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3:34 AM
Gravatar's been pwned
 
 
4 hours later…
7:18 AM
@Tiffany Great -.-
And of course, it's one of the few websites where I still use a non-generated password...
 
@IluTov I've not read that PWs have been compromised
Data scrape of semi-public info from the looks of it
 
@MarkR Ok. They changed something about their login process anyway, they're using wordpress now? I don't even remember creating a wordpress account
 
Same company
 
Wes
7:37 AM
is there a mathematical term i can use for a list of asc-ordered integers, like [1,7,8,9,9,10,20,30,100,200,201,202] ?
apart idk, OrderedIntegersList
 
7:50 AM
@Danack ok, done
 
Wes
class SortedNonNegativeIntegersList{
that'll do -.-
 
 
1 hour later…
9:00 AM
Hello to @all

is there any way to override the method by changing its signature?
 
9:19 AM
@VivekPawar Changing the signature of overridden methods is allowed, as long as it follows LSP. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liskov_substitution_principle If that's your question ^^
 
Thanks, @IluTov for the suggestion but it gives a warning of not being compatible with the parent class.
 
@VivekPawar Then you're not following LSP :) You'll have to post the two signatures for somebody to point it out.
 
9:40 AM
@IluTov got the point. Thanks for helping.
 
10:03 AM
Can I get any help regarding Algolia multiple indices search results grouping?
I have posted my issue on StackOverflow: stackoverflow.com/questions/70243644/…
 
 
1 hour later…
11:29 AM
Morning
 
12:10 PM
@ln-s \o,
 
o/
 
\o
 
cmb
ho ho ho :)
 
Found the germanic guy
:D
There's only 24 and 25 in latin america, and the 8th, no krampus
pretty dope in austria tho
 
cmb
12:33 PM
but there is santalathe ;)
 
We have Santana, does that help ?
 
@Wes Sequence?
 
1:19 PM
Morning
 
1:54 PM
@cmb with all his kitten-elves? :D
 
 
1 hour later…
3:11 PM
@RemiCollet Fedora 35 is installing now - will you have a few minutes in a while for some hand holding as to how to reproduce that bug that you think you found?
 
3:22 PM
@Derick I'm online for, probably until 8pm (Europe/Paris)
 
OK. First of all, how do I ssh into a Fedora Box? yum install sshd says it can't find sshd...
 
very probably already install (openssh is the package name)
 
ssh <ip> seems to hang
 
you probably only have to launch the service (system enabled --now sshd)
don't understand why it is not by default (it is for RHEL...)
 
hm, maybe some vm network woos
wonder why it had NAT, I guess that was the problem
that, and I had to systemctl enabled it
 
3:36 PM
We have this going in our company slack @salathe
(amongst many others) :p
 
@RemiCollet Why does it keep redownloading this file?

INFO: installing package(s): php-devel
No matches found for the following disable plugin patterns: local, spacewalk, versionlock
local 9.9 kB/s | 3.8 kB 00:00
local 2.2 MB/s | 58 MB 00:26
 
@Derick whihch file ?
 
that "local" file
My problem is now, within the mock shell:

# git clone git@github.com:xdebug/xdebug.git
Cloning into 'xdebug'...
ssh: Could not resolve hostname github.com: Temporary failure in name resolution
fatal: Could not read from remote repository.
 
This is the repo metadata (can be tuned with some ack)
ah... damned... no network in mock
 
o_O
 
3:46 PM
@Derick in /etc/mock/templates/fedora-rawhide.tpl
metadata_expire=0 => add some higher value (to avoid metadata reload on each yum command)
 
ugh, vim isn't installed by default? :-)
 
no, this is really a minimal chroot
 
@PeeHaa PeeHaa Claus?
 
I meant outside of the chroot
 
Aye
There is also an elf and reindeer version
And obviously several rebeccapieter versions
 
3:48 PM
@RemiCollet But this is all theory if I don't have network in the mock
 
@Derick IIRC, nano is now installed by default, no vim (yes this is stupid)
 
where is the mock chrooted to?
 
