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12:04 AM
@DaveRandom 403 Forbidden
wat
 
12:21 AM
lol you are not allowed to see pics of MS Home mice from the 90s
 
with or without the scroll wheel?
 
Good times, great hardware in the 90s, everything was really well made until like 96
@Tiffany initially without, then I think the 2nd gateway pc came with one that did
 
Wes
dave do you remember when our parents bought computers like they would solve all the accounting problems at home and sorta stuff, but at most what they did was running a couple of games
 
those were the days...
 
The first gateway was a 486, the 2nd was PII I think
 
Wes
12:29 AM
my dad bought an amstrad computer late 80
 
3.11/95 and 95/98 respectively
Good times
 
Wes
we played some lame 2d plane game on it
 
I miss Hover sometimes
 
Wes
that computer costed them the equivalent of several thousand dollars of today
 
I think a friend had an Amstrad, I definitely played with C64s
There was a BBC micro when I was really young but I don't remember using it
 
Wes
12:31 AM
the first actual used computer (by me) was a pentium 2 233mhz, or something like that
which was mid 90s, i think... maybe 97 ish
 
2 mins ago, by DaveRandom
Good times
:-P
 
Wes
yes
 
I loved that gateway keyboard so much, was a real struggle to let it go when PS/2 ports disappeared
Although that said you do occasionally see them even now
 
Wes
just remembered something funny
when we bought the pentium we also got an UPS
long story short this thing was sealed shut, probably to prevent people to replace batteries, and it went crazy overnight
it started beeping and since it was self powered it kept beeping
my dad hat to bury in layers of padding
because it kept beeping for days
and it sounded like an apartment alarm so in order not to alert neighbors, we had to do that
there was no way to stop it. hilarious :B
 
12:38 AM
you didn't call the manufacturer? o_O
 
Wes
it was old when it died, so we didn't bother
also we hoped it would just stop, probably. instead it went on for days. rofl
 
The first computer I managed to crash: twitter.com/MrDanack/status/1272824245953970177
 
ooh, you mean it had started beeping several years later
thought it had started beeping like a couple days after you bought the thing
 
Wes
yeah it was at least a couple of years old when it went crazy
 
@Danack "It's a unix system, I know this!"
 
Wes
12:41 AM
> my dad hat to bury in layers of padding
*my dad had to bury it in layers of padding
 
@Wes You sure that wasn't the sound of it telling you the batteries were about to die? :P
Seems like an UPS thing to do
 
Wes
mine doesn't... btw, gotta change batteries again -.-
i think i need a bigger one
 
Are power cuts that bad over there that you need one?
 
crap, you guys reminded me of something I need to buy ...
 
Wes
12:45 AM
well, i'd like to have the time to save work if needed
power cuts happen like 5 times/year
 
laptop? :P
 
a UPS, for my work machine
 
Wes
i have big fingers :P
 
I am so happy to have a laptop here
Power outages happen way regularly :(
@Wes Get a big laptop :D
 
@Wes I knew a mathematician (well, physicist gone rogue) who bought one of these super small laptops. He'd walk around in the corridor, laptop on one palm and typing with the other hand, deep in thought. It looked funny.
 
Wes
12:47 AM
i tried. i had an HP 19'' at some point
it was ridiculously big
could never get fully used to the keyboard
 
you can fit at least three hamsters in that beast
 
Wes
i need a full blown keyboard otherwise $frustration++
 
devops threatened to replace our machines with clockworkpi.com
 
YXBA buttons though:)
 
Wes
reminds me something... is there a way to know how many keyboard buttons i can press at the same time and still work? i have an old logitech keyboard on my tv and i realized i can't play gta online on it, because if i press like more than 4 buttons at once, it doesn't work
 
12:50 AM
@Tiffany looks like an etch-a-sketch
 
Wes
whereas my big ass corsair seem to have no limit to the keys i can press at the same time (although, i have no way to test it, except the game)
 
or a TI-92
 
86
Q: How do I remove the limit on PC keyboard button presses?

ChristianWhenever I play a PC game with the directional keys, I can only press two buttons at a time. For instance if I am playing a shooter like R-Type, I cannot hold down the fire button while moving diagonally at the same time. The computer simply ignores the extra button press. How do I remove this...

 
@Wes there are very old programs out there that will allow you to check...this used to be a problem for multiplayer games on one computer - but maybe online will be good enough: keyboardchecker.com
 
this depends on how many buttons are on the same wire, right?
 
Wes
12:53 AM
i thought usb solved this kind of limitations
 
I think it's about manufacturing costs rather than the protocol
it needs more hardware to address each key
 
Wes
i see
 
Ubuntu 18 WSL ・ GD related ・ #80441
 
Wes
1:16 AM
does amphp's call get executed right away, until an occurrence of yield is found?
actually, i should just try that :B
 
 
2 hours later…
3:25 AM
Running maxima using exec results in segfault ・ Unknown/Other Function ・ #80442
 
 
2 hours later…
5:50 AM
@Tiffany .... are you saying you have a group of people that collectively are referred to (possibly by themselves) as "devops" ?
I can't even.
 
