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4:01 AM
Insomnia blows
Guess it's time for the stronger sleep aid
 
 
2 hours later…
5:34 AM
@Trowski replied on pr, I think it makes sense right now for them to be hooks ... of course we may ditch hooks if the extensions we are trying to accommodate turn out not to need this integration ... but I think it will be useful ...
 
6:16 AM
Morning! Starting to tag 8.0.8RC1 earlier than planned, my day is full of meetings today :(
 
 
6:51 AM
MatthewVaw ・ *General Issues ・ #81139
 
7:28 AM
@Danack github.com/Imagick/imagick/pull/421 ;) (at least the __construct fix seems critical, and probably worth a RC2)
@Danack not being able to properly use auto-generated arginfo PHP 8 feature is a bit sad... but @generate-legacy-arginfo doesn't seems usable here...
 
scp ./php-8.0.8RC1.tar.* downloads.php.net:public_html gives me kex_exchange_identification: Connection closed by remote host, first time. What have I done? :(
 
@Trowski There's some kind of state leak across requests after recent changes: dev.azure.com/phpazuredevops/PHP/_build/… Does the blocking flag not get reset properly somewhere?
 
cmb
@GabrielCaruso there have been issues with the jump. hosts; try jump2., jump3. etc.
 
@cmb Thanks, let me try!
 
Looks like all or at least a lot of fiber tests are failing under --repeat 2
 
7:37 AM
I got it
fixed
 
7:53 AM
@JoeWatkins Why was it blocked on so many tests though? Seems suspicious
 
@cmb is it something on .ssh/config that I should change?
 
cmb
yes
 
Ah, I see, it calls block in fiber_shutdown
Why does it do that?
I'd expect a fiber switch after fiber_shutdown to crash and burn ^^
 
the last thing fiber shutdown does is block switches
I don't know exactly
 
Hi here
 
8:01 AM
@NikiC fibers are shutdown before class destructors are run ...
which I'm not sure is right
although it doesn't really matter now
 
8:14 AM
@NikiC you think this should fail with a more specific error ?
 
I'm unhappy with the destructor fiber blocking and think it's dangerous…
 
@cmb Gonna send an email to RMs, neither jump, jump2 or jump3 are working for me, or I might be changing stuff in the wrong place
 
Define "not working".
And "gonna" isn't a word in English.
 
@JoeWatkins Nah, more that would be an implementation bug and could fail in a non-graceful way (assert or segfault)
 
@Derick Google says otherwise :D
 
8:23 AM
Also, the RMs can't fix jump servers.
 
@Derick Same error as I mentioned couple of messages up: kex_exchange_identification: Connection closed by remote host
@Derick That's good to know. systems@?
 
run ssh -v -v -v jump2 -p 9022 europe.jump.php.net and put the output somewhere
sorry, without the "jump2" in there
 
Recently, Rasmus fixed the 2FA on one on the jump where it wasn't working
That was europe.jump.php.net
 
@GabrielCaruso I don't have all day.
 
@GabrielCaruso can you push tarball somewher (at least .xz and .xz.asc), using the tag is not an option for me ...
 
8:28 AM
@Derick Give me a sec, this is new stuff for me
 
what, running a command on the command line? :-)
 
@GabrielCaruso It that before you are asked to provide Verification code?
 
@PatrickAllaert Probrably is that, I never had 2FA set
 
@PatrickAllaert Can we please have one person doing this?
 
@Derick understand what is happening. Give me a sec, please
Hopefully there's no PII in there
 
8:31 AM
you probably shouldn't have shared that publicly...
 
@bwoebi the way I see it, and from my understanding of the conversation(s) yesterday ... this is the only safe thing to do in core, I recognize that you dislike it, but both you and niklas seemed to agree that the solution to this problem is a scheduler, which we don't have ... if some extension implements a scheduler they may disable this behaviour ... seems to suit everyone, doesn't it ?
 
@GabrielCaruso Did you not create a specific ssh key for the PHP project? It's only sending your standard ones.
 
@Derick I did, I have one dedicated to the PHP RM stuff
 
You didn't tell SSH that this time
 
@JoeWatkins I feel like it would be safe if we were to add a toggle for that behaviour
 
8:33 AM
you have one, it's just very low level, in the hooks
 
@Derick What I should there, and where?
 
