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02:27
Of the ones I've seen, the majority are more like this: https://github.com/boostphp/pipe-operator/blob/main/src/PipeOperator.php

I've written one that's 4-5 lines, but this is PHP. People will make verbose objects out of it on principle.
02:57
Random architecture question. Once nested attributes are a thing, in what situations would you recommend making two related attributes independent vs making one a sub-item of another? Is there ever a reason then to make them separate?
Like:

#[Foo(name: 'foo')]
#[Bar(val: 'bar')]
class Blah {}

vs.

#[Foo(name: 'foo', bar: new Bar(val: 'bar'))]
class Blah {}

When would you want to use the first vs the second?
Assuming here that Foo and Bar relate to the same problem domain/library.
 
6 hours later…
09:21
@Crell Just do the exact same thing but with (...) callable syntax instead of strings in the RFC...?
 
2 hours later…
11:36
Morning
 
1 hour later…
12:42
Morning
Yo @crypticツ long time no see
How are you?
Mormgogn
@samayo Doing alright, surviving =oP. You?
@crypticツ same, surviving most of the time :)
 
1 hour later…
13:50
ITS: Tickets with status Suspended not found when searching by default ・ Website problem ・ #81270
cmb
cmb
14:00
@Jeeves sigh
14:38
@OlleHärstedt I... literally did that already. If you read past the very first section, it says "the rest of this RFC assumes FCC has passed and uses that syntax."
Yeah? Huh.
@Crell No, not what I meant. I mean to remove all cases of using strings as callables.
Or just replace them.
@OlleHärstedt In just the examples, or as a feature?
Just in the RFC text itself.
Any future version would do that. That was simply an artifact of its time, and trying to not be dishonest.

Honestly, the number of people whose response to pipes has been "eew, callable strings, no thanks" pisses me off. That's *not* a function of pipes. That's a function of the rest of PHP sucking. That's unrelated. That so many people in the past year simply can't wrap their head around that being 2 different problems (one of which Joe and I spent a substantial amount of time trying to address) makes me angry.
Wanna place bets if the exact same implementation would be accepted with this small change? :D
14:46
Based on the feedback, it might do better but wouldn't pass.
@cmb has he actually contributed any bug fix? If not, it would be appropriate to tell him to not raise issues like this until he has done so.
@Crell I'm interested in the details of casting unquoted strings to callables if the funcion signature expects it. It was something about the function signature being available only in the opcode phase ("runtime"), and that's already too late?
Anyway, that would make user-land implementations of pipe() more friendly.
$foo |> strlen - that's never going to happen. It's complicated, confusing, and unnecessary now that $foo |> strlen(...) is a thing.
I was thinking pipe($foo, strlen); when pipe = function pipe(mixed $start, callable $c);
But yes, (...) kind of makes all other efforts vane.
Were I to make another attempt, I'd probably figure out how to exclude references entirely (they're pointless in this context), but I don't know what else to do with it to make it palatable. Enough people's responses were "But... why?" that I don't know how else to make the argument, other than writing a whole crapload of code that would use pipe if it could and is therefore extra ugly, leaving it in production for a few years, then using that as a case study.
14:52
Well ye knew beforehand that the value of pipes was mostly based around combining it with partials.
@MarkR Not true. Partials just makes pipes prettier. Their logical value is independent of it.
Well let me rephrase, true or not it's what most the voters believe as a value proposition
PFA removes some boilerplate related to pipe usage, but yes, it's independent. For me. :)
cmb
cmb
@Danack I don't think that he had contributed any fix. Frankly, I don't understand what he's looking for.
@MarkR They are both better with each other, that much is true. PHP voters tend to have a very poor sense of synergistic design.
The natural examples are all things that overlap with comprehensions (arrays) or scalar methods (strings). Which leads people to "why don't we just do scalar methods instead." Which... we've been talking about for 10 years and haven't done, and is fundamentally a weaker approach than pipes (as I've demonstrated). And people seem to be religiously dedicated to ignoring the non-scalar-method-like examples in the RFC itself.
So really, while I'd like to try again at some point, I don't know how given that people just... don't read the RFC.
14:55
An interesting question is how people read the RFC.
Eye-tracking software needed! :D
I was under the impression the reason we hadn't done it is because of fetch rw performance hit?
@OlleHärstedt I base my votes on reddit comments
@PeeHaa The worst possible way to vote. :-)
@MarkR Done which?
@Crell Could have based it off php.net user comments
...
14:59
lol @Danack
@Crell You're a functional man in a mainly object orientated world. Even if introduced pipes, and scalar methods, 99% of people would favour scalar methods in PHP, because javascript, java, C# etc
he might be trying to find some way to help....and we're kind of shit at providing easy things for people to work on, other than the manual....which apparently is too boring for people.
@Crell Scalar methods, and im not denying the additional flexibility of piping, but its uses would be niche and easily replicatable in userland.
I was wondering if it might make sense to add partial creation to closure (e.g. strlen(...)->partial('foo', SomePlaceholder, 'bar)) or if that would have the same problems.
Issue tracker: Allow categorizing reports about bugs.php.net ITS ・ Website problem ・ #81271
> Reporting issues about how you find the tracker difficult to use, when you haven't made any contributions is not helping.
> It takes up time from people triaging the bugs, and figuring out if they need to be urgently looked at.
> Please can you stop opening issues like these until you've made a code contribution. If you're looking for stuff to work on, the docs at github.com/php/doc-en and github.com/php/doc-fr are there for PRs.
fine?
15:21
Yeah, I need plenty of help with doc-fr
I haven't touched it in a month and shit is pilling up
He's Quebecois according to his website.
@cmb he hasn't responded on the bug report I put into feedback, wonder if he will before it's auto-closed
(Quebecish?)
@OlleHärstedt The problem is strlen can refer to a constant, functions and constants are in two different symbol tables, and functions are case insensitive (see: 3v4l.org/bTUdL)
@Danack or confusing, I started over recently by skipping using a VM and building docs on bare metal, and I realized that some of our tutorials need fixing... it's a todo item: github.com/php/web-doc/pull/15
15:33
@MarkR That's kind of what Ruby does. And I expect it would end up more verbose than just writing an arrow function.
Any improved callable-with-values approach will have to be better and more ergonomic than that.
there's enough inaccuracies that it could be problematic for a new person. Only reason I was able to proceed is I have enough of my own documentation and past memories to edge me along. Plus there was a bug that prevent the docs from building on PHP 8 that was fixed just recently
@Danack though, modernizing/sprucing up web-php's code is probably doable for any semi-experienced PHP dev...
The problem with doc PRs is you need to *really* understand what you're describing, AND be good at describing it.

