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12:08 AM
@Tiffany Come and be among us.
 
 
3 hours later…
3:06 AM
mornin room.
 
 
4 hours later…
7:26 AM
@NikiC I keep ending up in a place where I need a map, I dunno if I'm not understanding what you meant, but the args are sent in prototype positions no matter what, because we haven't changed the prototype while they are being sent
I can't make sense out of how to rebuild the prototype, map the args from the old positions to new ones, and then allow further application, it's hugely complicated, and I'm skipping over nice simple code to do this ...
and I'm not even sure why, I don't like Levi's suggested for many symbols and complicated semantics (even though they are logical) ....
I liked the thing that had three rules and was easy to understand ...
 
Good morning.
 
7:42 AM
morns
 
7:56 AM
@JoeWatkins Not sure it would require an actual map (as in hashtable) -- e.g. if you have your bound placeholders, which are a mix of values, IS_UNDEF and IS_PLACEHOLDER, you copy that to your actual args and while doing so replace IS_PLACEHOLDER with the corresponding incoming value for that arg number.
 
8:24 AM
@NikiC That properties RFC is massive! :-)
@NikiC I've just shared a link to the list of questions to your gmail.
 
8:59 AM
@Danack Thanks! I don't have anything useful right now and don't want to make something up.
 
@NikiC I'm in the whereby waiting :-)
 
krakjoe@Fiji:/opt/src/php-src$ cat test.php
<?php
function foo(int $a, string $b) {
    var_dump(func_get_args());
}

$foo = foo(b: ?, a: ?);

$reflector = new ReflectionFunction($foo);
printf("%s(", $reflector->getName());
$parameters = $reflector->getParameters();
for ($param = 0; $param < count($parameters); $param++) {
    $parameter = $parameters[$param];
    printf("%s \$%s",
        (string) $parameter->getType(),
        $parameter->getName());
    if ($param < count($parameters)-1) {
        printf(", ");
VICTORY IS MINE, POSSIBLY
7
 
9:56 AM
Install Curl with PHP 7.4 on AIX 7.1 ・ Compile Failure ・ #81045
 
10:23 AM
@JoeWatkins nice job! :-D
@JoeWatkins can I then still do $foo(a: 42, b: "b")?
 
10:47 AM
@JoeWatkins Who said it was impossible? :P
 
11:40 AM
constant overwrite class method ・ Class/Object related ・ #81046
 
Can someome please confirm I'm not going mad: the Zend Observer is only run for userland function calls. Is there any way to make this also run for internal stuff (like file_get_contents, or a function defined in another extension)?
 
@NikiC I've just added oci8.old_oci_close_semantics ini setting to the deprecations RFC because Christopher Jones agreed with it. Feel free to remove it if you disagree :)
 
12:02 PM
@cmb I thiiiink that is good news? :) Thanks for grabbing my branch; I had to stop working on the last bit last week - the getimagetype() bit - but I did figure out how I can get it to work. I'm going to get back into it today!

I guess it isn't that surprising that the AVIF DLL is so big, since libavif is pretty extensive. But... AOM didn't build?
@cmb if AOM's got a problem on x86, it shouldn't be a problem to get some folks who know it well to investigate.
 
cmb
@BenMorss AOM built fine on 64-bit, but not on 32-bit Windows. Maybe just a minor glitch in the configuration, maybe not supported at all. It may make sense to ship avif.dll only for 64-bit builds.
@BenMorss well, that would be great!
 
12:25 PM
Morning
 
@bwoebi yeah
@NikiC yeah, it's not job done, but it looks possible this way ...
 
@Asgrim yes, only run for userland calls. For internal calls, you can use the normal trick of overwriting the function handler
Though cc @LeviMorrison
 
yeah I'm not sure why it's like that either
@NikiC even internal functions can end up immutable in shm
 
12:42 PM
@JoeWatkins I don't think functions can, but methods yes. It's something you can only overwrite on startup
 
yeah, only methods
 
iirc the thinking was that execute_internal already works fine
Unlike the userland case, it doesn't have issues with vm reentry
 
that's reasonable I suppose, although I see no problem with internal calls using the same api, nicer for the user of the api ...
it needs to use it really, you can only overwrite what you know you need to overwrite at startup, and a common use case is going to be enabling/disabling instrumentation at runtime
 
@cmb Looking again at libavif... it uses this version of AOM , yes?
 
