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1:10 AM
Dropping in to say hi. Im the new vp of community here
And this room was linked from a question I asked. :-)
 
1:23 AM
\o
Not as active on Friday night, usually more active on weekdays EU time.
 
1:44 AM
@PeeHaa I've not kept up with the news in a few days... just heard about flash flooding in Turkey. You guys okay?
 
 
1 hour later…
3:10 AM
Didn't see any water, but pool and sea so we are ok :) @StatikStasis
 
 
9 hours later…
12:11 PM
Hello everyone, I just found out that in 8.1 class_exists() returns true on enums. I think this might be a bug. Or is it intended? if yes then what is the purpose of enum_exists?
 
12:31 PM
PDO return phantom rowset and no error when MYSQL_ATTR_USE_BUFFERED_QUERY=FALSE ・ PDO MySQL ・ #81286
 
1:27 PM
@PeeHaa That's good! Wasn't sure which area you were in.
 
1:52 PM
@Rain It's intended. Enums are classes. Not all classes are enums though. class Foo {} var_dump(enum_exists(Foo::class)); will be false.
 
"mutators": {
    "global-ignoreSourceCodeByRegex": [
        ".*::updateParamDescription"
    ]
},
I'm trying to get Infection to not generate mutants for any method named updateParamDescription, but that config seems to prevent any mutant generation...anyone know the right syntax?
.+ isn't any better.
 
@Danack what if you try .*updateParamDescription.*?
 
If only it was that easy for covid
 
Or maybe just .*updateParamDescription
 
@Tiffany same thing. the problem is it's matching too many things, so need to make it more restrictive. Or possibly find and fix the bug in infection itself...
 
2:07 PM
Yeah, seems like a bug, going by the docs, it should be fine?
 
yeah....and I can't see a test for it in their source code, so think it might have just been missed.
 
Welllllllllllllllll fork
 
@Sara ?
 
Nothing specific.
Just..... argh fuck kill
 
2:26 PM
/hug if you want it
 
2:46 PM
Second Pfizer dose is now in my body \o/
 
\o/
I've got mine a week ago too
Hopefully you're doing well
awww @statik you gotta pet that doggo of yours for me
 
Doing pretty good atm
 
morns
 
@Girgias yay!
 
cmb
3:02 PM
@Girgias great! Please follow wiki.php.net/internals/windows/stepbystepbuild_sdk_2 now ;)
 
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
 
cmb
hmm, seems it doesn't work yet :p
 
Anyhoot, I didn't think Mike would be the most reasonable on the nullability intersection type thing
 
He's been volunteering his time in helping a lot recently and I'm happy to see it. Granted it means a lot of PRs to review, but that's the price to pay >.<
 
Yeah been seeing the PRs on php-web
And I still have 400+ files to update for doc-fr...
1 months not doing doc works and that's what you come back to :(
 
3:06 PM
Beats the nonsense issues/PRs opened by AI, though
@Girgias x_x
@Girgias it actually seems like he's taking more time to actively listen to what's being said and spending time to research things, which again, is nice to see
 
Yeah, but I kinda want to make a tweet with the Surprised Pikachu face meme about this whole thread...
 
XD
 
I couldn't find one - is there a wiki page that says what top-posting is, and why people shouldn't do it?
 
3:25 PM
If a few people want to browse through wiki.php.net/rfc/open_release_manifest and offer any suggestions on what else we might benefit from including in an initial version, that would be most appreciated
 
"* Version * Alpha" - formatting looks broken.
 
cmb
@Danack not particularly PHP related: netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html
 
ta
 
4:06 PM
@MarkR you said it would be built into RM tooling, could you explain how it would be built into the tooling?
I think the initial reaction is unease if it produces additional work (speaking as someone who isn't familiar with what RMs have to do)
 
@Ekin Done. =)
 
\o/
 
 
5 hours later…
8:43 PM
@Girgias Are you around?
 
@Crell Kinda yeah
 
Oh hai. I just want to make sure my understanding is correct before I talk out of my butt on the list.

Mixing intersection and union types is
1) Something we definitely want to do in the future when we figure out how to do it nicely.
2) Figuring out the parsing of such a complex rule is going to be a PITA itself.
3) At this time, it's unclear if requiring parentheses rather than relying on conventional priority order is going to be necessary. It may be that Foo&Bar|Baz ends up being just too hard to do without parens, or not, we just don't know.
Is all of that correct?
 
@Crell yeah....but also type SpecificName = Foo&Bar|Baz; and then using ?SpecificName (or SpecificName|null), might be better than allowing arbitrarily complex things as types in code.
 
Got it. That makes my point even stronger. :-)
 
"it's unclear if requiring parentheses " - the people who think the parentheses are optional are clearly insane btw.
 
8:54 PM
I don't believe anyone in the thread has explicitly said that, which is why I wanted to make sure I was correct before I said that.
 
imsho
I think one person did.....and the symfony people have been backing each other up on twitter: twitter.com/jderusse/status/1418591222352994304
Because it's totally awesome for a downstream project to be speaking with a single voice, at the same time they're wondering why they don't get more votes on the upstream project.
 
