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12:32 AM
re: attributes, if we use #[ or << we can presumably add #[Multiple,Attributes,At,Once] right? Which we couldn't do with @@
I know it's in the future scope of the original RFC, but I'm not sure how it would even be possible with @@
 
 
2 hours later…
2:20 AM
What C IDE do you guys use?
 
CLion sometimes, though it doesn't work all that great with php-src.
 
Ever use code block
 
I haven't tried it, no. I think I used to use Visual Studio Community for C# and stuff, which I believe supports C.
...I wish I had enough rep to approve my own edits :/
 
Your own edits in this chat?
 
no, in SO main
...why would I need rep to approve my own edits in chat...?
 
2:26 AM
Some ppl here manage all the chat stuff.
Are able to create rooms and stuff.
 
creating a room doesn't require that much rep...
room owners can move messages from one room to another (though, I'm not sure if they need to be owners of both rooms), and they can view deleted messages
 
ahh that's how that works.
 
3:12 AM
hey guys , i am trying to build application similar to trackingcourier.io but having hard time finding the vendor for api
does anybody know any good api providers ?
 
3:45 AM
I have a question about memory usage and garbage collecting in PHP if anyone has an idea how all that works
If I have a script like this pastebin.com/raw/MM0p8y2Q, will the $book effectively be garbage collected every time a new value is yielded? If so, does it keep the $book from the last loop still in memory as it hasn't yielded a new value for it? And lastly, would the old $book value in the modifyBook method be ready to be garbage collected as soon as the method is done?
 
3:57 AM
@Alesana random question, what do you use for a dev environment? just curious...
 
4:43 AM
@Tiffany I use homestead
We used Docker at my work but it was incredibly slow
I switched to Homestead (vagrant) and on one of the apps we have I saw response times almost up to 10x as fast
 
4:58 AM
@Alesana yay Homestead <3
 
@joepferguson Do you use it too?
 
Yep! I also maintain the project :D
 
 
1 hour later…
6:09 AM
@nikic Is it expected that PHP-Parser does work on PHP 8? Getting Undefined array key 314 in /home/runner/work/phpunit/phpunit/vendor/nikic/php-parser/lib/PhpParser/Lexer.php:284 notices with PHPUnit 9.3 on GitHub Actions: github.com/sebastianbergmann/phpunit/runs/901422207
I thought PHP-Parser also hat its own lexer, but Lexer seems to use token_get_all(). So this might be related to github.com/php/php-src/commit/…
Yes, it is. Reverted the commit and the notice is gone.
 
6:34 AM
s/hat/had/, obviously.
 
7:26 AM
@SebastianBergmann Yeah, this is going to need some emulation in PHP-Parser
 
8:20 AM
@Tiffany @SalOrozco Yeah, CLion sucks ass with large projects. VSCode works ok-ish. Not all things are great but auto-completion and jump to definition are pretty ok. There are also plugins for gdb/lldb for debugging.
 
8:59 AM
Building PHP on Silicon (ARM) Mac ・ *General Issues ・ #79887
 
@NikiC Thanks. Do you know when you'll get to this? Unfortunately I do not have time right now to familiarize myself with PHP-Parser's codebase to give it a try myself :-/ Would love to help.
 
@joepferguson I have a strong suspicion that setting up open source projects as charities is a bad idea. It's just far too complicated, (both legally and morally), and probably won't affect how many companies pay for open source anyway.
 
@SebastianBergmann I guess I will work on it now. btw is there a way to avoid the "match" errors with phpunit?
It's a bit annoying to test things if a lot of tests fail
This is not gonna be fun :/
 
9:23 AM
Hi, hope everyone safe.
 
morns
 
Sometimes when my PHP web application got stuck in any request then until finish the request it's preventing other's page to load, may I ask you the solution for it? even others page in different tab
 
@NikiC PHPUnit 9.3 (current master) does not have the problem.
 
