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12:00 PM
@Ihsan he's not a guru
 
@Gordon Thanks god, I am not too. For 30 years I programmed and learned new things, and I can not answer some of the simplest things at stackoverflow.
 
@ircmaxell the guy whose book you recommend recommends to always return from a setter. discuss.
 
@Gordon Command -> discuss. Entry accepted... ? Well If I had a heart (instead I have a terahertz crystal) I would be offended.... :D
 
@Ihsan its half meme, half point in cheek
 
@Ihsan that problem with reflection + proxy is also true with the ORM now that I look at it. I see the problem there... annoying :D
wtf, I wrote the same specification without even knowing that one ._.
 
12:06 PM
@Ocramius In my language (Turkish) CORBA means soup. Or things mixed up severely...:D
 
@Gordon I agree with that recommendation...
 
@Ihsan well, it's also like that in CORBA :D
 
Additionally: screw Debian and screw anyone that uses it. I'm stopping supporting anyone who uses that POC operating system
I need to correct my previous comment. After trying to get password_compat working on a stock Debian Squeeze installation, it turns out that Debian Suqeeze does not support password_compat. Yes, Debian have back-ported the relevant security patches, but they haven't back-ported the $2y$ hash option. I have php5.3.3-7-squeeze15: password_compat's version_test responds false, and code using the password functions also fails. @ircmaxell: this directly contradicts what I understood from reading the relevant tickets on github. Can you confirm this for me? Or am I doing something wrong? — SDC 2 hours ago
 
@ircmaxell hmm... again... /** @return self */ public function doFoo() { return clone $this; } - I pasted it a couple of times above... it's broken and error prone
 
@ircmaxell whaaaaaat? Oo
 
12:08 PM
@Gordon return $this, return the new value, or return the old value. Returning from a setter is not bad...
 
@ircmaxell what about command query separation?
 
chaining?
 
@ircmaxell you have too much space in code segment then...
 
@ircmaxell you're relying on a returned value assuming it's the same you called the method on. You should trust your local scope variable tbh...
 
@ircmaxell Chaining is a bad practice.
 
12:10 PM
/me gives up and leaves
 
@ircmaxell dont leave. convince us :)
 
@ircmaxell cool, If documentation is good, If tidy code is your friend, chaining is not so so...
@ircmaxell Please do not go... make peace...
too late...
I feel bad now...
 
He'll get back... eventually... maybe...
 
@Ocramius I think Prudent debian people nerved him up, then he hit us on the way, which is not a good encounter...
 
@Ihsan chaining is a perfectly acceptable practice , as long as you stay in confines of same object .. especially for methods like setters
 
12:18 PM
chaining()Is()a()frightening()way()of()programming()for()me()....
Anyway what I think really is:
 
@Ihsan chaining as such is not an issue when it doesnt lead to TrainWrecks. And it's very useful as a mechanism to build Fluent Interfaces which are useful in internal DSLs
 
$foo->setLorem()
    ->setIpsum()
    ->setSit()
    ->setDolor()
    ->setAmet();
 
Chaining is GOOD when you NEED it. Setters RETURN things and it is GOOD when you NEED it, And when you do not need it?
They are unnecessary.
 
@Ihsan yes
 
Note that capitals are not shouting but emphesising in the previous message.
 
12:20 PM
@Ihsan Objects are unnecessary. Functions are unnecessary. Variables are unnecessary
where's the line?
 
loops and if statements are unnecessary too (case&point: Erlang)
 
@Ihsan use **bolded text**
 
@ircmaxell The line is: OS es and Programming languages and Platforms and Framewoks are tools.
 
oh come on
 
They are not politics or religion*
 
12:22 PM
correct, they make life easier
as does chaining in certain contexts
but like all tools, it is not evil or bad, it is the use of it that can be evil or bad...
 
@ircmaxell Now we start to understand each other.
 
no we don't
13 mins ago, by Ihsan
@ircmaxell Chaining is a bad practice.
 
if you are explaining things to a newbie , then rule of thumb is "chaining is bad" ... by the time he/she understands why the rule is a lie, he/she will also be able to understand when to use chaining
 
13 mins ago, by Ihsan
@ircmaxell cool, If documentation is good, If tidy code is your friend, chaining is not so so...
 
