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00:48
This has come up before; There is, in theory, already a mechanism in place for internals voters to nominate and approve non-internals-contributor voters. It's just never been used, and the last time Zeev brought it up people lost their shit.
One problem with the "you need to know what you're talking about" argument is that a whole crapload of people got access through docs contribution, including me. That proves absolutely zero for your knowledge of what RFC would have good or bad implications long-term.
Let's be honest, the current voting electorate is based on "have you paid your dues to php-src (not the community, php-src) in some way that we collectively consider meaningful?" Any claims that the criteria is something else are fundamentally disingenuous.
Anyone with AWS knowledge here?
Need help regarding API Gateway and Cognito
> Don't ask to ask, just ask.
01:04
Okay, so I have a cognito user pool that has 3 types of user groups:
- Candidate
- Admin
- Company

I can create an "Authorizer" and attach it to the API endpoint. It only validates if the ID token is valid or not but it doesn't check if the user belongs to a specific user group
Let's say, I want the API 1 to be only accessible by the "Candidate" group and API 2 to be accessible by "Company" group
Since both of the users are registered via Cognito, the Authorizer will allow the request to be made
Turns out PHP has "always" been an asynchronous language. The "register_shutdown_function" seems to do exactly what the "setImmediate" function does in node.js, which is all you need to implement other event loop functions such as "setTimeout" and "setInterval". Any reasons we shouldn't use "register_shutdown_function" for this?
there are a few people involved with async work but it's a Sunday night, not sure if they're around
@ZahidSaeed seems to me that if you have two api gateways (one for each api), then you can bind groups to IAM roles. Next you grant privileges on the api gateway to the corresponding IAM role.
01:20
@frodeborli I only have 1 API gateway.
And from the dropdown, I select "AWS IAM"
But how does it know which one to use?
And I'm confused if I make a role, which permissions to use for it?
Its overwhelming and has too many options
01:33
@ZahidSaeed yeah, aws is quite overwhelming. If you have one API gateway, I assume you must write some code in your API. It seems to me that Cognito creates a JWT, and that tokens will contain information about which groups a user is assigned to. The API will receive the JWT on every request, so you should decode the token and then you can simply check if the user is member of the required group.
@frodeborli Absolutely agree. The code is always the option. I was wondering to hold the request before it is reached the Lambda function (will lessen the cost too)
@Tiffany yeah, i will come back. It is quite cool to see PHP run code like "setTimeout(function() { echo "foo";}, 500); echo "bar" ; and see barfoo appear. :)
(instead of foobar) which would be the result without register_shutdown_function
02:00
@ZahidSaeed I would put the code for decoding the JWT inside the lambda function. There won't usually be many illegal requests anyway. 99.99 percent of requests should be legitimate, so the cost reduction will be tiny and the complexity may be high.
Generally speaking that is.
02:41
@frodeborli Because stream_select exists and is infinitely better.
I suspect whatever you implemented with register_shutdown_function to be very limited, probably not really doing what you may think.
See amphp/amp for full async PHP framework.
 
5 hours later…
07:24
Date interval calculation not correct ・ Date/time related ・ #81273
07:46
feature freeze eve ... last call for pr's
4
@Trowski you're happy with ABI/API for fibers as they are ? maybe you can find time in the next 12-18 hours to review that, especially ABI ...
08:23
@JoeWatkins Because this mistake has been made a few times in the past: Feature freeze != ABI freeze.
ABI freeze is much later
08:48
@Crell TBH I think we might need to revist who has access to voting as a bunch of people (including me) got a VCS account (and thus voting rights) just so that I could push onto the doc-fr SVN repo, now that docs are on git, it's way easier to just merge stuff without granting a VCS account
the problem is not who has voting rights, but how they are used ... there are cases where someone with a wide understanding of PHP, which they got from only working on docs, has (what I see as) a legitimate reason/right to use their vote ... they are also cases where voting may be harmful because knowledge you got from docs isn't enough to make a good decision ...
there's no clear line, so we can't really ratify this in any way ...
Obviously, but a lot of doc contributors got VCS access rather easily because SVN was a PITA, I'm not saying doc contributors shouldn't have a vote on RFC, but the threshold which was needed to get one was very low
And tbh when you've got over 1000 people who can vote, there seems to be an issue somewhere
it's difficult to define a group of people that should loose their vote, and not include some old timers, and they wouldn't like that ... it's a politically difficult thing to remove voting powers from anyone ...
and the only process we have to do it, would require that those people loosing their vote would vote for it, or not vote against it ... looks like an endless game that nobody can win ...