Incorrect execution with JIT enabled ・ Scripting Engine problem ・ #79888
 
9:40 AM
@GabrielCaruso Yes I did a while ago. Coincidentally, I've just received a mail from Stripe that they're coming to Hungary soon, so maybe it's just a question of a few months or years, and GitHub Sponsors will be available for me ^^ :D
 
9:59 AM
oh ffs the tax form thing didn't validate properly on GH's end
 
@JaforIqbal using fpm? You should have a look at the number of workers. Otherwise it might just be some external resource that's busy, such as your database-server
 
!!rfcs
 
GH Sponsors doesn't do tax right though. No idea what they do about VAT, no invoices, my accountant is not happy.
 
@Derick I imagine, also I'm very confused about filling in this W-8BEN form
 
10:14 AM
Does anyone have a link to the common rules for how to handle a subscription when a payment fails repeatedly? My understanding is that companies are not supposed to continually attempt payment if previous months payments have failed.
But googling for that all lead to "your credit score may be affected" results.
 
10:33 AM
@SebastianBergmann PHP-Parser should work now
 
11:06 AM
@Danack what country? What should prevent them from getting payment unless you explicitly canceled your subscription?
 
11:20 AM
@NikiC Thanks! I'll have a look shortly.
 
@Sjon in the UK. It's possible I'm thinking of SMS billing, where retrying payments continually may eventually end up billing a different person when an inactive phone number is recycled. But also, not giving notifications of payment failure, and so not reminding someone that something needs to be cancelled, and instead allowing a bill to build up, is at the very least somewhat morally dubious.
 
@Danack hmm, not sure I agree. I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that in the Netherlands. Assuming the subscribed service is being delivered, I'm not sure why a payment failure should result in cancellation. For example, if your Spotify payment fails, should they remove your account?
 
11:36 AM
@Sjon at some point yes. But they should first give you notifications that payments are failing close in time to when they fail, not after six months during which there have been no successful payments.
although a server of mine has probably been pushing data to them, I haven't logged into the site to read that data, and had the impression I was still on the free plan.
 
@NikiC Do we also wanna merge nullsafe in advance? 50:2 so it's pretty safe to say it's going to be accepted.
 
@Girgias Yeah, and I needed a corporate version of it
 
12:07 PM
@IluTov sure
 
12:59 PM
@NikiC Ok cool :) I'll add the missing tests tonight and merge it afterwards.
 
1:19 PM
@NikiC Are you actually willing to change the < / > semantics on strings which are non-zero when casted to int as discussed yesterday? Shall I raise the points on internals or anything?
 
Anyone know of a good tutorial on sending JSON via jquery Ajax and returning JSON results?
 
JQuery.Ajax is a good abstraction
 
I have found ways to send JSON, and ways to receive JSON via Ajax jQuery... I just can't seem to figure out how to put them together. I am very new to jQuery... so probably just don't "get" it yet.
Ooh Ooh I just found another way... jQuery getJSON() Method reading up now
nope wont do it.
 
1:49 PM
using fpm it is possible to do: print "<html>"; if (!headers_sent())die(http_response_code(304)); and the correct response code will be send. Can the <html> still be removed?
btw - curl will log Excess found: excess and nginx will crash if you do this
 
2:46 PM
I.
Hate.
Badly.
Written.
Software.
 
@Crell So basically all software?
 
This
 
Basically. But especially software that gets the basics wrong, when it has absolutely no justification for doing so.
 
@IluTov yes?
 
@SalOrozco What is this in reference to? The IDE?
 
2:54 PM
yeah
 
I'm using Visual Studio Code at the moment. It's the only half-decent thing on macOS.
For C that is, for PHP PHPStorm.
 
I tried the Code block for C. I will probably take a look at Visual Studio today.
 
@SalOrozco Note that Visual Studio != Visual Studio Code
MS is bad at naming :P
 
@Sjon maybe with ob_clean?
 