@ircmaxell I am an oldschool guy, who kicked the old school. And an Old one, so when I look back to my code written 2 years ago, it becomes Klingonese.. To avoid that I Keep simple and stupid typing.
 
12:26 PM
it's kinda like with "inline css is bad" .. it is a good rule of thumb for a beginner, but professionals will know when inline css is to be used
 
@tereško Up there has a very tidy example of chaining. I can not object that.
 
Is there ever a use case for inline CSS outside emails? I would rather give something an id and put the styles in the stylesheet. Maybe that's wrong though, I try and avoid CSS design at all costs.
 
@DaveRandom dynamic background images is one example ffrom top of my head
 
@ircmaxell but for gods sake have a glance at stackoverflow. Questions coming in... Ok nobody has to be english native (including me) but look at the formation of code samples, questions.
 
we weren't talking about a question
we were discussing a concept. We were discussing the recommendation to return from setters. And you jumped down my throat with that "chaining is bad" rhetoric. I'm a believer that chaining is bad in some cases. But in the case of setter chaining (as we were discussing, and as @tereško pointed out) it's perfectly acceptible. Which is what we were discussing in the first place...
 
12:31 PM
@DaveRandom I was at a microsoft event, and the developers were presenting at a meeting. one of them said "are you going to talk about expression blend?" and the developer just looked at him and said "what do i look like, a designer?"
 
@DaveRandom another example: whenever you need to save/restore style="top: xxx; left: xxx;" between page loads
 
@ircmaxell stackoverflow is one big resource we can blend in to find out the correct way or sometimes a way to do things with our computers. And there I can see that until you learn a language, do not try confusing things.
 
@ircmaxell imo setter chaining is only acceptable in Builders and Fluent Interfaces
 
@ircmaxell I needed once, just for a state saver. I used it... omg I am not a virgin anymore....
 
I can't believe i'm being paid overtime to set up a minecraft server
 
12:34 PM
@Gordon eih...
 
@Hiroto Luck (please choose [Bad/Good])
 
@Hiroto you can survive that
 
i'm a server admin; it's not hard at all
 
@ircmaxell reason being that if you use setters and getters sparingly anyway (which I believe to be good practise), it the only places where the ability to chain actually gives you a benefit. there is no point in returning $this when the whole class has only two or three setters or even just one.
 
@Hiroto I would not want to discourage you but that just reminded me "Famous last words." :D Joking... Do not be offended please
 
12:38 PM
@Gordon Fair, but I don't think it's bad practice to recommend people return $this everywhere...
 
@ircmaxell why should they if they dont need it?
 
Why shouldn't they? It's a single line of code, it doesn't affect anything. And it doesn't open any potential bugs or abuses
 
@ircmaxell --- And you jumped down my throat with that "chaining is bad" rhetoric.--- I was not jumping at all. I am not against you. I have nothing against your throat... We talk in peace ...
 
returning $this makes me sad :(
> I have nothing against your throat...
 
yes it does. $this may be changed by anyone to be another instance
 
12:40 PM
@ircmaxell because it's a line of code you dont need. and if you dont need it. you dont write it.
 
and that's a source of bugs. You are relying on implementation details of the setter. Now you'd be forced to always do $a = $a->doFoo()->doBar() to avoid referencing different objects
(notice the unnecessary assignment)
 
@Ocramius huh? We're talking about setters here, not actors...
@Gordon disagree. but I need to take a shower and head to work... later
 
@ircmaxell When I pascal, I wrote wrote wrote and it worked. When I C, I wrote wrote and wrote and it did not work then I delete delete delete and it worked
 
@ircmaxell laters
 
@ircmaxell Have a nice day. Take care.
 
12:44 PM
@ircmaxell yes, setters :) and who said that the returned instance has the same hash of the object on which you're calling the method? :)
ttyl =)
 
@Ihsan Congrats, you're the first person I've put on ignore in this room
 
?
@ircmaxell If only I had a heart (I have a terahertz crystal instead) It would be broken.... :D
 
@tereško I understand that one
@tereško ...but I don't quite get that one
 
@Ihsan enough with the bold
stop assuming that everything what you say is important
 
@tereško ok. It was just for ease of read. Now I look back, it really looks bad...:D Like english tabloids...
 
