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12:01 AM
our souls
 
Not being ridiculed by the other languages in the schoolyard.
Why does ext/tokenizer/tokenizer_data.c have local changes after running make?
 
I don't know why, but I can say I had the same experience!
 
I mean, I get the reasons to have a formal spec and all that's for sure. I'm genuinely wondering how it benefits the maintainers, if it does
 
It made more sense when Facebook supported PHP on HHVM
In fact, Facebook donated it
I'm sure it also benefits PeachPie. I'm not sure the status of Quercus or PHP on Parrot, but if they're still active, then it benefits them, too.
I guess PHP on Parrot isn't active. Doesn't even look like Parrot is active. github.com/bschmalhofer/pipp
It was a valiant effort
 
12:32 AM
I know someone recently made a Graav VM experiment for PHP
But IIRC it was for his master thesis and his busy doing some other stuff now
 
Did php.net go down?
 
@ramsey Nope up for me (in the UK)
 
nevermind... it's back up. I was getting CloudFlare errors for a bit that said the host was the issue
 
@Girgias also, it boost impressive speed improvement over the Zend Engine, but barely implements any of PHP's feature which would probably make it way slower
 
well, all that shows me the wider picture on how it's useful to maintain
I was mostly trying to look at it from the perspective of day-to-day php-src development, I don't think it's much of a useful tool for php-src maintainers directly
 
12:41 AM
It's really not useful for php-src maintainer
But apparently "many" PHP devs want another runtime
 
12:54 AM
The only other runtime I think got much production use was HHVM. Maybe PeachPie has some users. shrugs
 
Obviously, but I also don't get why you want another runtime
 
I don't :-)
They're toys
 
1:12 AM
Do SplObserver and SplSubject make any sense to keep? Aren't they surpassed by WeakReferences ?
 
...are PRs accepted to the langspec?
 
They are
Now, who monitors them is another question :p
 
encoding issue on a page
I didn't realize how...thorough... the langspec is, even if it is outdated
hopefully there's still some relevance
 
1:48 AM
It should be mostly relevant
I still need to make the change for the numeric string RFC thing
 
2:04 AM
I set this up a while back as a way to make it easier to read the langspec: phplang.org
 
@Tiffany Facebook paid a guy who worked on several revisions of the C language spec.
I expect it's pretty darned relevant still,
Yeah, there's some new syntax to add, but not /that/ much.
IIRC we announced the completed version at OSCON '14, which means it was probably based on whatever was current in mid-2013
And some effort was expended to keep it up to date... some.
 
One of our projects has a memory issue. It's not even a problem I'm able to solve, but it's a puzzle that my brain won't give up. I noticed there's a hefty section on memory management, so I want to dive into that.
That is, it's not really my ability as to why I can't fix it, juggling other stuff that's taking precedence.
 
@Sara you wouldn't be an expert on how PHP deals with tick functions and user shutdown functions, would you?
 
@ramsey thanks for this :) easier to read on my phone
 
:-)
 
2:42 AM
Errr, what exactly is the "top level"? Is it like everything in between <?php and ?>, or is it something like before a class or function is defined, i.e. around the namespace definition? Or is it considered everything in between any scope-level container like a class or function, if they happened to reside in the same file.
 
2:54 AM
I don't know why but lately my mind has kept thinking about horrible things you could do with PHP
The latest one was to make method-less classes, but have them depend on a bunch of callable methods. Then just inject all the methods you need into the class using dependency injection.
It adds customizability to your classes :p
 
Ah yes, my greatest contribution to PHP
 
There are at least a couple of other weird PHP behaviors but I'm too sleepy to dig for them
@Girgias :D
 
I like the more complete version better :D 3v4l.org/vo0sa
 
haha nice
 
3:00 AM
It still makes me giggle like a maniac when I read it
 
@Girgias I'm just gunnu wrap the goto and the catch in a different class and just start writing out words without using quotation marks when doing peer programming
 
Oh wow, that even includes spaces between words
 
Someone will be like "You gotta add quotation marks...."
I'll be like "uhh, no you don't?" then run the code
 
I'm wondering if the spaces could be trimmed... you know... for science
 
@scorgn The only issue is that PHP doesn't do concatenation of strings à la C where "str1" "str2" gets converted to "str1str2"
Python does allow that tho
 
3:02 AM
Oh wait. You're concatenating an empty string.
That kills my evil plans.
 
