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12:02 AM
@FélixGagnon-Grenier that correlates with my taste in music. But probably s/metal/art/
 
nice
at first I wanted to use the word "punk"
thinking firmly about kap bambino
 
wow
It does titillate some kind of deeply buried memory of a similarly shocking moment after interacting with a link you posted
 
12:17 AM
I do try to troll my best.
 
as you should, I mean
 
12:38 AM
What builds the x_arginfo.h files from x.stub.php files?
 
it's included in the distribution so that it's available for extensions also.
 
Neat, thanks.
Might as well do that step now if I can do it in the extension too.
 
 
5 hours later…
5:18 AM
morning room.
 
@CraigFrancis I think I'll redo the patch ... I think we need a specific opcode to avoid perf, and avoid strangeness in implementation
well, rather, ping me and let me know if you want to do it ... for some hints, we're looking at zend_compile_binary_op, and intending to add a new handler specifically for our op1&op2 IS_CONST and IS_STRING concat ... see if you can figure it out maybe ...
 
5:58 AM
meanwhile ...
krakjoe@Fiji:/opt/src/php-src$ cat partial.php
<?php
function reflector(Partial $partial) {
    $reflector = new ReflectionPartial($partial);

    print("------------------------------\n");
    var_dump(
        $reflector, $reflector->getParameters());
    print("------------------------------\n\n");
}

$add = function($a, $b, $c) : int {
    var_dump(func_get_args());

    return $a + $b + $c;
};

$partial = $add(?, 10, ?);

/* this reflects properly */
reflector($partial);

$nested = $partial(1, ?);
 
 
2 hours later…
7:54 AM
@kelunik Allows merging changes to a file if the author of that file approves?
Is that for after the RFC has been accepted?
 
8:25 AM
@NikiC Yes, if an author approves, authors are listed in the RFC meta data, not based on commits.
@NikiC I wanted to avoid that, so PRs to RFCs are easier and draft RFCs are available on Github Pages. We also want a history of failed RFCs I guess, so still merge them.
 
morning guys
 
morning!
 
This just happened and I'm posting it because it brings me great joy. stackoverflow.com/a/67104513/909973
 
Error: Call to undefined function mb_ord() ・ Unknown/Other Function ・ #80954
 
 
1 hour later…
10:07 AM
yes
 
10:25 AM
@JoeWatkins Thanks @JoeWatkins, I've sent you and @Danack an email about how we could do this (in short, yeah, I don't think I should be writing C, or getting into the whole opcode/php-compiling process; so any help you can give would be really appreciated).
 
11:10 AM
@NikiC What's missing is some group of users to approve new RFCs, currently every new RFC is automatically merged.
 
Morning everyone :D
 
@kelunik Not sure I understand the process you have in mind here
What I originally intended and what rust does is that you submit a pull request, and that's where discussion happens (including on the diff)
How would the discussion work if you don't have a pull request to comment on?
Or is the intention here that we just use github to host the RFCs, but discussion happens exactly as before, on the mailing list only?
 
@NikiC Maybe create an RFC repo, discussion happens there just like if it would be code
if it passes it gets merged
 
That makes sense
It's also nice or rather useful to have the thumbs up / down emoji so you know what people think about it
 
11:28 AM
@NikiC Really unsure as to what to do about these crazy big numbers.
 
11:42 AM
since people keep linking back to that experimental github-based RFC, I'd like to highlight the findings from the experiment, which I think Nikita summarised quite well: externals.io/message/106844#106900
there are definitely things that were better than a mailing list discussion, but others that were worse
 
@NikiC That was my intention, yes, only replacing the wiki for now, not the mailing list.
 
sounds interesting, but I have the niggling feeling that you're re-inventing something that wiki software already does better
admittedly, most wiki software doesn't have the ability to propose changes
 
@IMSoP Wiki software doesn't have PRs for suggestions.
 