09:07
Guys, how is Corona Virus going in your country? For us, the next peak just started ... :-(
09:20
The 'easiest' short term solution would be to pre-filter RFCs, requiring highly knowledgeable person(s) to first sign off that the RFC is technically sound and can be reasonably maintained, but with no regards to the benefits of the feature itself.

If majority of said people agree, the voting threshold stays at 66%, if they disagree the RFC author can still chose to continue the vote, but the voting threshold rises to 90%.
09:31
that's a difficult decision to make, whether something can be reasonably maintained requires consideration of the benefits it provides ...
s/maintained/maintained or implemented/
10:05
o/
10:23
o/
10:45
tableflip
@JoeWatkins FWIW, I am aware of the datetime interval issues that are being raised, but haven't found a long enough time block to address it. It'll get done soonish.
@hakre begins raging
11:03
\o/
11:30
@MarkR I don't think we've ever passed RFCs which were totally unreasonable from a maintenance perspective. I'm pretty sure when the core contributors collectively say no on technical grounds the RFC will not make it in, regardless of the vote.
@bwoebi I took another look back and was quite surprised that JIT would pass even the higher threshold despite there only being 1 person in the world who knows how to work it.
@MarkR I think there are like 3-4 people working with the jit
especially there are some arm folks helping … with the arm part
Really? I know of Dimitry, and some Arm guys who are focused on their particular platform, who else regularly is involved?
There are probably only 1-2 people who have full knowledge of compiler -> optimizer -> jit
Well, Nikita, sometimes.
I'm pretty sure if Dmitry got hit by the bus, Nikita could take over.
technically I probably could as well, but I'd need some time to get more familiar first
Well that's somewhat more reassuring than what I originally thought
11:39
@MarkR A jit is not that dark of magic that the bus factor is invariably 1. :-D
@MarkR thanks. I'll do that for now. The rest of the library gives accurate error messages on invalid input (e.g. exact character that is wrong) ....but that can wait for another day.
$obj = function() {}; var_dump($obj != 1); … I see that it emits a notice since forever, but why is that even a notice? I … why would simple comparisons emit notices :-(
I mean … why would you emit a notice for $obj != 1, but not for $obj != "1"?!
12:33
@cmb lol
@bwoebi I think it's a historical implementation artifact
@bwoebi I refactored the code at some point to allow fixing this ... see this TODO: github.com/php/php-src/blob/…
13:09
@NikiC do we intend to fix this? Also: if we fix this, is this going to be a PHP 8.1 only fix?
(I wouldn't mind fixing this on PHP 8.0 as well)
@Shafizadeh In the US, we're around 70% at least one shot. Basically if you're vaccinated, you're fine. If you're not, you're probably also an anti-masker so you're extra susceptible, especially to Delta. So our ERs are filing up again, almost exclusively with people who are deliberately not vaxing or masking. So... it's either nearly over or getting really bad, depending on who you are and where you are.
13:46
@Crell 70% for adult persons though, 55% total population "only".
True.
Under-12 is still a complicated and unknown and rapidly changing quantity.
cmb
cmb
14:00
@cmb gotta wonder why that doesn't just use a normal ini...
cmb
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@NikiC probably nobody cared
14:18
@girgias I was thinking about suggesting a link between the intersection implementation, and the sudden desire of symfony people to have more say in core....but thought people might consider that trolling.
I don't think that's related. It doesn't feel like it.
aye.
Hey @JoeWatkins, I'd like to help push a release of php-memcached, which is officially compatible with PHP-8.0 including a couple PRs and maybe cleaning up a few issues. Looks like everyone but you, including sodabrew, is inactive by now, so please let me know how proceed! Thanks a lot.
s/how proceed/how to proceed/
@Danack See what happens when we allow people to do stupid things for BC? :|
14:32
yeah, it gives them years to upgrade their stuff. And they can change that code style choice in the 6 months before 8.1 is out.
That seems unlikely.
If we end up allowing intersections to be nullable, the syntax should be ?(X&Y) or (X&Y)|null for forward compatibility, yes? Or is ?X&Y actually fine? I don't care for that syntax for readability, even if it's technically fine.
When we had the discussion on github around nullable unions |null was favoured.
