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12:39 AM
@SaifEddinGmati What is this meant to do?
I don't get it .-.
 
@Girgias It looks like you can "seal" classes to only be extended by certain others?
 
oh
Also Levi, as you've done the co-variance PR I might ask you to review my Intersection PR with the variance checks, I think I've covered all of them tm, and got a reasonable model for them
 
@Girgias Link?
 
I'm actually working on having full support for composite types, as it's not that much effort now
 
Meaning supporting (A&B) | C ?
Also, please do not rely on precedence -- make parenthesis required when mixing (non-associative with each other).
 
12:52 AM
AAAAAAAAAAA, I was hoping just using precedence would be fine... as that's way easier to support
Because I don't need to normalize or use recursion
But you're the second one asking for that so...
 
Oh, you can just forbid it in the precedence table. It's really easy -- I wrote a grammar that parsed a long time ago.
"non-associative" is a thing
@Girgias Was the first Nikita?
 
@LeviMorrison Nope Saif
I don't think Nikita gave me his opinion on that yet
@LeviMorrison NGL I'm pretty bad at this parser thing, so if you still have it, or want to work together on this let me know
 
I'm not loving this name T_AMPERSAND_NOT_FOLLOWED_BY_VAR_OR_VARARG lol
 
It is terrible yeah
 
... you split & into two tokens?
 
1:00 AM
Yeah otherwise you get a shift reduce conflict
 
With?
 
Because of & for reference args
Don't ask me why
Bison just complains
 
Ah yes, I remember this. I don't remember how I resolved it (it was not with splitting it into 2 tokens lol)
 
And I didn't do that because I got stuck but Iliya :-/
 
Seriously... how did you think of that?
It's terrible but in a brilliant sort of way.
 
1:01 AM
Well I just got stuck, but could work on it with return types
As they don't have that issue lol
@LeviMorrison @IluTov I think that's a compliment for how you solved the parser ambiguity for intersection types :P
 
I wonder if I still have the branch... what would I have named it? That's the question.
Wish I started the convention of naming my branches levi/$whatever earlier >.<
 
Huh, that's a smart convention
 
Ah, GitHub has a "Yours" tab in branches.
Aha! github.com/php/php-src/compare/… (the whole file, not just that line)
The grammar has changed since then, but should be able to do something similar.
/cc @Girgias and @IluTov
 
1:20 AM
Nice!
How old is that branch?
 
Ah wait, this version doesn't support compound ones. Was pretty sure I did that somewhere (the grammar, not full impl).
> Commits on Apr 22, 2016
 
Because it feels you didn't have a zend_type/zend_type_list struct available to you at that point
Oh
That's old indeed :D
 
This was a precursor to the first union types attempt ^_^
 
That explains it :)
 
Do you want me to implement the grammar or do you want to take a stab at it?
 
1:24 AM
Honestly, I can try but I'm far from understanding how Bison works, the only reason I managed the grammar was because it was mostly a copy/paste of the union type one lol
 
This is one case where a formal education at a university actually helps.
I tinkered with grammars before taking the class, but after my computational theory class it was much easier to do.
 
I really should have done Comp. Sci. instead of maths lol
 
I would say that only depends on how good the CS program is ^_^
 
I think the one from Imperial College London would be up to par :p
 
The university I went to had a decent CS program, as determined by people who rank such programs across the nation. I still found it quite poor overall, which says something about why we have such a hard time getting good graduates out of schools.
But, it was good for some things, like helping me better understand grammars, which actually interests me (I suspect most people did not enjoy this part of the class)
 
1:40 AM
Talking to some of the guys doing CS I think they needed to write a compiler for a made up langage
 
At my university this class was different from the compilers one; this one was a prereq for the latter.
I never took the compilers class.
I would have if I decided to finish the degree. It was just too hard working full time, having a family, owning a home, and still trying to finish the degree.
 
Yeah that seems like a lot, anyway it's 3AM here, and I should probably sleep
Did a bit of cleanup on the variance check bit
 
2:08 AM
...uh, wow, I got a lot of warnings from running doing ./buildconf
 
2:19 AM
Seems it's the autoconf 2.70/2.71 upgrade. I thought it may never get an upgrade; last was like 10 years ago!
 