@Tiffany Same, also makes it very easy to look up my tweet
 
@Girgias Oh yeah that makes sense
would just have to use single words then
 
Yeah, unless PHP starts allowing to catch ParseErrors
Anyway, I'm off to bed
 
I'm just going to start defining all of my classes like this and define the dependencies in my bootstrapping phase 3v4l.org/J0eMp
/night
 
@scorgn Where's your god type safety, now?
 
3:07 AM
That's the great thing about it is you don't have to define types, or even signatures at all, when you make your classes
Complete customizability
 
@scorgn wat
Not sure if serious
 
I'm just being silly
No that would be horrible xD
 
I was going to say, that's visual debt level of ridiculousness
 
Haha yeah I was just trying to think of the worst things you could do
 
:52147699 image not found?
 
3:13 AM
 
Lol
 
There we go :p
 
And on that note, I'm also crashing. Kitty making biscuits on me signifies kitty cuddle time
 
aww precious
Sleep well
 
3:57 AM
Is there a way to skip a test when running with valgrind?
I have a test that purposely does an OOM error, but it seems to cause valgrind to hang.
Might just be the hacked version to make it run on macOS.
Ah, never mind, figured it out from some other OOM tests :)
 
4:29 AM
@NikiC I cleaned up a few things and squashed the changes to two commits again: https://github.com/php/php-src/compare/master...trowski:fiber-bailout

I think that approach makes a lot more sense. Switching to {main} specifically for fatal errors felt like a hack. This seems correct because it will handle any bailout within a fiber and maintains current bailout behavior once {main} is reached. Unless you see something that needs changing I'll push that to master.
The sanitizer calls are necessary or otherwise the sanitizer complains about noreturn functions (_zend_bailout here) as the linked issue in the error message says it will unless those calls are made before/after switching fibers.
 
4:52 AM
@scorgn you can totally do this with Closure 😂
 
5:13 AM
file_get_contents('file.txt', maxlen: 123); ・ Documentation problem ・ #81018
 
5:28 AM
\o
 
6:09 AM
@ramsey True haha, well Closure is callable anyways so you can still pass closures in there if you wanted
 
@Trowski @bwoebi I don't like the idea of automatic threading any more; If I imagine an API where we omit communication we end up with something so simple such that it's probably not actually useful except in a small number of cases - it can't reasonably manipulate any complex types. If I include communication (and control) we basically have what I wanted to avoid, it's not really different to just proposing to include a more complicated version of parallel ...
except it degrades gracefully under nts ...
 
 
2 hours later…
8:33 AM
Uh, did PHP 8.0.6 and 7.3.29 not get released yesterday? @cmb @GabrielCaruso ?
@MarkR Hey! Would you be willing to chat about your Autoload Classmap RFC with me for the podcast?
@NikiC And, if you're willing, about the property accessors RFC? (Which is quite bulky!)
 
cmb
9:09 AM
@Derick 7.3.29 had nothing to patch :)
 
OK - that makes sense, but 8.0.6 had
 
cmb
yes, apparently @Sara forgot to announce the release
 
 
3 hours later…
11:50 AM
@Derick I still need to open an issue with composer to discuss it, if I can't get them on-board I'll be withdrawing the RFC.
 
@Derick there is no 7.3.29 (the regression was only in 7.4+), and indeed 8.0.6 announcement is missing (I have already ping @Sara and @GabrielCaruso about this)
 
@NikiC do I need to keep adding references for the arguments here: github.com/php/php-src/pull/5828? (also very annoying that the test failure it only happens on release builds even with sanitizers :( )
 
12:17 PM
I just read your RFC @MarkR and I think it's a nice extension to autoloading capabilities of PHP :-)
 
12:32 PM
@FlávioHeleno It's purely a micro-optimization for a common operation, but a vocal minority seem to want the ability to use it as a more general purpose and be able to set / reset / append it etc, which I think defies the purpose.
 