12:54 PM
@DaveRandom .. if client wants different image above navigation bar for each section of page, and wants to administrate said images from CMS
 
@tereško I would require images of fixed dimensions (or at least fixed proportions) for that though, otherwise they would be too liable to break the layout.
 
@tereško I of course assume everything I say has some importance. Otherwise I would not say them because they would be irrelevant. So are you trying to be rude?
 
@tereško Does not try to be rude. If he wants to be rude, he is usually successful.
 
@DaveRandom .. i would assume that you learned how to crop images in php before you knew how to make an object
 
Like Congrats, you're the first person I've put on ignore in this room ? anyway As I said... If only I had a heart (I have a terahertz crystal instead) It would be broken.
Oh I've got to pick the kid from school.
See you later ladies and gentleman..
 
12:58 PM
@tereško Well that's exactly my point. I would normalise the image proportions, meaning that the styles from the stylesheet would always make sense. Regardless, I see what you mean about the positioning styles, I can see a use case for inlining them.
 
oh , there is another one
if you need to put a mask on top of a content image
something like faking an irregular border for images .. in that case you cannot use <img /> tag but have to mimic it with background image
 
Again, I would have thought I would always know where the image is and it's dimensions so I could do it with default styles from the stylesheet, but like I say I try and avoid design/layout at all costs so I'm probably not looking at it right
 
<div class="image" style="background-image: url(....)">
    <a href="/asd/asd" class="mask"></a>
</div>
 
@Ocramius one more thing. Content, that is written to db from Entity classes, is it escaped before placing to db? Or should programmer organize escaping on his own?
 
@tereško Ahh right I get you. Yes I guess that makes sense as well
 
1:03 PM
@Eugene you don't have to worry about escaping
 
Okay. Great.
 
@Eugene as long as you bind parameters to queries correctly, and create records via entities, you're OK
 
as i said some time ago: as rule of thumb, inline css is a bad, but the more you learn, the more you end up with cases where that is the pragmatic solution
 
On a completely different topic, would putting a header tokenization routine on a Header object be an SRP violation (should I create a HeaderTokenizer instead)?
@tereško I always use it in emails because it's the only way to make sure Hotmail etc won't screw with my styles too much, and I regularly do it in JS DOM as well (much as I hate it) because vendor-prefixed el.style properties are just too much of a pita
 
well ... making html emails sucks
 
1:06 PM
that it does
 
@DaveRandom if sounds like a valid object
 
@Ocramius just finished reading your slides. I'm a bit confused regarding the placement of Entity classes. What I mean is, that my application has certain structure. Can I place those classes anywhere I want and just modifie pass in ClassLoader or I should place them in one place as it was in Doctrine 1.2?
Also what is EntityProxy for? Is it a requirment?
 
@Eugene you can have your entity classes wherever you want as long as they're autoloadable
you probably would prefer to have them in a single dir to allow the metadata drivers to crawl them fast
@Eugene proxies are required, they are basically the mechanism used to achieve lazy loading
I got other slides if you want to understand that too :)
 
@Gordon I know, I'm leaning in the direction of putting it in its own class. It's not actually a routine that follows any official standard either (that I am aware of), but it is useful for several well defined header fields from several protocols/applications so it does make sense for it to exist within the lib, I think.
 
/me slides dispenser
 
1:13 PM
It would just feel a little bit tacked on the side though - it would be a little island, not really useful for anything else but not really coupled to the lib either, and it's just 1 routine so it doesn't really warrant its own lib
 
@Ocramius you mean like Doctrine_Core::getTable in version 1.2?
 
@Eugene: forget 1.2 please
it's nothing like that :)
 
Ou. Okey. Just tried to make a parallel for myself to understand it more efficiently.
 
@Eugene it's a mechanism that allows you to get associated items as if they were already loaded into memory
 
1:19 PM
@DaveRandom ask yourself: will I possibly want to change the Tokenizer?
 