I bet some has an equivalent, but yes, it's not part of the core feature set
 
Migrating just because we don't want to maintain it is a non-reason for me, because updates are usually pretty smooth.
It's a nice bonus, but not a reason on its own.
 
11:50 AM
MediaWiki has at least one "suggested edits" implementation, for instance
 
what about using GitHub discussions rather than pull requests ( something like github.com/facebook/hhvm/discussions/8777 )
 
@kelunik maintaining the software is one thing, that can be mostly automated, as we already do ...
managing the server is quite another thing, are you going to assume responsibility for that ?
and how can you assume responsibility for it when infra is such a mess - we still don't actually know what happened ...
 
The point of having a PR is to follow the same process as in merging code, but in this case, it's merging "logic" of the project which can also be tracked through a simple git log
 
@JoeWatkins That's also automated. ;-)
 
dude, I've seen mention of servers running php5
 
11:57 AM
@JoeWatkins that can be solved too - an up to date base OS with unattended upgrades enabled, or a hosting company willing to look after the OS
 
it certainly is not automated across the network of machines
 
and we're never going to get to zero custom code, so that custom code needs to run somewhere
 
Oh, sure, distro upgrades are of course not automated, only the normal updates.
 
well, it being normal for servers to go unmaintained for 5 years at a time is a big part of the problem ...
 
Definitely. The issue here is mostly no clear responsibility.
 
12:00 PM
yes, but seriously, how can we ask people, yourself included to take responsibility for something that we are not able to secure ... all the work going on is great, but it's all going on because we don't actually know what happened, so we're covering all bases, or trying too ...
 
I think it's a "both, and" scenario: use managed services where it makes sense, by all means figure out a way to retire the custom bug tracker, etc; but also figure out a way to safely run some servers for custom code
and if DokuWiki itself isn't actually a problem, and we find a way to safely host it (because we have a way to run some PHP servers), then replacing the wiki becomes a low priority item
 
well it fits our purposes quite well, although not perfectly, nor does github fit perfectly for a lot of things - whether it's pr/repo/org/whatever based ...
and in theory it updates, and in theory everything is good ... but in practice, there's been work to fix ridiculous bugs in the last week, they've been there for years and years ...
nobody would go about their day job the way they go about maintaining php stuff ... we don't really have the people power to audit all of the code we use ... so if we can delete a bug chunk of code, and a server, and close a window/reduce attack surface considerably, then it seems worth it, to me ...
 
right, but in terms of the wiki, you're talking a couple of plugins
most of the code is already third-party maintained
 
okay, but those plugins have existed for years in a shitty state
 
but if we replace them with a bunch of custom github hooks, who's going to maintain those?
 
12:07 PM
so ... it doesn't seem to matter how little code it is, nobody is doing it ...
how many people are able to maintain a github hook and how many people are able to maintain a docuwiki plugin ?
 
I imagine I could do either with half an hour reading some documentation
 
The argument about storing code in github has already been accepted, why diverge on issue tracking or other topics it makes no sense
 
there's no button on the internet that solves all our problems, some people are going to have to do some work ... but we want to reduce it to an absolute mimimum, and not ask anyone to do anything we're failing hard at ... like infra ...
 
yes, I agree
 
@IMSoP okay, how many people are writing github hooks right now, in this moment ?
 
12:08 PM
it has been clearly stated that "we suck at security" plus other points, same points should be used as for other topics
 
I just feel like there's a lot of "solution-first" thinking going on right now
like "we could move to github, let's find some problems that would solve"
 
if we just had a managed server, or a few, and properly managed ... then running our own wiki on it would be fine ...
 
rather than "we have this problem, what is a good solution?"
@JoeWatkins precisely what I keep saying
 
I could reach out to a couple of places and get us space this afternoon ... but I'm not allowed
 
I can manage it if you want, that takes almost little to no time for me, but again, think again about what it was previously stated for storing code in github
 
