« first day (3794 days earlier)      last day (1137 days later) » 
00:00 - 22:0022:00 - 00:00

12:22 AM
PHP problem with JIT ・ JIT ・ #80839
 
 
5 hours later…
5:01 AM
convert to int ・ Math related ・ #80840
 
 
7 hours later…
12:19 PM
I've been far too absent from PHP so I missed the whole thing, but the enums RFC is amazing, it's basically the exact design I have wanted to implement myself :D
(I have more than one unfinished implementation of what that RFC achieved.)
If the next step, ADTs, happens, I'll be very happy indeed the next time I get the chance to write some PHP.
 
12:37 PM
@Crell @IluTov you're heroes :)
 
12:54 PM
@Andrea Hey, glad you like it :)
 
Do you think the next steps are feasible in the 8.1 timeframe?
 
@NikiC I resolved the remaining discussions, Is there a way I can reproduce the issue you've mentioned yesterday? Can I merge now or do we wait until that issue is resolved?
I'm sick of resolving merge conflicts :D
@Andrea Probably. Although I'm not sure what I want to work on next.
 
Even though it's not full ADTs I am very glad there are proper enums now. The number one reason is var_dump() :)
 
1:19 PM
`php_printf("%senum(%s::%s)\n", COMMON, ZSTR_VAL(ce->name), Z_STRVAL_P(case_name_zval));`

Huh, so are the different cases all instances of the same class? I guess that makes sense and is the most efficient option for the non-ADT case.
I assume tagged unions will have one class per case.
 
@Andrea Yeah, we've switched at some point. We've dropped individual methods per case so there was no reason for there to be separate classes. Instead we discriminate with an internal property that just stores the case name.
@Andrea Yeah, each case with associated data will probably have it's own class, although that's not strictly necessary.
 
@IluTov Right. I think that can save memory used for all those Zend class definitions :p
@IluTov Yeah, but better for performance presumably.
// but what about
enum Foo {
  case Bar(…);
  case Baz; // <--| these
  case Qux; // <--|
}
 
1:36 PM
@Andrea They probably wouldn't need one.
 
@IluTov how many things do you have, partial functions, pattern matching, asymetric visibility and ADTs right?
 
@Girgias Also blocks for match and string interpolation. Too many things -.-
 
Haha I feel you, my list of ideas just keeps growing
I thought about list/dict types for PHP last night and maybe using a flag on the HashTable could be a way to achieve this
 
Partial functions, huh…
I had an RFC (actually still have but have neglected) for adding functions for all the operators, and then I was going to add some methods to Closure for partial application
However… the existence of lambdas kinda reduced my motivation somewhat
I don't think I can think of a convincing argument for them with lambdas available, even though, like, Haskell has both.
 
2:45 PM
Short functions do make a strong argument against partial functions, yeah.
Honestly, maybe I should revive pipe op for the short-lambda world.
$result = $input
  |> 'strtoupper'
  |> (fn($x) => htmlentities($x, encoding: 'UTF-8'))
  |> (fn($x) => "<p>$x</p>");
Eh... it's not as pretty as I wanted, but.... /shrug
I guess if pipes are popular enough we can add partial-functions later to make them more attractive.
 
partial functions would be a 'cleaner' way around not being able to reference the function table directly.
 
As in that |> 'strtoupper' example, yeah.
string callables are gross
Well, array callables are gross too, arguably moreso
Hrmmm.... would funcname{} be a terrible syntax? the braces being a way to differentiate function references from constants?
 
Yeah... I hacked together a change into the get constant opcode a while ago that would check the symbol table first and return a closure, but with the two different symbol tables it was bluegh
 
$x = strtoupper{};
$y = $x("Hello"); // "HELLO"
 
I recon there's been a few suggestions over the years... strtoupper::func, ft(strtoupper), strtoupper(??) etc
 
2:53 PM
And to extend that to PFA:
$x = htmlentities{$1, ENT_QUOTES, $2};
$y = $x('<p>Hello</p>', 'UTF-8');
Ah ::func is kinda nice.
SomeClass::someMethod::func as well then
Or ::meth for consistency?
 
something like ft() would have the benefit of being usable for instance methods.
 
my opinion on function references is that there's no good syntax for it
we need to unify the symbol tables ☭
 
Yup
 
$x = $obj->instanceMethod::method;
$x($thingOperatingOnDollarObj);
$y = SomeClass::instanceMethod::method;
$y($obj, $thingOperationOnDollarY);
PHP 9 then, let's unify the symbol tables.
 