Only makes sense as ? isn't allowed with unions.
@MarkR pressure could be applied to them: wiki.php.net/rfc/remove_legacy_null_default
14:37
Whatever would be most forward compatible with future mixed union/intersection and is the least work for @Girgias is fine by me.
good news - pretty sure that is the current situation...
@Danack I seem to vaugely remember we actively chose to support it a couple of releases back on BC grounds.
yeah.....but having a few years of BC is one thing.....having forever BC is another.
Aye, what I was trying to express is that we should have killed it earlier, now people who think that Foo $foo = null is a good idea are going to demand the same behaviour applies to everything in future.
@MarkR to be clear, Foo $foo = null as opposed to ?Foo $foo = null
14:45
@Tiffany Yes.
Typed properties already enforce the ?, I believe. It's just parameters that have that legacy
@cmb Aye :D
...drafting a reply...
@Danack I think most people would indeed consider that trolling :')
It should be one of the following `?(X&Y)`, `(X&Y)|null` or `X&Y|null`

However if we support `?(X&Y)` then we should also support `?(X|Y)`, however during the discussion this was deemed too confusing and dropped from the RFC, so this is IMHO a no go.
`X&Y|null` is also contentious because of the precedence rules with | which many people aren't fan of, so the remaining one is `(X&Y)|null`, but then you get into the confusion as to why you can have a union with null but nothing else, when the syntax is there and supported in the parser...
is it possible to see the full list of people using the emoji buttons on github ?
@Trowski ?X&Y is pretty much unambiguous as we can exclude the (?X)&Y meaning as this would be equivalent to X&Y, which would not make any sense.
@bwoebi It's not whether it is ambiguous or not, it's the inconsistency as @Girgias pointed out with ? and union types.
Since we didn't allow ? with unions, why would we suddenly allow it with intersections?
@Trowski I thought the point was allowing it for both cases
14:55
TBF I don't care about PHP supporting nullable intersection types, it just ain't me who's going to code it and make it work
@Girgias Of those options: (X&Y)|null seems the most unambiguous and therefore preferred. I'm not sure the lack of typedefs would make me vote against it, but I very strongly want to see typedefs happen before we open the floodgates too far.... if possible.
@Sara I agree on this. Though simple nullability is not yet opening the flood gates :-)
@Sara Which is reasonable, honestly I would have liked working on that with possibly a new autoloading mechanism for PHP 8.1, but intersection types just took so much time.
@bwoebi Technically ?X&Y is unambiguous, as you can't be a Y if you're null, therefore it can only mean ?(X&Y), but I don't think that's an immediately obvious conclusion for a user scanning a codebase to come to.
But then I have no clue how to make that work in the parser, because we already bodged it pretty hard just to get pure intersection types working, and I don't want to deal with variance code for a while...
14:59
@bwoebi Well... okay. Yes. nullable is special in its own regard.... hrmmmm
Of course, if we could typedef X&Y to a base name, then ?XAndY would be entirely unambiguous ;p
@Sara (?X)&Y just means (X|null)&Y or expressed as (X&Y)|(null&Y) == (X&Y) as null&Y is an impossible type
/me notices the horse is dead, but keeps beating it anyway
@Girgias I assume you've seen github.com/php/php-src/pull/7259
@bwoebi Your sets broke slightly... it's (X&Y)|(null&Y) => X&Y only as null&Y is impossible
@Trowski I have not, I just got a SOchat ping and am spewing hot-takeness
@Trowski Just now, I'm taking a break from wall painting and cleaning the pool... which I need to get back to, so I'll have a look at later
15:05
@Sara I imagine switching the parser change there to (intersection)|(type) and enforcing that type is null would be doable, yes?
/me really needs to dig into the parser to understand it better.
@Sara you got what I meant :-P
I would say: `| '(' intersection_type ')' '|' type { /* validate $6 is NULL */ $$ = $3; $$->attr |= ZEND_TYPE_NULLABLE; }`
Gives us quite a lot of runway for future compat and is unambiguous, yes.
@bwoebi I did :)
@Trowski the implementation detail really don't matter....the feature freeze is today. Hacking stuff in at the last minute, just because the symfony project made a bad code style choice is not a good idea.
@Danack Setting aside the style choice, nullable intersections do make sense. Trying to cram it on the day of feature freeze though… yeah, problematic.
$2 and $5 in that code sample because counting is hard.