@Derick yes, I'm seraching the proper config for network
@Derick the proper way to enter the chroot is "mock -r ... shell"
 
I know, but if I can use git around it, then I don't need network
 
(it is somewhere in /vali/mock/fedora.../root
@Derick mock have a --enable-network
(cli option)
 
3:51 PM
my trick worked too ;-)
 
4:05 PM
@RemiCollet How do I get PHP's debugging symbols?
 
4:17 PM
@Derick you need the php-cli-debuginfo and php-debugsource
 
No match for argument: php-debugsource
No match for argument: php-cli-debuginfo
Error: Unable to find a match: php-debugsource php-cli-debuginfo
 
usually "yum debuginfo-install php-cli" does the work (and is proposed by gdb)
 
In the mock?
(because that doesn't work)
 
try mock -r fedora-rawhide-i686 install php-cli-debuginfo --enablerepo fedora-debuginfo
(yum debuginfo-install is simpler, but for base system, not in the chroot)
 
yeah mean mock -r fedora-rawhide-i386 --install php-cli-debuginfo --enablerepo fedora-debuginfo
, right?
Error: Unknown repo: 'fedora-debuginfo'
 
4:23 PM
strange.... it should exists....
@Derick ... searching ....
 
OK :-)
in any case, it seems to crash in:
#0  0x567813db in format_converter ()
#1  0x56782675 in ap_php_vsnprintf ()
#2  0xf74e6388 in xdebug_str_add_va_fmt (xs=0x56f57e60, fmt=0xf751a25d "{fiber:%08X}", argv=0xf66acea0 "L\203\365V") at /tmp/xdebug/src/lib/str.c:114
And I'm not thinking I am sending it the wrong arguments...
 
let me try that
 
@Derick yes, the call, from what I've checked seems fine, but as the stack looks corrupted... may happen elsewhere
 
Inquiry. On 3v4l's Performance tab, it reports both sys and user time. Are those exclusive of each other, or does one include the other?
 
4:33 PM
the stack isn't corrupt, it seems like a fiber thing. Maybe @Trowski has an idea?
Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
0x567813db in format_converter (odp=0xf66ace1c, fmt=0xf751a25d "{fiber:%0X}", ap=0xf66acea0 "L\203\365V6\271M\367\256\226aVR\n\202V+\n\202V`~\365V\230\317", <incomplete sequence \366>) at /usr/src/debug/php-8.1.1~RC1-1.fc36.i386/main/snprintf.c:916
(gdb) bt
#0  0x567813db in format_converter (odp=0xf66ace1c, fmt=0xf751a25d "{fiber:%0X}", ap=0xf66acea0 "L\203\365V6\271M\367\256\226aVR\n\202V+\n\202V`~\365V\230\317", <incomplete sequence \366>)
@RemiCollet I now get this warning in gdb:
Download failed: No route to host. Continuing without source file /usr/src/debug/php-8.1.1~RC1-1.fc36.i386/main/snprintf.c.
916 /usr/src/debug/php-8.1.1~RC1-1.fc36.i386/main/snprintf.c: No such file or directory.
Missing separate debuginfos, use: dnf debuginfo-install bzip2-libs-1.0.8-10.fc36.i686 cyrus-sasl-lib-2.1.27-16.fc36.i686 glibc-2.34.9000-26.fc36.i686 keyutils-libs-1.6.1-3.fc35.i686 krb5-libs-1.19.2-4.fc36.i686 libbrotli-1.0.9-6.fc35.i686 libcom_err-1.46.4-1.fc36.i686 libcurl-7.80.0-2.fc36.i686 libedit-3.1-40.20210910cvs.fc36.i686 libidn2
i don't think that's important though
 
indeed...
 
cmb
 
@cmb So exclusive of each other. Gotcha.
 