If we could do instanceMethod::method but with properties and methods having different symbol tables wouldn't that need some convoluted processing?
 
2:56 PM
Step 1) Catalog ALL the potential symbol names exported by core, and popular frameworks. Identify collisions.
 
I think a realistic strategy is: PHP 8.something, constants fall back to functions (etc), and a deprecation notice is issued for conflicts. PHP 9, conflicts are illegal.
 
I think a compiler context switch... maybe... ft($foo->bar->method) the top node becomes the -> the lhs is the object to bind to and the rhs is the method name.
 
But, and here's the devil in the details…
 
We could probably provide some reasonable escape hatch.
function foo() {}
const foo = 'bar';

$x = foo::func;
$y = foo::const;
$z = foo; // You get the const (since getting function references are the "new" thing, but you also get a warning).
 
👻 cAsE iNsEnSiTiViTy 😈
 
2:58 PM
^ In 8.x, to prepare people
Case sensitivity will (largely) save our asses since we've long trained people to use all-caps for constants.
Oh, but functions arent' case sensitive.
Right.... fsck.
 
Constants are case sensitive it's the opposite which is the problem :')
and too slow
 
I'm kinda partial to the idea of ::func, but also I think that the end goal should be to unify the tables, at which point ::func becomes entirely useless.
 
Agreed, but we need a path to get there.
 
maybe PHP 9 should drop case-insensitivity but provide a migration tool that runs strtolower() on all function/method symbols :p
 
IMO partials would be the best way to get there, because even after the tables are unified, they still provide something of use, whereas ::func is 100% redundant.
 
3:05 PM
@Sara remember the Tony rant?
Very well possible you stopped following that thread when it reached that point though...
 
The toxic kindergarten one?
 
Yes
 
A rant that will live in infamy
 
I guess his "framework" uses case-insensitivity just because "he can" which makes no sense
 
He's wrong for doing that, and he should feel bad.
 
3:11 PM
... can someone link me this rant
Seems funny
 
May 20 '18 at 18:38, by Statik Stasis
Same Tony that does this? https://www.tonymarston.net/php-mysql/role-based-access-control.html
probably can find it on his blog.
 
Basically the whole thread is popcorn-worthy
Anything Tony says, prepare to facepalm
 
Thanks, I'll read that after email writing for the @ extending thread
 
whowa, externals looks... slightly more modern, w hen did that happen
 
@MarkR bout a week ago I think.
 
3:15 PM
Search is more versatile
 
Sweet
 
apparently @crell is wrong: tonymarston.net/php-mysql/…
 
The fact that his site's design dates back to the mid-90s is an endless source of amusement for me
> Having started development in PHP as far back as 2002 after 20 years with other languages, and having developed an open source framework called RADICORE with which I has also developed a large ERP application I feel that I am qualified to discuss any so-called "failings" in the language. As none of the "problems" mentioned in the article has ever affected my style of programming
🤦
 
Can someone help me with fixing my git clone of PHP doc? I am getting a lot of errors like ERROR (file:///C:/xampp/htdocs/phpdoc/en/reference/componere/book.xml:21:12)
</para>
------------^
Element include is not declared in para list of possible children
 
Are you running the docs through apache, or is that just where you cloned them?
 
3:27 PM
I reused a folder after I got rid of XAMPP
 
(I'm a little confused why you cloned them there when running off apache or a web server is unnecessary)
 
@IluTov Run tests with --file-cache-prime and then --file-cache-use. We'll have to wait until Dmitry can take a look, as the preferred resolution is not clear here.
 
What's the point in deleting a folder and creating a new one if you already have one on the disk
 
Naming
 
3:28 PM
I have a projects folder on my secondary hard drive, then I group them by language, so php folder, and then all php projects in there
@Dharman it's a "mean what you say, and say what you mean" thing, imo. I'm hardly a paragon of organization, but if I have to mental map stuff, I get frustrated.
I'll have a look at mine in a bit, and see if I can help troubleshoot. I need to update my repo to git anyway.
 
