there and a sibling starts talking politics and Dad nips it in the bud... and then launches into his own political rant, then leaves the table.
There's probably one more piece that might help you understand. I've been trying to emphasize this whole time the idea of respectful discourse, because I thought that's what the Be Nice policy and our rules were all about: ensuring that people could have a respectful discussion. But to me, the idea of being a safe haven for respectful discussion means a little more.
Feb 1 at 12:41, by TigerhawkT3
And Mom is left sitting there with the kids, saying "I apologize for your father, but... it's his house."
I'm a Christian conservative; there's no reasonable denying that. And I look at society around me, and I see the things I believe in and stand for being marginalized. Whether they're right or wrong doesn't really have much to do with it. It's that the moral paradigm of most of society is changing. For believing the things I believe, I'm consistently portrayed as a bigot full of hatred, and much of the left wants to force me to comply with a belief system I reject.
You can see it in how Catholic facilities got treated for not wanting to cover abortion. Or in how businesses who don't want to serve gay weddings are treated. Or tax codes that threaten churches with losing their tax-exemptions for political speech. We're moving towards a society that wishes to persecute people for making choices not in line with the left's beliefs.
I thought SO's policies were a promise that it didn't want to be that kind of place. That it wanted its users to listen to what all sides have to say. That it wanted to preserve the dignity of each user.
But this post takes the right's view, crumples it up, and throws it in the garbage. It acts as though the concerns that inspired this policy are so ridiculous or fringe that the people believing it don't need any consideration, that they don't need respect or dignity, that expressing those views is unwelcome. Do you see how that's a threat to treating each other with respect? And how I would take that very personally?
Argh. first message should say:
> I'm sorry I've taken so long to get back to this, but I've been pretty busy for a few days and didn't want to just drop something in here.
 
@jpmc26 I remain mildly irritated by the equating of anti-immigration policies with Christianity.
But if that's how you define your faith, then sure, I can understand why it would bother you.
 
It isn't about this one policy.
 
It literally is.
 
I mean, what I'm saying isn't.
It's about how people treat other people who don't agree with them.
My intent certainly wasn't to imply that this policy is somehow mandated by Christian principles. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.
 
It wasn't. You can have another go if you want.
 
7:35 AM
My point is more that the people in the top echelons of SO seem unlikely to agree with much of anything I believe.
because I happen to be a right-wing Christian conservative.
That's just seems to be the dominant political leaning based on what political content SO has put out.
but with this post, for the first time, SO has taken a rather official stance that people who disagree with their opinion are so unreasonable that their thoughts and opinions don't "deserve" any respect.
 
You're reading too much into this
 
Don't get me wrong. I know it wasn't intentional.
 
Also, I'm starting to get outright offended with the insinuation that, as a Christian, I should be all about banning immigrants
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That isn't what I'm saying. =/
 
So... Might I politely ask that you cut that out?
If you think it's good defense policy or whatever, fine. That's your opinion, not your faith
 
7:42 AM
Suppose for a second that the recent ruling about gay marriage got overturned. Could I expect a post with a tone similar to this one?
 
No idea. Don't practice divination
Now... seems to me, you're trying to make this about something that it wasn't, while ignoring the very thing it was about.
 
No, I'm trying to explain why this is so upsetting to me.
If SO is going to put aside the Be Nice policy for one issue that they feel strongly about, why wouldn't I expect it to happen for things that I have a stronger opinion about?
 
Lotta bits in my Bible about mercy for the poor, the fatherless, the alien. So if you wanna argue that a post defending immigration is anti-Christian, you better do more than hand-wave about hypothetical gay policies.
 
I've said a lot of times that I don't have a strong opinion about this particular issue. The only reason my political alignment is relevant at all is that I think it means I'm unlikely to have much common political ground with Joel or whoever supports this post.
And the only reason that's relevant is because it leaves me asking the question, "How is SO going to treat me in future political content, where I have a strong stance against what SO believes?"
If this post represents the answer to that question, then I can't expect to be treated very well.
 
@jpmc26 so here's my question for you then: can you form an opinion on a given policy based on how it affects Stack Overflow, separate from the political party you otherwise support?
 