The myth that docs are "they easy task for newbies" is a very harmful myth that we as as the OSS community need to get over.

Signed, a former professional technical writer and published author.
@Crell I'm of the mind that "if I can do it, anyone can" ... or maybe I have a knack for technical writing, I dunno
@Tiffany I suspect that's imposter at work. :-) Good technical writing is a non-trivial skill itself.
Maybe not as advanced a skill or as in need of years of experience as hacking php-src, but it's not the sort of thing "anyone can just do."
but there are plenty of areas that could be helped... digging through phd's and doc-base's code a weekend or two ago and there are plenty of parts that looked unused, but I didn't want to touch for fear of breaking something because I don't fully understand what it's doing
15:40
I'm sure most of the build systems are in desperate need of a rewrite.
But as you say, they need signposting, guidance, and architecture. Crowd-sourced architecture is mud, by definition.
I also need to get better at using arrays :/ need to set aside time to work on that
Basically, there is no excuse for project leaders, of any serious project, to shirk documentation responsibilities. All the excuses are just that: Poor excuses.

And if it's too complicated to document effectively, that is a sign it's too complicated and should get refactored.
@Tiffany No you don't. You need to get better at avoiding arrays, like most PHP developers. :-)
@Crell I need to get better at reading legacy code that uses arrays heavily, so that maybe at some point I can improve the code away from arrays :P
@Tiffany OK, that I'll give you. :-)
Docs should be written in this fashion.
15:44
Some advance from dealing with TYPO3: $foo += [associative list of default values] - That can greatly help minimizing complex conditional branching around possibly missing values.
@Tpojka Looks like I already retweeted that. :-)
@Crell didn't say it was easy. Only that making PRs there has a greater chance of being useful compared to feedback about how he doesn't find the issue tracker easy to use.
@Crell Didn't check that, had it already in likes array. :B
or he could improve the issue tracker instead of complaining about it approximately once a week
when any of us could come up with about 10 more important things to work on for the issue tracker aka:
Is the issue tracker home grown?
15:47
yes
it is
/me cries
maybe just start linking that on every bug report he opens... *cough*
To be fair, "we're all volunteers" is true, but so is "it's not MY job to fix YOUR busted and crappy code just because you're a volunteer."
15:57
I suppose one improvement that could be made is allowing selecting multiple statuses
@Girgias Yes, my question was rather when that happens.
If you have unquoted string at a time when you already have function signature information, then it would be possible to automagically insert (...) or whatever.
But that's not possible if unquoted strings are replaced by constants early in the compiler pipeline.
16:28
@OlleHärstedt I for one would love unified symbol tables
Well. :)
 
1 hour later…
17:40
Is there someway to get chrome to re-arrange the debugger panel with the source code panel, so that one is above the other?
I don't need to see 60 lines of code at once....but would like to be able to read watch values.
looks like you've got plenty of space down the right hand side? Not sure there's way to reposition the internal window though
 
2 hours later…
19:26
Segfault in var[] after array_slice with JIT ・ JIT ・ #81272
20:21
I need a bot like that in our company...
 
