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12:14 AM
@NikiC Seems the simple solution was to add __attribute__((force_align_arg_pointer)) to the function that is the "main" of each fiber. From what I gathered, gcc is smart enough to auto add that to main(), but not other functions. Since zend_fiber_execute() is like "main" for the fiber, adding the attribute there fixes the issue.
So very simple solution and should fix any other code assuming 16-byte stack alignment.
 
 
2 hours later…
1:53 AM
@Sara test
 
2:04 AM
@DaveRandom Got to a point I feel comfortable with a MVP that lets you write TestCases, run the tests, and see where failures happen. github.com/labrador-kennel/async-unit/tree/0.1.0
Next up is Custom Assertions (tl;dr I want to support assert()->yourOwnAssertion() and assert()->not()->stringEquals()) and recognizing #[Test] from extended TestCases
 
jit segfault on php-fpm ・ JIT ・ #80968
 
3:10 AM
Am shocked at the number of people who votes "yes" for rfc/mixed_type_v2. As if it's not bad enough people not bothering to type hint or return type hint so I have no clue how to use their class, mixed is going to get littered everywhere by lazy devs :( meh
 
so? then it has absolutely no difference vs those same lazy devs not adding a type in the first place
 
^
 
there are differences. "please use type hints" ok will do [uses "mixed"] where before it would be explicit
also, if no type hint is bad, why introduce a new thing that is "just as bad"?
(if I sound ranty I'm not just debating a bit)
 
mixed v2?
 
Because for those who do use types, there's a difference between "I have explicitly marked this as mixed" and "no-one has got around to type hinting this function yet"
 
3:13 AM
@James Because there are some cases where mixed is a legit type?
Not everything can fit in a nice union of a couple of types, some functions do take anything as an argument
i.e. a serialization function
Also PHP doesn't have hints, but type declarations
 
I actually encountered a valid use of mixed in a project I'm working on. We need to check that something is valid based on arbitrary conditions and that something could be anything
 
"no-one has got around to type hinting this function yet" this argues against allowing mixed as people will just shove "mixed" in there and never get around to fixing it later
 
@MarkR I agree with this
@James Again, if they were never going to fix it later then nothing has effectively changed
 
@James this sounds like an internal philosophy problem, not a language problem
 
its a new thing that avoids them having to bother. "dude it has a type hint"
 
3:17 AM
@James Then block this during the code review
 
^
 
Part of the power of PHP, imo, is the ability to dip out of the stronger type hinting in the select places where it makes sense to do so. Block this in code review. Use a static analysis tool to block it.
 
hmm fair points
 
Like this is a non-issue, and you're arguing that the cases which do need mixed types shouldn't be able to have it because of "lazy" devs
 
Or go to a more strictly typed language
 
3:18 AM
our web app is built on PHP not gonna change that just so people have to type hint :D
 
Psalm will complain most of the time if mixed types are involved
 
Yup, so now you need to figure out how to communicate the power of type hints to your team and convince them that using better type hints is a good thing.
 
@Girgias fwiw type hints is just historic naming, there's about 20 RFCs referring to them.
 
@MarkR Yeah because prior to PHP 7 they were mostly just hints
And the amount of RFCs which use "hints" instead of "delcarations" is low, I checked this :-)
So I'm with @Danack here, don't perpetrate wrong terminology just because it's historic
 
well I still dont see much use case vs bad devs and promoting potential bad practice because it's officially there. for the few cases that need multiple types just use docblock. I guess we all think differently :)
 
3:26 AM
Every time you have to resort to docblock, the language has a hole in it
 
@James Mixed is nice because we don't have generics, and sometimes you want to make general purpose structures or control flow structures that can be used in a variety of ways. Case in point, the Fiber API.
Mixed is about being explicit vs. leaving you wondering if it's just undocumented, legacy code.
 
I've been trying to convert my main project to psalm level 5 and the amount of docblocks to make up for things is astonishing... tl;dr: I miss Typescript
 
I've only seriously used Psalm on PHP 8+ code, and it's not nearly as bad there.
 
@MarkR This is actually part of the reason that I haven't fully adopted psalm in more projects. I don't necessarily enjoy writing those type of docblock annotations either
 
mixed is only explicit in that a type declaration exists. It's not useful at all as I still don't know what I can pass in. what if "mixed" means int|string, or perhaps other combinations? It tells you nothing, I'd prefer docblock with @var int|string|whatever in the rare times
 
3:28 AM
Templated classes still cause headaches, e.g., Promise<Connection>.
 