12:53 PM
@NikiC could you have a look at the implicit float to int PR, as I'm stuck on one bit of the JIT, and one I'm confused about one behaviour of a test which differs in 32bit and 64bit handling
 
Then it shouldn't be hard to ask those folks to look into this. I don't see a way to file an issue there, but if you send me info about the build error you got, I can send it along to them.
 
cmb
@BenMorss see github.com/winlibs/libavif/runs/… (that happens for other files as well; search for "heap" in that log). Maybe SIMD has to be disabled for x86, but I wouldn't know how.
 
Neither would I; I haven't dealt with that sort of thing in a while :)

Thanks, I'll pass this along!
 
1:19 PM
Morning! Nice day for fishing, ain't it?
 
1:42 PM
@Crell unless fish
 
Huh ha.
 
@NikiC thank you, yes that seems to be what I found too :) glad I didn't just miss something. Would be cool if the Observer API could do both, but that's a good enough answer, thank you!
 
@IluTov I dislike static properties to begin with, so I'm not a fan of putting them in enums, either.
 
there's not much to love about the thought of an enum that uses a trait with static properties ...
 
1:56 PM
wait, enums can use traits????
 
Yes, but only for methods. Not traits with properties.
 
i wish i didn't know this 🤢
 
@JoeWatkins Congrats! I won't have time to catch up all the way because I need to get to work; how does it match up with the thing I started specifying yesterday? For instance, partial of a thing should make a Closure, even if the thing was a Closure already.
 
@Crell I don't like static in general. On the other hand, you can already achieve the same thing through other means, like abusing another classes public static variables. In general, I'm not a fan of restricting the language to babysit users if there's no technical reason to do so, like if it complicates implementing a future feature.
 
@Girgias As you touched these docs recently (I think) maybe you have some pointers on where they can be improved: bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=81036&edit=1
 
2:07 PM
@IluTov Eh. I won't fight it, but I won't do anything to make it happen, either. :-) Not sure if I'd vote for or against yet.
(Other than express my disapproval once or twice, but won't mount a campaign or anything.)
 
@NikiC Having a look, because I did work on that bit
 
@IluTov While you're here, how is the is patch coming? :-) Last I looked it was working for direct type checks, but we needed to add decomposition. Do you think that's still doable?
 
@LeviMorrison application always results in a new closure already ...
I'm not sure if those semantics make sense, and I'm not really focused on that right now anyway ...
 
@Crell It's doable, the things is just that I've done 0 coding in my free time in the last couple of weeks. The patch is working, we just need to make sure it is sound, and/or look if there are cleaner solutions. And as mentioned, we need to think about what to do with the ambiguity with |, and and or.
 
I mean they make sense, they're logical, but they look over-complicated, but they start out with this assumption that there is one list of parameters "start from left to right", there is no left or right, and there are two lists of parameters at application time
 
2:17 PM
@IluTov Do you think we need to include decomposition before we take it to the list? We at least need match() support on it, which I don't think was done yet. (I ask because I'm seeing more and more cases where using match for an instanceof would be very helpful, even aside from Enums. Like, type reflection if intersection types gets in, which I hope it does.)
 
Refresher, $foo is Bar|Baz can be parsed as $foo is (Bar|Baz) or ($foo is Bar)|Baz (bitwise or on the is expression). Likewise $foo is (Bar or Baz) vs ($foo is Bar) or Baz (is expr or Baz constant).
@Crell Decomposition of objects I assume?
 