I think it might have something to do with the fact that I cloned from GH
I am recloning from GIT now
 
@Dharman it shouldn't matter, unless what's on the main branch isn't successfully building
And if those were synced to git, we'd be getting a couple dozen emails from the staging server to fix the build
 
hi all. any one here good with autoit?
 
OK, master builds fine, so the problem is with PR426
 
@Danack Apparently Tony is a dofus.
 
cmb
3:44 PM
@Dharman github.com/php/doc-en/pull/426 shouldn't cause these issues
 
Yeah, I know, which is what is confusing for me
I deleted the branch and pulled it once more but still the same result
 
I put forward the pipe operator RFC because I thought short-lambdas were sufficient to make them usable. The general pushback on the list at the time was "not good enough, we want partials first". I'm still nudging @IluTov to work on that as soon as he finishes the last of the Enum bug fixing. :-) Once that's working I will be reviving both the pipe operator and short-functions RFCs, as they all fit together nicely.

That said, someFunc::name or similar would also be "good enough" to make pipe palatable to the Internal denizens, I think, so if someone can pull that off that would also un
 
Who wants to be the sacrificial lamb to suggest unifying functions and constants on the ML? :p
 
@Tiffany @cmb I rebased the branch against master and now I got a cat
 
@Dharman \o/
 
cmb
3:51 PM
meow
 
So I assume the PR is borked
 
@cmb 😸
 
@Crell there's a more precise phrase...
 
Of course, if folks think pipe will pass without partials, or on the expectation that partials or ::func will pass eventually, I will happily refresh that patch and repost the RFC this week. I just want them to all pass.
 
4:10 PM
It would probably pass without them, but a lot of the power requires partials.
 
cmb
@Dharman configure succeeds with PR 426 for me
 
4:22 PM
@MarkR That's kind of where I am, too. My gut sense is that they would be close to 2/3 one way or the other now, but with any kind of simplified function reference (partials, ::func, etc.) they'd pass easily. So, I'm trying to work political levers to make one of those happen first. :)
 
@NikiC Ok cool. Did you hit him up?
 
4:53 PM
@Crell I would vote for it, but I don't think @NikiC would. He pointed out several times that having function piping without some form of simplified function reference is likely to make code worse because you are more likely to use stringly or arrayly typed callables instead of symbols.
 
@IluTov yeah (but monday is holiday in russia)
@LeviMorrison that
 
When are the stack traces collected during the creation of a thrown Exception?
 
@NikiC Ok. No problem, no hurry.
 
@LeviMorrison Which is valid, and why I think we need partials. I just know it's out of my league to implement. :-(
 
Fortunately piping is only a few lines of code to implement in userland so we're not particularly missing out.
function pipe($input, callable ...$sequence) {
   foreach ($sequence as $seq) $input = $seq($input);
   return $input;
}
Spl\pipe? :D runs
 
5:19 PM
@MarkR Get out.
And yeah, building a user-space compose isn't hard. But it would still be nicer as a built-in operator.
 
5:36 PM
@MarkR (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
 
fine, fine... spl_pipe, gawd
 
@cmb Yeah, anyway I am not sure how to validate that comment you left on that PR. I am able to build the manual even after removing these lines, but I don't know how to check if they were needed or not
 
cmb
@Dharman you'd need to actually build the manual, and then check manually whether the versions are properly displayed on the pages :(
 
That means I need to instal PHD
 
5:54 PM
towards the end of this answer it is said that PHP interfaces are abstract classes without methods declared. Does this mean anything? I'm tempted to remove that sentence.
 
@Dharman you really should try docker at some point, then you could use a someone elses environment: github.com/Danack/PHPDocTool
 
I heard Windows supports docker now, so I might try it
 
@Dharman Use WSL2 mode
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier regard "Chesterton’s Fence". In particular, I think it's more about a performance hit for interfaces in Java, which apparently may be a thing.
 