I mean, it's not inherently unsafe to switch fibers in destructors…
 
ssh -v -v -v -p 9022 europe.jump.php.net -i .ssh/yourkeyname
 
That's the pice i'm missing :(
 
once that works, you can add it to .ssh/config
 
8:34 AM
@JoeWatkins It's just unsafe to switch fibers in destructors if you have no proper handling for the case where you aren't in a fiber within a destructor.
 
Host *.php.net
ProxyCommand nohup ssh -p 9022 europe.jump.php.net nc -w1 %h %p
IdentityFile /home/derick/.ssh/phpservers

is what I have, for example
 
@Derick .ssh/username is a folder, or just replace with my @php.net?
@Derick Let me check with the one I have
 
@JoeWatkins A scheduler allows working around blocking suspend in __destruct, it doesn't allow to toggle any behavior.
 
.ssh should have a bunch of config files in it
and no, don't add @php.net
 
@bwoebi and other things, you need to make sure you switch back into the dtor at some point ... the guard rails you need to make this safe, we are not able to erect without a scheduler ... so let us do the safe thing ... override this behaviour when you have the scheduler to make it safe
 
8:36 AM
ssh -v -v -v -p 9022 europe.jump.php.net -i .ssh/yourkeyname
 
```
Host americas.jump.php.net europe.jump.php.net php-jump2.php.net
ProxyCommand none
Port 9022
IdentityFile /Users/gcaruso/.ssh/id_rsa
```

I also have this, probrably from the inital setup, should I keep it?
 
the name is just a file
@GabrielCaruso Can we make it work first before adding it to the config?
 
@Derick Starting with id_*?
 
@JoeWatkins It's pretty much the same thing as creating new references to $this in __destruct, no?
 
@GabrielCaruso Possibly, I don't know how you named it
 
8:38 AM
@JoeWatkins … guaranteeing that you switch back to a dtor is really an userland thing … just like you'd need to switch back to any fiber to continue execution… … and if a fiber reference is lost, it's anyway cleaned up
 
@kelunik a scheduler implemented as an extension can toggle the behaviour, one in userland might use FFI ... or I guess we could add an ini ... but yuk ... realistically, isn't the scheduler (or the thing containing it) going to be an extension ?
 
@Derick Okay thanks, one moment, let me figure it out
 
@JoeWatkins Why should a scheduler toggle behavior? I haven't understood that.
 
@Derick How does that file look like? OpenSSL private key?
 
> it doesn't allow to toggle any behavior.
 
8:42 AM
@GabrielCaruso yes, starting with "-----BEGIN RSA PRIVATE KEY-----" - you should have another file with ".pub" added to it too (which is the public key)
 
Okay, I have two pairs (4 files), probrably that's the problem. Let me try again
 
@bwoebi @kelunik so I imagined that the thing containing the scheduler would be an extension, but you seem to assume it will all be userland code, is that right ?
 
@GabrielCaruso Your ssh -v -v already showed these two (id_rsa and id_<the other one that I can't check because the gist is now gone>).
@GabrielCaruso But if you say you created a specific one for the RM stuff, then they're likely not id_rsa and id_dsa
 
@JoeWatkins It depends, it'll probably be like now for a while, a basic scheduler based on stream_select and extensions like ext-uv etc.
 
Sorry, deleted as it contained PII, right?

Okay, one step back, I'm lost (sorry, this is new for me): what are we looking for and what problem am I facing?
 
8:47 AM
@GabrielCaruso You're not sending the right key when connecting.
As part of setting up for the RM stuff, one part was to create SSH keys. Where did you put them?
that is the problem
 
Okay, thanks for explaining. Something has changed on my side between 8.0.5 release and today's, I have the same setup and keys, I changed nothing. I have a meeting that I can't skip, sorry, I'll dig during lunch time and hopeffuly get this fixed on time to not delay QA
 
I know that both the other guys are working on PoC things that use the internal API and they're extensions, and I was focused on them being able to disable this.
 
@JoeWatkins both should do it and have the same capabilities unless technically impossible.
 
okay can I wait for Aaron to be online and see what to do ... you really want an INI ?
 
Can someone please explain to me why having a scheduler makes it safe to do a fiber switch during GC?
 
8:52 AM
@NikiC Are you talking now about the aspect of unpredictability of destructor invocation or about the GC freeing itself?
 