7:53 AM
Yes, I can state my party is wrong about something. I'm a bit confused about, "based on how it affects Stack Overflow," as that would unlikely be my only or even main consideration, so I might be missing something there.
 
I'd like to remind you that I saw many users who agreed with the content of Joel's post, but didn't think it was appropriate on Meta, and they were treated like pariahs. Some of them left or will significantly reduce their contributions. That post hurt SO a lot more than the EO did.
 
@jpmc26 I don't care about your party. I'm asking if you can put that stuff aside to think about how a policy affects Stack Overflow.
 
Okay, yes. I can.
 
Then do that.
 
I feel like I should point out that realistically, the EO has nearly zero effect on SO, beyond some upset devs who were personally affected.
 
7:55 AM
That's fine.
 
Do you feel like you can put political policy or opinion aside and think about how words coming from employees affects users?
 
Sure.
 
The only recent policy that affects SO is the policy of allowing Meta posts about political events whose only effect on SO is briefly upsetting some employees.
 
@TigerhawkT3 are you still going on about that guy who rage-quit? This wasn't the first time he'd flipped out over something, so don't read too much into it.
 
There are several users who have expressed such sentiments.
 
7:59 AM
Two months out of beta, one of SO's top users quit because he didn't like close voting.
 
@Shog9 This message was directed at you, btw. Sorry for not hitting reply or notifying.
 
...Okay?
 
Nothing new, nor anything particularly admirable IMHO.
 
Does the logic go "people have left before, so whenever it happens it doesn't matter"?
 
@TigerhawkT3 if I was gonna cry in my beer every time someone quit because we didn't kowtow to their demands, I'd have to really start liking salty beer.
 
8:02 AM
@Shog9 Does that mean that whenever any number of users leaves for any reason, you don't care at all?
Stop pretending that those people aren't human. :P
 
@TigerhawkT3 Two months out of beta, some guy left 'cause he didn't get his way. I also didn't get my way, but I stayed. Who do you think has had more influence at this point?
 
@Shog9 You haven't answered my question.
8 mins ago, by jpmc26
Do you feel like you can put political policy or opinion aside and think about how words coming from employees affects users?
 
@Shog9 You, because you stayed. But don't you think the guy who left might've made some useful contributions?
 
@TigerhawkT3 sure, they're human. But they ain't my kids; if they're throwing a tantrum, that's on them.
Stay or go, it's their call.
@jpmc26 that's pretty much all I do here.
 
@Shog9 Is there any point at which you would start to worry about people leaving? And doesn't the reason they left bother you at all?
 
8:06 AM
@Shog9 thinks I don't think I can agree with that. Many of the times I responded to you trying to discuss the words and the treatment of other people, you answered back with something about the EO in question.
 
@TigerhawkT3 I always pay attention. Sometimes it can be avoided; sometimes we can make changes to reduce whatever problems caused them to leave. But I don't stand in their way, and I don't respond to threats; neither ever ends well in my experience.
 
Like when I tried to say that because of the things I believe, I expect to be on the receiving end of this kind of treatment. You took that as implying that Christians should support this EO. O_o
 
@jpmc26 so... You don't think I consider the effect on folks here because I disagree with folks here?
 
I think you have trouble interpreting arguments that don't reference the policies being discussed.
 
@Shog9 Paying attention isn't the same as being bothered, and not responding to threats isn't the same as dismissing people out of hand. I mean, if you ran a restaurant and some customers complained that they didn't like the soup, would you tell them to like it or leave it? Or would you wonder if maybe there was a way to improve the soup?
 
8:10 AM
I'm not sure what else that means, but I don't think it's fair to say that putting aside the issues is all you do here.
 
@TigerhawkT3 depends. Do I sell soup, or are folks just bringing it in with them for some reason?
 
They are cooking the soup at home and giving it to you for free so that your boss can make money.
 
That is a mighty unusual restaurant.
 
It certainly is. :)
Maybe the boss starts smoking on the job, and the people bringing in soup complain. Do you tell them that they're free to take their tantrums elsewhere?
 
So in this scenario, is someone still trying to ban a bunch of the folks bringing in soup?
 
8:13 AM
Ban? What ban?
 
I feel like we keep losing track of what started all of this.
 