@James No, it's not useful to you
 
@James If it's suppose to be int|string, then it should have been that and not mixed.
 
@Trowski Yea... I super wish we had generics for that. But, won't be nearly as big once fibers are in wide use
 
@James if it's int|string, then insist on a union type during code review
 
@Trowski Yeah.... I was really hoping that Phpstorm would have had full support after the song and dance about it, but when it came, it was a completely damp squib.
 
3:29 AM
@CharlesSprayberry We async folks will rejoice, but collections still suffer.
 
@Trowski Don't even get me started on collections
At this point just give me TypedObject[] until/if we get generics
 
Async iterators still have the same problem regular iterators do…
 
@CharlesSprayberry typed arrays?
 
@Tiffany yes
 
mixed = "array|bool|callable|int|float |object|resource|string|null" I passed in an array and it broke, oh yeah it doesn't take arrays... :P
 
3:31 AM
@CharlesSprayberry There have been a few times I've used string[] as a stopgap
 
That's fine in docblocks.
 
Aye
 
Yea, I do that in docblocks but it still makes my eye twitch to see a return type of array then the docblock specify what type it is
 
@James What are you on about? If it doesn't take an array, then it shouldn't have used mixed.
 
My want for typed arrays is just frustration at not having a reasonable way to do typed collections at this point. I don't know the actual ramifications of such a change internally
 
3:34 AM
Typed arrays are doable, but performance was a concern IIRC.
 
That and I'm not sure that I believe generics will ever actually happen
 
@Trowski ok so if using mixed, what real world example class can take any/all of those things? maybe I've just not come across such requirements.
 
Though I didn't expect a lot of the things in 7 and 8 so...
@James He gave you one in the fiber API
Here's another
And there's implementations of that interface that show why it needs to be the way it is
 
@James Leaning on what I'm familiar with, a promise resolution value for Deferred::resolve().
Generics would solve that, but without them there's no other way to type that.
 
@Trowski Another good example
Of the need for generics sad trumpet noises
 
mmm.. yea some kind of settings or configuration interface
 
Basically any generic container-like object is going to need to use mixed.
 
I was thinking about ways to maybe generate "type-safe" collection objects based on attributes
 
It's such a big hole in the language :( one we can't even solve by throwing money at it, short of hiring half the Hack team
 
#[TypedCollection(Foo::class)] class List implements Collection {} but this is just super out in left field and i haven't given it much thought
 
3:41 AM
That's just phpdoc in another form.
 
yea i know :(
it's just another bandaid
why it has mostly stayed in left field and i haven't given it much thought lol
 
4:18 AM
Evening folks
 
\o
I’ve not been here in a long time
 
How's it going?
 
Good! I’ve been off in Kotlin-land for a few years.
 
Nice. Professionally I'm doing a lot of Java... been wanting to try some more Kotlin out
 
4:21 AM
Currently drunk and done with Stardew binging
Yeah, I’m using it exclusively for backend dev, no Android here — and it’s been a ball
A lot of JVM; 25% Java, 75% Kotlin. I miss PHP, and .NET.
Do we have generics yet?
 
lolol
We were literally just lamenting the fact that we don't have generics yet
 
I read back ;-)
Yeah, so I haven’t missed much in ~4 years
 
7 and 8 were pretty big improvements
8 especially brought a lot of interesting stuff
 
I was still doing career dev with PHP when 7 released, but I haven’t touched 8 yet.
Attributes?
 
I like Attributes
named arguments is nice
 
4:25 AM
Sweet, wake me up when generics are a thing ;-) lol
 
I'm afraid you'd be sleeping for a long time probably ;)
 
/shrug
I like to hibernate, lol
But seriously, they’re such a dev-sanity factor — I’m honestly confused as to why it hasn’t been adopted yet
Besides the design-by-committee element
 
From what I understand there are/were significant technical challenges due to how PHP works
I don't understand the internals enough to know for certain. Just from what I've picked up reading RFCs and reading what people talk about in here
 
You can read about the issues here: github.com/PHPGenerics/php-generics-rfc/issues
 
Wowzers, alright I have some reading to do
 
4:30 AM
Inheritance and instanceof create a lot of edge cases and implementation questions.
The top two issues should cover most of your questions.
 