4:49 PM
@Derick Unless you're overflowing the stack, I wouldn't think so.
 
@Derick sorry, have to go, will be online tomorrow morning (quite early)
 
@Trowski I don't think I can overflow the stack by calling ap_php_vsnprintf — and it worked fine 5 times before in the same script (github.com/xdebug/xdebug/blob/master/tests/base/bug02036.phpt)
 
What do you mean it worked fine 5 times before? Does it always fail on the fifth call, or?
 
0b1000010011 is not a bareword?
I'm guessing the 0b1 is something that's recognized by the engine, cause it's binary
 
@Trowski 6th I think in this case, when creating a key for a fiber...
not sure how I can show this to you unless you want a live video or so @Trowski?
It also does not happen for my locally, only on Remi's Fedora 36 that isn't out yet.
 
cmb
5:04 PM
@Tiffany yes, that's an integer literal
 
cheers
 
@Derick I could. Not sure how much help I'd be. Humor me and try setting fibers.stack_size=8M
 
same crash
why would something crash in format_converter? Wrong data sizes to a format argument perhaps? but what else can it be
You'd expect this, right?

#10 0x5687f5ff in zend_fiber_trampoline (data=...) at /usr/src/debug/php-8.1.1~RC1-1.fc36.i386/Zend/zend_fibers.c:291
#11 0x5677d74f in make_fcontext () at make_i386_sysv_elf_gas.S:89
#12 0xffff9844 in ?? ()
Backtrace stopped: previous frame inner to this frame (corrupt stack?)
 
Not really, I thought it would know that make_fcontext was the bottom of the stack.
I've never tried on i386 though.
 
hm
 
5:15 PM
I'd be curious if a backtrace looked similar on Fedora 35.
 
Doesn't crash there.
But I think I can find out
Not 32bit though
 
Should be 32-bit to be meaningful.
 
fedora 35 does not have php 8.1
so... not sure how to do that any way
 
If we're just curious if a backtrace ends with the same notice, you could try installing ext-fiber.
 
[derick@fedora ~]$ sudo pecl install fiber
No releases available for package "pecl.php.net/fiber"
 
5:25 PM
yeah, we haven't done a pecl release. Can you clone and compile it manually?
 
git link because I'm lazy please?
 
Installed, now what would you like me to run?
 
tests/unfinished-fiber-with-throw-in-finally.phpt, place a breakpoint on src/fiber.c 134
or examples/read-write.php
Could start there.
 
I don't know, but it stops at line 88
Breakpoint 1, zend_observer_fiber_switch_notify (to=0x0, from=0x7ffff748d100) at /home/derick/ext-fiber/src/fiber.c:88
88		for (element = zend_fiber_observers_list.head; element; element = element->next) {
Missing separate debuginfos, use: dnf debuginfo-install php-cli-8.0.13-1.fc35.x86_64
(gdb) bt
#0  zend_observer_fiber_switch_notify (to=0x0, from=0x7ffff748d100) at /home/derick/ext-fiber/src/fiber.c:88
#1  zend_fiber_switch_to (fiber=0x7ffff748d100) at /home/derick/ext-fiber/src/fiber.c:134
#2  0x00007ffff73c8de5 in zim_Fiber_start (execute_data=<optimized out>, return_value=0x7fffffffa8
but that's 64bit
 
5:41 PM
Yeah, well that's clearly junk after #4.
I assume #4 is trampoline in the x86_64 assembly.
 
not sure how to find that out :-)
let me install some more debug info stuff
 
With debug ingo installed:
(gdb) bt
#0  zend_observer_fiber_switch_notify (to=0x0, from=0x7ffff748d100) at /home/derick/ext-fiber/src/fiber.c:88
#1  zend_fiber_switch_to (fiber=0x7ffff748d100) at /home/derick/ext-fiber/src/fiber.c:134
#2  0x00007ffff73c8de5 in zim_Fiber_start (execute_data=<optimized out>, return_value=0x7fffffffa860) at /home/derick/ext-fiber/src/fiber.c:349
#3  0x0000555555844585 in ZEND_DO_FCALL_SPEC_RETVAL_UNUSED_HANDLER () at /usr/src/debug/php-8.0.13-1.fc35.x86_64/Zend/zend_vm_execute.h:1755
#4  execute_ex (ex=0x7ffff7453000) at /usr/src/debug/php-8.0.13-1.fc35.x86_64/Zend/zend_vm_execute.h:54204
 
Try line 188 instead.
 