@MarkR IMHO, the RFC as is is a good addition to the language, the more general approach does not sound super important, unless I'm missing something..
 
@FlávioHeleno Given how nobody uses non-composer autoloaders anymore, it does not make sense to add any autoloading functionality that is not directly usable by composer
 
@NikiC I agree with your point. but would composer require thereset/append/etc capabilities to autoloading or just setting it would be enough? (my point is that I don't know if the extended methods - reset/append/etc - would be required besides what is already proposed in the RFC)
 
12:59 PM
Composer in production mode builds a static class map that it refers to first as part of its autoloader. Accessing that classmap involves 2 or 3 function calls, having those function calls directly inside PHP yields a 5 to 7% performance benefit vs invoking the userland functions (strictly comparing the autoloading and not the whole request).
 
@MarkR I am basically proxying my vote on that to Jordi. If he would use it in Composer, I'm in. If not, meh.
 
If it wouldn't be usable in composer i'd not put it for vote as it would be a waste of bytes.
 
1:28 PM
@JoeWatkins I cannot actually give proper feedback on this since I've not been doing cpu bound computations in PHP recently … I can imagine some scenarios, but most of what I'm doing is I/O bound ...
Tried to formulate some thoughts, but figured I'm too uninformed to estimate proper tradeoffs
 
@Girgias "expert" would be a very strong word. I know the basic mechanics of it...
@cmb Gah. That was yesterday. I fail. On it.
 
@Sara Right :D I'm trying to refactor it and it seems to work, but then some tests hang, and I have no idea why
 
1:52 PM
@Girgias CI seems to pass?
 
@Trowski Just to make sure I'm not misspeaking: You and the React folks are collaborting on a fibers-based event loop and a promises lib using it, yes? Or just the event loop?
 
@Girgias Also, you remind me: We should totally deprecate ticks
 
That will totally invalidate one of Cal's books!
 
Why? Do they.... tick you off?
((Don't actually need a reason, the joke was just lying there though))
 
rimshot.gif
 
2:01 PM
@Crell Yes on both, though that's not really meant to be publicized yet.
 
Oh. So I should not mention it in reply to someone on the FIG list asking why FIG hasn't started work on an asyn PSR yet? :-)
 
That's fine, FIG is a limited audience.
 
OK, thanks.
 
2:14 PM
What exactly are ticks useful for again?
 
lyme disease
 
Signal-interrupt driven code?
 
@PeeHaa Hmm… ticks sound more like a bug than a feature.
 
We can't remove them. It would be political scandal of under-representing people with tourettes
 
@Crell I think async signals handles this now.
 
2:18 PM
Is that part of fibers, or something else I don't know about?
 
@MarkR Right right… "why remove something that works perfectly well just because you don't use it" and other noise.
 
... so I have an "can't declare class xyz because already declared" but for a class in the vendor directory.
 
cmb
@Trowski doesn't work on Windows :(
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier composer dump-autoload again just to be sure something isn't borked?
 
let's see, though I've reinstalled and updated the packages a few times. yeah still the same
 
2:22 PM
@cmb Do signals work on Windows?
 
I'm not quite sure where to start investigating, I guess the line where I register an autoloader but I don't understand how it would be declared twice from an autoloader, isn't it supposed to include files only the first time it encounters a class? could there be some kind of race condition that makes it try to include twice?
 
I thought there were guards for that.
 
@cmb why not?
That should be os-independent
 
@NikiC Did you get a chance to look at that bailout branch?
 
cmb
@NikiC "This extension is not available on Windows platforms."
 
2:25 PM
@cmb ah well, then it's not relevant in the first place
 
cmb
@Trowski it's uncommon (there are other mechanisms), but apparently are supported
 
@cmb I'll be sure not to shut down a store app with it though.
 