3:16 AM
@Girgias Well... new optional flags make this more difficult than the previous patch.
Sadly, it's a case where it actually isn't ambiguous; it's just not a capable enough parser to see the lack of conflict.
I can fix one of them by making it right-recursive instead of left-recursive though -- let me see if that helps.
First example: top_statement_list function returns_ref backup_doc_comment '(' optional_visibility_modifier type_without_static • '&' type_without_static '&' is_variadic "variable" backup_doc_comment possible_comma ')' lexical_vars return_type backup_fn_flags '{' inner_statement_list '}' backup_fn_flags ';' "end of file"
Second example: top_statement_list function returns_ref backup_doc_comment '(' optional_visibility_modifier type_without_static • '&' is_variadic "variable" backup_doc_comment possible_comma ')' lexical_vars return_type backup_fn_flags '{' inner_statement_list '}' backup_fn_
That's the remaining one. To fix it, I think I have to split the rules for is_variadic so that it can 'see' the non-empty rules.
 
3:58 AM
Ah, no, that's not it at all.
The trouble is the intersection type is not at the same "level" of the grammar.
 
4:10 AM
function foo(A & B & $var) {/* ... */}
To be honest, although that's not technically ambiguous if your parser is good enough, wrapping it in parens solves it for humans and parsers alike:
function foo((A & B) & $var) {/* ... */}
Always requiring parents around intersection types would also avoid the precedence stuff for unions as well.
Which is to say, it may be an acceptable solution, albeit annoying in some small way.
s/parents/parens/g
 
 
1 hour later…
5:19 AM
Always requiring parentheses around intersection types in a parameter list may be an acceptable solution, I mean.
 
6:04 AM
Okay, I have all the parsing stuff worked out... I think. However, it requires changes to compiler because I had to switch things from left-recursive to right-recursive and this changes the parse order, which changes the resulting AST structure.
 
6:34 AM
... nope, there are places I don't allow parenthesis but should.
Ugh, I am pretty sure static as a type should just not be a thing. The damage it did to the grammar... just, wow.
@NikiC I think our grammar is unsustainable. We can't keep forking rules like this to exclude this thing here and this other thing there.
If we use types-after-variables like Rust, we immediately fix the static issue and the intersection/reference issue.
I'm going to sleep on it and wait for your response before sending anything to the list, but I'm serious about the grammar being unsustainable.
We should seriously consider types-after-variables for 8.2.
 
6:58 AM
If we can support before or after on the same grammar rules and then forbid having both in the compiler, that would prevent an explosion of rules.
s/8.2/8.1/
Or we could forbid both in the actions part of the grammar somehow -- that's an option too.
Okay, I just verified that at the grammar level it's easy to do.
 
 
2 hours later…
8:51 AM
basically same as:

https://docs.oracle.com/en/java/javase/15/language/sealed-classes-and-interfaces.html and https://docs.hhvm.com/hack/attributes/predefined-attributes#__sealed
 
@LeviMorrison Maybe it's our parser that's unsustainable? ^^
 
 
1 hour later…
9:57 AM
Q: with sealed classses/interfaces/traits features, we can declare Throwable sealed to Error and Exception, but currently, allow of people have ExceptionInterface that extends Throwable in their libraries/frameworks, this means all of these interfaces will break, unless we don't. however that means Throwable will still be a special case in the engine.

so i came up with a solution around this, that might be good enough to make Throwable sealed without breaking existing APIs.

interfaces declared sealed, can be extended by other interfaces, however, classes that implement either the sealed i
does it make sense to add this complexity in order to bring consistency between PHP and user land?
or Throwablecan be declared sealed, and have a special case for it in the engine allowing it to be extended ( which would still be a special case )
 
 
1 hour later…
11:01 AM
my first RFC ( draft ) created, sent to internals 🎉 huge thanks to @JoeWatkins
4
 
@SaifEddinGmati Please adjust your mail client, your email ended up being in my spam folder. :/ I guess that's what Nikita experienced a few weeks ago.
 