If you try to do php doc builds on docker windows without hosting the files on a WSL2 partition you're in for a world of lag
 
6:06 PM
@Danack that is very interesting, thanks
 
I was here before and some people or a person was giving me a good set of links to edu about MVC and things like this (like some youTube vids and things like this); would you maybe have it or know who this could have been?
I *** formatted my two drives some time ago (all that I had) and today I put like one plus year of all of my recent files in a thrash bin, and I lost it
 
@MarkR really?
 
@AndyRogers No, and this rule is still in effect:
Oct 11 '20 at 15:38, by Danack
@AndyRogers You have been spamming this room for years. This behaviour is detrimental to everyone else here. This is a room owner warning. You are allowed to ask for help on how to write a particular piece of code, but you are forbidden from asking any open ended rambling question on "how to learn" or theoretical questions about programming unrelated to a useful project. Violating this rule will result in a ban from chat.
 
a) SET UP A BACKUP on your PC b) there is a Windows "software-kind" type of backup that you can set up too (like recover files from File History) - use it; I did wipe out last 10 years twice :)
 
@Dharman don't really need to install it, just clone the repo and run it
well, phd is used to render the docs, I mean
there are CLI scripts
 
6:16 PM
@Tiffany Docker on windows uses a network based file share to host files on Windows, but it's slow. Especially if you're mounting windows dirs onto WSL2. If you put the files in into the WSL2 image store it's practically native speed
 
slower than virtualbox? o_O
 
is there a way to find all of my messages through here, in the archive?
I was trying to look it up, but it does not seem to be
this was like one year ago at the max, some good sources
 
there's a search box in the top right, you can copy and paste your user ID, but you have to have some memory of what you said
 
I am not sure if you know it - the Windows file history, but for example you have like Desktop/php-edu-folder-here (you add it to this functionality and then you can recover the files if you loose it)
 
6:20 PM
@AndyRogers there is a search box on the page. But I think you still need to ask for help
@AndyRogers this is off-topic, and you are annoying.
 
The friendly bin sounds so passive aggressive xD
 
@MarkR an equivalent to "we really value your phone call, please continue to hold."
 
since we are here :) can we collectively diagnose my PHP problems?
:)
 
no
 
ok, I have docker installed. What now
 
6:26 PM
cry, mostly <3
 
I could do that without docker
unless I should use someone elses tears
 
sending you dockerized ghost hugs
 
This option is greyed out. "Use the WSL 2 based engine (Windows Home can only run the WSL 2 backend)"
@MarkR Is this what you meant? I can't use that option
 
Oh right... =\ don't develop on home lol
 
@Dharman git clone github.com/Danack/PHPDocTool and read the readme?
 
6:29 PM
But you may need to install a WSL2 engine
 
(but I don't know windows so can't/won't answer windows questions)
 
what could have been the user name of the person who gave me the good links to like MVC sources?
 
in Let me talk to myself, Feb 11 at 21:33, by Dharman
Here are some good repositories of information:
http://room-11.github.io/tutorials.html
https://phptherightway.com/#code_style_guide
PDO:
https://phpdelusions.net/pdo
https://websitebeaver.com/php-pdo-prepared-statements-to-prevent-sql-injection
XSS:
https://paragonie.com/blog/2015/06/preventing-xss-vulnerabilities-in-php-everything-you-need-know
Clean code:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EmboKQH8lM
PHP on Stack Overflow:
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/php?tab=Votes
https://stackoverflow.com/tags/php/info
 
@Dharman are you on Windows 10 Home or Pro?
 
home
 
6:34 PM
buy a Pro key off ebay
 
I bought it myself
 
they're like 10-15 USD
 
that sounds extremely dubious
 
@IMSoP it does 😒 but it worked...and Docker on Windows Home is BS
 
it works ... until Microsoft terminates the license because they discover it's been stolen
 
6:35 PM
it's been 1-2 years, haven't had an issue... I picked the most legitimate looking seller I could find
 
there's no such thing as a legitimate seller that undercuts the official license by 90%
 
yeah, appears ebay may be cracking down on them, I didn't pick the cheapest when I bought the key, but about the cheapest I can find now is 20 USD... which still isn't bad
 
They're usually bulk activation or repurposed keys.
 