Also, you could probably use T_STRING instead of type since null is the only type you're allowing, but I like the idea of keeping the parse chain a little more pure
15:15
@Sara No idea if that's something that can be pushed in right now. Seems reasonable to me, but others may disagree.
cmb
cmb
@Danack CS is irrelevant; neither implicit nor explicit nullability is supported for now
...it is too hot for me to think.
@Trowski For 8.1? It's already too late, regardless of syntax.
We're fine for 8.2 though
Random question though, what does the parse do with function foo(X&Y $bar = null) {...} ?
@Sara That's fair. Nullability is reasonable IMO, but this should have been addressed weeks ago, not today.
Like, does that BC support for implicit nullability through defaults actually work?
15:17
I believe that's how this originally came up. It was adding nullability when it should not have.
Hence my question on list: What are the odds of mixed intersection/union in 8.2? If high, then we don't need to do any special casing for null because we'll get it for free from that anyway. If low, then some half-way solution for null is useful.
> If low, then some half-way solution for null is useful.
the feature freeze is today.
It could be a halfway solution for 8.2. (And... it's not today, but tomorrow, no? Because pipes doesn't technically close until tomorrow, and it was a last-second RFC.)
It's better for a feature to be left only partially usable than to hack in solutions that can't be changed for years at the last minute.
oh - feature freeze eve . As I said - I am hot.
Right, a single version of "intersection types are not nullable, Sorry" is not unreasonable, especially if we know it's only going to be a single version.
15:21
@Crell This.
@Danack @Trowski its a reasonably "detailed" thing to miss in tests before feature freeze, it feels to me being one of these tiny little things of an RFC that get discovered and adressed after the fact
It's not the '00s, we have version releases yearly now. We can be patient.
Though... it's not like we haven't fiddled with things post-freeze anyway at times when justified. (cough Attributes cough)
@beberlei The RFC was rather explicit about being pure intersection though.
In the case of Attributes, syntax was going in that we would NOT be able to fix later.
This is the opposite.
We're avoiding adding syntax so that we CAN fix it later.
Also, nobody ever anywhere should hold up Attributes as an example of anything going at all right.
15:24
@Trowski its not really explicit for me, just using the word pure, and by the examples A&B|C not being supported its easy to miss that nullability is not possible. the RFC does not mention once nullability, and has no example with null.
15:37
Hi Guys, am not sure if this is possible. I have foreach which has 3 arrays (formula) and I only want to display 1 array at a time and it will depend on the value of the formula inside the array. Please see screenshot prnt.sc/1d4s5p0
@winresh24 Why should it not be possible? Have you tried it already?
yes, but am not sure how to do it
so what have you tried?
I got it working :)
Thanks :)
15:56
Naming question: I'm writing a method that instantiates and returns an XPath object based on a given DOMDocument object... createXPathObj(), getXPathObj(), makeXPathObj(), maybe one of these? maybe something else entirely?
I guess I'll use create, going by stackoverflow.com/questions/3184197/…
yeah....though I'd personally either drop the obj, or spell it fully.
@Trowski gist.github.com/660b105e6894a6341792a479cda8f76b this should be roughly enough. Assuming we like the (X&Y)|null syntax
16:13
@Sara Use zend_string_equals_literal_ci for comparing "null"
@bwoebi Ah. I knew there was a better method, but CBA to look for it. :)
That said: 1/ STILL too late for 8.1 2/ Cue the nullability syntax bikeshed.
@Sara I think it's not too late if we find consensus to do that without RFC. … But let's first see how the discussion evolves :-)
I think that's pretty much what a beta (= a period after feature freeze) is for: finding glaringly lacking features etc. We need to obviously assess whether we really want it.
16:35
If we get overwhelming agreement, sure. I honestly don't expect overwhelming agreement.
16:53
@Crell I se
@beberlei It is working as I intended, the fact that I completely forgot about PHP's idiosyncratic implicit null has nothing to do with it, I even had a test for explicit nullability being wrong in the initial commit ( Zend/tests/type_declarations/intersection_types/invalid_types/invalid_nullable_type.phpt in github.com/php/php-src/commit/…) the only thing you can blame the RFC for is that it doesn't spit out the nullability case black on white...
@Sara That's how this conversation even came to be... because I forgot about this PHP idiosyncrasy
Also... it seems we could also accept intersection with a union of a standard type because that variance code seems to be working just fine as it works on a bitmask...