Breakpoint 2, zend_fiber_execute (context=<optimized out>) at /home/derick/ext-fiber/src/fiber.c:188
188			zend_call_function(&fiber->fci, &fiber->fci_cache);
(gdb) bt
#0  zend_fiber_execute (context=<optimized out>) at /home/derick/ext-fiber/src/fiber.c:188
#1  0x00007ffff73ca06e in zend_fiber_trampoline (transfer=...) at /home/derick/ext-fiber/src/fiber_asm.c:41
#2  0x00007ffff73ca0bf in make_fcontext () at make_x86_64_sysv_elf_gas.S:71
#3  0x0000000000000000 in ?? ()
Yeah, that looks the same
 
5:47 PM
The stack should be initialized with make_fcontext. I'm surprised a bit that gdb doesn't know to stop there.
My experience is mostly limited to gdb on Ubuntu.
 
I am pretty sure it looked the same on Debian
This is local, with PHP 8.0 on Debian (unstable):
#0  zend_fiber_execute (context=0x7ffff425d460)
    at /tmp/ext-fiber/src/fiber.c:188
#1  0x00007ffff44c6133 in zend_fiber_trampoline (transfer=...)
    at /tmp/ext-fiber/src/fiber_asm.c:41
#2  0x00007ffff44c636f in make_fcontext () at make_x86_64_sysv_elf_gas.S:71
#3  0x00010102464c457f in ?? ()
#4  0x0000000000000000 in ?? ()
 
lldb on macOS plays a little nicer:
(lldb) bt
* thread #1, queue = 'com.apple.main-thread', stop reason = breakpoint 2.1
  * frame #0: 0x0000000100441052 php`zend_fiber_execute(transfer=0x0000000102e00fc0) at zend_fibers.c:475:43 [opt]
    frame #1: 0x00000001004408d7 php`zend_fiber_trampoline(data=<unavailable>) at zend_fibers.c:287:2 [opt]
    frame #2: 0x0000000100314e2f php`trampoline at make_x86_64_sysv_macho_gas.S:69
 
hmh
 
6:06 PM
Going back to Fedora 36, what address is causing the sigsegv?
 
0x567813db in format_converter (odp=0xf66ace1c, fmt=0xf751a25d "{fiber:%0X}", ap=0xf66acea0 "l\206\365V6\271M\367\256\226aVR\n\202V+\n\202V\200\201\365V\230\317", <incomplete sequence \366>) at /usr/src/debug/php-8.1.1~RC1-1.fc36.i386/main/snprintf.c:916
You mean that?
 
Yes. I can't really imagine why that would fail…
 
that makes two
 
6:29 PM
It's failing on the call to zend_isinf. What?
 
lol what
                } else if (zend_isinf(fp_num)) {
I'm going to say: broken distro :-D
#if defined(__cplusplus) && __cplusplus >= 201103L
extern "C++" {
# include <cmath>
}
# define zend_isnan std::isnan
# define zend_isinf std::isinf
# define zend_finite std::isfinite
#else
# include <math.h>
# define zend_isnan(a) isnan(a)
# define zend_isinf(a) isinf(a)
# define zend_finite(a) isfinite(a)
#endif
so just the libc isinf then
 
std::isinf somehow isn't defined I guess?
But why would that not fail on the other calls?
 
right, that makes little sense
 
For that matter, why is it in that branch? There is no H modifier, correct?
 
correct
fmt=0xf751a25d "{fiber:%0X}"
 
6:39 PM
Right right… so wtf?
 