@Gordon sold, class it is. Thanks
 
@DaveRandom welcome
 
1:40 PM
Mage::Model('catalog/product')->load($id)->setSku($new)->setOldSku($old)->save();
 
abuuuse
 
@Hiroto Is there ever scope for one of those methods returning something other than the object that exposes the next method call, though? I mean if the only thing that could go wrong is an exception, then its harmless - you'd have to handle the exception the same way whether you chained it or not.
Unless you're referring to the general use of Magento, in which case I agree.
 
she woke up
 
1:44 PM
lol
 
PLB
@DaveRandom And if load method returns false on failure (that is quite common) chaining would not be a good idea.
 
Wow. I just stumbled upon the most disgusting and stupid piece of code I've seen in years. Feels like my brain wants to pop out of my head and run away...
 
@PLB Indeed. But if that's not possible then then it's harmless. I have (quite recently actually) come to the conclusion the object methods should always throw on error, never return false. Returning false is the procedural way. In which case, the chaining is harmless because you'd need to handle the exception either way. The thing you'd need to watch out for would be a getter returning null because the target object doesn't exist, that is where chaining is not going to be safe.
It's not always (and often isn't) good for readability though
Can be an indicator of LoD violations as well
@TillHelgeHelwig Ooh, do share please
 
Hm. I can't really. But I can try to explain it roughly. Image you don't have numeric IDs in your DB, but rather Strings for primary keys. They consist of two hex numbers separated by a string.
 
Ahh yes, the old stringly typed database, I've seen that
 
1:50 PM
When an entry is pulled from the DB this "ID" is handed over to a class. But not as string, but separated into two ints (calculated from the hex values).
 
PLB
@DaveRandom I agree that object methods should always throw error. But, IMO, the best use of chaining is when you need to "append" things.
 
Inside the class these two ints are then seaparated into two ints each.
So basically the internal representation for the ID are four ints.
 
@PLB Indeed, I tend to use chaining a lot with DOM
 
And what is the main function of that class?
 
PLB
Also in given example it makes hard to debug what type load method returns.
 
1:51 PM
Exactly...convert those ints to hex values and put a point between them. -.-
 
@TillHelgeHelwig lol, I was kind of hoping you'd say it was some bizarre way of representing an IP address.
 
I don't get how someone can come up with something this dumb. Why would you ever mess around with a primary key like this? (Aside from the fact that using Strings as primary keys is very idiotic.)
@DaveRandom The IP of the generating system is somehow encoded in that hex string. Don't ask me why or how. I don't even want to know... -.-
The guy who wrote this 10 years ago apparently still works at that company and is department manager by now. Life is so unfair...
 
@TillHelgeHelwig Using strings as part of a multi-column PK isn't completely ridiculous, I have done it before, it works nicely if you have a MyISAM table for generating e.g. customer IDs like abc001, abc002, xyz001 etc. But using a string as the only basis for a primary key is unbelievably stupid.
 
We did an evaluation of the database some months ago. 60-70% of the entire database size comes from those IDs.
 
PLB
@TillHelgeHelwig When I look at the code I wrote 2 years ago, I want to kill myself but I am still alive. All I want to say is that people learn things. :)
 
1:57 PM
I used to have the immense displeasure of working with a db where one of the tables used a postcode as the PK. The best part about this is that the postcode was not unique for the data being stored, it was often possible for people to store multiple records with the same postcode, so users had to guess at some combination of whitespace that was unique, and the search algos had a bunch of whitespace stripping routines to normalize the PK (!)
 
@PLB Learning is fine. But apparently that guy never learned, because obviously he was in a position where he could decide about architecture essentials...and clearly he was not the right person to make that call.
 
lol
 
@DaveRandom Sounds about right. When they moved from one DBMS to another many applications started implementing WHERE trim(id) = ? stuff, because the old DMBS ignored whitespaces, while the new one doesn't.
 
lol
 
Perfect idea. Really.
Full table-scans all over the place and the DBAs running amok.
 
2:00 PM
Yo
 
because the old DMBS ignored whitespaces
@TillHelgeHelwig wut?
 
