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10:09
in the election pages, can Stack Overflow users see the + & - vote breakdown that users with 2500 pts get to click on?
What is a reason to be a StackOverflow Moderator?
10:54
@JeremyThompson 1k, actually.
11:31
so in the elections its 1K to see +/-? and the rest of SO remains at 2.5K for that privilege?
just a question if I was blind: after asking newbie stuff like "how does up/down vote in primary" and "whats primary for",
I saw today the yellow box on right side of election site. Was I blind not seeing it or is it new since tonight?
@jeremy It's 1k everywhere.
and I only realised it after 2.5K? fail
@jokerdino I was wondering why it just throwed an error, now I know
@JeremyThompson haha it happens to the best of us :)
@ShegitBrahm i get that failed to fetch error too.
actually, the meta says everyone who can vote should be able to see the vote count. but i guess there is a bug in there.
11:41
@jokerdino yeah, that's how it sounded
@ShegitBrahm and that text box was there all the time.
@jokerdino -.-' well, need new glasses
Because I reread the center part again and again, with no succes. Well, if everything is on the right (sic!) side ...
i know what you mean.
11:44
:-)
bye bye for the moment
- unless I have a question again and don't find the yellow box ;-)
right. see ya later
 
2 hours later…
13:56
@ThiefMaster. I hope as the new mod, you will give a lot higher penalty for serial downvotes. It's the third time I got serial downvoted knowing who did it, and the culprit wasn't banned even for a minute. :(
The downvotes on Jun 10?
Ah nevermind, thought one of those votes hit my answer, too, but the question titles were just similar.
Anyway, if I'm elected I'll see what the tools can do regarding serial voting. Not going to make promises I cannot keep now - especially without knowing the exact possbilities of the mod tools.
 
1 hour later…
15:05
@JeremyBanks - The new 'Current Primary Score / Height of Nomination Post (pixels)' graph on your soElectionGraphs.js script is hilarious. You ought to post that to StackApps!
15:15
@gdoron 5 downvotes in one minute on June 10 and May 31, where's the other? I've heard of smaller numbers getting caught by the automated vote-removal script. Put a flag on one of the post, mention the suspect and any other runs, and the current mods should be able to take a look at it. As an SE 2.0 mod, the tools aren't real great at catching serial voters, but they can do a little.
 
3 hours later…
18:45
For two elections in a row, some candidates have pointed out that they're far away from the US, so they could do mod work during low-coverage hours. Is there an actual problem with flags building up overnight and not getting cleared out until the next morning/day (by US time zone standards), or is this just bonus info?
18:55
It is unfair to expect moderators to give away their hearts and minds, while those who run the network profit from it.

It is akin to having unpaid, volunteer fire departments put their lives on the line to save affluent suburbans and their mansions because they don't want to pay for fire fighter salaries.

I think moderators should be compensated for their time and effort. Perhaps, stackoverflow.com could give them a small stipend to cover their computing costs (i.e. internet service, electricity, etc.) and some proceeds coming from profits on a quarterly or yearly basis.
Pretty much no site pays you for moderator duties.
@JoelRodgers I like answering questions - particularly those that I know how to answer but don't know the answer first. The self-learning thing on challenging questions is great. It's also nice knowing that there are people like me who probably find the stuff I get stuck on interesting too.
As for moderation I don't think it's an entirely one-way street. It's pretty good CV fodder for certain jobs and far more useful in the grand scheme of things than collecting stamps. Are you opposed to open source hobby projects too?
@JoelRodgers If money is an incentive for participation, it could actually lower the quality of the site. See: Experts Exchange
ExEx is horrible. I wonder why it's still not "Ex-ExEx", aka dead.
People often do better with intrinsic rewards rather than extrinsic
19:00
(Are there seriously people who pay for answers instead of just scrolling down all the way and read them without logging in, paying, etc.?)
The content and the userbase is where the value lies on SO, but the content is all CC'd so even if Stack Exchange suddenly turned evil that's an awesome knowledge base you could take in house or re-purpose under pretty reasonable terms.
@JoelRodgers Apparently the moderators don't feel that way.
@ThiefMaster I didn't realise there were free answers, but then I hid it from search results the first time it asked me to pay.
Heh, awesome
37
Q: On "That Hyphenated Site"

Jeff AtwoodOK, which one of you jokers (oh, and I know it was one of you) did this? http://expert-sex-change.com :) Don't bother looking up the WHOIS, it's anonymized through GoDaddy. Also, for the record, I have nothing against "That Hyphenated Site". I for one applaud what they do, because they make o...