So not the Microsoft one. I see there are 2 websites.
 
3:03 PM
@SalOrozco They're both from Microsoft, but they have to different products with almost the same name. This is the one I'm using: code.visualstudio.com
 
Thanks
Whatever happened to Patrick hasn't seen here in here.
 
3:24 PM
Unsure, he hasn't been active on any thing online social media in a year at least. It makes me worried about his well-being. That is to say, I hope he's doing alright.
 
Yeah, good guy. I hope he is ok.
 
Dust off and nuke the Attributes RFC from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
 
@Danack Exactly, which is why OSS that wants to go down the nonprofit* (not charity, yes there's a difference, especially to the IRS!) You can get many different 501c* designations for "foundations", "charities", "nonprofits", but it all comes down to the mission statement/charter of the organization.
The difference to me is "A charity is someone out there soliciting donations to survive", which is what OSMI does, but not Joindin. The JI nonprofit status was a way to formally govern the project and potentially be able to attract corporate support/funding.
 
@Crell It's ALL badly written software. Software developers are unworthy of the title "Engineer"
 
Sara lives!
 
3:38 PM
I can't have you people discussing things behind my back.
 
But if we discussed them in front of your face, you'd know about it.
 
Especially whilst in such an irascible mood.
 
@Sara I had a thought, but I don't feel comfortable sending it on the mailing list just yet (I'm shy). What if we reverted back to the << ... >> syntax for 8.0, but gave the opportunity for @@ in 8.1? That would give time to find any other potential issues with @@ and find resolutions.
 
@Sara Oh please no, I don't think 10 years can solve syntax disagreements :(
 
well, @@ or #[ ... ]... whichever is the preference ...
 
3:39 PM
@Tiffany That would arguably be a correct thing to do, but changing syntaxes like that is dubious. It really is better to just wait if we're unsure.
 
wait on adding attributes, or wait on syntax change?
 
Once something is "public", it's out there. It's done. Changing it becomes REALLY hard.
Wait on adding at all.
 
that's fair :/
 
I mean, that's just my personal vote. I'm not the final say on it.
 
it seems like this may become true... chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/11?m=50002729#50002729
 
3:42 PM
From a release point of view, the original RFC passed, and the change syntax passed. Ergo merging <<..>>, @@..., or #[...] would all be defensible and valid positions at this point.
 
@Sara not sure the syntax question will be resolved with time
 
IMO it's just a question on if there's enough concern that it's worth a re-vote. It's effectively what we did with the second vote for short opening tags. The first vote passed, we found issues, discontent grew, we voted again, the outcome changed.
 
@beberlei not by 8.1?
 
Its a subjective thing now, 3 contenders and you are poised to end up with unhappy people
 
@Sara So let's vote on whether to vote for syntax or vote to delay :D
 
3:43 PM
@beberlei It was solved by the syntax alternative vote. The only reason it's up for discussion again is because of technical issues. We can agree those technical issues are insurmountable, then decide if we need to revote (possibly with new options) at that point.
 
@IluTov voteception now?
 
@beberlei Which again feels like a vote for delay. I'd rather be unhappy by waiting than unhappy by having a syntax I don't like AND which doesn't work.
 
From a PR standpoint, attributes have, I think, become the headline feature of 8.0
 
The problem is the temporal component, if the synatx problems were known before #[] would have won. But accidently the problems are now fixed by unrelated RFC
 
hypothetically, we go with @@ for 8.0, but other issues are found with @@ post-release, is it possible to change the syntax for 8.1, or will that be harder to do post-release/implementation? BC breaks and all that...
 
3:45 PM
@IluTov There's not a formal rule for it, but I feel like an implementation deferral can be done without a 2-week vote.
 
@Sara There will always be some people (probably a large amount of people) unhappy with the syntax. Syntax shouldn't hold an otherwise perfectly good RFC back...
 
It hasn't been shown that there are any technical issues with the current implementation.
 