12:10 PM
find someone like Dreamhost, who can manage a LAMP server in their sleep, and ask them nicely if they'll host a couple for us
 
there are people in this chat that I'm sure would do it, but politics ... we can't very well ask anyone to do anything like that without giving them some recognition ...
 
who pays for the current servers? are they just donated by the host, but unmanaged?
 
but nobody will enjoy the shitstorm that happens when we try to add that sort of link to php.net
@IMSoP donations, unmanaged, various
the servers themselves are donated, nobody actually donates money ...
a lot of the "users that have access" might be outdated, but in general the provider should be correct
donating an old machine at the back of a rack somewhere is one thing, asking them to put man hours in is quite different ... and I don't think it would be fair unless we reciprocated or at least recognized their contribution ... but then people will say "what about the people that have been providing servers for 20 years?" ....
it's never as simple as finding the solution to a problem ... everything in php starts with changing minds, and most of those minds have thought the same way for the last decade or two ...
 
Has anyone port scanned each one of the host names in that list ?
as part of the security investigation ?
 
and also, what about those people, it's clearly obvious that they deserve similar recognition, but are we going to turn php.net into a myspace page full of ads and links ... I don't know how to solve that problem ...
@ln-s don't know, don't know if that would be valuable either ...
 
12:21 PM
Would it not ? Last time I checked one server had rpcbind as open, I tried to ask if it was intentional
had no answers
 
I don't know ... that's kinda the problem we're talking about ... probably nobody knew how to access the machine you were looking at ...
 
Basically credentials among the team
dp1.php.net port 631
what is that
 
I mean, I hate to sound broken, but I don't know ...
 
Plus I really hope that if ssh is ran in most servers on port 22, at least fail2ban is configured or some other login attempt blocking software to avoid brute forcing
 
I know that ppc testing isn't part of the workflow anymore
 
12:25 PM
Yes I know that you don't know, but who knows
щ(゚Д゚щ)
(งツ)ว ...
 
maybe an rfc is needed ... when we started using travis, there was an rfc that formalized our agreement to use CI and care about the results, and charged rm's with keeping it green ...
if we can agree formally that we should try to use managed services, and try to move away from custom software, and how we might reciprocate ... that gives people the confidence to actually act ..
4
 
Either managed or not, you'd still need to define someone who grants access to things
 
we have a procedure for getting access to the machines we have ... it would mostly be to see if there is actually consensus that we should move away from unmanaged/custom infra ...
 
And that's why I said that the decision to store code in github sets a precedent
 
References to elements in an array has side-affects to original array ・ Scripting Engine problem ・ #80955
 
12:59 PM
@GabrielCaruso did you forget to update github.com/php/web-qa/commits/master ?
 
1:21 PM
@SaifEddinGmati if you have the energy, exposing the karma system as an oauth (or similar) api, so that people can be authenticated on non-PHP maintained systems is something that could be awesome....and help us move away from maintaining stuff other than that api.
 
i would like to give it a try, can you point me to which repo contains the code responsible for karma currently? ( so i can get familiar with it ) - no promises :p
 
Sep 19 '19 at 9:43, by Danack
2 days ago, by salathe
@ircmaxell http://svn.php.net/repository/SVNROOT/global_avail
I haven't had the energy since then, due to chronic pain. But possibly I have been thinking about distributed systems a bit.......and might have been working on one aspect of that conversation....which I'll tell people about when I'm able to have a reasonable chance of being able to actually communicate for multiple days in a row without having pain get in the way.
 
If I have a package which sets an adapter like pattern, and then I proceed to create other libraries which are the proper adapters, which is the correct way to handle this dependency scheme in composer.json
?
 
top-tip: wear your seltbelts in cars! Also, try to avoid having chronic pain issues during a pandemic....kind of makes it hard to get it treated...
 
suggests: [list of adapters in main package]
and require-dev: main adapter on the adapter packages ?
 
1:29 PM
Not dev
I assume the adapter is an interface?
 
@JoeWatkins it's worth having a conversation. If nothing else, deliberately setting stuff up in a way that avoids having every single thing have to go through PHP core 'group' would be worth doing.
 