 
4 hours later…
8:15 AM
@Trowski That makes sense
 
9:02 AM
I was just reading your generics notes ...
I guess the new string with associated mapped pointer trick might be helpful here
it might make one or two things a little bit nicer ... but it doesn't solve the other 101 problems, I get lost when trying to figure out how it should actually work ...
 
9:19 AM
Also, morning o/
 
10:26 AM
not harmful but could be better ・ PHP options/info functions ・ #80969
 
10:38 AM
o/
 
> Of course, it is very simple to fetch single column values into an array with the current functionality:

Uses a syntax that looks like gibberish to me (https://wiki.php.net/rfc/mysqli_fetch_column)
Can anyone help explain what:
foreach ($result as ['username' => $usernames[]]);

is actually doing? It's completely foreign to me.
 
11:40 AM
Hi guys, @NikiC but your PHP-parser doesn't see the annotations?
 
@MarkR like stackoverflow.com/questions/10057671/… or something else?
 
Morning
 
12:01 PM
@JoeWatkins Tbh I'm at the same point with adding support for intersection types with unions (which is kinda needed if we have type aliases), so I decided to email a doctor in Comp Sci at my uni who's research is about intersection types and type systems... hopefully I get a reply
Cause I'm not smart enough to figure that out on my own I think
 
cmb
@MarkR that's an abbreviation for an explicit list() construct: 3v4l.org/S70ro
I would have used array_column() instead: 3v4l.org/hAamh
 
12:55 PM
@BruceOverflow You mean attributes?
It should see them...
@MarkR Something terrible
 
I have 2 projects right now that are working with PHP-Parser recognizing attributes. Haven't ran into any issues so far
 
1:15 PM
Is there a shortcut to find the nearest not greater than index in PHP array?
I mean other than walk through an array
ok, nvm, sorry
I realised I cannot do what intended without walking through an array of objects
 
1:36 PM
I mean @blabla in 7.4
I remember, yes
 
@BruceOverflow ah yes, php-parser doesn't do anything with those
You can fetch the comment with getDocComment(), but then need to process it yourself
 
Default protocol_version in http resource context changed to HTTP 1.1 in PHP 8 ・ HTTP related ・ #80970
 
1:56 PM
@cmb Complication for more filters: bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=80970
 
@IMSoP Thanks again @IMSoP for the is_literal RFC update yesterday, I've made some tweaks (removing the implode/array_fill, adding the usage examples, the link to Joe's implementation, etc)... if you have any suggestions, I'd really appreciate them, as I know I'm not the best at selling the idea.
 
2:13 PM
Woah, Ben's pulled out in front in the election.
 
@Sara eh
?
 
@ln-s The 8.1 release manager election
 
Ah
@Sara Speaking about PHP, we are going to host some talks about web development and I'd like PHP to be represented properly, these are 40 minute talks (in english, time also includes questions from the audience, can be extended if the speaker chooses to). Would really like you to be there
 
@Sara oh totally forgot that's going on
 
Also goes to you @NikiC Joe pointed out you are a very good speaker
 
2:18 PM
@SaifEddinGmati You get the "is present in room 11" vote
 
:O I randomly at some point within the last 4 hours lost all my MySQL data locally in all tables except for two
 
@scorgn O_o
@scorgn Hmm... this would not be anything to do with Magento would it? Because I am familiar with an issue with something like this and Magento.
 
@StatikStasis Hmm, I have Magento installed but it is connected to a different MySQL service (different version)
I put them both on different ports
 
@NikiC You've got a week yet.
That said, it's going to take a major shakeup to change the results at this point.
Patrick and Ben are in sight of the finish line and everyone else is starting around picking their noses. Not even at the start line... They're in the locker room lacing up their trainers. One might even be asleep at home.
 
The only thing I can think is that MySQL 5.6 might've been started using the same data directory and it corrupted the data or something
 
cmb
2:31 PM
@NikiC sigh
 
@scorgn The issue that we had that occurred twice was a known issue where if you use the bulk action to delete an item and you either refreshed or tried to use it again quickly after, it would run the query the first time successfully, but the second time it would not have something in the query and would then execute deleting every row line by line in the table until they were all gone. Not sure if you have something similar occurring.
I don't know if they ever resolved it or not. They should have...
We had to restore the DB to a previous state.
Sort out the sales that occurred and manually handle those. It was a headache.
@scorgn This was my post about it when it occurred to us. chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/11?m=43064661#43064661
Looks like it was fixed in 2.4 so depending on your version, maybe unrelated.
 