@IluTov Right. I don't think we need bother with anything else right now. The more complex patterns (regex, array, etc.) can come Later(tm).
@IluTov I would marginally prefer interpreting it as $foo is (Bar|Baz), as that seems like the more common use case. But I would also be OK with just requiring the () in any case where it might be ambiguous. (Eg, I don't think it would be ambiguous in a match statement, which is probably the most common use case anyway.)
 
@Crell It's completely clear it should be $foo is (Bar|Baz). It's an ambiguity that is (AFAIK) not solvable with Bison.
 
Ah.
Still, if we have to say "in those cases, you have to use (), deal", I can die happy with that decision.
That still allows $foo is Bar and match($foo) is { Bar|Baz => ...; }, which I suspect are going to be far more common and still nice looking.
 
@JoeWatkins Perhaps it isn't clear, but that's what the "binding to position" type language is meant to cover.
 
2:26 PM
@IMSoP The two competing mental models for partials you mention is +1 insightful.
 
@LeviMorrison can you write an example where it makes sense to mix positional and named placeholders during application ?
 
$has = in_array(?, $array_of_values, strict: true);

$has(4);
$has(9);
...
 
I don't see any named placeholders
 
Oh, named placeholders. I misread.
 
@JoeWatkins I can give you an example, but I'm not sure it makes sense ^_^ Why do you need it to "make sense"?
Is there some technical problem?
 
2:34 PM
@SaifEddinGmati Are you still working on sealed classes?
 
Yea, but i thought i slow things down until @JoeWatkins is done with Partial RFC :)
 
They don't seem like they'd collide. Unless you're also drawing on Joe's dev time, and then... fair. :-) (All the more reason to get partials wrapped up.)
 
Yea, it's about time, not collision.
 
yeah I need to finish partials before I can start on something else, this is all consuming
 
Gotcha. Let's try and wrap it up then. :-)
I am also holding on reproposing pipe until partials starts voting, which seems polite at least.
 
2:37 PM
@Levi you can only use named arguments after positional ones
<?php
function foo(int $int, string $string, double $double) {

}

$foo = foo(?, int: ?, double: ?);
?>
I don't know what that means
 
Ah, yes, that should be added to the "Error if" section.
But that's an error anyway because you use $int by both name and position. That error is in there already.
But foo(?, double: ?, string: ?) should be legitimate, I think.
 
@Crell I don't know what to reply to your email other than, yeah that's correct lol
 
// equivalent to
fn (int $int, double $double, string $string) => foo($int, $string, $double)
 
@Girgias Just checking. :-) That would be an acceptable response. (And another reason for finishing match is.)
 
@JoeWatkins That's awesome!
 
2:41 PM
I admit I am highly worried about partials also becoming a param-reordering tool. That feels like dangerous scope creep.
 
I don't know what people need for reflection, so I basically copied the union type one
 
Does it matter though? I can do that with a closure now.
 
@Girgias Given that reflection is already a trainwreck, that seems like the wisest course of action, and it naturally extends to the future, which is rare for reflection. :-)
@Trowski Yes, but then it's very explicit and obvious that you're doing so. With partials, it's not so obvious.
 
It is lol, it was mostly fidling with the Reflection implementation to generalize it a bit more, but it was surprisingly the easiest bit
Compared to the headache the variance check part is
 
No doubt.
 
2:45 PM
i spent 4 months back in 2019 trying to figure out how to create a sane reflection API for Hack Lang, eventually i gave up.
 
@PeeHaa @Ekin @FélixGagnon-Grenier @Tiffany @DaveRandom My finished custom keyboard build! i.imgur.com/CLJzPgV.jpg
 
Reflection is hard to keep forward and backwards compatible as it reflects the changing language.
Personally I'd mark all of reflection as forever unstable, in the sense that what works on version X.Y is only guaranteed to work with X.Y.
 
@LeviMorrison That's probably fine to have a stability guarantee for patch releases only.
 
We shouldn't break things for the sake of it, but when the language evolves we need to be able to reflect that in reflection.
 