 
2 hours later…
8:07 AM
morns
@Stephen its more common than you might think, but all they really are is "IT Support"
 
 
4 hours later…
11:55 AM
so, neither dev nor ops. The insanity gets insaner.
are we sure they're not just this: youtube.com/watch?v=PtXtIivRRKQ
 
@Crell Small status update: The tests that are implemented so far are working. github.com/php/php-src/compare/master...iluuu1994:enums-2 There are quite a few issues that need to be ironed out.
 
12:10 PM
Hello everyone, when can we expect the final 8.0.0 Docker images to be tagged? hub.docker.com/_/… Thank you!
 
@OndřejMirtes those are nothing to do with the PHP project...think one of the composer guys builds them.
 
Isn't there work being done to add a container to php-src repo, by brzuchal I think?
 
@OndřejMirtes They are official from Docker but not PHP. There's a pull request but nobody has merged it so far. github.com/docker-library/php/pull/1090
 
But that may just be for compiling php-src
 
BTW any idea what this produces a warning if the date is parsed fine as dump shows? 3v4l.org/TGsaG
 
1:07 PM
@OndřejMirtes I assume because the year is missing
 
1:45 PM
sysvsem segfault ・ Semaphore related ・ #80443
 
2:24 PM
Happy Sunday 11ers!
@cmb I reviewed github.com/php/web-php/pull/369 and I think he's working on the changes already
 
@cmb @NikiC did vrana's doc commit get reverted?
... should just have looked at the commit history
 
cmb
2:53 PM
@Ekin thank you! I've seen several replies; can't comment on those, though.
 
@cmb yeah, I've mainly did them as suggestions as they were already meaningful. The main change I asked was keeping the indentation consistent with the other translations
and I've asked him to squash. Will probably need to ping you/someone else here once it is ready to merge
 
cmb
you can ping me when it's ready to merge; no need to squash, though, since I'll do that anyway before moving to SVN :)
 
ah cool, will do
 
 
1 hour later…
4:01 PM
What does it mean "Go update to PHP 8" here php.net/releases/8.0/en.php ?
 
It means you have to go and update to php 8?
 
Is this like a chant "Go sharks!" or something like this?
@PeeHaa No, that would be written like "Go, update to PHP 8"
 
ok it means what you think
Go sharks!
 
It's a strange button if you ask me
It looks like all other languages have "Update to PHP 8" so it's probably a typo in English version
 
4:42 PM
Wonder how many people have, I'm still waiting on the incredibly slow PHP docker images
I did move some of our production workloads over onto RC5
 
At least it's readily available in a lot of repos
 
Aye, would love to see some install metrics
 
I assume the main hold back will nobody wanting to test out broken versions :D
Maybe Remi has some stats he wants to share
 
5:13 PM
Hello everyone i just wanna ask a fave if someone can answer my question here is the link stackoverflow.com/questions/65062689/…
thank you all
 
blank filled character fields.. ・ dbase ・ #80444
 
@Dharman Let's eat grandpa.
\o
 
@User99 I have answered your question. Why do you keep reposting it. I think this is the fifth time you have reposted the same question. What was wrong with my solution? Please, do not abuse Stack Overflow
 
This is new question sorry if i keep asking i'm confuse on sql haha sorry
 
5:29 PM
@Dharman it's an instruction to go update, it's less passive
 
@User99 If you are new to PHP and SQL then I don't think you should be asking questions on Stack Overflow. Please take some online courses and read some tutorials.
 
Thank you very much!
 
You don't seem to listen to anyone's advice. We told you to enable error reporting instead of manually checking each line and you haven't done that.
 
@Tiffany No you are wrong
 
@Stephen no, not their actual name, but easier to just call them devops
 
5:31 PM
It.Is. Go sharks!
 
You keep putting XAMPP in the tags even though the question has nothing to do with it
Also, your titles are terrible. Title should describe the problem so that other people can find it. Don't tell us that you have a problem or a question, this is why you are presumably here already.
 
@Dharman My mistake, thanks i'll take you advice!
 
do you need help finding tutorials or something?
 
Sorry, about the confusing comment under your question, I posted under a wrong question
If you are only starting to learn PHP then you should learn PDO instead of mysqli. PDO is much easier and more suitable for beginners. Start here phpdelusions.net/pdo
 
@Dharman thanks again!
 
Do we increase reference counts on objects when passing them to another function/method?
Not at a place I can quickly check.
 