Can someone with access to www tell me what's in the error logs right now? I reverted my announcement commit, but I don't actually see anything in it that could have broken anything.
^ @NikiC perhaps?
 
@Sara nope, don't have access to that box
 
Oh, thought you did. Hrmmm @derick ?
 
cmb
2:31 PM
@Trowski UWP should never have been a thing
 
Is there a way to run php-src CI without making a PR?
 
@cmb I've worked on a WPF app in the past and read about UWP all the time … just curious; what's are the main issues with UWP?
 
cmb
I think it's about vendor-lock-in
 
Well, site is back up after revert. So maybe I'll just do one lil' piece and a time then. :/
Or email systems@
 
cmb
maybe "PHP 8.0.18 has not yet been released" :p
https://github.com/php/web-php/commit/4148de77b22ffae0063c45e1340c1921146829e8#diff-87b4c59c2911273c7a0c0559848c9af5be719ad0b22e1eb21806d723867508b4R15
 
2:42 PM
@cmb Yes. That was a typo (copying from the 7.4 announcement), but I don't have confidence in it crashing the server. :p
((already fixed locally))
 
cmb
I had a look at the commit, and didn't find any real issues.
 
@Trowski no
 
Yeah, that's the thing, the commit is basic AF.
 
@NikiC Ok, I wanted to try the bailout branch on CI. I'll just make a PR first.
 
It's possible it's unrelated and just some shitty timing from our CDN.
 
cmb
2:46 PM
indeed
consider to mail sas (systems never replies)
 
@Sara sup?
 
@Derick Was regarding my email to systems@ wondering if you can peek at error.log files on www.php.net for me
 
let's see if I can
 
24 mins ago, by Sara
Can someone with access to www tell me what's in the error logs right now? I reverted my announcement commit, but I don't actually see anything in it that could have broken anything.
 
I need to rememher which host that is
 
2:53 PM
From around 14:20 to 14:25 UTC
heh, details
 
i think itps php-web4
 
My other plan is to just push bits and pieces of my announcement on file at a time until something breaks, but I don't fancy breaking things.
Though I'm also veering into blaming the CDN territory.
Or MY ISP. Might have just been AT&T being comcraptic
 
ugh, who sets timezones on servers to local time
 
Evidently we do. :p
"half an hour ago" if a relative time makes it easier.
 
@Derick Monsters, that's who
 
2:56 PM
wait... wtf... wait a minute
just a half a minute
\Where did I get the number 14:20 from?
oh right
christ my brain is fried
14:20 is correct
 
that's about half an hour ago
looks like fpm shat itself
 
date on my machine gave me 02:55 just now and I couldn't make sense of that
BECAUSE IT WAS USING AM/PM LIKE A SAVAGE
 
connect() to unix:/run/php/php7.3-fpm.sock failed (11: Resource temporarily unavailable) while connecting to upstream, client: 45.112.85.242, server: www.php.net, request: "GET / HTTP/1.1", upstream: "fastcgi://unix:/run/php/php7.3-fpm.sock:", host: "www.php.net", referrer: "https://www.php.net"
 
Woah.... so something legit >crashed<
 
that IP is the CDN host
 
2:58 PM
Right, inbound from CDN makes sense The unix socket being like "fuck off" doesn't.
 
I think it was a coincidence, just push it again
 
I think so too.
 
looks like something was hammering the server at that time
so - push it again?
 
Solid theory.
Thanks for the help!
 
I'll stay logged on for a few longer
 
3:01 PM
<3
 
You fixed the 8.0.18 bit in it too?
 
I mean, 14:20 has 420 in it, ofc it's ok /s
 
?
 
Yes :D
"420" is a reference to that marijuana plant the kids like to keep in their dorm rooms so much
 
/me rolls eyes
 
3:05 PM
Unrelated; We should probably think about when the special php8 announcement page should either come down, or be updated to include 8.1 hotnesses.
 