Yes the main package provides interfaces and a collection (in which you can inject all adapters you want)
@PeeHaa
 
In that case the concrete implementations have a dependency on the interfaces
 
@Danack so moving it to an external API?

e.g: GET /access/{directory} returns {"users": ["foo", "bar"]} ?

i think this would be pretty easy, and makes it easier to integrate with other systems
 
*And not just in dev
 
1:32 PM
alright so the concrete implementation needs the main package
and then the main package says, hey, I suggest you install these other cool guys which are an implementation of myself
 
Probably yeah
 
Wouldn't the last statement cause circular references ?
I guess TIAS
 
It does (in some way), but it is fine. Composer resolves it to a working set of dependencies (or throws a conflict if it is not possible)
 
alright good
 
@SaifEddinGmati Not just an api - an oauth (or oauth like) system, so that people on one site can be authenticated as having particular PHP karma.
....
e.g. for the voting, that could be on any platform, if it was possible to authenticate people through an oauth-like flow.
 
1:37 PM
hm, okay, will see in the weekend.

but would it be okay to use a framework for this? or just plain php with some libraries? i know some people don't like using frameworks for internal PHP stuff
 
What you're suggesting means that accounts and such would stay on internally managed services, correct?
 
@MarkR probably. And that makes sense, as managing who has access to what, is probably the most valuable bit of the PHP org.
 
It's also the crown jewels, and the bit that (so far as I've read) got leaked. There's a fair argument to be made that it should be one of the highest priorities to remove from php infra
 
For free hosting osuosl.org you can send them a machine they provide you with electricity and bandwidth, for free. The enlightenment desktop project is hosted there.
 
@SaifEddinGmati any answer I give you is going to lead to some people saying it's the wrong choice.
 
1:41 PM
Irrelevant to the ongoing conversation, just wanted to type it before I forgot
 
@MarkR whether it runs on PHP infrastructure or not, being able to auth people on other sites, means that people can make stuff on other sites, that doesn't need to be managed by PHP core.
 
@Danack well, using a framework, i can get it done this weekend ( i already have an starting-kit app with authentication stuff in it ), otherwise it would take maybe two weeks, so it really depends lol
 
@Danack The problem is though that you end up with an o-auth of an o-auth, which is doable in a push, but it might make more sense to allow a direct login via another service e.g. github with it's SSO, which has strong protection.
 
Is auth0 useful for this?
 
Would likely be
 
1:49 PM
$ pecl channel-update pecl.php.net
Updating channel "pecl.php.net"
Channel "pecl.php.net" is up to date
$ pecl info xdebug
No information found for `xdebug'
Anyone messing around with pecl infra?
Only some packages seem to work.
 
@LeviMorrison It seems to be working again
$ pecl info mongodb
About pecl.php.net/mongodb-1.9.1
================================
Release Type          PECL-style PHP extension (source code)
Name                  mongodb
Channel               pecl.php.net
Summary               MongoDB driver for PHP
Description           The purpose of this driver is to provide
....
 
Still not working for me :/
Maybe info is only for locally installed packages or something?
 
Yeah, it looks like it only works for certain packages for me. At first mongodb wasn't working about after a few minutes it started working again. Something seems to be up with PECL infra.
 
2:08 PM
Forward PHP streams as extra_fds to curl_multi_wait in curl_multi_select ・ cURL related ・ #80956
 
Hi - I am having a problem with URL parameters and have seen a recent question on StackOverflow that is having a similar problem. I've added a bounty to the question - it's probably relatively straigthtforward, but being new to PHP it's hard to work out the fix. If anyone can help:

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/67067621/divert-a-page-to-a-new-url-if-incorrect-url-parameter-is-manually-added-php
 
2:29 PM
@TheChewy I've posted a reply to your question
 
2:41 PM
@Flávio `hi @Flávio - I think i might post a simplified version of Anna's question on S/O. What needs to happen is some type of if/else statement to see if the id in the table matches the id in the url parameter and if it doesn't, then do a redirect. But I can't work out how to do that.
 