0X is kinda pointless though, not?
like the 0 isn't going to do anything
 
JRL
I'd appreciate some guidance on PR's. Basically, how complete, in your personal subjective opinions, should the PR be before an RFC is voted on? I have some fundamental things that need to be resolved, but I think it would require time from Joe, or Dmitry, or someone like that. But I know where those things are and roughly what they are.
My thinking was that it's probably not worth time from someone with those skills unless it looks like it'll actually be included.
 
RFCs are done on the idea, and then they are pending implementation.
@Trowski Let's see if I can single step
 
JRL
ah, so i probably have a more complete PR than most RFCs.
 
@Trowski Gah, not build from source... 916 /usr/src/debug/php-8.1.1~RC1-1.fc36.i386/main/snprintf.c: No such file or directory.
 
6:44 PM
@Derick I guess set the padding char, which doesn't matter for X I think.
 
it does for %08X
 
Wouldn't hurt to try removing it and see if the result changes.
 
hm, why isn't it %04X or %08X then... I use this in the code:
1036		xdebug_str_add_fmt(tmp, "{fiber:%0" PRIXPTR "}", ((uintptr_t) fiber));
but again, why does it work the first 5 times.
 
You likely don't need the cast to uintptr_t (not that should matter here)
 
You provided that line ;-)
no effect though, and the same crash
Curiously, all that valgrind says, is:
==4075== Process terminating with default action of signal 11 (SIGSEGV)
==4075==  General Protection Fault
==4075==    at 0x4893DB: format_converter (snprintf.c:916)
==4075==    by 0x48A674: UnknownInlinedFun (snprintf.c:1092)
==4075==    by 0x48A674: ap_php_vsnprintf (snprintf.c:1141)
It's usually more informative about what sort of error (dual free, out of memory space, etc)
 
6:50 PM
Still sounds like it's overflowing the stack.
But that's such a small stack, I highly doubt it.
 
7:05 PM
@Trowski it's even weirder:
(gdb) next
111		size = xs->a - xs->l;
(gdb) next
113		va_copy(argv_size, argv);
(gdb) next
114		n = vsnprintf(xs->d + xs->l, size, fmt, argv_size);
(gdb) step
ap_php_vsnprintf (buf=0x56f50e70 "", len=1025, format=0xf751a25d "{fiber:%X}", ap=0xf66acea0 "\f\206\365V6\271M\367\256\226aVR\n\202V+\n\202V \201\365V\230\317", <incomplete sequence \366>) at /usr/src/debug/php-8.1.1~RC1-1.fc36.i386/main/snprintf.c:1140
1140	{
(gdb) next
1141		size_t cc = strx_printv(buf, len, format, ap);
(gdb) step
strx_printv (ap=0xf66acea0 "\f\206\365V6\271M\367\256\226aVR\n\202V+\n\202V \201\365V\230\317", <inco
why would it jump from line 516 to 916? on a next with the while (*fmt)
 
Dec 2 at 1:54, by Danack
@JRL just turn JIT off. tbh the PR's for RFCs don't need to be absolutely complete, and don't need opcache or stuff to be done, otherwise only 2.5 people would be able to do any RFCs.
imo.
 
JRL
yep. i think it's ready.
i guess just improvements to the wiki page are left
 
dinner now
 
@JRL Don't bother with OpCache/JIT, a branch which is playable, if not complete is already pretty good
 
JRL
well, i already did updates to both
though i suppose my JIT updates are going to need to be walked back in any case
i doubt i did them in the best way
 
7:29 PM
@JRL "i feel like the RFC does need something there" - out of interest, why? If anything, it needs fewer, but maybe lead into the proposal section less jarringly with "Currently it is not possible for operator overloads to be implemented in PHP code.".
 