@TillHelgeHelwig that's such a horrible idea...
I mean, it fixes the problem, but causes loads of new ones...
 
@Ocramius Yeah. Don't ask. I have no clue what they did there...but the id column was defined as char(35). The ids are 31 characters long...so you have appended whitespaces.
But the queries still worked even when you put in IDs without those whitespaces.
No idea what they had done to the DBMS to do something like that.
 
g'day folks
 
2:05 PM
question for you jquery enthousiasts out there.. (i'm a non believer, i do mootools:) .. im stuck with a jquery environment in which i want to do form validation with jquery, preferably using regular expressions as validation rules.. Can anyone recommend an existing jquery plugin that does just that?
 
Oh an btw...there is, of course, no way to generate those IDs via the DB. You always have to call some odd framework function to do this, which creates soooo much overhead. Yuck...
 
Debian is 8 DVDS??? WHAT THE HECK?
 
@ircmaxell With all the packages, yes.
 
@TillHelgeHelwig you can reverse that by filling the id parameter :D
rofl
still
 
2:13 PM
I'm using net-install, but still
that's rediculous
@ircmaxell OMG Y U USE PHP #feedback
 
@DaveRandom i'm in the process of learning mysql for a project. It seem i will need lookup table. What would you recommend me to avoid?
 
@Happyninja A lookup table for what, implemented where (PHP or MySQL)?
 
@ircmaxell debian applies patches or something... regarding that version stuff...
 
Debian sucks
 
sorry: mysql,
I got a many-to-many relationship
 
2:16 PM
I'm going to have to blog post on it
hrm... how many people should I do in a tutorial...
 
what is this table called, say a table that contains a forum threads, when a thread with a unique id get deleted, all replies are also deleted. Like a chain of deletions . Is it a self referential table
 
You should try Ubuntu then... Also, if anyone installs 5.3.3, he is an idiot...
 
user895378
@DaveRandom TBH I've never come across a header comment in the wild and up to now had not supported it. I suppose it's time to start. As for whether control codes (like \r\n) could be present inside a comment in the Server: header's value ... I don't think control chars are allowed, even inside comments, but I could be wrong.
 
both threads and replies exist in the same table
fuck ... regret asking
 
@rdlowrey They aren't I looked it up before. They are CTEXT, which is TEXT excluding parens, and TEXT does not include 0-31.
 
2:22 PM
@webarto Ubuntu is just as bad, because they take all the bad parts of Debian, and add in more bad parts... (for servers at least)
 
You probably don't need to implement anything surrounding that, it's the applications responsibility to interpolate Server/User-Agent/Via, which are the only 2616 fields that allow comment in the ABNF
@Happyninja Oh right, well what you want is not exactly a lookup table, it's a map of the relationships. So you have a table, for example, of companies and a table of addresses, and a table of company_addresses, and company_addresses doesn't contain any data, just a company_id column and an address_id column. And you use it in JOINs to map companies to addresses
 
user895378
Thanks for looking those up :)
 
Actually that's not a great real-world example, but you get the idea
 
> Not fucked. As long as you don't mind three year old packages.
@ircmaxell
 
1;2-2;3-3;4
 
2:24 PM
But then again, you can install almost anything that is up to date... if you totally rely on distro packages, then you have a problem...
 
when i delete 1 all 2,3, and 4 gets deleted as well
 
@webarto No, even at day-of-release it's bad
Debian has a nice habit of patching packages.
Your application puts logs in /var/spool? Not on debian it doesn't!
 
freeBSD is the only distro
 
Yeah, well, that sucks :)
 
nice 'n clean
 
2:26 PM
But it has its purpose.
 
@DamienOvereem If it wasn't for the horrific scheduler, I might agree ;-)
 
yes, i understand. I seen it in the book. But my *issue* (don't even know if it is a really issue but)
I need to store information regarding :
- user within a group
- user being part of more than one group
- user having different permission within a group
I'm confused
 
PLB
@Mhjr There's only one legit answer to your question: Normalize database.
 