A lie.
 
Suuuure
 
@Shog9 Yeah, because no one likes their soup.
Mostly because they didn't put any effort into it so it tastes gross. They probably didn't even bother Googling a recipe.
Or they purposely put in some nasty ingredients.
 
All the posted rules said that posts were supposed to be on-topic. People depend on that environment. Then someone posts something blatantly off-topic, filled with... brusque language, and not only is it okay, but the rules are changed to make room for more of this.
 
8:16 AM
Not even changed. Just ignored.
 
I'm going to bed now. Sometime, go though the accounts of the folks who were here in the early days building this site and pay attention to nationality. Maybe then you'll understand why this is not about your party allegiance.
 
I don't think nationality has anything to do with expecting a non-political space to remain so.
 
Strictly speaking, neither nationality nor party allegiance has anything to do with treating other people with respect, either.
 
Also
 
How my beliefs compare to the positions SO has taken so far just make me more confident that I will be on the receiving end one day, which makes this more personal and more upsetting to me.
 
8:18 AM
@jpmc26 Well, somewhere between changed and ignored, I guess. The new tag is a change of the rules, but the other rules that say a post has to be on-topic and respectful were not changed.
 
@jpmc26 the best argument you've had today for why you feel disrespected is that you belong to some right-wing party. (The worst was that you're Christian). Let's try this again when you have a different argument?
 
I mean... I don't know how I can make it any more plain that it isn't about the position. It's about how you treat people with an opposing position. That's just more personal for me because I'm sure I'm going to oppose a lot of SO's positions. =/
 
^ I'm just waiting for Joel to call something I believe in "morally repugnant" and "frankly stupid."
 
@Shog9 Please consider everything I'm saying tonight in the context of everything I've said over the past week.
I have repeatedly de-emphasized the issue at hand in my arguments.
And repeatedly emphasized how you treat people you happen to disagree with.
The only reason any of the stuff I said tonight even came up is because you explicitly called out how upset I seem and said you wanted to know why, so I tried explain what makes it so personal for me.
 
Until then, keep this in mind: Stack Overflow is not and has never been a place where we pretend that black is white or up is down. Rule #1 is be honest; if honesty bothers you, this isn't the site you thought it was. Folks can disagree and should be civil, but that does not mean they must bite their tongues or lie.
Good night.
 
8:24 AM
Night, Shog.
 
@Shog9 Please show me one instance where I've suggested anyone should avoid expressing their disagreement. Just one. Until you can, this is nothing but an empty accusation, and hurtful at that for showing that I'm being ignored.
@TigerhawkT3 Have I been in any way unclear that you can tell?
 
@jpmc26 Everyone's a bit unclear from time to time, but I think that more effort is going towards showing that you're wrong and illogical and not worth listening to you than towards actually considering what you say.
 
So... exactly what I fear and am arguing against is what's happening?
 
@jpmc26 To be fair, they can't afford to be - or appear to be - wrong.
 
Why not?
 
8:30 AM
Same reason Samsung couldn't afford to announce that recalled and repaired Note 7s were still catching fire because those engineers were failsauce.
Same reason a starship captain can't put every decision to a vote.
 
I don't see it. I'm still lost.
Sorry. I can be dense sometimes.
 
It would look worse than they can afford to.
 
Let me put it another way: what bad thing would happen if they said, "We were wrong," and deleted the post?
 
It would set a precedent for the community having more pull than Joel. It's much more convenient to make dissenters leave and just have an echo chamber.
I'm just surprised that the defense has been so aggressive. Instead of backpedaling or dragging their feet even a little bit, it's damn the alienated users and full speed ahead with a new uncloseable tag.
 
lol. It's kind of ironic. I just heard a sermon on the radio tonight about admitting when you've done something wrong.
I guess I need to go back and listen to the part about responding when someone does something wrong to you.
 
8:37 AM
The degree to which one can do that depends on the context. For example, I've heard that husbands get a lot of practice with admitting when they've done something wrong. :P
 
I'm certain that's only the good ones. ;) Good wives, too, from what I understand. ;D
 
The pastor made a point of how, "It never works against you," when you come clean and admit it.
that might be a little of an over-generalization, but my experience matches up.
 