oh :( i will create another email for internals i guess, couldn't figure out what is wrong exactly
 
11:18 AM
processed headers on GMail include this:
Authentication-Results: mx.google.com;
       dkim=neutral (body hash did not verify) header.i=@protonmail.com header.s=protonmail header.b=ez4c6VxG;
       spf=pass (google.com: domain of internals-return-114116-rowan.collins=gmail.com@lists.php.net designates 76.75.200.58 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="internals-return-114116-rowan.collins=gmail.com@lists.php.net";
       dmarc=fail (p=QUARANTINE sp=QUARANTINE dis=QUARANTINE) header.from=protonmail.com
 
yea, this seems to only happen on Gmail, not sure why.

should i send the internal email again using my new email?
 
might be a good idea; you say only on GMail, but DMARC is doing its job here, I think
unfortunately traditional mailing list software is basically indistinguishable from mail spoofing
the list software is already rewriting some of the headers to make the SPF pass, but because it doesn't rewrite the "From:" header, the DMARC test fails
 
i tried setting up azjezz@void.tn using zoho.com, but i think it will end up in spam for the same reason
 
11:33 AM
seems like there is list software out there which will rewrite things so DMARC passes, but that comes back to the "we don't have anyone to manage infrastructure" problem
 
I have sent another email using azjezz@void.tn, can you please confirm it didn't end up in spam?
otherwise I'm going to have to use Gmail T__T
 
that one seems to have authenticated OK \o/
 
just so you know, it's not the client that made the difference, but the sender domain
all the verification is done against "void.tn", and that doesn't publish a DMARC record
 
11:48 AM
the answer is easy: switch to a modern open source web platform, and the community will contribute.

the community is full of web developers, who are willing to help, but not with this stuff.
 
that's part of the solution
you've still got infrastructure somewhere running it all
 
that is also solvable, don't maintain your own severs, seek a SAAS provider who is willing to provide it in exchange of publicity ( having their logo in the footer + a thank you ).
 
yep, that's definitely the way I think we should be going
if we had that, they could make sure ezmlm was up to date, or manage a migration to MailMan, or whatever else, and the DMARC problem would go away, for instance
 
there's no valid reason to keep the mailing list IMHO, a modern web discussion platform works well ( e.g: flarum.org discourse.org )
 
meh; there's exactly as much reason as there ever was
it's not like e-mails are deprecated
I'm quite happy using Thunderbird on my PC and K-9 Mail on my phone
I'm sure I'd get used to a web-based alternative, but I have no particular need for one
 
11:58 AM
ability for The PHP group to lock heated threads, delete spam, enforce rules ..; overall, more control.
 
that's fair; although the political can of worms of who should have that control would be huge
 
@SaifEddinGmati congrats ...
 
"The PHP Group" is more of a historical artefact than any reflection of governance; I guess we'd need to appoint forum moderators in some way
or go the other extreme, and give most tools to any trusted user, like the "room owners" on this room
of which there are currently 40
 
i think we could have forum mods that are voted on by internals
 
yeah, that's the most common approach, I think
just be prepared for some flame wars while we decide on that process, and what powers to give them
 
12:09 PM
I don't want to advise people on how to use mysql to create a facebook clone ...
I like the idea of something more modern, but like already said, email hasn't been deprecated
and if there was a php forum, just imagine the amount of spam and silly questions we'd get ...
someone would have to deal with that ...
 
yea, no doubt people will come in to post such stuff, but i think we could have a general discuss place for people to talk about whatever, and internal channel which is more heavily moderated against such things
 
not sure about that; the general discussions would need some moderation, to not turn into a pit of ... well, reddit
better to just be aggressive with "deleted as off-topic"
 
well the sort of people that would be dealing with that are the same people that do doc and other sys maintenance tasks ... I'd much much rather they were doing something more useful than moderating spam we invited ...
 
yeah; I guess there's some value in having a bit of a barrier-to-entry
 
that you have to put in some effort to get in contact is probably a good thing, and that it's down to each person how they moderate discussions is also a good thing ...
@IMSoP pro tip, delete mail and messenger apps from your phone ...
if I go away for an extended period and I'm not working in that period - can't imagine how that would happen - I'll re-install them ... but I removed them more than a year ago and it's the best thing that ever happened to my phone ...
nobodies lives are depending on the shit we do, any body can wait for me to get back to my desk, for anything ... I don't actually need to read emails, take calls, or respond to conversations any time I'm awake ... it took me more than a decade to see this clearly ...
 