@bwoebi GC freeing itself
 
@NikiC yeah, I don't think this is currently optimally implemented, but it probably should not be too hard to make the GC perfectly re-entrant?
At least destructor invocation only happens at the very end when all the cycle detecting has finished, it's not interleaved or anything
At the very least it should be possible to start new fibers in destructors and suspend these
I'd be fine with disallowing direct fiber suspending in destructors.
In that case it wouldn't be worse than any normal destructor usage during gc
 
@NikiC That's the thing I'd like @JoeWatkins to explain, because extension for a scheduler or not, the issue is suspending the GC, not whether the scheduler is in userland or an extension.
The GC can either be made reentrant and we can allow suspending in destructors, or it can't, then we need to forbid it.
 
9:18 AM
@NikiC lua doesn't allow suspending in gc either, the work around is to create new fibers in the destructor, but you can't start it, that's still a context switch, rather a scheduler has to start it later
 
@JoeWatkins One reason why we separated start and creation. :-)
@bwoebi It already needs to be partially reentrant because of calling gc_collect_cycles() within __destruct, no?
 
@kelunik partially is the right word, it just checks GC_G(gc_active) and if set, does nothing.
the problem only arises if you'd switch away for a long running operation during gc
in which case gc wouldn't run for a long time
which would lead to root buffer saturation
 
Morning o/
 
@bwoebi @kelunik Even if you somehow fix GC and cycle collection there is still a fundamental problem with suspending a fiber from within a destructor: You have no idea which fiber you are suspending (gc_collect_cycles() is running on an arbitrary fiber).
This might be fine if all fibers are running through the same scheduling code... but what if they are not?
 
9:29 AM
@kooldev If they're not running with the same scheduler, you'll block anyway.
@kooldev For 8.1 I'd just go with blocking suspend in destructors I think, even if that's unpredictable as well, but you shouldn't do too many things in destructors anyway.
 
If there was some kind of builtin scheduler we could create an additional fiber that executes gc_collect_cycles() and would not interact with other fibers. Whenever the fiber running GC is suspended it could create a new fiber that is switched to and executes the remaining GC work.
The primary problem is that the GC fiber has no place to suspend() to as far as the Fiber API in userland is concerned.
However with some kind of async / await this would work just fine.
 
@kooldev You can't just run the remaining work on another fiber, no? Magically switching fibers would break assumptions such as fiber locals using Fiber::this() as map key.
 
@kelunik That would indeed be a problem if something like fiber locals / fiber scope is not part of such an implementation. I think that even if we allowed context switches in destructors right now any use of Fiber::this() might give you an arbitrary fiber. If called somewhere from within gc_collect_cycles() it could be a different fiber than the one you would get if an object is destroyed because the last reference goes out of scope...
 
9:44 AM
@kooldev github.com/kelunik/fiber-local, not sure whether they should be part of php-src
 
@kelunik This should work just fine anywhere but probably not when used from within a running destructor. Even a full-featured async implementation will likely not be able to provide a correct fiber-local to a destructor because the context / scope is lost by the time GC collects cycles...
 
yup
 
10:06 AM
@cmb Still plan to add odbc_result_all() to deprecations RFC?
 
cmb
@NikiC thanks for the reminder! I'll add it to the RFC soon.
 
@kelunik In an async implementation we could capture the async scope (or fiber-locals) at the time of object creation (that is probably the only sane way to associate a destructor with it) and reactivate that scope when the destructor is called. Otherwise we would eighter require an API to associate a scope or we have to completely avoid (and disable) use of such a scope in destructors...
 
@cmb Just added it myself, but feel free to expand :)
 
@kooldev I'd rather disable it in __destruct
 
@kelunik That is my preference as welll. Destructors are a real pain when fibers are involved... :/
 
cmb
10:19 AM
@NikiC thanks! LGTM. Could still elaborate, if someone opposes the deprecation.
 
10:45 AM
Stephenalole ・ *General Issues ・ #81140
 
hello
 
11:02 AM
@Derick Sigh. Any truth to this? externals.io/message/113657#114883
 
I don't care enough. Is it really worth breaking people's code over this though by starting to throw deprecation warnings?
 
@kooldev We could run each destructor in its own fiber in the future, which mostly solves fiber locals and the unpredictablity.
 
@kelunik this.
 
I'm not sure about the overhead, but __destruct should be rare enough and fiber memory can probably be reused.
 
fyi github actions may be having an outage on displaying output of jobs....
I'm watching something run....then refreshing page and the output is gone.
 