@Mhjr You're basically talking about a recursive self join for a DELETE statement, I don't even know if that's possible even with good DB engines. However, you may be able to do it with a self-referencing foreign key constraint and ON DELETE CASCADE but I've never actually tried to do either :S
 
@ircmaxell horrific scheduler ? vi /etc/crontab ? :)
 
2:32 PM
@DamienOvereem CPU scheduler
 
I'm going to have a very interesting announcement to make sometime in the coming week... :-D
 
Is there any way to make this output your\thing instead? Kind of late static bindings for the __CLASS__ constant (that's a terrible description, look at the codepad, you'll see what I mean)
 
@ircmaxell what is it? i live on the interwebs. I dont have time to wait for "coming week". Spill it!!!!
 
PLB
$this will always represent reference to current object.
 
@PLB thanks
 
2:37 PM
@DaveRandom any idea?
 
PLB
@DaveRandom You're welcome.
 
@Happyninja Sorry, the ping went missing, reading now
 
@ircmaxell let me guess, you're pregnant?
also: morning!
 
@Happyninja Ugh, those kind of permission trees are hateful things to implement. I have tried to do it a couple of times and never been happy with the results. I'm probably not the best person to ask. It's not really too hard to see the table structure, you'd have one of two approaches, depending on how complex the available permissions are: a permissions table which stores individual permissions, or a permission_sets table which stores all the permissions in a single row
(the former is probably better)
But after that the logic of how you combine things starts to melt my brain
I might have another go at writing something like that again at some point, it can't possibly be as difficult as I have previously made it.
 
2:43 PM
@DaveRandom thanks for the reply, I do really appreciate it
 
Guys, where to put .phar files inside project?
 
@Gordon :-D
@Gordon Actually, it won't be a surprise to you ;-)
 
@ircmaxell oh. then i know. ok. Now I'm gonna add to the tension by tweeting that I already know it. muahahahaha
 
:-D
 
@Gordon Well.. if it isn't our new mod ;p You got my vote buddy :)
 
2:52 PM
@DamienOvereem im not mod yet. you will all be disappointed when they reveal the result and its not me :) but thanks
 
Tss.. who wouln't want a bastard php developer from hell as a mod!
 
:)
 
@DamienOvereem Why did you just call @Gordon a bastard?
that's not nice
:-D
 
PLB
@ircmaxell Being from the hell is not nice too (I guess). :D
 
@ircmaxell I never signed any document stating I was nice ..
 
2:58 PM
@Ocramius am I correct, if I assume, that __DIR__ . '/library/doctrine-orm' points to same place as vendor\doctrine\orm if installed it with composer. There is no explanation therefore I must ask.
 
@Eugene if you installed via composer, you can forget anything about autoloading (except the proxy dir and your entities)
it's not a problem anymore :)
 
Ou. Okay. Great.
 
@ircmaxell oh, that's okay. we basically just found out earlier today that I am a god, so whatever people want to make me is fine with me :) I am everyone's mod with a lot of space for projection.
 
PLB
3:11 PM
@All It was nice chatting with but now it's time to come back to .NET world. Have a nice day. :)
 
Codeception is forking awesome.
 
3:31 PM
@webarto interesting
and they answer my immediate three questions right on the main page
 
@Gordon I'm :mindblown: :)
 
3:42 PM
ก็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็
trolololol
 
PhpStorm 6.0 released: composer, code (re)arranger, new refactorings, REST Client, Darcula & more http://ow.ly/iOwFT
 
it's out? :O
gonna need to upgrade to EAP 7
 
@Ocramius im trying to get it through the update dialog but it wont show it yet
 
@Gordon what would you say the learning curve on incorporating PhpStorm into your workflow is?
 
@dyelawn huh? It's fast if you used IDEs before
 
3:52 PM
@Ocramius i'm starting a project today and i have zero experience with it. should i try it?
 
@dyelawn what did you use before?
 
dreamweaver + git/svn + terminal
 
lol
 
What is the easiest method to get all the headers from a curl request into an array?
 
there are really still people who use dreamweaver ?!
 