12:22 PM
I have no work-related comms on my phone, unless you count PagerDuty
I have a chatty family WhatsApp group, and personal and mailing list e-mails
I used to have the Twitter app installed, but realised I was mostly using it for pointless arguments with strangers, so that's gone
 
bbc news, twitter ... and grindr :D
 
lol
I'm happily married, so I'll pass on that one
 
I removed everything else ... I got sick of doing everything with my phone in my hand, like it's under my pillow, I'm putting on the top of the toilet while I pee, it's everywhere, and always buzzing about something that could easily wait 10 minutes, or an hour, or until tomorrow in most cases ...
I'm happily married too, very happily, to a female ...
 
Stack Overflow is my current addiction, tbh; twenty years ago, it was h2g2 (before smart-phones - I just wouldn't get up from the PC)
 
12:29 PM
I've been forcing myself to do other things for the last couple of years, I just can't do thinking really hard all the time ... and I have to work hard to think, it's exhausting ...
you ever get a headache from frowning ? I get this all the time, it's literally from frowning at my screen, and stress I suppose ...
 
on which note, I should probably get up from the screen...
 
12:45 PM
In the past 24 hours I took my broken pressure washer apart, cleaned it off, ordered new parts and reassembled it to (working) new condition. Bigger payoff than 95% of the work I do. Something tangible at the end of it.
Everyone needs a break from hard thinking every now and then
 
 
2 hours later…
2:21 PM
Amen.
 
@NikiC The specific case of static wouldn't matter via upgrading the parser, I think? But some of the other cases would be easier, yeah.
Still, I think not upgrading the parser makes it easier to write tooling.
 
DGF
2:38 PM
Hey. Some of you recommended me to use `password_hash` and `password_verify` to register/check user password.
I saw that when using `password_hash` with `PASSWORD_DEFAULT` it will use `bcrypt algo` that return an 60 char hash. But... the default hashing algo could change in future updates. That would mean that if changed to hash that return e.g. 100 char and when using password verify it would not match.

The options I think are:
1) instead of using `PASSWORD_DEFAULT` explicity use `PASSWORD_BCRYPT`
 
@PeeHaa sadly its not just adding an item in the list of supported versions when i look at the massive refactoring of appveyor.yml for xdebug to support 8.0
 
@DGF it would still match, as the hash returned by password_hash contains the algorithm, you don't have to supply which algorithm to use to password_verify
 
cmb
@beberlei the most relevant changes are not really related to PHP 8, but rather to always use the latest revision of a given major/minor version (github.com/xdebug/xdebug/commit/…)
I can offer help with upgrading. :)
 
DGF
@SaifEddinGmati Hmm, so password verify just knows what algo to check based on the hash. So, I can keep using PASSWORD_DEFAULT and the only thing I need to worry is allowing 255 char in DB just to prevent any future problems?
 
DGF
2:48 PM
Okay, got it. Thank you!
 
3:05 PM
@SaifEddinGmati Ah so it's not the same concept as IMSoP's previous RFC
Seems reasonable at a glance
 
you mean locked classes?
 
I'm talking about the RFC/Branch Joe made
I haven't read it yet
 
oh, it's the same thing, Joe named it "friends", but i IMO "sealed" fits better
 
3:25 PM
@IMSoP i hosted an instance for testing here: cloud.void.tn
@NikiC what do you think about this as an alternative to mailing lists?
 
Sealed seems like the more standard name.
 