@beberlei Maybe. Maybe there would have been a lot more votes against changing the syntax.
 
@Tiffany Realistically we're looking at at least 2 major versions to remove @@ so 10 years.
 
D:
 
3:45 PM
@Tiffany Honestly, that seems like that worst timeline.
@TheodoreBrown That's my principle objection. Yes.
 
but there has been one technical issue that happened to be fixed by another RFC...
 
@IluTov The problem is that the status of the RFC is in doubt. It might NOT be perfectly good.
 
I am pretty sure with namespaces tokens now, the @@ will win again
 
granted a lot of this is based on "what-ifs" on unknowns, but it has the potential to be a ghost that haunts the language for quite a while
 
Personally, I'd be down for a 1-week period vote: "Proceed with @@ or defer to 8.1"?
But crackers, then people will argue about 2/3 or 50:50....
 
3:48 PM
Merge @@ and vote on reverting it until 8.1 simple yes/no 2/3
 
Are we really sure about @@?
 
/me goes to read the bylaws and see if I can just veto the shirt out of this as an RM.
 
@beberlei ...I'm not, but I'm biased...
 
@beberlei At THIS moment, @@ is the official syntax based on votes.
 
I mean as a vote question :)
 
3:49 PM
Which is why my vote is for deferral.
 
But you voted for @@ ;)
 
I know.
 
would deferral be for the entire implementation? (sorry if that's a silly question :S)
 
It's possible to not really care what the outcome is, only that the outcome be well considered.
@Tiffany Yes.
 
Sara: I think as RMs, you can decide to back it out, or to allow votes and resulting implementation to go past deadline.
 
3:50 PM
If we defer, then there will be more syntax bikeshedding for the next year... We already had a clear vote outcome to decide the syntax.
 
@TheodoreBrown a vote on incomplete information... that's the problem
 
@Crell This implementation is meaty enough that going past FF is not-preferred.
 
Personally I don't see what deferring to 8.1 buys us. What is clear is that anything with a closing tag offers cleaner long term options, not that I'm suggesting anything is insurmountable, but if we wanted something like #[optional classname()] ... I don't even know how we'd do such a thing with @@ syntax @@optional(classname)?
 
Personally I'd rather keep attributes in and let the timeline slide so we can suss out the issues than back it out, just from a PR perspective. (And because I want to use attributes, whatever the syntax.)
But the difference between the various syntaxes isn't as meaty, is it?
 
@TheodoreBrown Agreed except for the fact that new information has come to light. And we should take pause and consider that information.
I made a throwaway joke about "Remoaning", but the comparison IS apt.
 
3:51 PM
@TheodoreBrown I agree. I think there will be complete silence for a looong time because everybody is sick of the discussion now, and then it will rekindle just before the 8.1 feature freeze.
 
@Sara you're better at articulating my thoughts :D
 
I haf a perfextly fine RFC ready at 95% support (cry) ;)
 
In my mind the only question is whether the concern about @@ having more hidden landmines is enough to switch to #[]
 
@Crell The impression I get is that the answer to that question is "No", which would mean keeping @@ and moving forward.
 
@Crell Even though I'd prefer #[] I think the concerns are largely overblown.
 
3:53 PM
the issues with bitwise operations for << ... >>, are those issues worse than the issues with #[ comments?
 
@Tiffany No, they're not.
 
And that question, I feel, could be given an extra week or two past FF without causing too much issue. Though that's Sara's call.
 
On 8.1 we get @@[...] to support nested attr :D
 
either #[ or << gets us the ability to inline as much different syntax as we please, with little to no prospect of it getting caught up in the token stream for other parts. Personally I think if we use #[ it'll immediately become community-standard to use them on new lines and the whole thing will be backported
 
Honestly calling out the shift ops on << >> is just to saying "everything is awful", but they don't have practical issues anyone can see.
@MarkR I do agree about the benefit of having a closing delimiter, BUT that was a known feature during the vote. Bringing it up again now doesn't actually invalidate the prior vote.
 