I'd be OK with breaking it in majors, as long as it's still possible to write code that works on two consecutive versions.
On minors seems too aggressive for tooling-centric projects to keep up. (Or larger projects that do their own introspection.)
 
3:03 PM
@StatikStasis :o very nice
How do the switches feel?
 
(gdb) r
Starting program: /opt/src/php-src/sapi/cli/php test.php
warning: Probes-based dynamic linker interface failed.
Reverting to original interface.
Function [ <user> function foo ] {
  @@ /opt/src/php-src/test.php 2 - 4

  - Parameters [3] {
    Parameter #0 [ <required> int $int ]
    Parameter #1 [ <required> string $string ]
    Parameter #2 [ <required> float $double ]
  }
}

Breakpoint 1, zend_partial_prototype_u (partial=0x7ffff7a86000, prototype=0x7ffff7a86138) at /opt/src/php-src/Zend/zend_partial.c:73
<?php
function foo(int $int, string $string, float $double) {
    var_dump(func_get_args());
}

echo (string) new ReflectionFunction('foo');

$foo = foo(?, double: ?, string: ?);

echo (string) new ReflectionFunction($foo);

$foo(42, 4.2, "string");
?>
I just am not convinced this is good
 
3:23 PM
@JoeWatkins This looks excellent to me! Can you try to be a bit more exact about what worries you?
 
@Tiffany Amazing!
 
@JoeWatkins Looks exactly like what I'd expect. If the original order should be preserved there's no reason to allow one to define the partial this way. I know that's hard to prevent from a technical standpoint but that doesn't mean it's good.
 
@LeviMorrison how long were you thinking about the example I asked for ?
how long do you think I thought before asking you for an example
 
Named parameters are new enough that there isn't a large corpus of functions that were designed for them, so it's a bit harder to provide good examples in this space.
 
that seems like proof to me that this behaviour, isn't intuitive, even if it makes logical sense ... if you don't agree that it's not intuitive, we have different definitions of intuitive ...
 
3:32 PM
I'm a bit busy today, so I'll find a good example eventually and ping you.
 
@JoeWatkins That behavior is what I initially expected, FWIW.
 
yeah, maybe it's just unfamiliar, I haven't done anything in this area internally before either because so new ... but I'm struggling to think of tests, and I just ... I can't see the edges nevermind test them ...
 
For now, this is a not totally-terrible example from Swift:
func logMessage(message: String, prefix: String, suffix: String) {
  print("\(prefix)-\(message)-\(suffix)")
}
In Swift, the first parameter by default doesn't have an external label, so you must provide it positionally.
The latter two can be called by name.
logMessage("Hello", prefix: "\n", suffix: "!\n");
And of course, with named parameters the order doesn't matter:
logMessage("Hello", suffix: "!\n", prefix: "\n");
 
@JoeWatkins I'm happy to come up with a few tests.
 
@LeviMorrison these oranges taste like apples
 
3:38 PM
I just mean that if you can find motivation examples of named parameters, then it hopefully is not too far to find motivation examples of named placeholders.
I'll look more later. Have to focus on getting a core dump to actually generate in php-fpm. Already have rlimit_core and there is a core pattern, but still not getting the dump.
I think this is the problem:
# cat /proc/sys/fs/suid_dumpable
0
Need to figure out how to change it a la kubernetes.
 
@Trowski let me have another 24 hours before I suck in anyone else's time ... if in twenty four hours I'm not much happier, I'll need some help from somewhere ...
I guess the model is forming more clearly in my head all the while I'm not looking at it ... so I'm going to not look at it for the rest of today ...
kubernetes is a word I know
 
Each ?, whether positional or named, will result in a parameter in the closure in the same order that they appear in the partial application arg list, adjusted positionally downward if there are concrete values to bind.
But the position that it calls the applied function with is based on the names for named placeholders, and positions for the positional placeholders. Error if required args are missing, or same thing is used twice, and so on.
I think you understand this, but I don't think it's been said. Sometimes saying it helps. Maybe not. Back to work for me, muting site so I don't get distracted again.
 