@SaifEddinGmati where are registration credentials stored? how is that handled?
is it third-party, or your server?
 
that may be problematic :/
 
currently that's just an example, not planning on keeping it up
 
3:35 PM
ahh
 
database will be lost when the machine restarts anyway lol ( it's a server running in my friends apartment )
 
though, you and @DaveRandom fall in the same boat of hating on email
Mar 16 at 21:35, by DaveRandom
email is fundentally unauthenticated, unauthorised and unencrypted, everything else has been built on the side and none of it works properly... it won't come close to bitcoin, but I dread to think how much energy is wasted on transiting garbage emails and running them through incredibly complex spam filters, when we have had better technologies for my entire life time
Mar 8 at 15:53, by DaveRandom
communication is a universal problem, we need to fix the things we have instead of https://xkcd.com/927/
 
well, a forum works well, easier for people to engage in conversations, and we don't have to deal with stuff like this: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/52058389#52058389
 
3:51 PM
@Tiffany and that one email is going right to spam when sending emails to internals because the mailing software is doing some weird stuff, so i had to setup a new email ...
 
I didnt' read the messages at the top :P was digging down below because this has been a topic of discussion before
 
4:09 PM
@SaifEddinGmati FYI You should bottom post and not top post on the mailing list
 
@Girgias 👍
 
Hm. Sealed classes + Nikita's constant "new" expressions... Doesn't that effectively give us ADTs by another syntax?
 
hmm, wonder if this would work:

sealed class Shape permits Circle, Square {
public const Circle = new Circle();
public const Square = new Square();

private function __construct() {}
}

class Square extends Shape {}
class Circle extends Shape {}
 
Exactly what I'm pondering.
 
well, yea
well, Square and Circle would need to be declared final, not sure how new works in constant if the construct is private tho, and in this case you can still have other instances of Circle and Square using reflection ( new instance without constructor )
Oh, you can also have other instances using tagged union 🤔
but enums can extend other classes AFAIK, right?
 
4:21 PM
Not the current enums, no. ADTs as planned MAY use subclasses internally, or not, we're not sure.
sealed class Maybe permits Some {

  public const None = new self();

  static public function Some($x) => new Some($x);

  public function value() => throw new NotFoundException();

  public function bind(callable $c) => static::None;
}

final class Some extends Maybe {
  private $val;
  private function __construct($x) { $this->val = $x; }

  public function value() => $this->val;

  public function bind(callable $c) => new static($c($this->val));
}
 
yea, that would work
 
(If we get match is support, then you could also use a match() statement for those methods instead.)
 
https://github.com/azjezz/psl/tree/1.7.x/src/Psl/Result

`ResultInterface` would be sealed to `Failure` and `Success` :)
 
I disagree with your interface choices there, but yes, essentially. :-)
FTR, I am also on team "use attributes for this".
echo match($e::class) {
      BarException::class => 'bar exception',
      BazException::class => 'baz exception',
    };
Oooo... I hadn't even though of using match() in that fashion! That's neat!
It becomes a back-door way to an instanceof match. Kind of. :-)
"using per-reserved for keyword: " - Don't you mean "pre-reserved"? Or really "already reserved"?
 
@Crell yea, typo :p
@Crell to me that's cleaner than match(true) { $e instanceof ...
 
4:34 PM
The difference is that it doesn't handle inheritance. Though match ($foo) is { ClassA => ..., ClassB => ... }; (via pattern matching) would be even better, especially if it supports object decomposition.
 
considering ExceptionInterface is sealed and both implementations are final, there's no inheritance ;)
 
In that specific example, sure. But there's plenty of other more generic cases where you do want inheritance to be checked.
 
So it's a good trick that works today, but doesn't preclude a better pattern match syntax.
 
If you are not convinced with cloud.void.tn yet, i have added clippy
 
4:36 PM
Convinced of which?
 
replacement for mailing list :p cloud.void.tn
 
Oh don't even go there. Not having that conversation, no.
 
can't add clippy in my email client
 
@SaifEddinGmati I'm not really sure what I'm looking at on that forum; is there anything in particular you wanted to highlight? Feature-wise, good threading support would be high up my wishlist - branching sub-threads, ability to split and join threads, that kind of thing.
 
@NikiC Looks like this line in zend_vm_def.h means there will always be a reference to an object when within a method call, is that right?
 