I am removing PHP 5 specific information from the manual, just to confirm is it really ok to remove it all?
 
yes
but
submit PRs to github
at least... I think that's still the preferred current method, @cmb, thoughts?
 
@Dharman Is there a backup for that? I know its wrong, but there are still way way too many people still stuck on php 5. I think it should be moved but not removed
 
there's an archive, similar to how there was before with PHP 4
question regarding git and squashing. While doing an interactive rebase, I see "squash <commit> = use commit, but meld into previous commit." To clarify, if I want to meld older commits into a newer commit, would I put squash next to the old commits I want to meld, and leave pick next to the last commit I wish to meld into?
 
it does help, but it's awkward because the newest commit is at the bottom, so I would be squashing newer commits into an older commit, and rewording the commit message of an older commit, which feels wrong
huh, it doesn't matter, it'll prompt me to change the commit message anyway in the next screen, and the hash is changed as well
 
No, you use pick for the first one, and squash for the subsequent ones
You can only squash newer commit into old ones.
 
the newest commit is at the bottom though
I'm messing around with a throwaway repo to get a better understanding of how to use this correctly, so I'm making random junk commits in a repo
but the git book already explains this, so I should've just read further 😶
> Notice the reverse order. The interactive rebase gives you a script that it’s going to run. It will start at the commit you specify on the command line (HEAD~3) and replay the changes introduced in each of these commits from top to bottom. It lists the oldest at the top, rather than the newest, because that’s the first one it will replay.
 
6:44 PM
@Dharman @Tiffany I believe that's correct, yes.
 
@Crell submitting PRs to github?
instead of making the changes directly in SVN?
 
Yes. And expunging PHP 5 from the docs is a-ok.
 
expunging PHP 5 I know is okay, but not sure if the changes should only be done by PR for now, or if it's okay to remove directly from SVN, since 8 is out
 
Ok, then what should I do about the changelog here? php.net/manual/en/ref.pdo-mysql.php
 
IMO, everything should have a PR so someone can review it first. I realize not everyone may agree with me on that position, of course. But I don't trust a single pair of eyes.
 
6:47 PM
Just remove the items or the whole table?
 
I would say the whole table, but that's my opinion
 
If you're going to remove the items, no sense leaving an empty table behind.
 
exactly that
 
morning / evening
 
7:05 PM
afternoon!
 
Hi @Crell
 
:waves:
gist.github.com/Crell/e0e3f6a1b162c056f87005518bd64b1d - A quick brainstorm for feedback. Thoughts?
 
7:24 PM
@Crell Should we really allow any property to be changed though? Or should this rather be an opt-in thing?
 
@Crell That would have prevented the massive fuckup from vrana which made a massive pain for translators
 
When making a new object, I don't see a reason to forbid changes. And if the property is private/protected then you could only reset it via with internally anyway, so you're no worse off than you are today.
@Girgias I have made enough dumb typos of my own over the years^W months^W days that I don't trust me or anyone else to get something right the first time. :-) At Platform, even a spelling fix to our docs goes through a PR and someone else merges it. (Though we don't have the svn dance, so it's easier for someone else to do the merge.)
 
@Crell It depends. What's the main motivation for initonly? I'd argue it's to allow exposing properties publicly without having to worry about them getting mutated. But if we allow mutation anyway that kinda goes out the window.
 
@Crell Tbh even if it would be under git, there is still a dance, as GH is just a mirror
An easier one to apply but still one, which I think is why the mentality here is if you got it approved, merge it yourself
 
Yeah I know it's not "mutation". But you could still allow creating objects in a potentially invalid state that a library might not want to have to deal with. Because at that point any public initonly property could be anything.
 
7:28 PM
@IluTov But we're not allowing mutation. We're allowing "give me a new object with this change." That's the whole point of with-er methods.
Hm. Have an example?
 
You could of course hide that value behind a method. But even modifying lhs/rhs would make the tmp value invalid.
 
@IluTov That looks like an excellent argument for asymmetric visibility. :-)
But yeah, it only works when the properties could reasonably be modified independently of each other. if not, you need to use methods like we do today.
 
@Crell To me initonly for the most part should be like asymmetric visibility public read write nowhere ^^
 
It has to be writeable in the constructor and deserialization at least, or the object doesn't even work. And that then makes with-er methods infeasible, which makes it a no-go in my mind.
The alternative would be to force with-ing to go through the constructor again. Something like:

$p2 = new Point(y: 5, ..$p1); // That's what Rust does.
But then that only works for properties that are also constructor args.
 
2 days ago, by Mate Kocsis
@Danack I'll try to experiment with unlocking during __clone() as soon as I have some rest and my personal life calms down. :) And I actually started implementing the "with" stuff , although I haven't gone too far with it yet.
 