3:54 PM
@tereško i get paid mostly as a designer, i've found it easier to use than the web inspector
 
@dyelawn my co-workers (designers) moved to webstorm and are liking it
 
@Ocramius not familiar, will have to check it out. so, if i'm an average-to-quick learner, would you think phpstorm is something i could pick up "on the job"?
 
@dyelawn yes, it's no magic voodoo
 
Binary conversion question: I'm looking for a function like chr() but that works with values larger than 255 standing for multiple bytes. Is there something for that in PHP?
 
@Ocramius how does it expedite your workflow?
 
3:59 PM
$a = 65 * 256 + 66;
printf("%c%c", $a, $a >> 8); # BA
 
@dyelawn it's an editor, it doesn't do anything with workflows O_o
@dyelawn it's just really good at telling you what you're doing wrong :)
 
@Ocramius so what is the composer integration for?
 
why there is so much question regarding "jquery language"? damn
 
and the db schema tools?
 
@dyelawn that's to install packages. composer is a tool on its own
 
4:01 PM
@dyelawn if you are using DW as a replacement for checking your HTML/CSS in a real browser, then you are doing it wrong
 
@tereško i'm not using it for checking, i'm using it for editing
@Ocramius so do you use phpstorm to do that? bc i'm currently using terminal and i can think of a couple ways a GUI might be helpful
 
even more so
 
@tereško so i can use the design view, don't have to remember css property/prefix names, and don't have to switch between files to edit css
 
@dyelawn no, I still use the console for that. The GUI part is more about slapping me each time I do something wrong
 
NEVER USE DESIGN VIEW IN DREAMWEAVER! NEVER!!
 
4:03 PM
@Ocramius got it. download just finished, i'm gonna give it a shot
 
user895378
Corollary: NEVER USE DREAMWEAVER! NEVER!!
 
@tereško your boldface type has convinced me; i will completely change the tools that enable me to make money, though you've offered no comprehensive replacement advice
 
http://nooooooooooooooo.com/ #php #dreamewaver http://t.co/NwfSC8ZQ53
 
@dyelawn what you are making with your design view is crap that other developer then have to deal with
 
lol
 
4:04 PM
and it sounds like one of the big advantages of phpstorm is code hinting/syntax correction. i actually find dreamweaver to be ok at that stuff
@tereško i don't use it to create elements
i use it to edit css
 
user895378
@dyelawn ... a tip ... never ever tell a real programmer that you use Dreamweaver.
 
all my markup is written in plaintext
but using design view gives me a quick snapshot of what's going on, and i can make quick changes to my css without having to switch from the browser/web-inspector to my editor
 
phpstorm integrates with your browser for that
 
@rdlowrey ok. but to be fair, a lot of people with whom i'm familiar, and who i'd call "real" developers (in that they get paid to make internet things), use adobe tools exclusively
bc their organizations mandate it
 
4:07 PM
ahh .. the magic button made it all easier to bare ..
 
so instead of "don't use x, that's dumb, you're not a real developer", it might be more helpful and convincing to me if real alternatives were proposed
 
@dyelawn I never heard of developers using drewamweaver for coding. It's a design tool, and should be used only for that (if ever)
 
i'm totally open to suggestions/recommendations, and i like to learn from those who are better informed and more experienced. when the information is presented in a constructive way, that is
 
there is only one alternative for people who use Design View to make CSS: FrontPage
 
@tereško i don't use it to "make" css, persay
i use it to preview the design, make quick changes, and add additional properties that might look nice
 
4:10 PM
@dyelawn if it's for designing, you can open your browser window and the IDE and each change will be reflected in the browser itself
 
@Ocramius thanks, i'll try that
 
since DW's design view does not render the page same way as any of the browsers, you are causing yourself extra work: at first you make th page to look right in design view, and then you start alt-tabbing between all the browsers and trying to fix it, because you made the page based on flawed representation of browser
 
@tereško i'm not making any "structural" changes, like altering grid, just things like colors, gradients, and css3 animations. and the browserlab tool has proven pretty helpful for quick cross-browser evaluation.
i'm not saying dreamweaver is the best (otherwise i wouldn't be exploring php storm). i just think it's inflammatory and shortsighted to say any product, especially one so established, has no redeeming qualities.
 