JRL
that line was removed a few days ago :) probably need to refresh
 
But.....I will await your words on why 'operator' as a keyword is a good choice. That's going to ruffle feathers, even if it is neat.
 
JRL
operator as a new keyword might be something that i make as a separate vote tbh
 
> i make as a separate vote
 
Anyone knows of PHP code that will generate a ZEND_INIT_FCALL opcode? I need to add a test for something, but I can't seem to figure out what are the conditions for this to be emitted
Even by staring at zend_compile.c
 
JRL
7:32 PM
it is more future proof, and @bwoebi strongly advocated for it and volunteered to write the patch.
however, i wouldn't want the RFC to be entirely killed for that reason only.
so i think it's better and the RFC doc explains why now a bit, but we could have a secondary vote about using pure magic methods or the operator keyword
 
That's not a great plan......at least one person has to have thought through all the implications, and be sure that the stuff being proposed is either i) the best possible choice, ii) so trivial that it doesn't matter.
 
JRL
i think it is the best possible choice
i also think it's a stupid reason to block the whole feature
 
If you can write why it's more future proof, that could be enough. But just chucking stuff to a vote when there's no presentation of why it's the right choice is the path to drama.
You want the feature. Everyone who is ambivalent about it, and/or might have tooling that analyzes PHP code could be switched from abstaining to voting no, or voting yes to abstaining.
 
JRL
There are four main advantages outlined in the RFC:

1. It allows method modifiers for operators to be changed/controlled independently of functions.
2. It visually separates operator implementations for PHP developers as something that will change engine behavior and not just object behavior.
3. It doesn't restrict future scope because it doesn't limit future overload implementations to existing infixes by allowing the function string to be a variety of symbol combinations not possible (or desired) in function names.
all four of these are in the RFC
 
Have a video.... youtube.com/watch?v=_ahvzDzKdB0&ab_channel=BillPugh ......explaining what something is, a significant distance after it has been used is not a great strategy....
 
JRL
7:47 PM
That section should be prior to examples you think?
 
almost certainly. But imo the first 2 are aesthetic choices that people are goign to find unconvincing. The 3rd one people won't understand, and the 4th one is a little meh also.
Is it a parser problem that public function /(int|float $other, bool $left): Number can't be used?
 
JRL
yes, and the parser could be updated for that, however, function () couldn't easily be done since functions can be returned by reference this way
function &amp;()
gah
the first one isn't purely aesthetic
for instance, suppose in the future we wanted to allow an operator to be "greedy". it fires its implementation first from the left or right. this would enable use to add a method modifier instead: public greedy operator +()
im not saying that is a great feature necessarily, but allowing operator specific modifiers isn't purely aesthetic imo
 
@JRL This should be in the RFC (if not) for why adding a keyword is desireable
 
@Girgias bearing in mind, I try to stay away from opcodes, isn't that just a function call ? - function foo(){} foo(); - 3v4l.org/eX3Ge/vld
 
8:04 PM
Hum, maybe, but then I don't need to do a lookup of the function and could just use the symtable directly, which seems weird as the function might not be defined (or the opcode is doing some unnecessary stuff...)
Might be an idea to add an assertion, and see what tests fails
 
8:17 PM
okay, I think I found a way to trigger that opcode
Spoiler: he did not
 
9:03 PM
Woops
 
JRL
9:52 PM
okay, well i've addressed several of your suggestions @Danack and @Girgias. I think i'll bring this back to the list for discussion this weekend.
 
10:34 PM
@JRL I'm missing in the RFC text what happens when the type signature is not permitting the other operand. Specifically this sounds like it's restricting it to the existence of operator only and not to the combination of type and operator:
> If the left operand doesn't support the operation (i.e. it doesn't implement the relevant operator method) then the engine will retry the operation using the right operand.
 
JRL
If the signature exists but it forbids the type of the other operand, the program exits with a TypeError immediately instead of optimistically checking the other operand for a compatible implementation.
 