7:33 PM
@MateKocsis Sounds like a conversation for you to join? :-)
 
"and my personal life calms down. :)"
they sound busy.
Aug 5 at 8:32, by Danack
I know you suggested a workaround of supporting 'withs' like:
tbh, I don't like with at least in part because it's new and different, and I fear change. But also, it feels like you're trying to work around 'unlocking' the immutability of te objects properties on clone, for aesthetic reasons, and then keep suggesting 'with' as better. But I'm still not hearing an answer to the question of "what's wrong with unlocking the mutability during a clone call?"
aka inventing a new syntax, when there is a much simpler alternative, smells like the wrong thing.
 
I mean I think making __clone basically similar to __construct ni the sense that you're creating a new object and any immutability rules do not apply would make the most sense to me IMHO
 
How do you pass in the new data to modify the object with when cloning? clone() takes no parameters.
 
The fundamental question is, do we actually need clone for objects with initonly? For value objects it's probably going to be trivial to just create a new object with new. For service objects allowing to change any public property seems like a bad idea to me.
 
@Crell Make it variadic
__construct already has special rules, just make __clone() a bit special it's an engine hook anyway
 
7:39 PM
@IluTov "Just use the constructor" fails as soon as you have more than ~2 properties on your value object.
@Girgias As properties, or parameters?
 
@Crell I don't get what you mean?
 
I want to avoid the boilerplate of foreach ($args as $k => $v) { $new->$k = $v; } in every value object if possible.
I had a gist around here somewhere with that but can't find it now.
 
Again IMHO __clone() is in some sense a constructor maybe work somethign on top of constructor promotion?
just throwing out ideas
 
thinking.gif
Noodling with that; I can't figure out a way to whitelist optional args.
 
@Danack Allowing mutation during clone seems like a reasonable approach to me. Because that will happen inside the class and be in the control of its author.
 
7:51 PM
My concern is __clone() turning into another __set.
 
@IluTov yep. So in a single place, rather than distributed.
> This is super clumsy.
Fits in nicely with the language.
 
That PHP is clumsy in places doesn't mean it should remain so. :-)
 
8:04 PM
Actually, thinking about it, allowing mutation in clone doesn't help whatsoever (at least for value objects) gist.github.com/iluuu1994/ac7eb748d37f1f0eb1a768db19915edb
 
@IluTov It would only work if clone() took parameters, as in my last gist. But then in either case you're forcing an awful lot of data through a single hole and pushing lots of boilerplate to user-space.
My thinking was that with would be used mostly internally in single-expression with-er methods.
 
At this point I'm not sure it's even worth it. Maybe we should just focus on accessors with asymmetric visibility. I'd say that's enough even for ADTs.
 
@IluTov it helps for the situation where the new property is generated inside the clone....but yeah, if clone takes parameters, and magic occurs... gist.github.com/Danack/f10e46b544c5ace1652eb669fa9d292e
 
Asymmetric visibility would be good, but it wouldn't make with methods any easier. It just wouldn't block them the way initonly would on its own.
 
@Crell It wouldn't make them automatic but it would make them possible.
 
8:12 PM
That's what I envisioned with doing. :-) But you're right that property dependencies create problems.
One could argue that they should be materialized properties behind methods anyway, so storing sum or area is Doing It Wrong(tm).
 
8:51 PM
enum Foo {
    case Bar implements Baz { ... }
}
@Crell Would you say implements on a case per case basis is necessary? If we allow diverging methods it would probably make sense?
 
I wouldn't think so? On the Enum it makes sense, but per Case I'm not clear on the use case.
 
@Crell Well, same as having methods that aren't on any other enum cases. I was always kind of uncertain about that as a whole but if we do allow it interfaces probably also make sense (if you want to enforce/check their signature).
 
9:11 PM
Is it easier with or without them?
Implementation wise, I mean. I don't feel strongly enough about it either way to insist on one if the other is easier.
 
cmb
9:38 PM
@Dharman you may want to check whether the info contained in changelog entries has been propagated into the rest of the documentation. In this case e.g. whether it's documented somewhere else that OpenSSL is supported.
 
I'll check that tomorrow
 
10:25 PM
@Crell Implementation-wise it doesn't really matter too much either way.
 
@Wes I was watching a movie where the setting was Rome, Italy. The girl was a tour guide and she was riding a Vespa and did not signal. The guy said he did not understand why all of those people did not signal and she said in Italy, using a turn signal in Italy was considered a sign of weakness. I love learning about culture, so I was curious if this was true.
 
Wes
mostly bs, but surely there's people that believe that
i know some places where if you don't signal they chase you, honk, very aggressively
they don't usually hurt you :B unless you really pissed them off, they just want to teach you a lesson :B
 
Wes
what's the verb?
isn't it honk? :B
 
@Wes It is, but geese also honk.
 
Wes
10:41 PM
:B
sorry for ruining the joke, it was nice :B
 

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