@Dharman TL;DR, get Windows 10 Pro, you will save yourself headache
 
but I will lose money
 
6:39 PM
 
It's worth getting windows 10 just so you can use Bitlocker. Anyone of any significance who doesn't keep their dev machines encrypted is a lunatic IMO.
 
please don't feed the person who has spent years asking for advice on how to learn.
 
I guess it (buying suspiciously cheap licenses) is a bit like buying a fake Rolex: it's fine if you accept what you're doing, but don't kid yourself that you're getting a bargain on the real thing
 
@IMSoP yeah, I can agree with that
I need to back up my key in case I ever need to format... x_X
 
Wes
@Danack omg he's back?
what was the og name again?
 
6:42 PM
periodically
 
Wes
right
 
I think Windows 10 does that differently - when you activate, the key is turned into a "digital entitlement"
 
could it be new people every time?
 
Wes
this dude lol "since we are here :) can we collectively diagnose my PHP problems?"
 
@Dharman it's not
 
Wes
6:43 PM
sure why not, that's why we are here for lol
 
but maybe that's only if you set up a (whatever they're calling Passport this year) account
 
@Dharman he has a very particular conversational pattern that's relatively easy to detect... looks like word salad
 
thats called learned english
 

Wooboy

Jun 2 '18 at 7:20, 3 hours 14 minutes total – 220 messages, 13 users, 1 star

Bookmarked Jun 27 '18 at 13:42 by Danack

 
No.......it's a problem where he's unable to form complete thoughts internally. Which if he could, he'd turn them into google queries, rather than
putting them here.
one line at a time
without really realising where the end of the thought is going to be.
 
6:45 PM
Would you stop that :P
 
and giving us updates on his inner monologue on false belief that we need to hear his latest bit of thought.
 
... It makes the same ding as when someone @s me in a message and then I see it's just you banning someone rather than someone wanting to talk to me and I feel lonely :P
 
turn off all sounds :D
 
@MarkR change bell to 'when mentioned' ?
or none.....but yeah, that's cost of being a room-owner.
 
Wes
6:47 PM
i have mentioned too, but i still hear the sound
 
or stick cotton-wool in your ears?
 
Speaking of cotton wool, I'm getting my first elephpant soon \o/ ... from the conference I didn't get to go to because of Covid. I'm thinking i'll sew a little mask onto it as a momento
 
@MarkR chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/37470940#37470940 used to have a bot function to "annoy" a user...
 
that's just evil :|
I mean, Peehaa completely deserves it, but still.
 
@MarkR A/ You're FIRST? How do you not have any yet. Shit, I'd have sent you one by now if I'd realized. B/ Do you have a photo of what it looks like? I always like seeing new elephpants.
 
6:53 PM
I don't have one yet :(
but I need to make room for one first
need to buy shelves...
 
Shit. I could drive one down to you...
 
fill all the wall space in my living room with... shelves
 
I've never been to any conferences. But it's a PHP Yorkshire one so flickr.com/photos/atomictaco/48186190461
 
(But post may be better in these troubled times.))
Ah, the yorkie ones are adorbs.
@Tiffany DM me on Masto with an address to ship to and I'll pick one out to send you.
 
@Sara are you sure?
 
6:58 PM
@Tiffany Yeah. Make a ranking of which one you'd most like from here: elephpant.me/herd/sara-golemon . No guarantee you can have your top pick (which is why I said a ranking) and I'll see which one I can part with.
My counts aren't accurate on there, I didn't actually count duplicates, just "yes I do or don't have this one"
 
I'll have a look later, thank you for the offer :)
 
Waitttt a sec, HHVM has its own elephpant? shouldn't that be a elephhvmt?
Those are really cool, I didn't realise there were so many unique
 
Andreas and (I think) Ben Ramsey have pictures of their collections on twitter
 
:D
 
Mark Baker sets up a table full for photo ops and conferences sometimes, but I can't find a pic this second
this site is also fun: afieldguidetoelephpants.net
 
7:06 PM
Jus tdon't send anything to the UK. Stupid customs BS due to Brexit
 
o rly D:
 
well, that's always been a problem from the US; probably more backlog with the mess of things coming from EU, though
 
@Sara I just got my first one thanks to benjamin :')
@Derick I've been receiving stuff from abroad without too much trouble tho
 
@Tiffany I have a box with the standard blue ones if you want one. :-)
 
7:42 PM
Warning if default_charset is set to windows-1256 ・ *General Issues ・ #80841
 
My computer can't handle the docker. I give up. I need a new machine. This one is rubbish. I need to get my hands on Ryzen 5900x soon.
 