I don't think it's possible for any strong sub-community to develop and not be problematic for the broader community. The stronger the sub-community gets, the more it naturally fights against the collective interest in favor of its own interest. There's a direct correlation there.
 
There's probably several million people who use PHP, I'd be shocked if 20% of them could confidently state logical operation precedence.
 
Symfony, Laravel, Drupal, doesn't matter who it is.
 
Just wait until Laravel announces it's forking PHP :P
 
9:05 PM
Until they can hire a team of C devs...
 
cmb
they could
 
They do have BlackfireIO which is a branch of Symfony which needs understanding of php-src soo they could
 
Blackfire was bought by Platform.sh, not Laravel.
 
9:22 PM
1) Yes, and my PoC was based on something which does *not* use parenthesis but precedence of | over &, but the typing at function entry/exit is the easy part, the hard part is handling variance, which might need to normalise the types to a canonical form
2) Yeah, especially as I am crappy at parsers
3) Using *only* precedence is possible I think, but it is suboptimal if you want to do something like A&(B|C) because you need parenthesises to do that, or force people to rewrite it as A&B|A&C
4) I've got a maths brain, so precedence of & over | isn't too troublesome for me, but reminder that P
@Crell I didn't even know it got bought
But BlackFire was made by Fabien Potencier, right?
 
@Girgias A few weeks ago.
Yes.
 
Okay okay, well they had the skillset with C devs for doing stuff in php-src
 
:-)
Someone should bug Platform to have those engineers work on php-src directly now.
(Not me; I don't work there anymore.)
OK, large missive posted.
 
9:41 PM
The breakdown at the end is rather well put
 
@Girgias Re #4; I have /never/ been able to keep operator precedence rules straight in my head. Thus I recoil anytime someone talks about trying to eradicate "unnecessary" parentheses. Bitch, no. It's not unnecessary if it aids readability.
 
@Sara Which is a pretty valid argument, I'm just used to sigil mush because of mathematics and implicit operators...
 
@MarkR The "if we guess wrong" list, or the slap-back on the doomsaying? :-)
 
The outcome list
 
@Crell thanks for putting this into words and not being me, because it does feel that my opinion has just been bluntly disregarded by the SF folks
 
9:56 PM
@Sara yessssssss
 
I am fine being blunt. :-)
 
@Girgias In path it's not so bad, as there are a smaller number of operators. But like... beyond just basic binary ops, add in all the unaries, the weird binaries, the combining binaries that look like unaries, the trinaries...
Like, when the ternary operator's precedence got fixed, do you know who didn't care? Me. Because I have ALWAYS wrapped that shit for my protection.
 
That's also true, but yeah it does feel "eh lets force this in because it is required for us"
When I've also been, the end goal is to get everything
I'm not fundamentally against nullable intersection types, but some of the syntax choices are pretty horrendous IMHO
And I still believe the current limitation is extremely easy to explain
 
Regarding the end-goal of intersection plus union, yeah... I do agree I'd like us to support using (or not) parenthesis, because it should be up to the author of the userspace code.
 
Governments mandate seatbelts in cars, PHP mandates parenthesis in joint union intersections
 
10:02 PM
You can't mix intersection and union types in PHP 8.1, sorry.
 
Not in 8.1, no.
But I think everyone can see we're headed there.
Whether it's necessary or not.
 
But with some sort of nullable syntax you get: "You can mix intersection types with a union but only if the union member is null" which is rather confusing IMHO
 
Precisely.
 
especially when the engine machinery is there to support null/array/bool/int/float/string
 
I'll grant that it looks funky, but in a version or two when that restriction is lifted, it'll look much less funky that allowing ?X&Y but not ?X|Y
 
10:04 PM
As all of those are encoded in the type bitmask
For sure, I'm against ?X&Y because it doesn't make any sense because ?X|Y is not supported
IF support for ?(X|Y) was added with the union types RFC, we wouldn't have this discussion
 
IMO ?(X|Y) doesn't look any better than ?X|Y
 
But having ?(X&Y) without ?(A|B) is... strange
 
Let's just remove ? entirely and require |null for everything. Problem solved.
 
Though ?(X&Y) is superior to ?X&Y
 
\o/
 
10:06 PM
@Crell I'm in.
 
@Sara Which is pretty much why it wasn't included IIRC
 
In fact, forget the types entirely
 
Let's go back to PHP 3
3
 
<!-- php(); -->
HF2K!
ColdFusion!
 
cgi-bin
 
10:08 PM
CGI? Luxury! In my day we just stood next to the webserver swapping documents into the /query folder.
I R BORD
Who wants to play Among Us?
 
I guess I could
 
Anyone? Bueller?
 
@Girgias 8.1 rm patrick is working for blackfire afaik, so they have C programmers :D
 
And skilled ones on top of that
 
10:26 PM
As I grow my team I expect to be dedicating some hours to php src each month. if onlythere was better documentation :p
 
yeah I wish the same
 
It would perhaps be a bit better if the likes of clion weren't 100% useless at jumping to declares etc outside of Zend/
 
Yeah, I stopped using CLion and just use PHPStorm for the reason that at least I get highlithing in phpt files
 
11:25 PM
@MarkR Amen.
 
11:42 PM
@Sara Can we just assume lowest precedence (evaluates last) for the ?, thanks?
 

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