Well, there must be something rewarding in verbally dueling one's userbase.
Just yesterday, I watched a DS9 episode where Worf was cleared of blowing up a transport ship, because it was actually empty. But, in private, Sisko made it clear that Worf shouldn't have accepted a mission where he couldn't keep a clear head, and he should've checked his target before firing instead of shooting while it decloaked.
 
There is sometimes a brief satisfaction in feeling like you've stomped you opponent's viewpoint. I've experienced it on rare occasion. But it's difficult to attain, requiring far too much effort. And it is very fleeting.
 
8:47 AM
So, he wasn't punished for anything, but he still had to acknowledge and learn from his mistakes, even if it wasn't official.
 
Worf was more interested in being a good leader than feeling awesome, though.
 
SE not only wants to avoid punishment, they want to award themselves a medal in a big ceremony on Vulcan.
I like Star Trek, in case you hadn't noticed.
 
lol. it's fun. =)
There's occasionally some pretty screwed up stuff, like letting everyone on a planet die while the atmosphere vents because of the Prime Directive.
 
The Prime Directive is basically Jenga.
They don't want it to be their turn while the whatever-it-is in question topples.
Or, "well I didn't vote for you."
 
Or maybe it's just a convenient way of creating a moral crisis out of doing good deeds to save the writers trouble. lol
 
8:55 AM
There is that.
 
9:07 AM
I guess trying to answer Shog's message a few days ago was a mistake. In the end, my words just got twisted into something I wasn't saying.
But then, that's pretty much what's been happening the whole time. So I dunno why I'm surprised.
Thanks for being kind and keeping a cool head, @TigerhawkT3. Have a good day/night.
 
You too, bud.
 
 
6 hours later…
3:01 PM
@jpmc26 good morning! I'll answer this, then I have to drop it for the day
Our original conversation in this room primarily concerned your distaste for the phrasing Joel used in his post.
I reflected on that quite a bit; I ended up making an edit in response to it.
But you've stuck with it; both your words here and the edit you made reflect a desire to weaken his statements.
Now, last night you're building this scenario wherein this snowballs into religious persecution.
I think... That's hyperbolic to the extreme.
The truth is, you can (and have) walked away from this. It doesn't affect you unless you want it to.
I'm still dealing with it. Yesterday was a different site, but same issue (immigration policy) and same conflict over how / if it could be discussed.
Truth is, I've been dealing with it for many months now. We all have.
So this notion that this was "politics free" until Joel "broke the rules" rings hollow.
You started off this conversation quoting me in the comment thread... The only reason I wrote anything about this to quote was that it was already an issue.
And by all indications, it's going to continue being an issue.
A few days back, I compared it to building a house against a hill; you need to put in a drain, establish a guide for water to follow, or it'll ruin everything.
That's what we need here. A way for folks to discuss uncomfortable topics.
That does not, cannot, mean dishonesty or weasel words.
It can mean, must mean, civil discourse.
 
"That's what we need here. A way for folks to discuss uncomfortable topics." Do we?
 
@Cerbrus as opposed to, what, the status-quo?
Jokes and barbed comments creeping up here and there?
 
From my non-US point of view, I'm happy if this issue isn't discussed on SO.
 
@Cerbrus Yeah, I'd be happy if water just avoided my foundation of its own accord too, but that's not in the cards.
This didn't come up because Joel was bored one day.
It's been chewing away at the sites for months and months.
 
"chewing away" how?
Of course I'm less involved than the SE team is, but this is the first I've seen in regards to issues like this.
 
3:12 PM
@Cerbrus good. That means our efforts haven't been for nothing at least.
 
To "the user", it did look like Joel brought it to meta.
That may be part of the problem
@Shog9 Apparently, and thanks, in that case :-)
 
I gotta run - gonna be late for an appointment. But read the answer I posted to Tim's meta post, I talk about this a bit more.
 
I'll have a look
 
 
8 hours later…
11:09 PM
SO doesn't need a place for users to discuss uncomfortable topics. It needs a place to discuss programming, and that's what it does. People can discuss uncomfortable topics in a million other places. Rich soil is good for farms, but there's no need to track it into the house.
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