2 hours later…
22:06
morns
@mega6382 morning :)
@IluTov maybe 'even if you can't submit changes, being able to read them so you can understand the trade-offs'....or something like that.
> I think I am the most downloaded PHP maintainer.
that's probably the composer people.
...or myself. And it's not obvious to me, that I should have voting rights on core.
@Danack Can you elaborate? I didn't get that.
22:23
"Participate in discussions. Maybe even create an RFC including implementation " - getting involved in discussions doesn't provide the project much value, until people can really grok the trade-offs. Creating an RFC with implementation is quite hard.

Being able to understand (and maybe review) PRs can be a way to get people to learn about core....and understand why some stuff is voted against, even if the general idea is nice.
If it doesn't provide value, why is there a 2 week open discussion period
probably one of the biggest problems PHP has (and has existed for quite a while) is that multiple user-land people think they are giving valuable feedback, when really they are just clogging up the mailing list. e.g. lester and now mike schnikel.
@MarkR you missed the conditional part of that sentence.
people who don't understand php internals don't provide that much useful feedback.
@Danack I think the same is happening on GitHub PRs too, even some of the same people.
There's maybe 4 people in the world with the capacity to fully understand the consequences of any particular RFC beyond the smallest.
yeah. I think I've said already......moving more stuff to github makes the barrier to entry really low, and creates a feedback loops of people who think they are helping, when they are just taking up time.
Jun 19 at 15:28, by Danack
I just finished reading https://www.amazon.co.uk/Working-Public-Making-Maintenance-Software/dp/0578675862 ....the first half and the last ten pages of which are worth reading.
22:30
@IluTov I was thinking Nikita, Dimitry, bwoebi and Sara
@MarkR feel free to explain this to people, but one of the biggest mismatches between userland and php core, is that php core follows fixed release schedules, and userland libraries don't. If they cock up an API choice, they can just move onto the next version. If core cocks up an API design it's pretty much fixed for many years.
@MarkR It was just a silly joke :P
see also all the people who think all the standard library should be altered at once
Well when you can only change things once a year, changing the standard library that way would be... glacial.
@Danack Which is why I'm not sure encouraging non-internals to review PRs is useful. I'm sure they could add value (reviewing tests, making sure the PR is congruent with the RFC, etc) but they still take a significant amount of effort. Most people just won't do that.
@MarkR Oh dang it I meant multiple personality disorder, no wonder the joke didn't land ^^
1 message moved to Trash can
22:36
@IluTov I got the joke :P but I was just clarifying who I thought would be in such a position to highlight that if the discussion pool was limited, we'd have practically no discussion.
Also, for those people who are on their way but aren't quite there yet, there's significant benefit to having someone explain why they're wrong.
@IluTov "Most people just won't do that." - I know. So it's a polite way of saying no, but a few people might learn and then be able to work on core. maybe.
@MarkR Well, it also helps listening to those people. If Nikita says an RFC has significant issues in a way I don't understand I would feel very uncomfortable voting yes.
@IluTov I would agree with that, I've abstained on votes because of such, voting no just because someone else does is effectively breaking the spirit of the 1-person-1-vote rule, but by not voting myself I don't dilute the vote.
If I understand the argument why they're voting no, that's another matter
@MarkR That's a sensible approach. Unfortunately we don't know at this point if userland voters would do the same or throw caution to the wind because they really want some feature.
I wouldn't be in favour of changing it to completely open voting, I think people should have some skin in the game, but the discussions have some benefits. I mean even Reddit has meaningful discussions on RFCs sometimes, granted they also have a bunch of people offering their own personal suggestions
22:49
@MarkR Discussion from userland can certainly be helpful. But they don't need voting rights to do that. I also wonder, if he agreed with most RFC votes from the last two years, why does he need voting rights in the first place?
I think I must have missed something, whom does this relate to? I thought we were just talking in general
...he so fast.
anyone happen to have/know of code that converts "[[-1,-1,-1],[-1,8,-1],[-1,-1,-1]]" into a 2d array?
@Danack Like array_merge(...$array)?
from a string....
23:02
@Danack oh, sorry, I missed that ^^ Depends, does the arity of the arrays change? If not a simple regex would do. If it does, you could even consider the Symfony expression language. Probably overkill.
Either way, parsing this exact format with variable number of elements by hand shouldn't be very hard.
@IluTov ah I see, thanks.
@Danack ... how brave are you?
more foolish than brave....
print_r(eval("return [[-1,-1,-1],[-1,8,-1],[-1,-1,-1]];"));
@MarkR Lol, simple and effective.
23:19
Perhaps that's OTT though, it's JSON isn't it? just json_decode it
@MarkR Yeah, turns out I was way overthinking this.
23:43
As did I. Such is the life of an engineer ;)

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