11:09 AM
@kelunik yeah, we can essentially just have a pre-allocated stack lying around - when calling destruct we move to that stack. (as in, we update the stack register), so nearly zero overhead. When the destructor turns out to be suspending, we just allocate a new stack for future destructors
the only problem (if we were to do that right now) is … where would a suspension of the dtor fiber suspend to?
 
@bwoebi exactly my thought, probably needs an additional object if Fiber::this is called, but that could also be lazily created.
@bwoebi We can't do it without a built-in scheduler.
 
@Derick slang for "going to"
 
11:24 AM
@kelunik Running each destructor in it's own fiber is possible. An alternative would be to run gc_collect_cycles() in it's own fiber instead. This works fine for all destructors that do not suspend. In case a destructor does suspend it will use the active fiber. In that case we can create a new GC fiber and have gc_collect_cycles() continue working on that fiber.
If all destructors suspend this will be the same overhead as creating new fibers for each of them. This case should be very rare and on average we might not need many fibers for that.
It will also reduce the number of temporary Fiber objects that have to be created but it cannot solve the problem with Fiber::suspend() not having anything to suspend to...
 
@kooldev yeah, that's effectively the same, just the internal implementation differ without effect on userland.
@kooldev on the topic of "suspending to", we essentially just need a trivial way to set a global default suspends-to fiber if there is none…
and that would also be the toggle on whether suspending in dtors is allowed or not
so like if we have a scheduler fiber in our userland code … we can set that fiber as suspends-to target
can be a static property on the fiber class of type Fiber|null
 
@bwoebi That would also work for calling Fiber::suspend() from {main} then (as long as a "scheduler fiber" is set).
 
that's true
 
11:40 AM
23 hours ago, by Joe Watkins
Fiber::suspends(function(Fiber $fiber) use($reactor) {

});
 
Technically speaking this should not be hard to implement. But can it be done without an RFC?
 
so I imagined that you would want to run this sort of function on any invocation of suspend(), but you're saying you'd only want to invoke if nothing to suspend too ?
 
@Danack I had forgotten about that :-)
 
@kooldev Depends on whether we can reach consensus on the best way… if not, then yeah
@JoeWatkins yes, the latter. in the other case a fiber has already a known point of return
 
okay well that seemed reasonable for about 10 minutes yesterday to me, before we got into this whole hook thing ...
 
11:45 AM
@JoeWatkins the problem of your approach is that one cannot back up the current default suspender, hence I suggested a static property instead (not sure if a callable or a Fiber object directly is better though)
 
I think it's more useful if it executes all the time, that there is "something" to suspend too doesn't mean it's the thing you want to suspend too, I thought maybe $reactor might have better ideas so rather than allowing the suspend, it starts some other target ... is that not possible ?
 
@JoeWatkins if you want to suspend "to" something else, you resume that something else
 
yeah, resume/start, whatever, it might not want the switch that is going to happen by default to happen was my point ...
 
if you want to suspend to the current point of return (i.e. relinquish control to the scheduler or to whatever controls the fiber) you suspend()
 
@JoeWatkins And you have to be somewhat careful with these switches. PHP Fiber objects are designed as asymmetric coroutines that require stack-like resume() / suspend() operations. Arbitrary switching could be dangerous...
@bwoebi How would you write a scheduler fiber? As a fiber running something like while (true) { $work = Fiber::suspend(); ... }?
 
12:10 PM
@JoeWatkins @kooldev @bwoebi Y'all are going nearer and nearer to our initial proposal ;-)
 
@kelunik well, what I wanted all the time is a bare fiber implementation and additionally some hook to allow a acquiring a fiber if there is none. But IIRC, in your initial proposal the coupling between fiber and scheduling was too tight
 
The coupling will be there anyway, the difference is whether you'll see it from the API directly or not ;-)
 
I did not say there's none, just less
 
Morning, all
 
I think I need a break from Twitter
 
12:25 PM
Anyone know of a docbock, or even a Jetbrains-specific attribute, to document the 'shape' of an object's array access keys ?
essentially, #[ArrayShape()], but for a class implementing ArrayAccess, and not a method's return value.
 
yeah :(
 
why would you use an array object if you know what it contains exactly?
is it' lazy loaded?
 
well this particular use case is about accessing things by strings that aren't legal properties - http header names
$obj->Accept-Language is not valid. $obj['Accept-Language'] is
and yes, they should also be accessible using converted camelCase property names.
But I find libraries are more useful when they make things easier not harder.
note that it isn't an instance of \ArrayObject, it's just a class that implements \ArrayAccess amongst other things,
 