@ThiefMaster I love showing that to people, because their first reaction is always "wtf, why is it like this?", and I get to say "let me tell you a story about Experts Exchange and how packed with evil they are"
19:11
I'm not talking about the community paying for stackoverflow, but rather key members of the community are compensated for their efforts by stackoverflow. Of course, I wouldn't expect the compensation amount to be set in stone, but it could be in the form of profit sharing.
30
Q: Why do programmers help each other without pay?

jrhicksWhy do programmers help each other without pay? Mailing Lists IRC Stack Overflow Blogs Open Source What are some analogies to other professions?

16 messages moved from Town Hall Chat
Beat me by a whisker.
Sorry, I probably shouldn't have replied in there in the first place
S'all good. I rarely get to use that chat functionality, so. ;)
19:23
@LordTorgamus flags definitely seem to take longer to get handled in what I assume is a gap between Tim/BoltClock signing off and the US East coast signing on
According to WikiPedia on Experts-Exchange:

"The site offers a paid subscription service that offers full access to those who primarily use the website to get their IT and tech questions solved. By actively participating in answering questions users can earn points in order to gain a free subscription. Those who obtain 10,000 overall points are given access to all features of the web site known as premium services and they need to obtain at least 3,000 points each month to keep these privileges."
MS DOS would also be the best OS if there were no other ones available ;)
@JoelRodgers before Stack Overflow newsgroups were the best on the Internet.
(although the sale of dejanews did a lot to kill that)
Did anyone watch the 4 minute Jaron Lanier talk I sent earlier? It is really worth listening to. He's brilliant.
@JoelRodgers I'm on a dodgy 3G connection so can't really, but it seems like it's just an argument against altruism which makes the world a better place and the SE/SO model fits well within the view of altruism, even if they do make a living off it.
if SE/SO strays too far from altruism as a core thing (as well as self improvement) then I'd reconsider, but it's not a wasted investment of time even in that case since I develop skills and knowledge and the content out lives it.
19:37
Yes, but he makes an argument that this "altruism" inevitably is destroying our delicate economic ecosystem. He supports this by stating that their is a "long tail" in that the Googles and FaceBooks are becoming fabulously wealthy while the middle-class is shrinking. This is far off from the vision that the early pioneers of the internet had.
@JoelRodgers I don't buy the altruism thing for Facebook at all - they're the exact opposite, more like a Faustian bargain
(curiously the don't have community moderators either, I seem to recall reading somewhere they had a wage slave army in north Africa somewhere)
maybe I'm naive but I don't see SO in that same league
Is open source/free software killing the middle classes?
Yes. SO is like FaceBook in that they don't create content, but control the access to user generated content along with adding some value like moderation. They make their money from advertisements.
@JoelRodgers they don't really control it in the same way FB does though - they publish database dumps under a reasonable open license. Facebook only grudgingly lets you get data you submitted back.
Is wikipedia good or bad under this?
SO also make their money from paid job posts. The entire business model is still experimental.
Wiki is different in that it is a completel non profit organization. Stackoverflow is a for profit company.
@JoelRodgers but as a user my contributions go under the same license, I can do the same things with the collective data and SO don't beg me for money with annoying pictures of Jimmy Wales every other month.
That they skim amazon links, or tell me how much dorris knows about HTML5 isn't really a big problem to me - something has to pay the bills and unless that something becomes invasive (like users paying to get poor quality questions answered would be!) I'm fine.
I genuinely believe the "making the Internet a better place thing" - the Q&A model is pretty good, very polished and if SE can make that work as a business then that's great because there is a mutal exchange (and we're not being held to ransom on the data, unlike some other businesses do)
19:51
You missed my point. I am all for advertising and SO making money, but so should those who help it generate valuable content. It's the right thing to do.
@JoelRodgers but money isn't the only thing in the equation, probably it's the thing I care least about. If Jeff's off wiping his arse on crisp banknotes right now then my thoughts are more like "good for him, I hope I have a great idea at the right time" than "hey, I wish I'd got 0.01% of that"
Oh really? It depends on the variables. What if it .01% of $1 Billion of which 100% of that $1 Billion was created by people like you?
A good case in point is Huffington Post that made millions selling the site after years of user generated content. Most of this content was written by lefties thinking they were contributing to the larger community.
@JoelRodgers Might not count for much since SE is paying my bills these days, but there's no way in hell I'd have touched the site if it had been for-pay. I've seen the sort of quality that motivation generates, and want no part of it.
@Shog9 Again, I am not advocating that StackOverflow charge users only that it compensates high valued contributers.
you can always sign up on rentacoder.com or whatever it's called these days - not interesting, not enough money to be worth the effort in my view, but it ticks all the "users get the money" side of things. (The house takes a cut of course, but unless you're proposing state controls everything or starting a consultancy company...)
20:01
@JoelRodgers There are countless examples of this. They are why things like the CC-SA license exist - folks are tired of putting effort into building a library of information just so someone else can put up a pay wall on it.
The compensation of valued contributers doesn't have to come from the users, but from SO standard revenue model.
@JoelRodgers I got a free t-shirt which presumably came out of the revenue stream (or VC pot?), it included non-US shipping too which probably over-estimates the money my contributions have pulled in from the various revenue streams
I'm going to guess that leaving comments on multiple pages to ask people to answer your question is considered a no-no? Is there a place I can report this disruptive behavior, instead of continuing to try to tag all of the comments? (I have too few flags anyways - there are a ton of these.)
@JoelRodgers Stop and think about that for a minute: there's no way we could afford to pay the top contributors on Stack Overflow alone what they are really worth. So we'd be paying them a token amount. Now, there are people for whom such a token amount would constitute a reasonable income - they're the people whose work is worth next-to-nothing right now. Do you really want a site where the folks most motivated to contribute are those whose work is nearly worthless?
but t-shirt and money isn't the interesting part anyway, I have a job for getting t-shirts and money
@DavidManheim just one user? flag and point to their comments activity page ought to do the trick
20:07
@awoodland i flagged a couple, with a message that he had done it tons of places. I just wanted to know if there was some place to report something disruptive, asopposed to tracking it down myself.
@JoelRodgers This is effectively the model that many "content farms" are built on. Write a "Howto" for $10, turbocharge the SEO and ads, rinse, repeat. It does not produce very good results.
@awoodland You must not have much value for your contributions because you are now a walking billboard for SO. You gave them $20, they gave you $2, and you give them back $40 in advertisement. They got a much better deal that you did.
@DavidManheim a single flag will suffice if you explain it well
@awoodland That is fair - and once we have a few more mods, they will find it easier to get to these things.
Speaking of which, we're shutting down the SE store. We don't make any money off the sales, and it just leads to wildly inaccurate speculation as to how much money we're making off it.