3:55 PM
Yes people already voted against closing delim
 
Part of (some people's) reasoning for @@ was it's terseness.
@Tiffany I've been arguing with this chuckleheads for nearly 2 decades. :)
 
The lack of a closing delimiter wasn't known at the time to have implementation problems. Would that have changed the outcome, I have no idea.
 
@Sara If a closing delimiter was present, it wouldn't have been blocked by the need for the other RFC. It shined a big spotlight on the consequences by providing an immediate example, and here we are.
 
@Sara Honestly, I think we should stick with @@. It's not my favorite choice but unless the people who voted for @@ say they want a revote because they changed their mind the outcome won't be any different.
 
@MarkR Okay. That's a fair point.
 
3:57 PM
Not now or in a year.
 
@IluTov I think you're right :/
 
Again, I'm willing to hold a 1-week vote on how we move forward from here. Even present the syntax choice over again, but I think that would be INCREDIBLY short-sighted and show panic more than planning.
 
Crazy idea you're welcome to ignore: Could newline be interpreted as the closing delimiter for @@? Would that give us a loophole that avoids a revote but resolves the "don't know where the end is" problem?
 
@Crell Hisses in javascript.
4
 
I said it was a crazy idea...
 
3:59 PM
@Crell I was about to reply, but "Hisses in javascript" covers it.
 
@Crell no
 
(And shouldn't you be hissing in Python.)
 
hands Sara a spoon
 
I'd say looking at the mailing lists, and here, the majority of people actively involved in the discussion have concerns. Unfortunately it's the way of PHP's voting that you don't have to actually have to discuss or debate prior to casting a vote, so yes, @@ could technically win... but as we've already demonstrated @@ should never have been allowed on the vote in the first place, and that opening and closing tags are provably superior...
 
4:03 PM
...I need to finish watching the Good Place off-topic, nevermind
 
@MarkR The long-standing PHP issue of "maintainers and voters are different people".
 
Yarp.
 
also...
yesterday, by cmb
If the outcome of any RFC is bad, it appears our RFC process is fundamentally flawed – if so, this should be fixed ASAP.
 
"@@ should never have been allowed on the vote in the first place, and that opening and closing tags are provably superior"
Objection! Argumentative!
@Tiffany That is, in fact, where my minced oaths are coming from. :D
 
@Sara I know :P which is what reminded me I should finish watching it because the censored words are one of my favorite bits
 
4:06 PM
Holy mother forking shirt balls...
2
 
I don't agree that a closing tag is provably superior - this is ultimately subjective. @@ has a smaller BC break, it's less verbose, and more in line with majority of C family languages. And it's what most voters chose. Yes, there was a technical issue with namespaced names, but it has been resolved now.
 
Prior to the namespace RFC they broke the language spec without mentioning it in the RFC (would not have been allowed), opening and closing tags being superior is demonstrable by the simplification of wanting to put additional keywords in / around them, and easily providing for grouping.

Because to do those things without making it horrendous we're going to need to wrap it in ( ) or [] anyway e.g. @@(private AnnotationClass)
 
@Sara It is superior within the realm of future syntax freedom. For nothing else.
 
So let's use open/closing tags..... starting from 8.1
 
cmb
@Derick, no announcement for 7.4.9RC1?
 
4:18 PM
@Sara eh, that seems like the least sensible option?
 
@NikiC Taking one's time to thoroughly consider the implications of a change to the language that can never be undone is insensible?
 
@TheodoreBrown There are. It requires that another RFC needs to be passed first, which hasn't happened yet.
 
If that question is a silly syntax choice? Yes.
 
@Crell primary reason I generally abstain from voting... in hindsight, I should've abstained from voting on this one, but I figured it might be enough of a gray area that I wouldn't judge myself ... but I was proven wrong :D
 
@cmb I forgot - had other things to do today :-S
 
4:20 PM
Which syntax is silly? <<..>> or #[..] ?
 