12:42 PM
the best solution IMHO for that is: 3v4l.org/gnZ01
 
.... I'm not really sure how that helps solve what is essentially a documentation problem.
 
there's no solution for you case, that is what you can do to ensure that types are correct at runtime, and satisfy static analysis
 
IDEA/phpstorm don't read that @extends tag to infer the return type, much less identify the possible key names
ensuring correct types at runtime is solved already, using type hints/return types; the problem is purely about documenting what works, that's all.
 
why do you care about documenting it if you are not using static analysis tools?
to get autocomplete for keys?
 
for the... 3rd time, yes.
 
12:55 PM
that's only possible with arrays
or @property annotation
 
about 2 loops of this conversation ago I found youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/WI-57830, so hopefully it'll work at some point.
 
@JoeWatkins Shall I remove the fiber block hooks then? We can always restore them or add a different API in the future.
(though after thinking about it, I don't think it will be necessary)
 
Ramonenuts ・ *General Issues ・ #81141
 
@Trowski Do you want to remove the hooks or the entire blocking? I think we will need blocking in some situations...
 
@kooldev Just the hooks.
 
1:07 PM
@Trowski OK. What's your opinion on the destructor / GC / add scheduler fiber discussion?
 
@kooldev I don't see how a scheduler helps the GC issue other than providing the alternative, such as a defer function.
But a scheduler was pushed outside of the scope of Fibers for now because it was a much bigger task and one that will take a lot more time to get through internals.
Perhaps 8.2 (though probably more like 8.3)
 
@Trowski yeah, ditch them, but we need the restriction, whatever user or api is added on top, it must still not suspend in destruct ...
we need the API too ...
 
@JoeWatkins I'll just remove the vars. I'll ping you with the commit before I push it.
 
@Trowski OK, I am with you on that one. Having to deal with scheduler fibers (again) would IMO not be great, especially if we want to go for some kind of builtin scheduler for a future version of PHP. Things are complicated enough with the way Fiber interacts with other fiber implementations. :P
 
@kooldev Exactly, let's not make that worse. I have a roadmap in my mind of adding an internal scheduler and some sort of construct to run code in a separate fiber (async / spawn) and a placeholder object returned from that.
 
1:15 PM
do you plan to write a streams layer ?
 
Will have to I suppose.
 
that's the real task, a scheduler, whatever, we could write 5 different versions in as many hours ...
I have no idea how to approach this
 
@Trowski Yeah, I had the same idea... and already finished implementing it (and ported it from boost.context to zend_fiber_context). :-) I have been testing builtin fibers quite a bit with that and so far they are working very well.
 
@kooldev Would you be willing to share that publicly or in private repo for now?
 
@Trowski Absolutely, I am just doing some cleanup and refactoring. I have written most of it last year and was looking into writing an RFC for it to get some feedback. When I was ready you were already pushing fibers and I did not want to interfere with that.
Plus I am really bad at handling the politics involved with an RFC (thanks to @beberlei for doing that with attributes).
 
1:22 PM
I'm happy to help with that, I've had plenty of mud slung at me already.
 
@Trowski Should we rename Fiber::this to Fiber::current? If we want to add a object-less variant, Fiber::current_id() / Fiber::currentId() seems better than Fiber::thisId().
 
@JoeWatkins Fairly straightforward: github.com/trowski/php-src/commit/…
@kelunik I'm fine with that. Fiber::current() or Fiber::getCurrent()?
 
@Trowski Don't care, what's your preference?
 
lgtm
 
is there a better way to say "being set" with regards to enforcing an object dependency? this is just for a pull request description, and saying "being set" feels clumsy
context: "...the alternative seems to be changing genericFactoryMethodName() to not enforce a Site object being set..."
 
1:33 PM
“Not require”?
 
@Trowski lazy
 
@Danack thanks
 
Or “relax to an optional dependency”……
 
I went with "...the alternative seems to be changing genericFactoryMethodName() to not require a Site object and that seems worse."
 
@JoeWatkins lgtm or ltgm ?
@Tiffany Hey what's up
Def lgtm
 
1:38 PM
@ln-s work work
 
I dunno what the other one means, but as a precaution, I'm going to say the first three ...
 
opening a PR before I have my standup report written 😬
 
@Trowski I sent you an invite to a repo that holds the (dated) draft RFC.
 