@JoeWatkins Here's a box packing library I've used in a couple e-commerce projects. Some of the constructors and methods have long param lists for creating items and boxes. Partials would be useful in cases of passing the same params to numerous calls.
Some constructors get rather… long…
 
3:53 PM
that a design mistake IMHO, partial shouldn't be the way to fix it.
 
@SaifEddinGmati "named parameters" are one theoretical "fix". Placeholders just make it easier if you need to make a Closure for such things.
 
@SaifEddinGmati That class is internal to the lib, so it's kind of terrible.
 
:52218545niiiice :)
 
This is about as bad as the public API gets.
 
@LeviMorrison non of the arguments are optional, so named parameters make no difference.
 
4:08 PM
It does for a partial call.
 
@SaifEddinGmati You can used named parameters on things that don't have default values.
 
@Trowski TBH, this ought to be two Vector3() DTOs…
 
@bwoebi Yeah, I've thought that before when using the library. I was just looking for examples for named params, not perfect design. :)
Overall it's an excellent library, in that it works well and is fast considering the task at hand.
 
That's easy. Switch to PHP. ducks
 
:-P
How do they plan to do that?
 
By working on it, I guess.
 
fair... I only really use it with RaspberryPi robots, remote controlled cars, etc... and that's with a 9-12 year olds writing the code :-P
 
@CraigFrancis I'm working on php libraries/extensions to make it more accessible to do the same using php =)
 
5:23 PM
nice, that will be interesting.
 
@CraigFrancis I have gpio and spi already working and one or two sensors/displays working too
 
If the kids get far enough, I run a web-server on the remote controlled car, with a wifi access point, so their phones can issue the directions via a web-page.
@FlávioHeleno ohh, that's all I need really... although having to use sudo, which I assume will still be the case for your project?
 
@CraigFrancis your user needs to be in gpio/spi groups
 
huh, I didn't know that... everything I've seen has talked about needing to run the commands as root... I'll see if I can get it out again later tonight.
 
@CraigFrancis cool, ping me if you need help :)
 
5:28 PM
raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/q/40105 ... yep, and that's been there for ages.
thanks for that
 
glad to help
 
@bwoebi Remind me again of the specifics as to why calling Loop::run() in a shutdown function was a bad idea. Context for asking.
I can definitely see where things can go wrong, but I don't have an specific examples of such.
 
I don't know the semantics of Loop:run anymore, but something that loops but will not block like libuv's UV_RUN_NOWAIT mode may make sense in destructors/shutdown functions.
 
@LeviMorrison This is suggesting using register_shutdown_function to automatically run the event loop, so the entirety of the app would be run after php_request_shutdown has been invoked.
Shutdown functions are run early there, but still… it feels wrong, even if I don't have a specific reason why.
 
@Trowski e.g. calling exit; does an immediate exit inside a shutdown function.
 
5:40 PM
I can potentially see issues with an extension using EG(flags) and making assumptions during shutdown, but beyond that I don't have any specific reason why it's wrong.
@kelunik That's a better reason at least.
 
Same might be true for uncaught exception, but that's just a guess.
 
Potentially, since that will call zend_bailout which looks to be ignored there.
Though it will still print the expected message, so no different actually.
 
@Trowski But does it still execute finally blocks and destructors then?
 
@kelunik It should since the bailout is caught.
An uncaught exception won't run other shutdown functions though, which doesn't match a normal uncaught exception.
Also then shutdown function registration order will matter. If any code loaded before the loop registers a shutdown function, it could be executed before starting the loop.
 
