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12:00 AM
Ahh, yeah
Sometimes a cold wash cloth on the forehead works for me
 
I find sleeping on a towel helps, the little air pockets stop me from feeling like I'm wrapped in cling film
 
@JoeWatkins @LeviMorrison So... I still don't have a better idea of what to do now that I did 2 hours ago. Pulling the vote would look like a blatant "we pulled it because it's losing". But I don't know what other "campaigning" is possible or appropriate. And it's hovering just below passage right now.
 
If you were to pull it, I would certainly think it better to frame it as pushing Nikita's solution to the fore, to buy yourselves time to try and come up with a less complex solution (if such a solution is even possible)
 
@beberlei we got ac, but haven't been able to use it for the last week or so because decorating with windows/doors open ... this should be the last night ... itching to switch it on ...
 
Maybe just leave it and use the current feedback to try again soon? Not sure if that's a good idea though
 
12:04 AM
2 hours ago, by Joe Watkins
while it has these semantics, while we have to try to support all these things, it's necessarily complicated, it seems to me ...
 
Less likely for people to think "it was pulled cause it was losing" and it builds character
 
2 hours ago, by NikiC
@JoeWatkins Yeah, I don't think it can really be materially simplified. The previous semantics were kind of simpler on a technical level, but less intuitive
imo we tried both ways, there's nowhere to go from here
 
So realistically the only change that could influence the outcome would be by making a stronger case for it?
Quite the tricky situation to find oneself in.
 
@Tiffany "Soon" would have to be after 6 months. So it wouldn't make 8.1 anyway.
@Tiffany You are an eligible voter, aren't you?
 
@LeviMorrison do you pass zend_string or zval into rust or always copy the memory before? would be interested in your approach to mingle rust into a php extension for obvoius reasons :)
 
12:08 AM
@Crell I am but I abstain from voting for like 90% of RFCs
 
If it is withdrawn, the challenge is that 80, maybe 90% of its use will have already been met by foo(...), making the value proposition significantly weaker.
 
The exception is if I can read it, understand it, it makes sense to me. Most things are way over my head presently, so I abstain. Joe's blog post is in the back of my head.
 
i hope you don't withdraw, first there is still a chance that it is passing, you have to hold out to the nay sayers, their feedback can feel like it weighs more, but doesn't have to be. second, while it takes time, v2, v3, v4 proposals of things have usually been materially better than v1 and with innovation it just sometimes needs to take its time
 
^
 
I do think the RFC is better for the gauntlet it's already run through. That much is true.
 
12:13 AM
well it does actually weigh more, we need two yes for every one, so it literally has more weight when it comes with a no vote ...
also, it only says version 2, but I remember starting again 4 times
 
Thing is, there's 2 ways an RFC fails and then succeeds later. 1) It changes considerably, for the better. 2) The culture evolves and people "get it" now.
 
I don't think there's ground we can meet on if it's not this ground ...
 
@MarkR And my usual hot take is TS is just a preprocessor with a static analyser run, nothing you couldn't do in a PHP built tool, you'd need to add support for stuff in Pre but it is doable...
 
I don't know what's left to do on 1. And 2... chicken and egg problem.
I mean, technically it's possible to pull out named arguments, but I don't think that's actually beneficial, or really simplifies things.
And now I'm wondering if the RFC explains the edge cases TOO well, because that gets people caught up in those rather than the common cases, which are dead simple.
 
glosing over edge cases could also be a factor to vote no, I am glad these are xplained so well, because i still ponder about my yes votes on JIT and fibers, which both glossed over a lot of things :)
well it would potentially be an argument for glossing over things now that i think about it ;) but not sure if thats good
 
12:21 AM
:-) That's what I'm referring to, in a way. :-)
The Big 3 at the bottom of the RFC are, I think, really simple to understand.
/me has to go to dinner now.
I am open to suggestions for how to proceed here, other than do nothing.
If anyone is on the fence, I'm happy to chat to convince you to vote yes. :-)
 
I just think you're in a situation of this being too early
says person who hasn't voted yet
 
wasn't or hasn't? :-)
 
Hasn't* tired brain...
 