@MateKocsis I don't think adding function in the docs is an actual solution, as it doesn't work for namespaces functions
 
@kooldev Cool. And code when you're done with some refactoring?
@kelunik I don't really know… lol
We already have a mixed bag of methods prefixed with "get" and those without. Since current() is usually used with an iterator, maybe getCurrent() makes more sense?
 
1:52 PM
@Trowski Yep, I need to merge some changes I made while playing with libuv (the async code is not related to libuv, I just wanted to see if they go together (and they do)).
 
@kooldev Awesome, I'm excited to see what you've done.
 
@kooldev wave :D
 
@beberlei Hi o/
 
Btw @beberlei I haven't thanked you for the Tideways masks, which are hella convenient and great
 
@Girgias oh great you like them :) here in Germany w ecant really use them anymore, because ffp2/N95s are required everywhere.
 
1:57 PM
@beberlei Well that's disappointing, because I'm using them nearly all the time here (except for the rare times I need a single use one)
 
\o/
 
It's really the nose pinching thing which makes them stand out
 
@Trowski Yeah, that's why I'm not sure.
 
2:27 PM
@beberlei heh... they're even requiring N95's now... that's not really useful.
 
they don't i thought its the same as ffp2, sorry :D
 
but still...
who's paying for these, the state?
considering they're not reusable...
 
most people just reuse them I guess :D
 
o_O
 
How's vaccination rates in Germany?
 
2:35 PM
I'm getting my second jab on Saturday! 5 weeks earlier than originally booked.
 
retailers are easing restrictions for "fully vaccinated" but most everyone in retailers are maskless regardless of vaccination status :|
I think Illinois is about 40% fully vaccinated, but about 99% of people aren't wearing a mask in my county
 
Illinois passed 51% vaccinated last week.
Still, yeah, people are "opening up" too quickly. And we're going to quickly forget that the rest of the world is still deep in pandemic, and much of the US still is, too, because of anti-vaxers.
 
@Crell google says 42%, almost 43%
 
Really? I saw an article last Thursday that said we passed 51%.
 
News are never accurate people, get used to it
 
Even from main sources
:D
 
@Crell github.com/owid/covid-19-data/blob/master/public/data/… this is where google is getting its info
 
It may have an update lag, then. Or they're reading different data than the state is.
 
Maybe it depends if they are including people under 16 or not.
 
looking at the data for my county... I hate my county...
 
3:01 PM
@Derick employers need to pay for them for work scenarios, but generally everyone pays for them out of pocket, if you don't have a lot of money you are eligable for state sponsored. but yes, germany is paying a lot of money for all kinds of things, masks, tests, ...
 
@beberlei did you get vaccinated yet? What's the age ranges they're doing righ tnow?
 
cmb
free for all
 
@Derick i am fully vaccinated already, our program works differently though than UK, not completly age based, an ethic commission devised some complex plan who comes first and there are 4 big groups, each with 5-10 subgroups. I was in group 2, so i got access in April already.
 
@Derick also, yay :D my head's too focused on details and not paying attention to the positive things. I hope it goes well for you.
 
I got my first one in April too... but then 12 weeks waiting (now 8)
 
3:07 PM
last week it the 4th group was activated (free for all) like @cmb said, but it will take until end of August until everyone tht wants a shot gets at least their first one.
ah i got the biontech stuff, which only has 6 weeks waiting
 
they started speeding up the 40+ people here again
 
does the UK only have astra btw or also biontech?
 
AZ, Pfiser, and Moderna, I think
they don't give AZ to the under 30s
 
cmb
wow, Brits are even spelling Pfizer with an s :)
 
lol :)
taking from impfdashboard.de we have up to this week 47 mio biontech, 11M astra, 6M moderna and 2M JNJ
 
3:10 PM
no, it's just that I don't know how to spell it
it seems Janssen is also approved here
 
Utah is the state with the 4th most cases of covid-19 per capita. Oof. Broken down by county, my county is not that high, fortunately. But the fact nearly everyone went maskless as soon as the mandate ended surely is part of it.
 
its spelled biontech not pfizer, they are just distributing it ;)
 
whatevs
people are getting more lacks with wearing masks here too, especially in public transport where it's still required. Shops are still mostly OK. No need anywhere else really (in pubs/restaurants only when moving around).
@LeviMorrison Did you end up getting your shot btw?
 