@Trowski I think the primary issues were with bailouts
 
5:57 PM
@StatikStasis \o/
 
6:15 PM
The moment when you think you found out where the problem is with the JIT
When it doesn't seem to be that
rinse and repeat
 
Small DOM question : I am trying to rename an attribute prefix and would expect this to work: https://3v4l.org/GptIf
However, it always uses the old prefix unless I remove the xmlns declaration first.
Is this a bug or rather an oversight? The source is only searching based on namespace uri, so it will use the first NS it can find : https://github.com/php/php-src/blob/1c8bb6d6818c10a691d6836b336bcee003478b44/ext/dom/element.c#L663
 
6:46 PM
@Asgrim You can use either zend_execute_internal or over-write the specific functions handler. The latter can only be done in minit/startup, not during a request. If it's in another extension, you can do it in zend_extension startup.
I'd like there to be some sort of hook that all http clients in the core distribution use so that you can append headers, like setting the Trace Context, without knowing about and hooking into each of them.
 
7:29 PM
o/
So I'm participating in this Neilson thing where they want me to wear some device on me that can detect what television station I'm watching, what radio station I'm watching, and even what Netflix show/movie I'm watching
It doesn't pick up any audio just signals in the air. I'm really confused how it could possibly work though
They said that modern Netflix shows/movies are encoded in a way that the device can pick up (purposely)
But if I'm connected to Netflix on my computer with SSL and everything coming to my computer is encrypted, how ever would that be possible
 
wear some device? o.O
 
@scorgn probably "audio steganography"
 
I actually didn't look into the article yet I just found it haha
 
7:35 PM
how much are you getting paid for this?
 
Not a lot I was moreso intrigued about it. I'm not 100% sure if I should go through with it
So... it does pick up audio then it seems
 
Yea, I'm pretty sure they'd get a big ol' fuck you very much from me
 
They said it didn't pick up audio but now I'm confused
 
How nielson even is still alive baffles me
 
@PeeHaa Boomers and inertia?
 
7:43 PM
They surely cannot get an accurate representation of the general public's watching habits because only specific personalities would accept wearing this thing that constantly listens to them
 
... have you met alexa recently?
 
Will be a cold day in hell before I knowingly consent to putting anything like Alexa in my house.
 
I wouldn't mind... if it was self hosted and firewalled
 
Yep, that'd be totally fine.
 
@scorgn I cannot see how it could possibly work without doing so, afaik it is not possible to detect the receiver of a radio signal, it's a passive activity
 
7:50 PM
I have a camera system, but hooked up to a NAS with access only through a VPN.
 
Brainwaves my dudes
 
@DaveRandom That's what I understood as well, about the receiving end
 
I'll never buy one of those "cloud" security cameras.
 
Same, my home CCTV goes through a VLAN and into my synology.
 
I have Google Home, I know when it is listening but Google can find out more from my searches than by listening in on me tbh
 
7:52 PM
@MarkR Synology is what I have too.
 
@Trowski they make sense in offices
 
I looked into unify cameras but their vendor lock is insane
 
not looked at it yet but I don't think they fill a gap in any market I ever work with
 
and tbh I've grown more and more disillusioned with their networking stack configuration
 
Yeah, I generally like Ubiquiti stuff but I wanted to use any IP camera.
 
7:54 PM
It's outrageous that you can't set up a modern VPN
 
Though I own no Ubiquiti equipment myself, heh
 
I use Eagle Eye Networks een.com for cloud CCTV installs, don't have many of them out there tho
 
Everything I have is Linksys.
 
I am unifi throughout except 2 switches now
(with cloud access disabled)
 
I use a 24 port Unify 1Gbps switch and the USG4 Pro, controller runs in a VM on the synology
 
7:56 PM
Right, I don't need to configure my router from anywhere. I can see where the feature might be useful for some circumstances, but most people should turn it off.
 