4:45 PM
@Trowski yes
(that's why (new SomeObject)->doOp() works
 
Thunderbird's thread trees are a life-saver when it comes to busy threads
 
@bwoebi Ok, well then that confirms there's no reason to have an extra reference to a Fiber object when it's running, since with the current API there had to be a reference when start/resume/throw was invoked.
 
@IMSoP it has good threading support, multiple tags ( keeping everything separated ), and notifications per mail/web are configurable in user settings, basically just put it there as an example on how it could look like, you can sign up with dummy credentials ( there's no email verification ), and try it out.
 
The FiberScheduler API required extra references, but that's because scheduling was handled internally and it was possible to drop all external references to the Fiber object between scheduling the fiber and suspending again.
 
that's what threads look like for me right now
 
DGF
4:52 PM
I'm using this to update user info: https://3v4l.org/0PLq9
This returns the affected rows if there is any user already using e.g. the email the user is trying to update.
But I don't actually know what data (email/username, etc..) is already being used by other user. Is there a way (some PDO method) to also get the name of the column that is affected while also getting the affected rows? Only found the method that returns number of columns, not the name
 
@bwoebi Actually, I bet it's this line in INIT_METHOD_CALL :)
 
@IMSoP yea, that doesn't exist, this it how it looks currently
 
The other one was for $var(), if I understand correctly.
 
@SaifEddinGmati it's a surprisingly rare feature, but I find it so much nicer for busy conversations than having to keep track of who's replying to whom
some concept of "split into new related thread" might be a reasonable alternative
other people probably have other "shopping lists" of what they'd want a forum to do, though
@DGF I'm not sure I follow; you've got the matched rows, so you can look at those to see what the match is
or, you could split the query up into the three separate cases
 
5:02 PM
@cmb ONOES, sorry :(
 
cmb
btw, are the in-tree builds necessary? phpize are way faster
np
 
i have absolutely no clue what i am doing there
 
@IMSoP i'm still exploring what extensions it has, it can have a wiki cloud.void.tn/p/1-request-for-comments
 
@cmb i am wondering are x86 builds still necessary?
 
@DGF incidentally, is "$this->_myDb->parent::executeQuery" really in your code? because that's really weird, and I'm surprised it's even valid PHP
 
cmb
5:03 PM
@beberlei not necessary, but PHP does still x86 builds for Windows
 
DGF
@IMSoP Yeah, I probably was overthinking. I think I can just do if (!empty ($row['username']) ... to see if it returned an username
 
cmb
also, how is tideways/xhprof different from pecl.php.net/package/xhprof?
@beberlei well, it builds a PHP binary; could just get that from windows.php.net/downloads instead
 
@cmb its a complete rewrite based on what we are doing in the closed source tideways extension, does a few things different.
 
cmb
ah, thank!
 
the xhprof one was also only recently revived, does that support windows? i am not sure
 
cmb
5:07 PM
@beberlei yes, it is supposed to; see ci.appveyor.com/project/longxinH/xhprof/builds/38495609
 
@beberlei :(
 
DGF
@IMSoP uhh, didn't try the code yet. But what I did is: the parent start the connection to the DB and stores it in a private property. I pass the property in a public method to the child like this: https://3v4l.org/RJVJH
Don't really know if it's correct
 
@PeeHaa stop the worring, i believe the is a build passing now :D
 
:P
 
5:08 PM
ha! \o/
 
cmb
@beberlei there is a strange error at the end regarding CRC checksums; I had that for my fork as well, but figured that might be due to being a fork: ci.appveyor.com/project/tideways/php-profiler-extension/builds/…
 
@DGF you generally only need "parent" when you've over-ridden the method, and need to refer specifically to the parent's version; in that code, you just want $this->_myDb = $this->getDb(); or $this->_myDb = self::getDb();
 
As always thanks both! <3
 
the most common case for needing "parent::" is to refer to the parent version of the current method, as you've done with parent::__construct();
because obviously $this->__construct() would just call itself forever :)
 
DGF
@IMSoP But getDb is a method that is in the parent. Or are you saying I can use $this->_myDb = $this->getDb(); or $this->_myDb = self::getDb() since the method was passed to the child?
 