Schedule for 2 weeks out. I could get it sooner, but I'm lazy. This place is very close to me ^_^
 
somewhat inconveniently, it seems that after 1 shot of AZ, although people don't get seriously ill from the disease, they instead just have a really bad case of the sniffles.....which they don't realise could be covid-19, and so go to the pub.....
the graph on coronavirus.data.gov.uk is ....discombobulating.
 
3:14 PM
@LeviMorrison yeah, same situation in my county as well. Last time I went shopping, there were maybe 1% of people wearing a mask, that I could tell. Not many active cases in my county, either, but I wonder if people just aren't bothering with getting tested now.
 
@Danack I am quite pleased that uptake is very higher, albeit not in some demographics (yet)
 
me too.
Though I still need an explanation of 'Manchester' from Mr Random.
 
@Tiffany Average 7 day cases for my county is only 10, so either we're doing fine or as you say, people aren't getting tested as much anymore...
Only 31.3% of people fully vaccinated in this county, with young and old being higher than that, so a bunch of middle-aged people are dragging their feed (which I'd fall into as well, since I haven't gotten mine yet).
I found the metrics for test rates -- it's been on a gentle decline for a while, but the positivity rate has been going up (so people who suspect they are sick are still getting tested, it seems).
 
3:32 PM
Or they're getting hospitalized and a test is administered, if we make a very general assumption of the mindset of anti-vaxxers...
I don't have a lot of optimism for anti-vaxxers, and generally assume that they'll only do something if they're required by a higher authority with regards to Covid (health official, employer restrictions, retailer or government restrictions)
 
Anyone here use phpstan a lot?
@Tiffany Most of them are anti-vaxers specifically because they reject higher authority on principle, even to their own detriment.
 
@Crell aye, :/
 
something something, don't ask to ask.
 
cmb
4:07 PM
@Derick, any schedule for the 7.4.21RC1 tag? :)
 
@Crell i mostly use psalm, but i'm a bit familiar with phpstan, what's the question?
 
The answer has been found and worked around. stan is being overly-picky in annoying ways and not reporting it well. :-( Thanks.
 
4:24 PM
@Crell I know a (current) heroin addict who is also an anti-vaxxer.
 
@DaveRandom Precisely.
 
it's 100% irrational, to the extent in many cases of being anti-rational
 
@DaveRandom lol
 
it tesselates exactly with the recent re-emergence of mainstream nationalism
 
It's OK, you can cal it fascism.
 
4:27 PM
some of it is, but a lot of people are just getting swept along in the nationalist "fringes"
(hence the qualifier "mainstream")
 
4:49 PM
\o
 
@Derick Can you expand on why you're voting against CachedIterable? I was just about to vote for it, but so far it has 3 votes No only, so I may be missing something.
 
I'm undecided. I don't like that the author rejected basically all feedback, except went with whatever came out on top of their straw polls.
It's like they have no design principles guiding the work; just whatever is most likely to be accepted, that's what they'll do.
But, the functionality is useful, even if I think some of the details can be improved.
 
can you point me at the feedback ?
 
5:05 PM
The performance benefits are convincing for me, though I agree the API is a bit of a mess. I can't recall ever using/needing pairs in PHP. And Marco's point that the serialization logic is out of scope unless better explained is valid.
I do kind of feel like the entire iterable framework needs to be revisited once intersection types are a thing.
 
@Tiffany Hot take. I wouldn't be sad if anti-vaxers got sick. I'm only annoyed that they rob the rest of us of herd immunity.
@Crell Who's talking about pairs? Like, a 2-element tuple specialization?
 
@Sara If it weren't for the risk of mutation escaping vaccination coverage, I would agree. Also, kids.
@Sara Yes. It's in the ImmutableIterator RFC that just went into voting.
 
@Crell Nah, I know. Also they rest of us will broadly shield the anti-vaxers from their own folly anyway/
Okay. I need to read that when I have more time. Which isn't now.
 
the zval pair thing in the implementation is one reason I don't like it, if we're going to do that, it shouldn't be as part of this ...
 
@JoeWatkins Wait, it adds a zval pair?
 
5:11 PM
I guess I should close the vote on short-functions. I'll probably turn the patch into just a cleanup patch, since it does do some nice parser rule unification.
 
