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12:13 AM
played Valheim, found the little house to the south from the starting area, moved my campfire in it, repaired the walls... then burned to death. And now I can't reclaim my corpse because the door is kinda blocked by a hill and the walls are repaired ;_;
 
 
1 hour later…
1:18 AM
If you got here because you unexpectedly got this error trying to install >=20.04, check your machine has enough memory at startup. I resolved the issue simply by adjusting my VM's startup.RAM from 512 (Hyper-V default) to 1024MB — DaveRandom 13 secs ago
just in case it saves someone some of the time I just lost :-P
 
 
2 hours later…
3:10 AM
does anyone have any opinions on what to do with explicit "this record does not exist" A records when there is a wildcard?
like I want to return something that says "this is definitely not useful" for e.g. mail. and www.
currently thinking 0.0.0.0, 127.0.0.1 or 255.255.255.255 but not sure if there is a convention I am unaware of and lack the google-fu to find
at least 0... and 255... would definitely result in immediate failure if any stupid software tried to do anything with them, except very stupid malicious software which would deserve everything it got
side note, this is probably the most exasperation I have ever encountered in a "standards track" rfc tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4592#section-2.2
naming things is hard, building platforms with which one can name things is impossible
 
 
3 hours later…
6:13 AM
@DaveRandom for libdns?
 
6:38 AM
Funny. Two nights ago I just upgraded VPS to 20.04 from 16.04 (over step 18.04). :D
I didn't have any issue during action probably because it was 1GB machine.
Only, first time I met that LXD snap.
Good morning.
 
7:12 AM
moin
 
o/
 
7:35 AM
dont seem to be able to login to wiki
 
7:46 AM
@JoeWatkins have you reseted your password at master.php.net?
 
yeah, I think github.com/php/web-master/pull/11 that's going on
don't know how long it takes main to update
 
8:15 AM
@kelunik people.php.net works again ... somehow
 
8:26 AM
Optional parameter can be null oven when type hint says no ・ *General Issues ・ #80948
 
9:04 AM
@NikiC But it doesn't redirect to https://.
Can you rename web-master to web-main on GitHub? It'll do a redirect anyway.
 
 
1 hour later…
10:20 AM
The transaction is closed when dropping a table but it should not ・ PDO MySQL ・ #80949
 
 
1 hour later…
11:30 AM
@Jeeves @NikiC do you think this will be changed in a later version? That is, do you believe assigning null in this fashion will become deprecated?
Or even nullability assignment
 
11:52 AM
@JoeWatkins thanks. will look at it when feeling more 'compost mental'.
@Tiffany maybe deprecate in PHP 9.3.....or 10.3....it just would break so much stuff, someone would need to find a strong reason to remove it.
 
12:46 PM
@Danack thanks
 
1:01 PM
o/
 
@MateKocsis thanks
 
@Danack a few notes, for whenever you're ready ...
at a glance it looks like the vm changes would have a wide impact, but when you actually test and look closely ... you haven't got much option but to make those changes in the vm because otherwise it's hard to define what exactly is meant by a "literal string" for the basic reason that the compiler (not opcache) will optimize away some concats ...
right now, with vm changes, a literal string is defined as "a string in code that was written by the programmer, or created entirely from literal strings written by the programmer" ...
which is about as precise a definition you could have, easy to understand and reason about ... without the vm changes, it's much harder to define with caveats and so on ...
 
1:20 PM
Variables become null in if statements ・ opcache ・ #80950
 
2:10 PM
@kelunik no in general
 
2:59 PM
@NikiC Can I also ask your feedback? :) The "Add return type declarations for internal methods" RFC is stuck, Nicolas and I have a slightly different POVs, so your opinion could help. Also, I'm not sure if the userland tentative return type stuff is what you initially imagined. If not, then I'd happily remove this feature from the RFC completely.
 
@kelunik Would it be hard to add a link to main.php.net/forgot.php when doing a password reset on the wiki? Seems to be a common confusion
@MateKocsis I'll check it, but got to go now...
 