@TheChewy That is super straightforward to do, I'm glad to help you with that
 
3:28 PM
FILTER_VALIDATE_EMAIL and FILTER_SANITIZE_EMAIL are not unicode safe ・ *Unicode Issues ・ #80957
 
 
4:58 PM
@Crell
krakjoe@Fiji:/opt/src/php-src$ sapi/cli/php Zend/tests/partial_function/named-args.phpt
--TEST--
Named arguments.
--FILE--
135
135
135
135
135
--EXPECTF--
135
135
135
135
135
 
w00t?
 
almost w00t, off by one error in variadics which is not jumping off the page ...
 
Named partials? You're awesome @JoeWatkins.
Named parameter partials I should say.
 
@Crell you could start testing reflection, I've introduced a ReflectionPartial class ... we need to make sure arg info is correct
I think it is, but ... it's all invented, so I've likely got some stuff wrong ...
 
Roger that. I'll work on that this afternoon. Do you want me to just test what is there now, or test for what I think it should be?
 
5:04 PM
but the basic idea of how it ought to work is figured out ... I think ... all but that one test (variadics, because off by one) pass ... but the testing is still quite basic at the moment ...
 
What more complex situations do you think need tests?
 
intended behaviour
if I disagree, I'll change a test, or ask a question ...
 
Roger. Does ReflectionPartial extend ReflectionFunction?
 
Class [ <internal:Reflection> class ReflectionPartial extends ReflectionFunctionAbstract implements Stringable, Reflector ] {
 
Cool.
 
5:08 PM
no matter the level of nesting, invoking the partial results in the same 1(2) calls ... the original function called via partial::__invoke ...
 
So it's still based on materializing a class with a custom-built __invoke?
 
yeah ... just as closure is really, but closure has (and invented) the get_closure handler as an optimization to bypass it's invoke, that's not useful for us, we need to flatten the call anyway ...
 
5:31 PM
oh @Crell when it comes to syntax, I'm not bothered, you can probably figure out how to change it yourself ... any placeholder is okay with me, although $$ is twice as much typing as $ ...
 
I'm good with whatever the consensus is, really. Unless someone has a good argument for one sigil or another.
 
5:43 PM
@JoeWatkins Checksums, people! (or signing)
I'm shocked at how many people do not publish this info for their packages :/
 
PASS Variadics [Zend/tests/partial_function/variadics.phpt]
=====================================================================
Number of tests :   15                15
Tests skipped   :    0 (  0.0%) --------
Tests warned    :    0 (  0.0%) (  0.0%)
Tests failed    :    0 (  0.0%) (  0.0%)
Tests passed    :   15 (100.0%) (100.0%)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Time taken      :    0 seconds
@Crell a small w00t is in order
 
w00t
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier youtu.be/UnhX-bjZfCQ?t=393 maybe you'll like it
@Crell no ...
ʷ⁰⁰ᵗ
 
:-)
 
;)
 
6:14 PM
Is there any chance that any of you would like to participate on a web developer day talk for 40 minutes ? Could be longer depending on what you want to talk about, would be nice to promote the new upcoming PHP features, it can be about whatever you want as long as it is PHP related
 
Like a panel, podcast, conf talk...?
 
yes
everyone is invited, it doesn't matter what you want to talk about, it has to be PHP or PHP core related
Of course this is all online due to the pandemic
would gladly host any of you and give you free drinks and pizza
sadly not possible
 
commit 00dd54145f78ad35032a09793b65e1e9faf877aa (HEAD -> partials, krakjoe/partials)
Author: Joe Watkins <krakjoe@php.net>
Date:   Thu Apr 15 20:20:37 2021 +0200

    fix this

commit f4765467408e475b7bd4b19406d5cc44a6947d1b
Author: Joe Watkins <krakjoe@php.net>
Date:   Thu Apr 15 20:01:30 2021 +0200

    fix that

commit 6800b640fbd43dc75dbaf86547b9170fb044cdc5
Author: Joe Watkins <krakjoe@php.net>
Date:   Thu Apr 15 20:00:07 2021 +0200

    fix that

commit 5d5cc884e26ddd4247f8f1558244fa6984fcd48f
you wouldn't believe the shit I give people about good commit messages ...
 
