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22:02
Soooo... just pulling in a convo from the ML (@TheodoreBrown) but what do you recon the chances are of us holding a full vote to deprecate # comments before PHP 8.0 if / when #[ ... ] wins?
This would clearly need the approval of our benevolent oveRMlords
phpdbg next command doesn't step over as documented ・ phpdbg ・ #80006
@MarkR it doesn't actually make any odds to when we remove something whether it's deprecated in 8.0 or 8.1, because either way it can be removed in 9.0 and no earler
there's some logic in tying the two things together, but not really worth rushing yet another vote for IMO
@IMSoP Normally yes, although in this specific case I wouldn't bet the house on it.
@MarkR bet the house on what?
22:10
@MarkR I don't think deprecation will happen in 8.0, for reasons that Rowan just listed (sorry for double ping)
With everything that's happened regarding attributes so far, and with #[ looking to win out by a large margin, I wouldn't bet my house on not throwing out the usual rule book for #
We're past feature freeze
It doesn't make much sense
@MarkR I was actually thinking about introducing some preprocessor stuff like #if PHP_VERSION > 8.1. That would make # as comments usable in even less cases and thus it would probably make sense to remove them completely. Anyway, the ship for 8.0 has sailed.
It's waaaay too late
22:12
If we deprecate it in 8.0 or 8.1 the end result is the same, it will still be there for a full major release cycle
@MarkR none of what's happened has broken our versioning policy, because nothing's actually been released yet
Can't we just bump majors every year? :D
And we already pushed back the RFC deprecating stuff in PHP 8.0 to 8.1 because it doesn't matter
It's the Firefox approach.
@IluTov FF does do 4 releases per year tho
22:13
@IluTov s/Firefox/Chrome/
@Girgias Haha fine by me xD
Oh dear
Like I said, after everything that's happened so far, 15 votes in, I wouldn't bet my house on it.
I mean I personally didn't agree on any of the syntax revotes
Is there any way to find wiki pages we've authored but aren't listed?
22:15
I agree the voting's been a shitshow, but so far, it hasn't actually affected users in any way
Yeah, that's also true
And I thought Short Tags would be the biggest RFC mess for a while, that didn't last long :')
Well if you do insist on designing massive security vulnerabilities into your RFC :P
This does give me an idea though for prepared statement emulation for pdo_mysql... introduce it as a deprecation (if I can provide a convincing enough argument) in 8.1, then change the default to off in 9
Deprecation is probably not the word I'm looking for...
No... Nevermind, bad idea altogether. Ignore me.
oh, that reminds me, I need to update my graph of mailing list posts per week, to see how the attributes kerfuffle compares to scalar type hints
@MarkR something something, no feedback on implementation, something something surprised it passed something something outrage
22:23
@MarkR I don't think deprecation could realistically happen in 8.0. But if #[] does win, it seems like hash comments should be deprecated at some point to avoid long-term confusion.
@Girgias lol.... yeah I get it. The process failed badly on it, which is a shame as I really wanted <? gone.
@TheodoreBrown We have no minimum on the time between majors though was my understanding? So sooner = definitely better.
in practice, we have a major every 5 years
something needs to be done about the process IMHO we had 2 fuck-ups in the span of 18months and both dragged stuff out for 4 month which leads to fatigue
everyone acts like the time between majors is some great mystery; it's a) entirely in our control, and b) historically very consistent
PHP's rules are like parliament, as long as you can win a vote you're free to ignore the rules.
22:30
so, are you saying you want us to break the rules and remove # comments early?
Depends how it goes once it gets into the wild really. Personally if PHP were a commercial project I managed, and I added something like #[ into it, # wouldn't even survive into the major release.
that sounds like a recipe for people not upgrading to me
It's PHP, the people who will upgrade will run a script over their source and have their upgrade done in 10 seconds, those who aren't going to upgrade aren't going to do so until they're forced to 5 to 10 years later.
right, but during those 5 to 10 years, they've not been writing new code using the deprecated parts
That seems awfully optimistic.
22:37
There is no need to jump the gun on # comments
having users "run a script over their source" feels awfully optimistic
as I've pointed out at least once on-list, most of the code people run is not theirs
I don't know how hard it will be to go from 7.x to 8.x but at least we're not getting rid of a DB extension which a bazillion people used to handle DB queries
I ran composer info | wc -l the other day; about 100 packages, maybe 5 of which are internal
There are breakage for sure, but for the most part relatively clean code should have a smooth upgrade, and I think it will catch legit bugs in others
Deprecating or removing # comments brings us nothing
@IMSoP I expect eventually Nikita will follow-through on his idea of a PHP-official migration script, and I suspect that it would probably end up as a default composer post pull hook shortly thereafter
22:40
@MarkR hahahahahahahah; nope
official, sure
running implicitly with zero side-effects so that you don't have to commit the results back or test them in any way? pipe dream
Where did the idea of not testing them come into it?
"default composer post pull hook"
Well I'm assuming you don't write your entire codebase without ever installing your dependencies.
sure, but I don't test those libraries
I trust their maintainers not to tag them while their unit tests are failing
if you have a hook that changes other people's code when you install it, you can no longer make any assumptions about it working as advertised; you've basically got an untested fork
Tell that to NPM when 95% of code gets mutated via uglify / terser
22:46
add that to my list of reasons to hate node and npm
@MarkR I interviewed for a place that was upgrading their codebase for 7.4 from 7.3 manually. They don't use a framework, they use very few composer libraries.
the other problem is that an automated upgrade tool would only be useful for the breaking changes that we don't really need to make anyway; if a # comment is unambiguously a comment, we can just carry on treating it as a comment
@Tiffany They would presumably have an even easier time then Tiffany
@IMSoP The point was that # is (soon) no longer unambiguously a comment
but then an automated tool can't help
because it has no more information to solve the ambiguity than the real parser
I really wish I had the opportunity to run a tool like Rector on the 5.3 codebase I worked on, but that codebase was so complicated
22:49
Actually it has one more piece of information - The target version from composer.
the parser knows the target version - itself
what it needs to know is what version the code was written for
wiki.php.net/rfc/platform_requirement_declares This was something I was working on 6 months ago but Nikita suggested I shelf it in favour of editions (which IMHO would have made Attributes a whole lot easier)
it needs something saying "this code has no attributes, if you spot any, they're actually comments"
I mean if we provide a tool I suppose you would provide it with the base version and target version (default assume target is current php binary)
@Girgias absolutely; an official manual tool for that would be great
but I'm still not going to run it over my vendor folder, because I don't know that base version for every package, and I don't want to maintain the resulting forks
22:54
Right, I wouldn't do that either lol
@MarkR that's mostly useful for minimum versions; maximum versions are trickier, because you don't want to have to keep changing them all the time; but it's maximum version we need in this case
@IMSoP Valid point.
anyway, I should be in bed
ditto
And I'm wondering if I have a freebie pizza I can order for dinner :P
22:57
What are you guys on about, it's not even 3am yet D:
\o/ and I do
I'll need to be awake at 8AM on Monday and my sleep schedule is terrible
I showed the other lead dev my gitlab analytics chart for my commit times today... eugh that hurt
g'night all! sleep tight, don't let the attributes bite!
G'nite ol chap
23:18
@GabrielCaruso You want to fix your votes:
Voter 'carusogabriel' has duplicates (@[Attr] — @[Attr] — @:Attr — <<>> — @@Attr — @{Attr}), rejecting
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