3:23 PM
@NikiC Thank you! Just take your time, it's really not that urgent :)
 
Apologies if this was already asked, but was PHP.net the only password leak or did that affect PECL accounts as well? I ended up changing passwords on both systems, but was just curious.
 
morns
 
3:51 PM
@NikiC Not sure, but also not sure how long the wiki will continue existing. ;-)
 
@kelunik I don't have much hope of it going away soon...
 
Voting seems to be the feature that makes replacing the wiki difficult.
 
The voting widget also sucks for anything other than yes/no.
If maintenance of systems was funded somehow, I'd say let's just write our own RFC app.
But yeah, without a concrete plan for avoiding bitrot I wouldn't suggest anything like that seriously.
For instance, if we had comprehensive test suites, required signed commits, required 2 reviews by maintainers before merge, no pushes to main branch, etc, and it automatically deployed and rolledback, etc...
 
4:11 PM
WeakReferences are collected on scope ・ *General Issues ・ #80951
 
4:24 PM
I dunno if anyone has ever missed the point of something by such a huge margin before ...
 
Oh my.
 
Against an empty needle it returns [0] instead of [false] ・ Strings related ・ #80952
 
user14525201
4:44 PM
awesome
 
5:13 PM
@jmikola Only php.net, pecl uses a separate system. Of course, changing passwords never hurts :)
 
I regularly rotate all my passwords using double-rot13
 
twice as secure than just rot13 i assume!
 
$encrypted = $password ^ ~$password;
 
precisely!
password hashing: attempting to make your password secure, but making a complete hash of it
 
5:50 PM
gzencode(): stream error ・ Zlib related ・ #80953
 
6:11 PM
> $data = implode("", file("bigfile.txt"));
 
wow
oh, that's actually the example in the manual
wtf
patch incoming
 
6:33 PM
@IMSoP Can that patch include a name that isn't terrible :P
 
sadly, I've had to edit the page for xml_parse_into_struct, rather than deleting it because it's an awful function github.com/php/doc-en/pull/523
 
found buried in a bunch of code that manages relationships between children and parent assets:
> /* relationships are a pain in the ass */
 
I mean...
 
😂
 
(Only if your date is into that...)
 
6:47 PM
@NikiC any reason apart from having to solve the voting issue?
@NikiC ssh keys are no longer used, right?
 
7:04 PM
@kelunik do you have a replacement in mind? a wiki seems like the right tool for the things it's used for, but I guess any wiki would do
 
@IMSoP Yes, a GitHub repository + GitHub pages, voting included by JS, either externally or as part of main.php.net.
 
that seems like a lot more faff than just editing a wiki page to me
for the actual wiki part, I mean; happy to have voting external to it
(not that I have a vote right now)
 
You can edit markdown on GitHub like a wiki page, but you could also do PRs which you currently can't.
 
why do you want a PR to a wiki, though? just edit, that's the whole point
 
Because people shouldn't edit random RFCs of others.
 
7:10 PM
I'm personally fine with RFCs being jointly edited; the aim is to get community consensus, after all
 
That's why I'd like to have PRs ;-)
 
no, I mean literally edited; as in, feel free to click "edit" on my RFCs if you think you can improve them
if I disagree, I'll roll it back
 
I definitely don't want that on my RFCs.
 
Same. I appreciate input from others, but I don't want others editing without prior knowledge.
 
@IMSoP it's sensible to have an RFC 'belong to someone' to prevent this: wiki.php.net/rfc/p-plus-plus?do=revisions
 
7:14 PM
Since it's taboo to edit someones RFC, PRs would increase collaboration.
 
@Danack that's a pretty awful example to bring up, because the whole RFC was basically a straw man against something Zeev proposed
so if anyone "owned" it, it was Zeev
 
right. as in, sometimes people fundamentally disagree, and having edit wars is bad.
and having a separate document prevents people arguing over edits to one doc.
 
moving to a repo wouldn't solve that anyway, unless you had some really complex permission scheme
anyone with access to edit their own RFC would have the same access to edit other people's as now
I can see some people liking PRs as a way to suggest constructive edits, but they don't actually prevent unconstructive ones, in this particular scenario
 
Preventing destructive edits isn't really necessary, that's what version history is for.
 