But the routing tools on the USG4 suck :| not worth the money I spent on it
 
@Trowski I have a couple of customers I inherited who retain control of their master admin, I use cloud access for those because that's how it came, other than that I'm good
if I want remote access to the local controller I will just VPN in :-P
 
I have some unifi products but didn't like how they handled arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/03/…
 
actually tbf I have moved most customers on to our controller that lives in AWS
 
And their apparent recent push towards cloud account access
 
7:59 PM
I have a solid recipe for nginx reverse proxy if anyone wants to make it letsencrypt friendly, btw :-P
@CharlesSprayberry yeh that is concerning, for transparency if nothing else
@MarkR I have a USG-3P and never encountered anything I needed it couldn't do (yet)
except not-overheat :-P
 
@DaveRandom Did you have to manually configure it via JSON? Because it only has pptp support in the UI
 
it's actually fine as long as you don't put it in a stack of other kit, but that is not a restriction I am used to with SOHO routers :-P
@MarkR no?
(that's the walkthrough I used to configure my l2tp, which works fine from my phone)
 
Ah yes L2TP that it has default, but as a client it doesn't have UI support for OpenVPN, Wireguard etc... both of which come as standard with appliances in the $100 range
 
@DaveRandom It has actually made me start researching potential alternatives. I don't like it when companies aren't transparent. Everybody is gonna fuck up, this industry is too complex not to at some point.
Owning it and taking steps to make sure it doesn't happen again are important to me
 
@MarkR ah yeh I can't comment on some of your more exotic VPN types, never actually tried with unifi
 
8:06 PM
From what I've seen / attempted it's a huge PITA where you have to create a huge JSON file and upload it to the controller
I'm planning on buying a Dell R210 II and installing pfsense on it
 
I detest pfsense, though I haven't seen anything from the last year or 3
iptables with a retarded UI
my issues with it were almost entirely UI based though I think, though it also had a really stupid leaky abstraction with virtual multi-port interfaces (i.e. subnwitches)
 
8:42 PM
just a sanity check, "proof of space and time crypto" is a dumb as it sounds, right?
Aug 31 '12 at 10:01, by deceze
Oh wait, it's still hot, lets juggle it over here. Ouch, still hot....
^ reminds me of this, "perhaps if we pointlessly consume a different resource?"
 
@DaveRandom Yes
Although I could be biased
At this point you tack "crypto" onto just about anything and I'm probably gonna roll my eyes
 
ditto, but anything touted as "the next bitcoin" is particularly significant, positive or negative
 
dogecoin is clearly the next bitcoin
 
every cryptocurrency model seems to be reliant on the idea that there is a small group of people who are rich in some pretend resource or other to "back it" somehow, I can't claim to be an economist but no possible configuration of that is sustainable surely
 
8:57 PM
not sure tbh... i didn't even think there was that
they have value because.... because
and, yea, it doesn't seem reasonable to expect that there's some entity out there with enough resources to actually backup the market value of all bitcoins
 
again, not an economist, but as I understand it regular currency hasn't worked like that for a while either
 
Fiat currency certainly hasn't, no
But I also can logically grapple with the idea that a fiat currency value is derived from the trust in the government that prints it
 
like everything used to be pegged to the dollar which was pegged to gold but the rules were basically just thrown out the window en-masse at some point in the latter half of the 20th century
I don't actually know what I'm talking about though
@CharlesSprayberry in practice a lot of it is still pegged to the dollar anyway I believe, I have seen people pay for stuff in USD in the UK in little independent shops
not for many years, admittedly
 
@DaveRandom For a lot of financial industries, yea. Though it has been changing more recently.
 
9:18 PM
The dollar was divorced from gold in the early 70s, by which point the relationship to gold was mostly theoretical anyway. Other currencies are valued in relation to the dollar, so if you're converting from GBP to Yen, for instance, you technically do so by converting GBP to USD and then to Yen. (I think that's roughly how it works, give or take computer instant changes.)
There are some caveats; eg, the Bulgarian currency is fixed at one half EUR, to help stabilize it.
Can someone explain to me how this is possible?

https://gist.github.com/Crell/471c5f24b4b8cabe4432304ec78e3e72 - How can I get an undefined array key error there? It doesn't seem possible for it to not be defined, since I define it just a few lines before.
 
sorry I got distracted by... surely that is not right
 
@DaveRandom There's been a huge, game-changing breakthrough in battery technology at least once a year since 2004, when I was working as an IT journalist. So far, none of it has made it into active consumer use. Until it appears in my phone or my car, I don't pay attention.
 