5:16 PM
@DGF be careful not to use words in the wrong context: parameters are "passed"; members from a parent are "inherited"; and yes, once a method has been inherited, it can be referenced with $this just like any other method on that class
 
DGF
Hm, think I understood. Since I didn't over-write the method I can just use $this->_myDb. There is no need to actually use parent, only if child method was different than the parent method and I really wanted to use the parent one
 
precisely
 
DGF
@IMSoP Yeah, I know. It's just my english..
Okidoki, thanks :P
 
 
1 hour later…
6:36 PM
@DGF overwrite !== override. They sound similar, their meanings are almost similar, but they're distinct
 
@Tiffany Confusingly, there's no distinction in German, they both translate to "überschreiben".
 
similarity of meanings depends on context, in computer science, their meanings are pretty close
@IluTov override isn't that common, I most often see it used in context of tech, rarely anywhere else
@IluTov how do you translate countermand?
or overrule?
 
@Tiffany I didn't even know that word. It's translated to "Wiederrufen", so revoke.
 
countermand is used in a hierarchal structure, usually military, like "I order you to do such-and-such" and a response can be a countermand to do the opposite
... though I usually see it in TV shows with a military hierarchy
@IluTov amusingly, it seems like "nicht berücksichtigen" has the closest meaning to "override," assuming that "nicht berücksichtigen" means "do not take into account." In the context of OOP, "do not take into account the parent's method"
but it's such a less elegant way of saying it :(
 
cmb
7:21 PM
you can also translate "override" to "übersteuern"; that clashes with "overload", though
 
I'm going to bake a cake
 
7:33 PM
@cmb I'd tend to "umgehen" or "übergehen" for override, same as an override (noun) is more or less "Überbrückung"
in OOP it doesn't really matter tho, override/overwrite typically both mean the same (method override) and overload is something different (f.e. operator overloading) hence there is no need to translate override/overwrite differently in german
 
DGF
8:32 PM
They sound almost the same to me. To do something over something else, but well, not fluent in english
 
@DGF but you are fluent in English, you're able to converse ;)
a native understanding is different than fluency, but a native understanding is unnecessary for most things
github.com/php/doc-base/blob/… why are these single letter variables
 
DGF
Hm, yes.. But I make some grammar mistakes and some words may not be what I'm trying to express. I understand what people say tho, I'm a better reader I guess
 
@DGF you're still learning, and English speakers have this problem as well :P
that is, native speakers
in general, you're able to communicate your thoughts well enough to others, and that's what matters for fluency
 
DGF
Always thought that being fluent meant to know how to write/talk/read very well (talking definitly my worst, accent...). Guess I'm fluent then ahah
 
9:28 PM
@Tiffany I often question my own fluency in English :P
 
Hello is it possible to create an IMAP server with the whole purpose of notifying for a single message
 
WAT!?, but yeah probably
:)
 
How hard would it be
 
red
 
so very difficult then
I assume
 
9:33 PM
I didn't know the scale
 
Also don't know whether you understand imap
Or what you are trying to do
:)
 
See I've put myself in this hole where it's my only option to send a notification to my IOS device
From Windows
So I create this IMAP server and notify my gmail app that there is a new message so it shows a notification on the screen
you can add custom server in it - I'll add my local IMAP one
or maybe I just run a normal PHP IMAP server - which one would you suggest
 
Seems like a weird way to go about "showing a notification on a phone"
 
sounds like an XY problem...
 
 
1 hour later…
11:00 PM
Ohai @MikO o/ How much trouble do you have to go through to keep HS up? :P
 
:D
\o
@cmb this is mind boggling to me in that I don't think I can ever speak the language fluently and be able to differentiate overloading vs overriding knowingly :-P
 
It all boils down to annektieren in German anyway
If anything they need less words
 
:-P
 
like English?
though German is possibly probably worse
 
11:16 PM
well.. we do have Leichte Sprache, but most germans probably don't know it and it's actually harder to comply to the rules than our normal "just mix several words together" lingu
 

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