I'm inclined to suggest taking it down (the pages can remain, but remove the link from the nav bar). Maintaining translation consistency without any of the manual's systems for doing so is probably a bad idea.
 
I'm trying to figure out where the cron for this thing is
 
@Sara yeah, if we add a 8.1 page it should be a new one, not an update
 
what else could run temporary things besides cron?
 
3:07 PM
at
 
something modern that people use
 
IFTTT?
 
@Tiffany I keep forgetting you are a week older than me, let me know what feels like to hit the number
 
And batch, evidently
 
wait, that page was designed by an actual product marketing manager, we've never had one of those before ... we have spanish, german, and french people in this room that can translate an update
 
3:10 PM
@JoeWatkins @ramsey @PatrickAllaert - That's actually a great RM task to pick up. Get a conversation going about deprecating the old 8.0 announcement and (maybe) making an 8.1 announcement.
@JoeWatkins The original version was given to us by JetBrains, many community folks offered the translations. The spanish one was by my wife, for example.
 
yeah but I mean the idea for it came from pmm from jb, and it probably done whatever they wanted it too, and we suck at marketing ... so let's not just take it down for translations, because we can get those no problem ...
 
I wouldn't remove it, just make sure it's on an 8.0-specific URL that can be left forever, then put up an 8.1 marketing page instead that can do the same.
 
@Crell I did make sure it was namespaced properly (wasn't initially), ya welcome.
And yes. I'M NOT SAYING DELETE THE PAGES.
 
@Sara That's because you're cool. :-)
 
@Trowski New bailout handling looks good to me. This makes much more sense than before
 
3:13 PM
@Sara catching up the subject...
 
I'm saying remove the link from the main nav bar in favor of something addressing 8.1 and later.
 
@Trowski The part I don't really get is why the bailout change necessitated the sanitizer change, while it mostly worked previously
Doesn't that indicate that we're performing some kind of cross fiber access?
Which is not necessarily bad, but I'd like to understand where this is coming from
 
@Sara Oh. Yeah, totally. I'll go back to idling now.
 
cmb
@Sara IMHO do no longer allow translations; that didn't go well (there was even a translation nobody could review.
 
Now, whether or not we /need/ an announcement for 8.1-x is another question
 
3:15 PM
@Sara yeah that ... when I said update, I didn't mean update the page in place, I meant do something sensible like that, but the idea of the page was probably a good one that done whatever it was supposed to do
 
@Derick systemd timers
At least I found myself using them for everything now…
 
@NikiC I agree it feels correct compared to the fatal error hack. The error stems from calling a noreturn function within a fiber. Without notifying the sanitizer that the stack has changed, it doesn't understand why more calls are happening after a noreturn has been called. Prior we never called a noreturn function in a fiber in any of our tests, but I found calling zend_bailout in a fiber caused the same error. So it was needed before, the tests didn't show it.
 
@cmb I think a few translations is fine. I also think the decision on that one was correct. We need to have someone in a trust position to validate it. Running it into google translate may or may not be enough, but it's certainly work.
 
@Trowski oooh, that makes sense
I think after these changes I can also drop the hack in the fuzzer again
 
Personally, I'd go UN languages: English, French, Spanish. Maybe add Chinese because that's a large non-latin category.
 
3:18 PM
@Trowski that's a good bit of detective work
 
@Trowski I don't have an idea yet how to fix xdebug's showing of stacks with fibers. Xdebug doesn't rewind the current stack for example, but pushes onto its own when a new function runs (through hooking into execute_internal and execute_ex) and pops if of when that function ends. I don't think that's compatible with the fiber stop/resuming?
 
@NikiC Yep, I was going to mention that.
 
cmb
@Sara okay, but then state in advance which languages are acceptable :)
 
@cmb Another thing the 8.1 RMs should make part of their planning for it. :D
 
Could make sense to setup a pattern we can follow with next major releases.
Something like this?:
From the top banner: link to last (released) top major version announcement page.
From https://www.php.net/releases/: Adding a list of all the existing announcement pages.
 