much description!
 
like, I'll lecture you about that for 15 minutes, no problem
 
6:22 PM
hahaha
 
Still better then mines when I'm on a W.I.P. branches
There are commits like FCK This, FCK That, FUCKING FINALLY
 
I personally debug with swearing words
so I guess it's something common
die('Tramp');
 
@Girgias lol, my commits are literally all -m wip
 
> I am a dunce.
> (garbage commit) fixed regression
> imports media items, relationship between parent and child is screwy
 
Some people hate fuck, I hate code, and that's represented by my commit messages
I do clean them up afterwards
 
6:30 PM
those are commit messages that were pushed to a branch I was working on... any of the WIP messages I make are amended though...
had a comment of // Turn back. at the top... 'formalized' it to My apologies for anyone who has to use this.
 
I usually don't commit swear words
just debugging
die('truck full of dicks');
 
as;ldfkjasl;djf;alskdjfasflda;sdjfk is the closest I get to swearing in a commit message, lol
 
One time I remember we added a dirty pic when someone finished loading all translations for a system that we were making
and we forgot to take it away
 
semi-relevant
Mar 25 at 22:45, by Tiffany
Even if it's something that's throwaway, it's a good habit to follow. What happens if you become used to sending a password over plaintext, and you happen to share a password that shouldn't be? onosecond
 
we made up a story that a hacker that went by the alias of TheJoker hacked the servers, they bought it
 
6:56 PM
Hey anyone using Symfony, how can you assert only one true bool on collection? for example, user has cars, but only one car isDefualt car. I was trying to use PrePersist Lifecycle callback, but maybe there is an annotation i'm not aware of, any ideas?
 
Just do a select on pre persist
 
@ln-s yeah, just a bit messy. trying to find a cleaner way.
 
And what would you think an annotation would do if there would exist such annotation?
 
@ln-s asset only one true bool on collection. @uniqueCollectionBool :'') lol
 
can't you iterate through the collection and assert that yourself ?
 
6:59 PM
@ln-s of course.
 
@uniqueCollectionBool Yeah now you see how strange it sounds
then do it
Unless you can extend annotations somehow
 
@ln-s No, sounds pretty useful to me.
@ln-s like I said trying to find a cleaner way.
 
then uniqueCollectionBool could be a custom annotation that you could use
 
Or just create a trait
which does just that
so you don't have to repeat the code in each collection when you want to assert that
or a helper
etc
@KerrialBeckettNewham Just don't create a base collection, that's when inheritance starts to take over composition and then you get huge abstract classes
 
7:06 PM
@ln-s cheers, think i might just say fuck it and loop it on the entity in a prepersist.
 
if you need to reuse it, create a:

trait UniqueBoolCollection or whatever, or an abstract helper class with a static method
abstract class AssertUniqueBoolCollectionHelper{

public static function assert(Collection $collection){
....
}

}
then you'd just AssertUniqueBoolCollectionHelper::assert($this); on pre persist I suppose
 
nice, that's quite clean and reusable.
 
abstract class CollectionHelper{

public static function map(Collection $myCollection, callable $func) {
return array_map($func, iterator_to_array($myCollection));
}

}

$hasMoreThanOne = 0;

CollectionHelper::map($myCollection, static function(Collection $item) use ($defaultCarCount){
if($item->isDefault()) { $defaultCarCount++ }
});

if($defaultCarCount > 1){ throw new \Exception('Cant have more than one default car'); }
even more abstract, assuming that collection implements \Traversable
 
7:22 PM
@ln-s yeah that's cool
 
They make some interesting music
 
7:36 PM
I guess I can remove APC support from Auryn in ReflectionCacheApc.php :D
 
 
2 hours later…
9:08 PM
@JoeWatkins @JoeWatkins Um. I just pulled and ran tests, and it only ran 14 tests. Did you forget to commit one?
 
yes, pushed
 
So pushy....
Hey Joe buddy!
 