Which version did we stop warning if date.timezone wasn't set?
 
2:49 PM
@StatikStasis Oh wow, that sounds like a pretty tragic bug
I don't think that was the case with me, it was the database for a Laravel application
 
cmb
@LeviMorrison PHP 7.0.0
 
Also we use Magento 1 still 😭
 
oof
Sending holly water your way @scorgn
 
@ln-s They tricked me. Got hired to work on building a microservice architecture with Symfony/Laravel for our migration to Magento 2, but a couple months later they stopped that project and told me I'd be working on Magento 1 "just for now"
 
Yeah
just for now will be for the following 5 years making your life absolutely miserable
I know that drill
 
2:55 PM
But there are a couple microservices we are still using and they always give me the tickets that have to do with them so it's not bad
@ln-s Yup. Luckily I was hired on a 1 year W-2 contract which ends in a little bit but I am already talking to recruiters. They want to renew the contract afterwards (or directly hire me as an employee) but there's no way haha
 
Run away
 
@NikiC @cmb I notice stream_select does already have some emulation for the read case, it just happens too late to avoid the cast error: heap.space/xref/php-src/ext/standard/…
 
I found out what happened after asking enough people. Basically there was a data breach with their M1 system where they got tons of credit card information and now the board is worried that if they just move to M2 with microservices then we might just build it out with all the same security vulnerabilities. It's completely valid concern because in the new microservices I've seen things as bad as using eval on a database column
 
there's a comment saying "allow readable non-descriptor based streams to participate in stream_select", but that only gets called after the streams have been cast to FD
it probably doesn't do enough to solve this scenario, though
 
Lol that data breach vulnerability is almost 4 years old
Embarrasing
 
3:05 PM
Yikes, that sounds about right
We're not a small company either I have no idea how they don't put more money into their ecommerce stores
 
yeah, I'm just trying to figure out if there's any workaround
 
@NikiC Thanks :p
 
seems like the fundamental issue is needing to stash the filter state somewhere while the handle is passed off to the OS select() call
of course, we could just shrug and document that using 'http' streams that way is not recommended, and to use a raw 'tcp' or 'tls' stream instead
it feels pretty edge-case-y to want high-level HTTP handling on one hand, and low-level FD access on the other
but maybe that's just because I've never had the use case
 
posted on April 17, 2021

Yeah yeah. It's a predictable ending. The thing is, this happened almost word for word. I was talking to my action figure on a perfectly clear day, and the power just up and went out. Five freaking minutes before my interview!!! The outage lasted a half an hour and was followed by another hour of Tsunami sirens blaring and echoing throughout the hills. Nothing... [read more]

 
cmb
3:21 PM
@IMSoP I agree. They likely could use curl_multi_*() for that purpose.
 
@scorgn WOT?!?
 
@StatikStasis I had that same reaction when they told me I'd be working on it haha
 
Whoopsie. I just broke php.net
 
Can confirm
 
Fix is merged and site is rebuilding. I suck.
Thing is. It was working locally because I did fix the errant brace, but I forgot to roll it into the commit before pushing.
I'll bet git has a "bitch at me if I push with uncomitted changes" flag somewhere.
 
3:32 PM
"Hey hon, how was your day today?" "Fine, I broke the main site of php, but other than that, it was a nice day."
it's back on :-)
 
It's not the first time.
 
it happens :-)
 
It does indeed.
 
cmb
4:03 PM
@IMSoP do we in this case? I wonder whether filters do matter for PHP_STREAM_AS_FD_FOR_SELECT at all.
 
@cmb I know around 5.6 there were quite a lot of places around filters and that mode which were explicitly "undefined behaviour" - but I cannot see any way in which it would make sense
I have a feeling it will be a mix of some filter drivers override the setoption trap for flag and throwing up, and others which will just forward it on to the wrapped stream with unpredictable results
 
@JoeWatkins Did you get the donation ?
 
cmb
4:23 PM
@DaveRandom it seems to me the stream isn't modified with PHP_STREAM_AS_FD_FOR_SELECT at all; that merely returns the socket, and calls select(2) on it.
 
@NikiC "Core, standard, spl: The distinction between these three extensions is somewhat murky from an end-user perspective, and largely historical." Is there a good reason to keep these separate? It's currently somewhat unclear where new classes would be added. Would there ever be new classes to spl if we discourage spl specific prefixes?
Sorry for being a bit late to the party.
 