3:20 PM
Initially, it was supposed to be restricted to "only languages we have current manual translations for" which is also a fine criteria.
 
@cmb anything where two humans agree that the language is correct ... it would have only taken one more human to review that PR ... the fact that there wasn't at least one more human just says it's probably not necessary ...
although I'm not sure what point there is in having that page in a language that the manual isn't translated into ... that might be annoying if you only understand the announcement page ...
but if someone wants to put the effort in, and then another person okays it, it feels wrong to exclude them and say they can't have it in their language ... so I dunno ...
 
@JoeWatkins That's where I landed too. :/
 
cmb
@JoeWatkins I guess it wouldn't be hard for me to find someone to approve a PR which adds "PHP is deprecated; use Python instead". :p
 
@Derick I think you'll need to subscribe to the fiber switch observer and switch the stack xdebug is displaying.
 
3:24 PM
maybe an external service could validate that there's no glaringly inappropriate things in the translation?
 
@Trowski Can you point to a reference implementation of that?
 
/me starts working on a Klingon translation of the announcement page
 
@cmb everyone is acting in good faith all the time ... even if they appear irrational and crazy ...
 
I can give Welsh an attempt :D
 
3:26 PM
Heghlu’meH QaQ PHP 8.1 jajvam
Actually, a Welsh translation sounds brilliant
 
My Welsh isn't great though :-)
 
A BAD Welsh translation sounds even better.
We could push the Welsh just over that line of being pissed off at the English and finish breaking apart the UK.
((I take it as a given that Scotland and NI are ready to fuck off))
 
I think my gaelic is better than my welsh, actually.
 
Yeah... php.net shows release announcement just fine. Merely a transient error then.
 
Scotland won't go independent. It also makes no ffing sense (economically) All their arguments are exactly the same as the pro-Brexit arguments, and we're seeing how well that's working out.
 
cmb
3:31 PM
@Sara p'takh :p
3
 
@Derick These observers, which are registered here are invoked just before switching into a fiber and just after switching out of a fiber. *from and *to can both be NULL to indicate {main}.
When switching from a fiber to another fiber, the from fiber will have a status of RUNNING. The to fiber will either be INIT or RUNNING.
 
Does each fiber have an ID?
 
@NikiC Yeah because I readded the loop adding refs, prior to that a Closure with a byref argument wasn't working on release builds (and yes we should get rid of them...)
 
When suspending from a fiber to another fiber, the from fiber will have a status of SUSPENDING, RETURNED, THREW, SHUTDOWN, or BAILOUT. You can & with FINISHED to check for any of the terminating statuses.
 
@Trowski Because I'm going to have to maintain a stack per fiber...
 
3:41 PM
@Derick No, use (uintptr_t) *zend_fiber.
 
that doesn't make for a nice 0-based index :-þ
and wouldn't they get reused?
 
They could, but you should be releasing the prior stack before it's reused.
You can create a stack when to->status == INIT, and release on from->status & FINISHED.
 
OK, that should be documented somewhere ;-)
(if it isn't already)
 
No, where would be best place be to document that?
 
3:45 PM
Will add that to the list under adding the Fiber class docs to php.net. :)
 
@Trowski Set it up on your fork and run a PR against your fork, that's what I do sometimes
 
@Derick I'm happy to help as much as I can, but I am totally unfamiliar with Xdebug. Do please ask how to do something if it's not obvious. The API can still change if needed.
@Girgias That works? Neat.
 
@Trowski Sure, that's why I'm having a look now. And FWIW, this is/was one of the biggest issues with Xdebug supporting Swoole too. They made a weird fork of xdebug (sdebug) but it's not a patch I can accept.
@Trowski What would be a reasonable assumption for the number of fibres that would typically be running at the same time?
 
@Derick Long ago I tried Xdebug + Swoole and it crashed and burned. Probably not true today, but that's a long way from the stack trace being weird.
 
3:59 PM
oh no, it still crashes and burns with plain xdebug
 
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