So if we allow (X&Y)|null we could probably also allow (X&Y)|array (which is also an extremely useful case...)
@Girgias People don't look at/read the tests, you know that. (Excluding people named Nikita.)
Yes I do know that, but point being it is working as intended
17:31
@Sara That doesn't cover null|(X&Y), correct?
18:06
pg_fetch_all() last record is the same as previous one ・ PostgreSQL related ・ #81274
18:18
@Trowski yes
@Trowski Correct. That version can be covered by additional rules, but I'd actually prefer to not go overboard at this point. Just provide the minimal until we have a stronger position on approach.
status page, contain bugus value in request duration sometimes ・ FPM related ・ #81275
18:58
so, random_bytes can generate null bytes... I think that should be documented... (and yes, I'm willing to do that, if I can find the right words)
or am I wrong... blah, I thought it could, but now I'm searching through chat and not finding that specific, other than my assumption that it did...
@Girgias its not my intention to say its not working like it should, I am just saying that the nuance of not having nullability did not occur to me while reading the RFC. I agree with you to disable the nullability via = null.
i would have voted for it either way
given this was raised in PRs and issues in march by symfony team its a pity they didn't bring it to the list earlier
@Tiffany Yes, it can generate null bytes.
thanks
That's sort of a given being that it's random, but a note in docs as a reminder would probably be a good idea.
agreed
19:22
@beberlei THEY KNEW ABOUT THIS IN MARCH??????
FFS, I though they just learned about this on Friday
19:35
@Girgias I think the people who knew about it in March are possibly not the same people as symfony. But I think your ffs stands.
I hope so
@Girgias hug
thanks
Hey guys
how do I check how much memory is opcache using
@ln-s opcache_get_status()?
He's in the Symfony team? Didn't know that
@Girgias no but derrabus is
mvorisek is involved with Wikipedia I believe
Ah, right, okay okay
@Tiffany If it couldn't generate null bytes then it wouldn't be a very good CSPRNG.
19:51
But yeah if they wanted this dealt in a more "formal" way the list should have been the place to raise this
@Sara I think it should be noted in the docs so that it doesn't come as a surprise.
@Tiffany Concur. Thank you for volunteering. :-)
@Tiffany Sure. Gopher it.
> and yes, I'm willing to do that, if I can find the right words
Possibly a Note block? Random bytes includes null bytes and non-printable characters. Beware.
19:54
I probably will, but may take me a couple weeks :S
If you need to display it, base64 encode it first.
not a warning, because it shouldn't discourage users
I think a note box would be sufficient though
"Note. The data produced by random_bytes() is random. This includes non-ASCII, non-printable, and even null byte characters. Usage of random_bytes() output should take this into account."
What Sara said (or close to).
I like that
and onto the next Monday meeting...
20:37
@CraigFrancis thanks
strange, I get opcache.enable On with phpinfo
opcache_get_status says it's off
:D
21:36
does random_bytes always return octets?
perhaps better: "Use of random_bytes() should rely on this property."
21:51
@hakre I mean... clue is in the name there surely?
byte === octet
1 byte 8 bits hence octet
well I've heard there are systems that have 1 byte = 6 or 7 bits. you perhaps need dig them out nowadays, just wondering how PHP compiles and what happens then on them.
I don't think any computers have had non-8-bit-bytes since the early 1960s.
22:06
Was going to say, the only place you're likely to find a still working non-8-bit-byte system is in orbit.
If that.
just stumbled over this nice project: codepoints.net/basic_latin - you can run it with php -S ... even!
@Crell is that? why then was there for email messaging a 7bit encoding?
also for early Unicode?
ISO C requires CHAR_BIT to be >= 8. I'm not sure if there are any real-world systems where it is > 8, but it seems like it might be possible: stackoverflow.com/q/32091992/538216.
so then I guess PHP won't compile at all on such systems. therefore random_bytes() is octets most likely always ^^
The character encoding is not always the same size as the byte definition.
22:08
@MarkR @Trowski It finally arrived today! Waiting on the whistle right now imgur.com/gallery/wdUd5mK
@StatikStasis Mine arrived today too! Don't make the mistake I did though, only let it steep for about a minute or so.
lmao
At least that's what @MarkR told me I did wrong :P
My mission to convert R11 to yorkshire gold continues apace.