What are you running windows 98? lol
 
Docker doesn't require a lot of resources to run at all
 
I want to wait for the new ddr5 memory motherboards to come out before I build my next computer.
 
I think chip shortages will need to clear up before that happens =\
Kinda excited about inbuilt ECC though
 
7:57 PM
yes
me too
I'm excited about the PCI express 4 m.2 SSD speeds right now only the latest AMD chips support it. The newer intent chips coming out will support them too.
 
I think something is dying in my PC. It's getting worse and worse each day.
I have been rocking this setup for around 7 years
 
what do you have 980 ti
for graphics
my pc is around that old
 
GTX 970
 
You build it
 
AMD FX-8120
yeah
 
8:07 PM
or a pre build
pre builds suck
companies lock the bios
 
I don't really know what is happening, but without doing anything, everything freezes for 1-5 seconds.
 
good luck trying to install higher speed ram
provably need to replace your ssd
 
I can barely move a mouse, the sound stops, the video card stops processing anything
 
i can be a bunch of things
how many memory do you have?
 
20GB
 
8:11 PM
thats an odd number
 
2*8 + 2*2
 
no
thats what it is
you should not do that
mix different sizes
is it the same model?
 
I don't think so
 
not the same model
lol
It's your memory
buy a 2x8 for dual channel
or 1x 16
never different sizes, or different brands
 
If I can only buy the new Ryzen then I will build a new one from fresh components
 
8:13 PM
just make sure everything is compatible.
 
for the moment, I see no reason to buy stuff for this old machine
 
parts picker will help you.
but if you cannot use it on an everyday basis pretty much handicaps you.
 
I recently had to upgrade my SSD because I was just running out of space to do anything.
 
You're going from a FX-8120 to a $2000 - $3000 computer? o.O yeah you'll notice the difference lol
 
8:16 PM
Without getting alerts that I was running out of space lol
 
I sure hope so, Mark
 
lol
good choice of ssd
nvm is the 980 that has the pic 4
pci
i would go for 980 pro ssd
7,000 MB/s
 
8:52 PM
I'm almost due for a new build as well x_x
mine is from... 2015
but sticking with the same video card... not paying double what I paid for mine for a partial upgrade...
 
9:32 PM
@Tiffany irrelevant, what matters is whether it does what you need...
got a bit of a bee in my bonnet about this atm, so many ppl lately replacing perfectly good hardware with mediocre modern hardware
esp PCs which just need an SSD and then they will be good for another 5 years :-/
(ofc I realised you have more-than-average needs)
 
morns
 
@DaveRandom ping
 
@Girgias peng
and yes I am sorry I am shit, am not much in charge of where I go rn but also I am shit at communication and I'm sorry :-P
 
No worries :p
Wanted just to double check :')
 
(guess what I just remembered :-P)
 
9:41 PM
(that you missed the opportunity to send Friday on Friday?)
 
Hi there, is this chat room a way to ask questions that I consider too simple for the forums or not?
 
@MarkR I have the one and only original HHVM prototype elephpant. There's a subtle variant that was produced in a smallish batch years after mine was created, but mine is 100% one-of-a-kind unique.
Hir name is Steve.
 
9:57 PM
Hi all!

I recently made a PR in libgd to support AVIF: https://github.com/libgd/libgd/pull/671/ . It was just merged, and it's part of the latest release of libgd.
I'd like to help get support into PHP
I see, for example, that it would be needed here:

https://github.com/php/php-src/blob/master/ext/gd/gd.c
 
@Girgias it's always friday in iceland @DaveRandom
 
I see also a few core PHP maintainers on github. At least one says they can often be found in this chat room.

I'd love to get some guidance on standards to follow etc!
 
@BenMorss so afaik Pierre is still the gd guy, but also I will tentatively ping @Danack because he does stuff with imagick and is the most likely person to be useful to you I think
 
00:00 - 22:0022:00 - 00:00

« first day (3794 days earlier)      last day (1137 days later) »