Revert of the revert of the revert ... ad nauseam
 
7:28 PM
github.com/php/php-rfcs/pull/1 is definitely a good example of what can happen via pull RFCs
If memory serves, it was through those discussions that allowed us null|foo|bar rather than ?(foo|bar)
 
@NikiC github.com/splitbrain/dokuwiki/blob/… doesn't seem to be hookable, but the lang files can be edited.
 
> Vote based on perceived trust and dependability, not popularity.
Well I can see that might be a fun one
:)
 
Being one thing doesn't preclude the other. Honestly they go heavily hand in hand, but popularity shouldn't be a decision driver.
 
@Sara If anyone does vote more than once for the same candidate, do you plan to discard their ballot entirely, or just discard their ranked choices starting with the first duplicate?
 
I don't feel their ballot should become invalid. I think the punishment of losing that one vote is enough. Basically you let the algorithm deal with it. Say Bob votes Alice for both 3rd and 4th preference: In some round Alice gets eliminated, his rlvite transfers based on his next rank choice. That choice isn't valid, so it gets carried to the next elimination, where it's reapporuoned to their NEXT oreference. if all their remaining choice are invalid, then their vote is lost.
Ultimately, I leave it to Derick's implementation. I'm just advising that double-votings a candidate is dumb, and anyone doing that should feel bad.
 
8:14 PM
@Sara double dot in wiki..php.net :P
 
is it appropriate for ben to vote on this ?
maybe a little unfair to the other volunteers who may not have a vote
@Sara
 
@MarkR I think that particular experiment didn't work very well, actually - github's threading and notifications are terrible, and most of the discussion on an RFC is about the feature itself, not any particular section of it
somebody pointed at a different project which used a repository per RFC, and had issues and PRs as the conversation threads, which seemed like an interesting approach
might have the opposite problem of not scaling down well to smaller RFCs, though?
 
has anyone suggested anything other than dokuwiki or github ?
personally, I don't care what we use, I just don't want it in our hands ...
 
I'm sure there must be SaaS wiki providers out there
 
have you seen how much time nikita is wasting on this shit ? that costs us, in a material way, he is capable of and willing to make actual improvements to the language, and we're utterly wasting it
 
8:22 PM
@Sara I'm not sure exactly how Derick's implementation handles it. In past elections I believe any ballot with a duplicate simply wasn't counted. But I agree that it probably makes more sense just to remove duplicate preferences from the ballot. @Derick
 
not just nikita, a bunch of people ...
 
oh, absolutely; I'm all for outsourcing the shit out of everything
but "having a wiki" isn't the cause of any of the current problems, "having a wiki on an unmanaged server and updating it manually because we've got a bunch of custom plugins" maybe is
 
you can fit the number of companies that have made material contributions to php on the back of a bus ticket ... so it depends what you mean by current problems, I consider it a problem that nikita is writing php code, that he's having to deal with stuff way way below his pay grade ... that's a problem ...
 
I'm not disagreeing, at all
 
it's not an easy convince though ... as with each day that passes and people forget about or care less about what happened in the first place, as they feel more secure about the fact nothing really bad happened, it gets even harder ...
for crazy, almost paranoid reasons ... you'll have to contend with people asking what we do when world politics results in restricted access for some part of the world ... I mean world politics ...
I don't really have the energy to engage that sort of paranoia, and don't think you can convince someone thinking in that way that they are being unreasonable ... and some of the loudest voices think in this way ...
 
8:34 PM
oh, indeed; but I don't think "let's re-design the RFC process" is a good use of energy right now, either
 
@JoeWatkins This is a potential problem whether we maintain infrastructure or a company volunteers. I see the latter as potentially more problematic in that regard.
 
we're unlikely to get to zero custom code over night, so getting things like OS updates into safe hands seems like a must
 
dumb question perhaps re: our little leak. But didn't master just pull a copy of the MD5'd pw to test against?
nm I guess the only thing colliding the token would get is the email
 
8:53 PM
at least the wiki is (99%) third-party software; bugs.php.net is probably a bigger target to replace, and there are certainly SaaS alternatives for that
 
SaaS is usually priced per-user though right? And PHP has a fair few
 
well, the budget is exactly zero, I believe
I'm assuming open source plan / sponsorship
 