20:10
@JoelRodgers meh, that $10 I don't have to fork out on another t-shirt later down the road and infinitely more than I was expecting.
Ooh, that means the black-market value of my shirts just went through the roof - right?
@Shog9 This a good point, but something is better than nothing. Stock certificates, cash based on revenue, etc. are all details that can be worked out. But I would be happier to see people who put their time into creating content get something for their efforts.
@JoelRodgers if you started dishing out cash a) it would be peanuts, b) it would distort the voting in anti competitive ways for everyone who cared about the money and alienate all the users who didn't care
it's a slippery slope you can't come back from, you'll never please everyone and you'll piss off a whole pile of people on the way
@MichaelMyers I'm hording mine for when the economy collapses - betting a mint Zalgo shirt will get at least a loaf of bread and a gallon of gas.
@Shog9 "Content farms" are not the same as SO. SE/SO already have a reputation system that can be used to monetize the value of the contributor. I've wondered if SE/SO plan on doing it someday.
20:15
@Shog9 But where will I get all of my swag from now?!
and on the flip side I've been contacted 3 times now by people looking for employees which beats what my website got in about 4x the amount of time
@TimStone Arbitrary and capricious rewards that may or may not be based on anything you've actually done, thus preventing the establishment of an ExEx "work for T-shirts" economy... ;-)
@JoelRodgers "content farm" is a failure mode for a SE site. A lot of the effort we put into new sites is aimed at preventing them from heading in that direction. It is an ever-present danger.
Fantastic!
Actually, my first bit of swag was a t-shirt and stickers that Jeff gave some of us for being in a particular chat room when SO hit 1 million questions, so I suppose that works out.
@TimStone Yeah, that was a better model IMHO. Even these "contests" make me uneasy in that regard.
I know what you mean. Of course, I got a shiny keyboard, so uh...no complaints, but.
20:20
I never answered a single question on SO because I thought I was gonna "get something" for it. You look at most of the top users, they're doing it for the love of it. Getting stickers was sorta nice, but more as a "hey, we know you exist!" thing than for anything tangible. I don't even like stickers.
@Shog9 I think some people won't care about the money, but it would motivate the hell out of others. Just look at the vast majority of open source projects. They suck because people don't have the time.
...I didn't mean what that sounded like, heh.
@JoelRodgers I always figured it was because documentation, QA and UX aren't as interesting as prototyping
(I like some bits of UX, but it's not the stuff that takes prototype to polished)
@Shog9 Yeah, I answered questions for the Gaming contest because it was about a game I was really interested in, not because I could get a prize. However, that's clearly not the case for everyone who participates...
I do open source stuff because it's either interesting (and fun) or something I need that I shouldn't have had to invent
20:24
@awoodland There's a slight puritanical philosophical underpinnings to many of the arguments here. Essentially, programming and helping others is fun, then it shouldn't have as much value as writing documentation and creating UIs.
my one question on gaming has had more hits than all my SO questions put together
@JoelRodgers I know it would motivate some people quite dramatically. That's my biggest worry. Reputation points are "worthless", but as employers start looking to SO to provide insight into a candidates' knowledge, even that can be a perverse motivation. Seeing folks sign on and post nothing but plagiarized answers is very, very depressing.
@JoelRodgers but the value in paying any programmer is that they stick it out past the boredom - SO questions aren't long enough to get bored of if they are I just skip over them. Real big complex problems inevitably have a boredom phase, as does open source (but that has a personal utility value to compensate)
I don't think people should be compensated for asking questions. That would be a disaster. Paying moderators and responders makes sense. Moderators who have gained community trust should be responsible for cleaning up and watching out for abuse. You're going to have this regardless of whether you pay or not.
@Shog9 Does that mean you're going to hold a closing down sale? Though I suspect the shipping costs will still be the largest part of any order I might make.
20:29
@ChrisF I don't know the details; there'll be a meta post at some point. But I doubt it - we're not gonna stop having swag, we're just gonna stop selling it.
@Shog9 that has the exact opposite effect though if the end goal is getting rep to please employers - I'd never employ someone with plagiarism in their background, if it goes undetected then it's likely an employer would spot it and if it gets detected it gets removed
@Shog9 My tongue was firmly embedded in my cheek :)
@awoodland The flip side of this is that you destroy opportunities for someone who has a better mouse trap because people will tolerate the unpolished software. UNIX is a perfect example of unfinished software despite millions of man-hours put into it.
@awoodland That's why it worries me. If extrinsic motivators prompted people to, say, produce intelligent, useful, quality content... Well, content farms would be really nice places.
@JoelRodgers UNIX is a perfect example of function beating form
how can you live without pipes and a decent shell?
2
20:32
Starred for out-of-context goodness.
@Shog9 took me a minute to see the relevance of that!
@awoodland The same way I lived with the Classic Mac for 15 years. It was able to have a reasonable customer base because the quality was superior to everything else. There were entire cottage industries around the Macintosh that are now gone. Remember Service Bureaus, etc? You're getting some of that around the iPhone now.
SO/SE is a token economy - reputation provides a way to keep score, but isn't actually worth anything. Until it is. When tokens have value in the real-world economy, bad things happen.
oh, that reminds me of a long, rambling Steve Yegge post. By which I mean, "a Steve Yegge post".
@Shog9 I thought that was going to be some bitcoin+malware story then
God you guys keep finding the worse examples of capitalism out there.
20:37
@JoelRodgers says the mac user :P
mac was dying out before iTrend, which are only successful because of the walled garden proprietary lock in
I gotta admit, this is the first time I've seen people advocate against payment. I guess programming must be more fun than crack! LOL! (Time to change your blend?)
@JoelRodgers It was a lot more fun before I was doing it for money, yeah.
(if you bastards quote that...)
coincidentally do you think that all of the GNU contributors that have bits in core utils and whatever else OS X and iOS use should get a profit share from Apple? There's plenty of BSD/GPL code in apple products that the developers and contributors haven't seen a penny from.
@JoelRodgers I'm not arguing against payment, I'm arguing against peanuts token payments that do more harm than good and were never part of the deal in the first place
OK, how about shares or fractional shares of stock? This would motivate true believers as well.
@JoelRodgers it's not worth the ink to fill in the tax return frankly. I have a job for that, I cherry pick the interesting bits of SO and play with them until I'm bored
(no offence intended to whoever is CFO)
20:47
@awoodland You're only making my point. The BSD/GPL developers should have been compensated, but they didn't realize that it was the corporations that would benefit from their work, not the proletariat. If they knew this then, many would have thought hard about it. Also, many of these projects were done on company or university time anyway.
@JoelRodgers I might be arguing against BSD as a licence, but CC-SA definitely doesn't share that flaw
@Shog9 I'm taking a screenshot, hold on. ;)
the GPL'd bits benefit from Apple using it (testing, QA, patches) and there is benefit to the whole ecosystem from the BSD parts too - standardised interoperable components trumps proprietary only things still
Jaron Lanier has a great quote:

"Let's suppose that, back in the 1980s, I had said, `In a quarter century, when the digital revolution has made great progress and computer chips are millions of times faster than they are now, humanity will finally win the prize of being able to write a new encyclopedia and a new version of UNIX!' It would," he writes, "have sounded utterly pathetic." He's referring to Wikipedia and Linux, two clear successes of collaborative construction.
I can't tell you how funny that quote is!
@JoelRodgers which is exactly where SO fits in and the CC license says "we're serious about making this a better place and if we ever slip off the rails and change our minds you can salvage the important bit from the smoking wreckage that's left behind"
20:57
@JoelRodgers You can trivialize any advancement by focusing on what hasn't changed. I have a device smaller than a pack of cards in my pocket, running an operating system more advanced that those driving big iron back in the '80s, which gives me near-instant access to a vast sum of human knowledge from just about anywhere.
Much of the work that led to this wasn't directly compensated, but we all benefit from it.
@Shog9 it's basically a tricorder
(and I think I might have misinterpret that quote - a collaborative encyclopaedia is an amazing advance, it beats the "burn the libraries", it beats the "corporations control and shape knowledge", it transcends languages and borders and governments)
(and the fact that the biggest companies in the world rely on the same software you can download and tinker with in your bedroom, that's shaped by a common interest and not the profit margins of an individual, that's built by people from all backgrounds cooperating and enabling geeks and those around them all around the world to escape poverty is pretty cool too)
Pretty cool time to be alive, IMHO.
(sorry, I'm going waaaay OT for this room)
It's good to live in the future.
@awoodland You can say it is a matter of opinion, but answer a simple question. Why is the Classic Mac OS, inspired by work done by a small team of top notch computer scientists working for a major corporation and developed by a small renegade team in a major corporation, produced the most advanced computing environment? Do you realize how many people can use computers because of the sophisticated GUI pioneered by the Mac? Has the open source done anything this new or revolutionary?
21:09
@JoelRodgers open things have done a lot to kill proprietary lock-ins, which makes data archival hard and anti-competitive bait and switch trivial. They've done enormous things to forward the research agenda - cluster computing as we know it wouldn't have happened without it given the starting point as computing on a shoe string budget simulating things that are interesting but don't blow up or have an obvious revenue stream
My point is that free collaborative work hasn't yielded all the innovations we have today. I would go a step further that open source et al. is actually destroying innovation because no one wants to jump into the market with a real product that has to compete against free.
@JoelRodgers Has closed source? The value that came out of PARC wasn't the code, it was the ideas. This is the epitome of open source - not "give it away for free" but "don't lock up ideas".
Folks get hung up on OSS as some "work for nothing" ghetto, but that really misses the point just as the same argument does when turned on SO. You're working for yourself, for whatever motivates you - whether that's money, acclaim, or just a love of puzzles. The difference with OSS, with CC-SA, is that if someone takes your work and makes money off of it, they can't stop someone else from doing the same.
@JoelRodgers the important thing that open source has done in that respect is make people see the real value of things. The way to make money is to have value beyond the software alone - software is the tool. Imagine where the world would be if people valued and locked up hammers and nails in the same way they lock up proprietary software and attach massive value to it through artificial scarcity
It's so far in the past now, perhaps it is seen as trivial or a joke... But Apple sued MS over the "look and feel" of MacOS. They took an idea that was not theirs, and tried to prevent others from doing the same. That is chilling.
Take a look at Metrowerks IDE from the 1990s that ran on Mac classic. It was the best IDE on ANY platform. It was light years ahead of anything out there, but it was destroyed by the free crummy project builder. The Mac classic used to be the platform of innovative applications, but now that it is UNIX, it is just another OS with nothing great to offer.
21:14
the amazing thing about the hammer in and the nail in 2000BC (I'm not a historian) isn't what they are it's what they enable
@JoelRodgers the best IDEs were research projects in the 1980s which were funded by research councils before companies ran off with the ideas and fruits of the publicly funded research
@JoelRodgers :shrug: - Borland's products were killed by inferior MS products. Neither of them free. Owning the OS gives you a pretty big leg up on dev tools, even when all else is equal.
and it's hardly killed the IDE for that matter either. Eclipse springs to mind.
OK, how many middle class and ultra wealthy people did proprietary software create in the ecosystem? Ok, now how many were created in the OSS/CC-SA/GNU or whatever you call free?