@Crell doesn't seem possible, is this an "only in prod" error where var_dump is hard?
only thing I got is invisible unicode, and I assume you already checked that
 
@DaveRandom Seems to only happen when running acceptance tests, where var_dump is hard.
 
I smell opcache
2
 
9:31 PM
No, but I did a find-highlight and the only mentions of tables_select are those three places.
 
@Crell fair comment :-P
 
I suppose I could try retyping all 3 of them myself, just to be extra sure... But I would have expected something like that to have broken somehow in 7.4.
 
@Crell by "no" you mean opcache enabled/disabled state makes no difference?
 
@DaveRandom No, I hadn't checked for zero-width unicode. Turning the opcache off would likely mean a test run takes about 4 hours.
 
@Crell I would just pull them up in an editor in hex mode, but sure :-P
 
9:33 PM
Does IntelliJ have one of those? :-)
 
that's a massively long shot though, it's so rarely that
 
I mean, I can likely work around it by throwing a ?? '' on the end of that line, but that feels extra dirty to me.
 
@Crell idk actually I always use editpadpro for that, out of habit from before PHP Storm existed
also I am a crazy windows user
 
Weirdo.
 
@Crell yeh that's patching a problem when you don't even know what the problem is, doesn't feel great :-P
 
cmb
9:37 PM
@Crell you're currently outnumbered :p
 
if you can't find it @Crell I would project $groupInfo to a proxy ArrayAccess object that logs field access method calls
 
If I knew how to arbitrary log things to this file during the acceptance test run I would just put var_dumps in already. :-)

There's another similar issue in here around a defined object property, but one black magic at a time.
 
if I were you I would seriously consider waiting the 4hrs for a no-opcache test run before doing too much banging your head against a wall
I just looked over the code again and it looks good, it sounds like horses so don't spend too much time looking for zebras :-P
is there really no way to capture output somehow though? what happens to stdout?
 
Then the question is how to disable the opcache in the container that's running the tests... :-)
I'm not sure. This is TYPO3's highly built-up container-based testing framework. Which is actually quite nice for casual use, but I don't know it well enough to really instrument it at a deeper level.
 
right, and I know nothing about it at all :-P
if you just dump unexpected shit to output will it not just hard-fail and show you a diff?
kinda neandertal debugging approach but better than nothing :-P
 
9:52 PM
No, it doesn't end up in the log file. I don't know if it ends up anywhere.
I'll have to ask around TYPO land.
 
feels like there will be a fairly easy answer if you can find someone who actually knows what they are doing :-)
 
/**
 * Frees as much memory as possible.
 */
public function __destruct()
{
    unset($this->someString);
}
That is utterly useless, correct?
 
according to every I know and everything even remotely sane, yes
 
That's what I thought. deletes
 
does anything other than circular object refs impact GC and memory releases at all from a userland PoV?
 
10:12 PM
@DaveRandom nah, only ever makes sense with circular refs
 
cmb
somewhere else in the class: $this->someString = $this :p
 
@cmb in this case you are anyway in the circular collector and it does not make any sense at all to have such a dtor
 
cmb
$this->__destruct()
 
haha :-P
 
lol :-P
@bwoebi what happens with arrays that have refs to themselves?
same mechanism?
 
10:18 PM
@DaveRandom yes
 
cool
 
11:08 PM
@cmb If I have a proposal for doc management, should I discuss that here or throw it to the docs list directly?
 
cmb
don't ask to ask :)
 
I'm not; I'm asking where to ask to get the best response. :-)
 
11:40 PM
@Crell In fact, having a destructor pointlessly like this makes the cleanup harder for the engine :)
Or it used to, anyway, don't know if my knowledge on that is current.
 
Oh good. Another reason to kill it with fire.
 
Or maybe it's just the internal equivalent I'm thinking of.
There's something like that.
 
Oddly the string in question is a session token. I don't understand why it was there, but I will burn it.
 

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