Wishful thinking I'd guess =\
 
I dunno, to pick an example: Phabricator, open source and written in PHP but with a SaaS option; I bet they'd love to be able to add "the software that powers bugs.php.net"
does someone pay for the current servers, or are they provided gratis by a hosting company?
 
there's flarum.org, built with PHP, open source, easy to extend ( nice extension system ), and has a small but good set of extensions made by the community that can be used.
 
cmb
9:07 PM
"the software that is powered by PHP bugs" :p
 
It's worth pointing out that using any third party system will no doubt cause outrage among their competitors
if it's a PHP based one
 
true; but that leaves us maintaining a complex piece of software that's more or less designed not to be useful to anyone else
 
i doubt flarum would, as it doesn't use a framework ( it's a mix of Symfony components, Laravel packages, PSR implementations, and other libraries ).
 
Mantis has been mentioned a couple of times
 
lol
 
9:12 PM
I know nothing about it, just trying to put options on the table
This article is a comparison of issue tracking systems that are notable, including bug tracking systems, help desk and service desk issue tracking systems, as well as asset management systems. The comparison includes client-server application, distributed and hosted systems. == General == == Features == == Input interfaces == == Notification interfaces == == Revision control system integration == == Authentication methods == == Containers == == See also == Comparison of help desk issue tracking software List of personal information managers List of project management softwar...
 
is this meant to be used only for bug tracking? in that case, Flarum shouldn't be an option.
 
@kelunik nope
 
well, that's what I was concentrating on; there are certainly people who'd like to switch the mailing lists to something else, but I don't think there's much infrastructure involved with those currently
 
Flarum could be an option replace the mailing list, RFC process, and bug tracking, simply to put everything in one place.
 
I can see that being useful, if it had the right features
 
9:23 PM
since it's extendable, the only thing that would be needed is an extension for the karma system as far as i can tell.
 
Should the PHP Documentation say implode ( string $separator = '', array $array ) : string There are a lot of people who needlessly declare empty glue. An empty string has always been the default glue, right? If not, when was an empty string declared as the default? I don't see in anything in the changlelog on this.
 
you can't have a default parameter before a non-default one
at least not without named parameters
the old signature, now removed is actually implode ( array $array , string $separator = '' ) : string though I think
 
implode() is "special". it's basically: function implode(string|array $sepOrPieces, ?array $pieces = null): string;
With logic to say: if ($pieces===null) { $pieces = $sepOrPieces; $sep= ''; }
It's janky, but valid. IIRC there's a deprecation on it to make it be merely: function implode(string $sep, array $pieces): string;
 
9:39 PM
@azjezz Extendable, aka code we write and therefore maintain. Still not great.
 
none of the other options has the same karma system that PHP RFC process has right now, the closest thing i suppose is https://github.com/FriendsOfFlarum/gamification#gamification-by-friendsofflarum ( have "internal" rank, and allow only "internal" memebers to vote ).

( this ofc if the current karma system is a required feature ), but again, maintaining 1 flarum extension is better than having to maintain the current infra.
 
Has the default glue for implode always been an empty string? (or is it null as Sara claims?)
 
the effect is similar to a default of an empty string
the implementation is a bunch of C code that doesn't work the same way a PHP function signature would
 
.. so I've been playing with webviews lately, and it is disconcertingly easy to start writing a web browser.
 
IMHO implode(iterable $blah, string $glue = ''); explode(string $str, string $separator=' ');
 
9:48 PM
what about join? blank candid look
 
Wouldn't take it that far, implode has been the PHP dude for a long time now
there are some functions which need of a certain parameter consistency, should be fixed at some point
 
10:03 PM
@mickmackusa I didn't claim it was null. Read again.
 
ah sorry, right.
wouldn't php8 be a good place to fix up / modernize implode()?
Or does it need to wait until php9 now?
 
cmb
@mickmackusa see php.net/implode (triple overloaded)
 
I went to the manual before I came here.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:35 PM
@cmb ... it looks like we removed the wrong one in PHP 8?
Or are the docs just conveying that weirdly?
implode(array $array): string is compatible with implode(array $array, string $separator) (default $separator to empty string)... but that's the one that's deprecated?
 
@LeviMorrison technically, yes; practically most code out there is using $separator, $array order … thus for the sake of BC at least…
 

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