I remember when a programmer could make some beer money at least on writing something useful and the good ones made enough to buy a home or new motor bike. Open source killed this entire industry.
@JoelRodgers open source makes plenty of people middle class
there's huge demand for people with Linux skills - the difference is how they perceive the value
Examples?
21:22
(hard to think of an example I can discuss in public)
Well, you have stuff like Mono and its parent company Xamarin. It's OSS, but I presume these people make money to live on.
Also, creating middle class or ultra wealthy people isn't necessarily the goal. An industry can thrive so long as people working in it are content with what they're getting in return for effort they put into it. If it's money, cool. If it's personal satisfaction, that's fine too. And if it's a mix of both? That's a total win.
Guess where this huge demand is? Rentaacoder, server farms and the most degrading work experience you can imagine. You also have to compete against people who are willing to work for cigarette money in a foreign country for those same positions.
@JoelRodgers those example still exist in the proprietary only world too though
Sure, and when you can't compete on the financial level, you start competing on others (like communication or quality).
It balanced out, IMHO.
computing as a sector is shifting to a more integrated position in every market and every part of society - it's like literacy in the UK: there used to be jobs for people who could read latin that were great jobs because they had plenty of perks. Knowledge of latin implied social status and made the closest thing to a middle class at the time, but as the exclusivity of literacy dropped living standards improved, not declined. Now anyone can read but that doesn't make it worthless, the opposite
2
21:32
Good example. But the "idea" isn't new, it was borrowed from MS and in turn it was borrowed from Sun's Java.