@JRL I still strongly disagree with that choice, but it should be clear in the RFC text.
Also you have two instances of "InvalidOperator" instead of "InvalidOperatorError" in your RFC text.
 
JRL
why do you think it should be different?
ah, thanks, i thought I caught all those
 
cmb
@bwoebi so if $a doesn't support operator -, it'll do $b - $a? ;)
 
@cmb (that's what the $left parameter is for)
 
JRL
10:39 PM
@cmb it's smarter than that :P it would try to do $b::+($a, false) (where false tells the operator method that it is the right operand)
 
@JRL because it inhibits extensibility. Let's say we have a library defining a class with bignum math. Now you want to extend that system with your class Fractional - we obviously want to be able to add Fractional to BigNum from that library and make both $myfractional + $mybignum and $mybignum + $myfractional work.
 
cmb
ah, thanks (long RFC; need to read completely :)
 
JRL
@cmb it's nearly half the size it used to be if you can believe that
 
and this needs to call $myfractional's +() operator in both cases as BigNum has no idea of Fractional.
 
JRL
@bwoebi That should still work because Fractional would be a subclass of BigNum and satisfy the type requirement?
 
10:40 PM
@JRL but then the wrong overload gets called
the $mybignum's +() operator gets called
which has no idea how to properly add the fractional to itself
 
JRL
@bwoebi oh i see what you mean. there's not a way to handle that which isn't really, really messy or expensive.
i did consider that, but doing those kind of inheritance checks on every operator opline would be much more expensive than devs expect operator oplines to be
 
@JRL polymorphic cache?
 
JRL
@bwoebi personally, im all for that as future scope or something like that
 
@JRL is there any specific reason, why you wouldn't include it in the current RFC? (except for the fact that it needs to be implemented)
 
JRL
the TypeError immediately instead of being optimistic was because of this problem actually. i wanted the dev to get an error as soon as possible if they were doing something that was likely to cause issues with the program
 
10:45 PM
@cmb Well, I forgot extensions could do weird things
But I don't know how one can write a test to check for the undefined function case within php-src without doing such blackmagic
 
JRL
@bwoebi well, that implementation detail isn't small (for me). but besides that, i think it's the kind of thing that will be difficult for voters to understand until it's "in the wild" and they see the feature in action.
it was quite difficult at first to explain why commutativity breaking wasn't a bad thing for this, for instance
there's a lot of domain knowledge here that wouldn't expect everyone to just understand
 
cmb
@Girgias I guess it's not possible, but if you want to cover that code, you could do some black magic in ext/zend_test.
 
@JRL … well, that's just simple maths, that multiplication is not necessarily commutative in every space in which it can be defined…
but obviously, not everyone may have that immediate insight
 
@cmb Actually I might have a solution which can still keep the assertion IF extensions can change the compiler flags
 
JRL
@bwoebi right, but not every voter has the background knowledge to understand that at first glance. i think this is something similar.
 
10:50 PM
@JRL yes, that's the RFCs job to explain, just like I did explain it to you right now :-)
 
JRL
@bwoebi Sure. My older RFC tried to do that, but it was nearly twice as long as the current RFC and people simply didn't read it. Like, even in direct replies I frequently responded with something like "The RFC that I just linked you specifically explains why that's not the case"
 
But okay, I'm fine with doing it as a subsequent RFC, but it should be noted in future scope.
 
JRL
will do! this RFC already kind of aims high i feel, i don't want to get greedy, lol.
my original RFC noted that Python's op overloads had that exact kind of polymorphic handler resolution
added to future scope @bwoebi, i'll note the behavior more specifically in the proposal section as well
 
 
1 hour later…
11:59 PM
@JRL Reading through the wiki page now. IMO, the list of reasons for using the operator keyword should lead with why using symbols instead of names is preferred. After reading the first subsection, my thought was "but why would I want to use the symbol instead?"
There are reasons for that listed below, but you should lead with the explicit decision to use symbols because that's what the rest of the design decisions flow from.
 

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