@Gordon You're in Germany... any chance you're near the GMK keycap company? =D
 
mornings
@StatikStasis: don't they ship? or is it complicated? (GMK is in 92533 Wernberg-Köblitz)
 
9:21 PM
@hakre They do eventually... you buy in a group buy and product ships by Q1 2022. It's a long process to get keycaps. They are apparently next door to a place called Candy Keys (something like that.) I was wanting to recruit him to steal one key per day until he has full set he could send me.
 
PHP is developed by true consummate professionals.
 
commit frenzy
 
@Crell Looks like my WIP branches too :P
 
looks like my production branches right now tbh, trying to debug a FTP timeout issue.
 
if the first fix for that didn't make it, why not ammend it if the next one still fixes that?
@MarkR production branches?
the nice thing with php is rsync all the things... ^^
 
9:27 PM
To get things into production I have to go through a CI/CD to build a docker image then deploy it to the main cluster. I can't just go changing files on prod
 
yeah, somehow things complicated over the last decade...
 
The price of scalability.
 
it's still SSH underneath, it's just that there are a couple of systems and processes in between.
honestly, weren't container praised for not needing production for re-producing and debugging?
and faster re-iterations?
but I'm not free from that. I sometimes just get aggressive esp. if the whole system breaks down just because of some little configuration bit.
and then you need a couple of rebuilds just to get things into order again.
 
Well containers are how I just clicked a button and spun up 35 new servers to handle my temporary workloads.
It would be a massssive pain in the arse to reliably setup something like that having to clone entire VMs each time
 
depends on the underlying file-system. but what I like about containers most is that you can run them locally.
 
9:35 PM
I run slightly different ones in dev vs prod. They're 95% the same but things like xdebug gets stripped out, opcache has its file checks disabled etc
 
Apparently.
 
geh
Did some catch up on French docs
Still have like 20 commits and all the remain stuff I didn't want to touch :|
 
merci beaucoup.
 
Merci bien.
 
9:47 PM
I hate it if I just wanna write a quick patch but then some test fails. Then looking into it first but not understanding any longer what this all was about.
 
@LeviMorrison Have we permission to update the partials RFC to include stuff we're adding now, like reflection?
 
do any of you consider error behaviour part of the public interface? like error messages?
 
That an error message is generated, yes. The type of an exception, yes. The text of the message in the exception, usually no.
 
just running two times in two different projects over merely the same issue. one was in php changing the exception message, the other is docker changing the exit status from 1 to 0 in the error case.
 
That's definitely a breaking change on docker's part.
 
9:52 PM
@Crell I'm sure its a new release, however in an error situation to not give error status is kind of shocking to me.
 
Unix's error code conventions have always been bonkers to me.
 
@Crell in php it was the message. it was improved so I won't complain much, tests did catch it, too.
 
Most of the time I wouldn't consider that breaking, but there's exceptions. (No pun intended.)
 
@Crell well obviously it wasn't considered breaking ^^ - was just wondering a bit.
I mean there is a rule I try to follow, too: never depend on exact error messages in main-path code.
 
A good rule.
 
9:56 PM
error status is fine, but not the messages.
 
@Crell It's also weird to return 0 on error, breaking change or not.
 
Yeah, that's why you really need to define and document both machine-readable error codes and human-readable messages.
 
@kelunik not always. e.g. if the error can be easily seen as not an error which is this case: deleting a container that does not exists is in its outcome not an error. a non-existing container is/was already deleted, not an error.
 
@hakre Sure, those can be a warning, so returning 0 could be fine.
 
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