Neither ;-þ
 
Or is it @@.. still?
 
Before I go posting that example on the MLs, can anyone conceive of a cleaner way of adding keywords around @@ without making it a hellscape? In that particular example I'm thinking of if we wanted to allow a scope label such private / protected annotations, or a keyword that would require validation-on-encounter.
 
@TheodoreBrown Nothing uses @@...
 
@Sara The seriousness attributed to the question is silly, not the specific syntax :)
I think we will be well-served with any of the options
 
4:21 PM
@Derick The current implementation has already been rebased on top of the fix, since that RFC will almost certainly be accepted.
 
If we're well served with any of the options, then the course is clear of keeping @@.
And honestly, I respect your position on the suitability of @@ more than the rest of these chuckleheads.
 
@MarkR Do any other languages use keywords on attributes like that?
 
now that we have namespaced tokens, @@ is not bad anymore. it does have some downsides, but so do #[] and <<>>
 
Then why are we arguing?
 
4:24 PM
we're sore losers
 
Because @@ is a terrible syntax that nobody uses.
 
@Sara I think at this point this is just a procedural question. Information was omitted from the RFC that might have changed the voting outcome (e.g., I would have voted differently, due to a mild change in preferences). And given that this is such a touchy question, people are being a bit disagreeable on that point :)
 
@TheodoreBrown Not relevant. It's PHP internals we can add whatever language features we like, including the ability to tag annotations as having a visibility scope, grouping, or setting pre-validation flags.
 
And considering the amount of public and private support I have, especially from people that know one or two things about maintaining compat... I'd say @@ is not generally well liked.
 
It's not uncommon that additional issues come to light after an RFC has been accepted -- in most cases we just roll with it though, and nobody complains about any adjustment that may be necessary. Here people do complain, which is how we end up in this situation...
 
4:26 PM
Or should I say, we can add whatever language features we like, provided we've not needlessly backed ourselves into a corner years earlier :-)
 
Gotcha, thanks for clarifying. :+1:
So @Derick is being a remoaner.
 
@Sara Don't go there.
 
😘
IMO; Landing attributes with @@ moves forward, as that's what was voted on.
HOWEVER, if anyone (looks at Derick) wants to bring a vote to change the syntax, I'll allow that post feature-freeze as a (relatively) minor change to the already merged implementation. No later than tagging of RC1 though.
/me wanders off to repeat that on internals@
 
Joe Ferguson has put up an RFC
 
@Sara Agree. I think either we change that now in a final RFC or we don't.
 
4:36 PM
@Derick His RFC should include <<..>> as an option.
 
Why? That had the least votes last time.
 
Hrm. Fair.
I guess we answered that question already.
 
@MarkR I... don't know what you mean with protected/private attributes?
 
He does need to make it clear that the conflicts are resolved.
 
@Sara But conflicts are only resolved if Nikita's RFC passes, which it likely will.
 
4:38 PM
I think I saw someone from one of the static analyzer tools saying that the difference in level of effort for them was dramatically different. I forget who or where, though.
May have been on list.
 
@Crell Consider a future modification where you could only reflect attributes you had access to in your current scope. e.g. a class could read protected attributes belonging to a function in a child class, but a public scope wouldn't
 
I cannot fathom a use case for that...
@NikiC On an unrelated topic, any other input on the namespacing RFC before we put it to a vote?
(By which I mean, I ask someone to show me how to do that...)
 
@Crell I only ever give things the minimum amount of access they need. If it's not relevant to the public interface, it gets private / protected
 
@Tiffany Maybe, but I think there was something more detailed somewhere.
 
4:40 PM
For example, there's no practical reason for an external class to know if a method is Jitted or not.
 
@Crell James Titcumb mentioned one in private.
 