@dyelawn I must say @tereško is kinda right about the quality of DW though... DW is seriously lagging back with the times :\
 
Dreamweaver is the IE of IDE's , it is popular only among people who do not know better
10
 
4:16 PM
@Ocramius and i somewhat agree; again, i'm looking to alter the way i work. i'll say it again though: it's not helpful to say "x thing is terrible" which, by extension means "your work is terrible"
@tereško and unfortunately, a lot of people still use ie. i don't know if anyone has ever told you this, but you're extremely difficult to have a level-headed and productive correspondence with.
 
@dyelawn nah, a guy here is using it and builds amazing stuff. Then we have to fix his coding though
(the visual effect is nice)
 
@Ocramius to date, no one's had to fix my coding. mostly because i work by myself
@tereško you're clearly experienced, well-educated, and skilled. but your communication is bad, and it makes me discount what you say. which is a bad thing, because i'm sure you, like other people in this forum, could help me learn some things
 
@dyelawn the first way i learnt to do website was flash. Now everybody say flash is horrific and so on. At the time it was the better knew option to do really nice web design and the drawback was acceptable behavior. Compatibility was all about ensuring the browser had the right plugin installed...

When i moved away from it, i began really making use of css and by extension a bit more of javascript. At the time i was using Adobe Flash pro as my *IDE*. When I moved away (cause i began to be really piss about flash) I decided to keep thing simple, have myself a local server, write my stuff u
 
@tereško haha so true. Whenever someone tells me they know how to use Dreamweaver and it's all they use. I automatically assume they don't know any HTML or CSS other than copypasta.
 
@Happyninja i appreciate that. never used flash, bc by the time i started writing code a couple years ago, that flash was a less than desirable tool was a well-documented fact
@crypticツ the first eight months i worked solely in text wrangler. i still do sometimes. sometimes i make quick edits by sshing into a server and using vi. i have not said at any point that DREAMWEAVER IS THE BEST OMG! it's just what i've been using, that's all.
 
4:31 PM
a thing i particularly dislike is how DW generate html
 
@Happyninja what does it do wrong?
 
@dyelawn I have not even followed the conversation. I am just replying to the starred post to the right, thus nothing was pointed at you. Yeah....
 
@crypticツ sorry. teresko got me all tereskoed
 
Dying too see election results ....
 
@dyelawn btw, feel free to ask on storm. I don't use it for design, but I use it 12 hours a day :)
 
4:35 PM
Good night guys...
 
@Ocramius messing around with it, trying to get my project set up right now. so when you start a project, do you open phpstorm before doing anything else (setting up git repo, composer.json, etc.)
 
@dyelawn since DW interpret the user wish, the user might misuse html standard to achieve the result s/he want. The same is true with non-generated code but i seen it more often from people using DW.
 
@Happyninja not sure i understand, but wouldn't that be corrected by validating your html?
 
@dyelawn maybe people using DW don't know much about validation either. From what i have seen at least.
 
@dyelawn I just open the dir usually :)
 
4:41 PM
@Ocramius huh? in the command line?
 
nope
I just open the directory that represents my project
I don't really care if I create file in the IDE or out of it
or if the project exists or if it still has to be setup
 
oh, in a desktop window
and what do you do first in that dir?
 
@dyelawn depends on you. I usually add my composer.json or clone the skeleton app (I usually work with zf2)
 
@Ocramius and you've got all the dependencies you'll need in that composer.json?
 
4:48 PM
@dyelawn yep, usually
 
when do you usually make your initial commit (if you use git)
 
1
A: How can/should Zend Framework 2 be included to a Git versioned project?

OcramiusA Zend Framework 2 Project is usually a lightweight skeleton application with various installed modules, which usually are on separate dedicated repositories. The main repository isn't usually affected by many changes, so you can create a git repository (fork of ZendSkeletonApplication) for it. ...

this is my approach though
 
Non-scalar Iterator keys are now implemented!
6
 
@Ocramius thanks for this. (not sure if you'll be able to answer, or if this is the right way to ask this question) when you fork a repo to make some changes and include in your own project, how do you maintain autoload? changing the "target-dir" in composer.json?
 

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