I'm sorry, but you can't eat personal satisfaction or content. There are many programmers who love what they do, but it doesn't feed a family, send kids to college, or put a roof over your head. Why don't you show the same zeal for housing?
instead of getting tied up in something like reading or writing businesses are free to concentrate on what they care about which ultimately is good for them, their customers and their suppliers as well as broader contacts
@AnnaLear I agree that this is still an avenue of opportunity by using quality, but the quality has to be far and above better than what's freely available. This means instead of having 1000 people out of work, you only have 998 people out of work. The 998 people who aren't super men are supposed to starve? How egalitarian!
@JoelRodgers ultimately if everyone did jobs they liked at a fair wage they could live on the world would be a better place. You seem pretty concerned with making sure everyone is middle class but the only way to make everyone middle class is to pull up the bottom and crush the top. In terms of crushing the top GNU/open/shared is a lot closer to that than proprietary, and it's also better for pulling up the bottom to (lower barrier to entry). I've avoided the C word, I wouldn't ever suggest it.
but it does sound like you want to see it happen through closed/proprietary software somehow
I have to run now. In conclusion: SO/SE seems to be good and if they ever change their mind about it CC-SA provides some pretty strong gauntness that will ensure all is not lost. If they make a bit of money along the way that seems perfectly fair to me, I'm not in it for the money, it's a good mix of altruism and fun.

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