@cmb from a fairly quick reading of the implementation, the original streams are discarded, and recreated from the result of the system select() call
so the filters would just disappear
 
cmb
BTW, github.com/php/php-src/blob/master/ext/pgsql/… looks wrong; should return SUCCESS if ret == NULL && fd_numer != -1
 
@cmb tbh the main place I suspect there will be weirdness is openssl as it has it's own buffer layer, though also you are right I actually can't imagine a state change that should affect anything
 
cmb
I did quick tests with gist.github.com/cmb69/c0b2514b4d5ca6de867b1d3953725d84, and dechunking works.
 
4:28 PM
@IluTov I'd go for standard unless it fits somewhere else particularly well
I mean, in practice nearly all recent class additions were actually in Core
 
hm, maybe I'm wrong and it does already match them back to the original stream zvals
 
It ultimately doesn't really matter much from an end-user perspective, as all three extensions are required
 
@cmb that's promising; maybe if there are some things that filters could mess with, filters could declare themselves safe for that cast somehow?
 
I don't see any reason to have both standard and core. Has standard ever been disable-able?
 
from my recent dive into the history of getdir(), I think ext/standard was just the answer to "where do we put these things that aren't in any extension?" when PHP 4 introduced the ext/ structure
 
4:33 PM
@NikiC Regarding showing if an exception trace was from within a fiber, I could add a property to the exception that switches printing {main} to {fiber}, how do you feel about that?
 
@NikiC Yeah, it doesn't matter for end users. I was wondering if it wouldn't make sense to merge them to avoid confusion or discussions on which to add them to.
 
whereas I guess "core" is the answer to "what do we call these things which can't be in an extension, because they're too tangled up with the engine?"
 
"Unless and until existing array_*() functions are aliased under an Array* namespace, new additions should continue to be of the form array_*() to maintain horizontal consistency." This has two downsides (that I can think of) 1. We won't achieve consistency in the long term as new additions will continue to be inconsistent 2. Namespaces (e.g. `Arr\`) would stick out from the old API which makes it more clear that it's new and probably has saner behavior.
 
@ln-s not yet, I guess it will show tomorrow, banks stopped processing a couple of hours ago
 
I don't see why anyone wants to put arrays in their own namespace.
 
4:39 PM
@Trowski hm ... seems ugly
 
@LeviMorrison Isn't that exactly what the RFC is proposing? " For example, str_contains() could become Str\contains(), fopen() could become File\open(), and password_hash() could become Password\hash(). (These are non-normative examples, the RFC does not propose using these specific namespaces.) "
 
No, it is not proposing that.
 
I think ideally it would really contain the trace where the fiber was called from as well
 
> These are non-normative examples, the RFC does not propose using these specific namespaces.
 
@IluTov the flipside of 2 is the implication that functions not in a namespace are not sane, which doesn't follow; you'd have people asking "where's the new version for array_push", just because it's not called "array\push", rather than because they actually have a problem with the API
 
4:41 PM
off-topic: when ffi was being discussed, i remember someone mentioning the possibility to create PHP extensions using PHP/FFI+preloading instead of C.

is this something that might make it into php-src? would php-src contain extensions written in PHP in the future?

this is something that HHVM is doing currently, where "builtin" code that is written in Hack, making it much easier for people to contribute ( e.g: https://github.com/facebook/hhvm/blob/master/hphp/runtime/ext/async_mysql/ext_async_mysql_exceptions.php#L41 ).
 
@LeviMorrison Keyword being specific. The RFC does propose splitting functions into components. Anyway, my comment isn't based on `Arr\`, I just copied it from the RFC.
 
@NikiC Yeah, I wasn't thrilled with the idea of modifying Exception. I always got segfaults when I attempted to attach the previous execute data to the fiber execute data.
 
Think of core and standard as a very messy room. Is it any easier to find what you need if you put the mess into a million little boxes? No, you just hid the mess in many little boxes, making it worse in some respects...
 
@SaifEddinGmati it's come up a few times; the hesitation has always been the performance cost of the PHP side; so JIT is probalbly more relevant than FFI
 
@cmb The opendir test fails on master (on windows)
 
4:43 PM
Sure it needs subdivided, but putting things into type-specific namespaces doesn't seem like the way to go. A files-system API makes sense, there will be multiple types and functions in there.
 