/** TODO: Does C guarantee that this has the same memory layout as an array of zvals? */
typedef struct _zval_pair {
	zval key;
	zval value;
} zval_pair;
bit clumsy ...
and the user side of the api looks strange to me also ... given that we don't really have pairs/tuples except clumsily, as a result of this ... it all just feels not very nice to me ...
 
Ah, I see. Seeing the type isn't exported it doesn't bother me much.
 
well, it's exported via the user api, suddenly a pair is a thing in php because of some obscure iterator that most people will never use ...
 
Yeah, I'm getting less enamored with this the more we talk.
 
Guess I should go actually read the RFC :P
 
5:18 PM
Maybe I just feel guilty voting against something I never commented on during review. :-)
 
fromPairs/toPairs – yeah, not a fan. I too should have said something I guess. I initially dismissed it as something that can be done in user land and never bothered looking again.
More than anything, this is probably a deal-breaker for me: "They eagerly evaluate the results of Traversables (e.g. Generators)"
$array = iterator_to_array($generator); // done.
 
and I don't think I've ever even used that ... but levi is saying it's useful, so I must miss something, or just not be looking at the kind of code where it's useful ...
whatever about it being useful, it's strange for sure ...
 
I did once in a recursive generator parser.
 
@Trowski I was thinking the same, although the RFC does make a case for why it's better than an array. Mainly more flexibility around keys and increased performance.
I've seen pairs like that used in some strictly FP languages, but I've never really understood why you would do that when classes and associative arrays exist. I've never done it myself in PHP, ever.
 
Got my first COVID vaccine jab \o/
6
 
5:28 PM
PHP 7.3+ memory leak when unserialize() is used on an associative array ・ Arrays related ・ #81142
 
personally i don't like it because it's not lazy enough.

e.g: given a generator, it will be converted into an array immediately, this shouldn't be the case.

here's a userland implementation that IMHO is better: https://github.com/azjezz/psl/blob/1.8.x/src/Psl/Iter/Iterator.php ( not performance wise probably )
 
@Crell I think without the other issues, I'd consider voting yes as the performance justifies it.
 
@Trowski That's kind of where I am. Like the performance, don't like the messy other bits.
 
Jun 12 at 15:02, by Sara
https://wiki.php.net/rfc/cachediterable TF?! CachedIterable eagerly unwinds a generator making it seekable and replayable.... Yeah mate, well done, you've invented arrays.
 
Ah, PHP: Created associative arrays, and then spent the next quarter century trying to get back away from associative arrays.
 
5:32 PM
yea :) the userland implementation doesn't exhaust the generator unless it really needs to.
 
If you need a daily dose of snark, you can always count on Sara.
 
I find the performance unconvincing ... what are the chances that the one time you might have found a use for this, it would have made a difference to the overall performance of the application, or even a significant difference in one specific area of the code (wider than the call to iterator_to_array) ?
 
this is basically:

final class ImmutableIterator extends ArrayIterator {
public function __construct(iterable $iter) {
parent::__construct(is_array($iter) : $iter : iterator_to_array($iter));
}
}
 
things can only go fast if you execute them, and I probably won't, and if it is executed it will be low frequency, so low that it can't effect overall perf of the code that follows, which is likely to be orders of magnitude more complicated than whatever trick I use to make an array, or another iterator ...
I find useful convincing more than perf, but I fail to see them ...
 
cmb
ImmutableListOfKeyValuePairs?
 
5:43 PM
ImmutablePairVector
i usually call (Tk, Tv) an entry, so ImmutableEntriesVector? :p
 
cmb
Yeah, whatever, but why name that Iterator? It is a new data structure.
 
it also doesn't implement Iterator
it's an IteratorAggregate
ImmutableEntriesVectorIteratorAggregate sounds good
 
You forgot SingletonFactoryBean
 
and you forgot to define the interface, and 40 specialized exceptions
 
JsonSerializeCachableImmutableEntriesVectorIteratorAggregate + JsonSerializeCachableImmutableEntriesVectorIteratorAggregateFactory
 
5:49 PM
ICacheAllTheKeysAndValuesOfAnIterableMuchTooEagerlyAndWithoutMuchThought
 
starts with I, so that's the interfaces #C#
 
IThinkItsTimeYouAllGot49InchMonitorsAndGotOnboardTheDescriptiveSymbolsTrain
 
whenever I come back to using RecursiveDirectoryIterator, RecursiveIteratorIterator fucks with my head and I have to remember how to use it correctly
 
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