And I've been out in front of the wave before. It's unpleasant.
It's also rather demoralizing that of all the stuff I've been trying to work on or collaborating on for 8.1, it looks like I'll be batting about 1 for 6. :-(
 
I need to reread it again, but when I read it last week the semantics seemed fine to me and I very much see use for this, but there are a couple of things I wanted to do for PHP 8.1 which I didn't have time/motivation
 
12:29 AM
If you see use for it, it might be beneficial if you volunteer said uses, if, as Joe said, the main issue is the costs outweigh the benefits.
 
Which is obviously something I'm considering, and if just the barebone of what Nikita proposes is sufficient in my eyes
 
@Crell in front of the wave ...
 
Oh geez...
 
there's some truth to some things coming too early ... in fact, nearly everything I ever wrote came too early for php, and eventually got in somehow, sometimes using some of the code I originally wrote, sometimes not ...
but here, I don't think that's going to happen ...
 
@Girgias IMO, Nikita's proposal is useful, but not complete. The unary function case is the one I especially want myself. The delayed function is, honestly, icing.
 
12:35 AM
Hey at least you're not coming up with bonkers ideas like extendion @ to suppress exceptions...
@Crell Obviously, and I see that
And frankly I wonder between the complexity of partials and intersection types which one is the most troublesome
 
Or removing backticks :P ... or using the namespace explicitly reserved for engine-provided classes for engine provided classes.
 
I was talking maintenance wise
 
I just hate the idea of having a picture of how a series of features will fit together to be more than the sum of their parts and being unable to convince people of it, in some way other than giving them a few versions with just one of them and seeing the pain of the missing features.
 
The variance code is hard to grok to the point Nikita is like, wtf is going on here
 
Just have Levi rewrite the engine in Rust.
/me really goes to dinner now.
 
12:38 AM
Bon appetit
And honestly, I still do not understand attributes, or how to use them
They are pure magic to me
 
@Girgias they are the best moments, I got him to say "how can that possibly work" the other day
 
Whereas I find partials very easy to understand
 
yesterday, by NikiC
how can that possibly work
I might frame it for my office wall ...
 
Haha
 
@Girgias did you look at code yet ? it seems easy on the surface, but the hoops you have to jump through to make it work are ... on fire, and trying to kill you ...
 
12:42 AM
Well, codespaces on GitHub looks interesting
Maybe make contributing to docs easier? Though the cost for general audience is annoying, even though it's unclear what the cost will be, and hopefully can't be abused any worse than GitHub actions are by cryptobros
 
@JoeWatkins I started looking at it, but I meant on a conceptual level not implementation wise, my issue is that the VM I'm starting to grok it a bit, but how functions and objects work still confuses me as I haven't worked with them in an extension really, and partials is the intersection of all of these things
Especially the whole trampoline thing
Like function initialization cleanup is where I got stuck with è@<SpecificException>expr` sooo
 
ah conceptually, yeah, quite simple to understand ...
I've done unspeakable things in extensions
 
You've created uzop, which is probably the worst it can be...
 
1:07 AM
Evening
 
@Girgias this has "bravery" listed as a requirement :D
\o
 
why the fuck would you do that
 
you should never see 0xCC ... you would have to be brave ... we got a simpler implementation not long after anyway ... hopefully nobody used it
/me sleeps
nn all
 
Night
 
1:29 AM
I can just see someone opening an issue and asking "how do I download bravery?"
(it would've probably been me, if I had wanted to try it)
 
php.ini is not created ・ *General Issues ・ #81170
 
 
1 hour later…
2:43 AM
@GabrielCaruso My keys are on GitHub. I accidentally committed with the wrong email address but signed with the correct key because GitHub Desktop (which I installed the previous day) screwed up my global ~/.gitconfig file.
 