@IMSoP That's true. Although tons of functions in the standard library are inconsistent in some way (naming, parameters, or just weird behavior) and this would provide a nice way to fix them (without appending _real :P)
 
@IluTov yeah, that's just a really bad idea: take some functions that have confusing parameter orders, and make new functions with similar names, and different parameter orders
 
cmb
@NikiC should have already pushed the fix (just slight changes to error messages)
 
@IMSoP Well, keep things consistently inconsistent and you'll never achieve consistency.
 
@IMSoP i guess that's right, especially since some functions could be implemented in PHP without the need for FFI ( e.g: array_keys, array_values .. etc)
 
4:46 PM
Some sort of system package probably makes sense, where things related to getting environment variables, information on the hardware like how many processors there are, exit if it was a function, and so on.
 
@IluTov I don't disagree; but adding more inconsistency doesn't help
unless you have half of the functions in the standard library throwing deprecation notices
 
cmb
@SaifEddinGmati well, would be bad for Windows, since preloading isn't supported there. OTOH, Windows support may go south anyway. :(
 
@cmb Maybe you conflicted? ^^
 
so that you can just throw them all away and start again
 
cmb
nope, just didn't push (only committed)
 
4:49 PM
@IMSoP if i find a way to do it, i would raise an RFC to push github.com/azjezz/psl into php-src, replacing str_* array_* and the rest :p
 
@IluTov parameter order is one of the reasons so many people are interested in "scalar methods" - we could even have both "$string->positionOf($otherString)" and "$string->positionIn($otherString)"
whereas "string\position" is no better than "strpos_new"
 
Scalar methods > moar functions.
Or closed functions that are intended to be used with pipe. :-)
$arr |> arr_contains('a');
 
@IMSoP Yeah, haven't made progress there...
Too many things to work on. Too little time.
 
The story of open source.
 
Hey look, a namespace RFC that will pass :o also hi
 
4:54 PM
:shrug emoji:
 
@MarkR A bit premature, but I like these odds :)
 
@JoeWatkins When do you think it would be reasonable to post partials to the list? IIRC it's just some reflection bits that are still broken?
 
I'm abstaining. I like the compromise for extensions, I think the suggestions for what to do with standard are going to end up a huge mess. We'll end up 20 years later with 150 PHP-src namespaces in the root.
 
IIRC, it's not suggesting that we do anything with standard. The only thing it does is mark it exempt from the rest of the rules, which is mostly that ext/$thing means they can use namespace $thing (case insensitively).
We don't want people to make Core\thing and Standard\thing and Spl\thing until it's been sorted out.
 
cmb
do we need to be concerned regarding the CodeCov hack?
 
5:03 PM
Actually, "exempt" is not the best word. It's specifically do not do this.
 
Are we going to end up with \Password, \Buffering, \Encoding, \IpConversion, \Env, \Timers, \INI, \DNS, \Conversion, \Streams, \Files, \CSV, \Disk, \Sapi, \Math, \Random, \Streams, \Types, \Filters, \Serialization abnd that's just from reading basic_functions stub :-)
eh screw it, perfect is the enemy of the good.
 
The RFC basically says "don't make Core and Standard namespaces just because this RFC passed".
 
Right, but my read is it says, make every part of it it's own namespace
 
> These are non-normative examples, the RFC does not propose using these specific namespaces.
 
> Instead, these extensions should be considered as a collection of different components, and should be namespaced according to these.
 
5:14 PM
Yes, of course. That doesn't say how fine grained it is.
 
So... the job of another RFC? Because I'd jump up and down and celebrate at the ext bit.
 
@JoeWatkins Crazy, How is it possible it takes that long
 
@MarkR Yes. This RFC is aimed at everything else, so ext/gd is free to use GD\* (or whatever casing preference they have), and ext/tidy can use Tidy\*, and so on.
 
and I'm 100% behind that. It's the core, standard, spl section which causes me a degree of concern. I'd say a good 90% of the arguments have been around standard / spl functions, and the RFC has one prescriptive line which is "Instead, these extensions should be considered as a collection of different components, and should be namespaced according to these".

So I'd want to know how we're going to decide on those components.
 
I think everyone wants to know that too, but the past has shown that it's difficult to get anyone to agree on it :/
This RFC is aimed at moving the needle forward in less controversial cases.
 