3
@Crell yes, 7bit I guess has network transmission in mind, too for example.
22:10
UTF-16 is a 16-bit character encoding, always implemented on an 8-bit byte architecture.
The only systems with a byte larger than 8 bits were designed by Gina G
... Because she went oh,ah, just a little bit, oh, a, a little bit more. youtube.com/watch?v=KiLw45oAuD0
cmb
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@MarkR oh, never heard of that coffee variant :p
The idea that byte == character is largely an accident of ASCII that we've never quite managed to escape. :-)
/me flags message as offensive.
@Crell UTF-16 is 16 bits, always AFAIK. it has different encoding schemes, like UTF-16BE and UTF-16LE which have the byte-order implication.
22:13
Yes
@Trowski so glad you said something. It's been almost right at a minute when I read your message- ran over and pulled the tea bags out. I'm used to steeping for 4 minutes.
cmb
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@Crell they built LISP machines with 1 byte = 9 bit; I think that was later (~70s)
@Crell in ASCII it is only half a byte == character. which is great.
@cmb Yorkshire Gold is insanely strong. A minute at most, a quick stir, and a squeeze. Put milk in afterwards, not before.
@cmb "They" are criminally insane.
22:14
@hakre ASCII chars require 7-bits.
@MarkR You use sugar in yours or just milk?
@Trowski Pedantically, they require at least 7 bits ^_^
@StatikStasis Sugar and milk.
cmb
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@Crell nope, was actually helpful for GC
@Trowski true, actually what I meant. if you divide by two, it's half :D
22:16
Then the next most important question is do you dunk ginger nuts, chocolate digestives, or something else.
Chocolate digestives should be kept in the fridge or freezer beforehand.
Since it's that strong I wonder if I can make two cups from the bags... just steep the second time for 2 minutes...? At least if I make it right now that is.
I usually buy regular or lemon digestives.
@StatikStasis Yeah a single teabag is plenty for 2 or 3 cups
@hakre Sure, half the byte range. I wonder if someone could be creative with that extra bit… maybe find a way to extend it somehow…
ASCII with only seven bits did not only offer the wiggle room to instantly expand into Latin-1, ... (and many others), it also offered enough room to completely put whole Unicode into an 8bit encoding compatible with ASCII (UTF-8).
@MarkR Really? Brewing more than once is sacrilege with coffee because it just gets bitter.
22:19
It's like the engineering practice that you only use 50% of the resources - just to have enough for everything else.
@hakre I know, I was being facetious. :P
I can usually get 2 cups out of one bag/spoon of leaves. It varies with the tea, though. Rarely I can get 3, but the 3rd is kind of flat. Some are only good for one.
@Trowski If you let it dry out then yes it's a crime against humanity, but grabbing it out one and putting it straight into another works. I'd suggest a teapot if you think that's a frequent occurance though
@Trowski hehe.
... I have a sudden urge to buy a teapot
22:21
One other example for that is the original design of the tar header block. It reserved 256 bytes but only used 128.
@MarkR I love my kettle. Every time it whistles I yell in my best English accent "Kettles ready!! A cup of tea for the big fella!"
By the way- this is really good. Thanks for the recommendation!
Is it an electric kettle or a hobtop one?
@StatikStasis You're welcome. But I am simply a messenger to spread the word about the joy that is Yorkshire Gold... I used to be one of the top 10 until the spiffing brit decided to exploit the rankings and take the top 20 positions for himself.
I have left yorkshire gold steeping up to like ten minutes and it's been fine ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Maybe my taste buds are desensitized or the import is different, or maybe both, I dunno.
Though if it gets lukewarm and milk makes it cold, it is less palpable than if it's hot/warm
Just my experience, your mileage may vary. I'm not a connoisseur like @MarkR is
22:33
@Tiffany If I ever visit you, and you serve me tea that's been brewing for 10 minutes, I'm turning straight back around and flying back to England :|
@MarkR 😂
@MarkR This is much better than that other crap I had. I've been converted! I'm a Yorkshire Gold disciple!
22:48
@MarkR don't worry, I'll let it steep for eleven minutes... <insert r11 joke>
23:15
@StatikStasis there's bedtime and decaf versions
23:48
Not a fan of decaf anytime of day. =P
I can drink coffee/tea right at bedtime and still sleep.
I can't. I may have at one time, but not anymore. Caffeine after a certain time leaves me awake past midnight. It's frustrating.

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