 
4 hours later…
6:50 AM
&$GLOBALS not allowed anymore ・ Arrays related ・ #81171
 
 
2 hours later…
9:04 AM
@JoeWatkins :P
 
PHP 8.1alpha doesn't start as an Apache 2 module on Windows ・ Apache2 related ・ #81172
 
 
2 hours later…
10:36 AM
@ramsey I need to fix my commit signing workflow x_x
 
 
1 hour later…
11:57 AM
Fatal error. PHP7-8 PG Prepared statement name collision ・ PostgreSQL related ・ #81173
 
 
3 hours later…
2:43 PM
FrancisRam ・ *General Issues ・ #81174
 
3:00 PM
If someone wants to merge github.com/php/web-bugs/pull/91 I'll could crack on with also making any reports that contain links be text only.
 
Did the desire to dispose of web bugs in favour of github issues lose favour?
 
If people feel like it, please could I have a couple of upvotes for a non-tech related comment: en.reddit.com/r/bristol/comments/o2jaia/…
@MarkR the people who want to do that, still probably want to. But some people said no.
And tbh......github issues are also a shitshow.
 
Some people? o.O
 
Most repos are being overwhelmed with help requests, rather than bugs.
 
I see... IMHO I still think we're better putting together a community discord to direct people to for help. Put people together and hope that most the problems solve themsleves by people being nice which, i hear, occasionally happens
 
3:28 PM
> by people being nice
I just finished reading amazon.co.uk/Working-Public-Making-Maintenance-Software/dp/… ....the first half and the last ten pages of which are worth reading.
Even though everyone uses open source, very few people actually think about contributing themselves, even when they could.
 
3:40 PM
Well eliminate the 99% that would be incapable of contributing time directly due to required skillset, and it all comes back to T_BLING
 
3:51 PM
Antionetrula ・ *General Issues ・ #81175
 
 
2 hours later…
6:01 PM
\o
 
o\
 
6:19 PM
Jamesblove ・ *General Issues ・ #81176
 
6:50 PM
Typehint parameter is ignored when passing NULL directly. Is it correct? ・ Filter related ・ #81177
 
 
1 hour later…
8:07 PM
@Jeeves Closed as being too dumb to wipe your ass
 
8:48 PM
His last comment is ungrateful
 
Persistent compilation ・ *Compile Issues ・ #81178
 
6 hours ago, by Danack
Most repos are being overwhelmed with help requests, rather than bugs.
and useless crap like the above.
 
On the other hand, I think the community would help out with responding to those questions on GitHub, at least more than on bugs.php.net.
If that actually means less or more work for internals, I don't know. (more notifications)
 
and certain people would be filtered out
 
(Assuming PHP moves to(wards) GitHub Issues) Could GitHub Discussions be used to try to try to help filter help requests away from Issues? I suspect it may become a complete mess of completely random, often framework specific queries, but at least it wouldn't be in Issues.
 
9:02 PM
@AllenJB Unfortunately, the person submitting the issues/discussion would have to know how to differentiate and that's likely already too much to ask.
 
can an issue be moved to a discussion?
 
@Tiffany Yep, just tried it, looks like it.
https://github.com/iluuu1994/nullsafe-operator-rfc/issues/7
https://github.com/iluuu1994/nullsafe-operator-rfc/discussions/8
 
Another alternative that might help: externals.io but for the users mailing list, with the ability to post. (I'm kind of working on the theory that at least some people submitting these issues don't know where else they could easily ask about behavior / ask for help before submitting a bug)
 
9:35 PM
readonly variables? o_o cloud.void.tn/r/cy3tpsp5mtnj18
 
 
1 hour later…
10:42 PM
Hello
Can anyine help me with laravel stuff
 
Don't ask to ask, just ask. That being said this is an off-hour time of the week for this chat room.
 
And there aren't many regulars who use laravel, but you never know.
 
I want to count watch time minute in laravel and put the information to database with video id and watch time minute.
How can i do this?
 
10:59 PM
Watch time minutes are related to youtube?
@justMSARahat have you looked at developers.google.com/youtube/analytics/metrics?
From that point, it's a matter of using a CURL request in PHP, it looks like
 
Its a mlm site. After user watching full video some point will be added on his account
 
Multilevel marketing? If so, bleh
 
D: well, good luck with that
 
11:16 PM
an online pyramid scheme?
 

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