5:29 PM
Are you planning on bringing an RFC immediately after it passes to introduce Iterators\ etc?
 
@ln-s ohai curly you :P
 
o/
That's not me playing guitar, it's a friend
 
oh vinyle nvm
 
@LeviMorrison I'm rather surprised at that.
 
5:33 PM
He was at home yeah, I was 2 meters away, all cool
 
oh s'all good :P
 
@MarkR Well, at minimum it would be targeted at iterable, not just iterators :) But no, I don't feel like fighting internals.
 
So as far as moving forward on resolutions the specific arguments we've actually been having..
 
.
I must say @ln-s, you give a pretty good excuse for not working
 
??
That was yesterday :D
I am working now, unless you are talking about you ;D
 
5:49 PM
wait wat. aren't you curly guy playing with butterfly knives?
 
Wha
no
 
lmao
I interacted with some random ass teen somewhere
I can't breathe
 
ok, take 2: let me listen to that
 
I think the sound quality was alright
Marshall Code100H USB output + Samson Cu101 condenser to give it "more air" /realism
 
5:56 PM
this is awesome. it's deadeye into my aesthetics need right now!
 
Thanks man
 
6:19 PM
this manual page is weird: php.net/manual/en/transports.inet.php
just a big old list with no explanation
also horribly out of date: there is actually a "tlsv1.3://" transport, but I guess I'll stick with "sslv2://" :P
 
6:41 PM
@NikiC I know quite a few people who think the name "vector" for C++'s std::vector, Rust's Vec, and so on is badly named because of mathematical reasons. You have some math background, I believe? Given that "array" is taken already, can you think of any better name? dynarray? Dunno.
Would complement "SplFixedArray", I guess.
 
@LeviMorrison I think vector is fine
 
@LeviMorrison List?
 
@kelunik That name also is taken :)
 
@LeviMorrison ArrayList :P
 
@NikiC Would you go with vec a la Rust and Hacklang, or vector a la .... well, mostly everyone else.
 
6:52 PM
@LeviMorrison Are the reasons because it's not just an array of numbers?
 
@Girgias No.
 
What is the reason then? As I don't see what else would make it badly named for maths reasons
 
vec/dict/keyset > *
^ these 3 cover all use cases for PHP arrays.
 
I've seen people claim Bjarne Stroustrup said something like:
> One could argue that valarray should have been called vector because it is a traditional mathematical vector and that vector should have been called array.
Which does match somewhat with the "it's not just numbers" sentiment, but other people throw out things like fixed-size and other stuff.
Apparently Swift vectors are for numbers and such, and Swift arrays are for generic contiguous memory access.
They're like the only language that "got it right" so to speak, ha.
@SaifEddinGmati Is keyset is a set of things that are permitted as array keys?
 
yes
so having a vec and a keyset of the same size, you can create a dict :)
 
7:06 PM
Yeah, those 3 cover so many use cases (in all languages, not just in PHP).
 
Okay so I looked some stuff up, and the complaint is that you might not get a vector space
 
that's what hack has right now, and tuples/shapes
 
Which, fair enough, but it's the next best thing we have as array would have been the correct term
Or list... but that's also taken somewhat
 
I'd love it if the engine provided functionality to extensions to be able to create types like arrays. Meaning, reference counted, copy-on-write, subscript overloadable including initialization, and so on.
You can do some of those.
Then extension authors can make vec, dict, keyset, and so on themselves:
$v = vec[1, 3, 5];
$v = vec[1, 3, "foo" => 5]; // error, somehow
Although, if it can't be made more efficient than new vec([1, 3, 5]); then there's no point, but I would hope it can.
 
7:17 PM
@Crell I need a bit more time to work on the impl
hopefully this week, so carry on with an prep stuff you had planned ...
@ln-s my bank is very slow with international transfers
everyone says 3-5 days, but does it in 24-48 hours, except my bank ... they've never actually taken 5 days before, but never less than three ...
of course, you can offer your first born as sacrifice and they'll do it quicker ... but I quite like my first born ...
 
7:36 PM
@JoeWatkins International transfers can be really slow.
 
Cool. I think the only things I still wanted to do (other than more tests as needed) is add some "related RFCs" to the RFC to link up with pipes and short functions and other complementary things. Other than that, I think it's just a matter of the code being good enough to kick off the conversation.

I'll probably also add a section on what sigil to use, at least to get ahead of what is almost certainly going to be what most people discuss. :-)
 
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