It was something like "I had to write 5000 lines of parser code to figure out where the attribute was, WTF"
 
o_O
 
(Not that specific number, but the sentiment.)
 
4:42 PM
@Crell Most static-analysis tools use Nikitas php-parser so it really shouldn't make any difference which syntax is used.
 
@Crell The gist being that having a closing tag was easier, I presume?
 
Correct.
 
With @phpdocs, sure that's way more complex. But any native syntax would be handled exactly the same.
 
Joe should put THAT in the re-syntax RFC as well then
 
If we can find the reference...
 
4:43 PM
#[ ] already has the closing syntax then though
 
@Crell And if it's legit...
 
The actual reference would be good, yes. :)
 
People like to exaggerate ^^
 
@Derick Nobody is disagreeing about #[...] having advantages.
 
asked Joe to pop in here
In other news, has anybody heard from Peter Kokot? Because if not, I'm going to look for a new person as co-release manager
I want releases off.
 
4:45 PM
@Derick hi!
 
Can you read the last 50 lines or so? Since 1735 (1235)
 
@MarkR For a case like that, this should be a configuration option on the original attribute, not something you have to specify with a keyword everywhere you use it.
 
@TheodoreBrown Needlessly restrictive without good reason IMO
 
Has he gone AWOL?
That sucks.
 
If we're going to limit our options, that's fine, sometimes it has advantages... but there has to be a positive payoff for it, otherwise you're just hamstringing yourself down the line... and what benefit did you get for it?
 
4:49 PM
Ok, I think I'm caught up.
 
@Derick If you ever find yourself needing a break. Ping me. I've had my workspace setup for multi-branch releases since Davey foxtrot oscar'd on JoeW.
 
@joepferguson There were two suggestions to put into the RFC I think, and I've also asked Juliette if she could flesh out her concern
 
I summed up the suggestions in the other place. :p
 
Thanks Sara!
 
Now, wtf doesn't the microsoft compiler like doing arithmetic with void pointers...
 
4:50 PM
YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT! WE HAVE OUR OWN CLUBHOUSE! WITH BLACKJACK! AND SNOOKER!
@Derick Because arithmetic on void* is bad and you should feel bad.
 
@Sara You make it sound like there's a secret handshake and you have to know a ritual tapdance to see the secret posts
 
@MarkR Actually, it's entirely public and all are welcome.
 
Except rhisoft :P (Did I get that name right?)
 
rhsoft
and Tony Marswhateverhislastnameis
 
@Sara It's just forking bytes I want to calculate with
 
4:52 PM
@Derick (T*) + 1 means point at storage sizeof(T) after the original pointer. sizeof(void) is zero (if it has a value at all), so void*+1 is meaningless
Then cast to char*
 
works fine with clang and gcc
 
or std::uint8_t*
clang and gcc are wrong.
 
FORK WHAT?! :-)
no shiny std:: nonsense in my code ;-)
 
@Derick 😂
 
:p
 
4:54 PM
How can I make GCC whine about it though?
 
void *myPtr = whatever();
void *myNewPtr = offset + reinterpret_cast<std::uint8_t*>(myPtr);

Simple.
Um... there's probably a -f for that
 
@Derick -Wpointer-arith
 
cheers @NikiC
 
-Wpointer-arith=error
Oh, Niki had it ready :p
 
I promote all warnings to errors already
 
4:57 PM
Here I was googling like a sucker
@Derick Good boy, have a cookie.
 
No DuckDuckGo? ;-)
 
@Derick My paranoia has limits.
Surprised you didn't call me out on my reinterpret_cast<> instead of a C-style cast.
/me proposes RFC: Adopt C++23 as PHP's language of choice.
 
My RFC has been updated to note the parser conflicts will be resolved via the Namespaced names as a single token RFC which looks like will easily pass when voting closes on 2020-07-31
 
@Sara Since you're here, what's the best way to get a hold of you now to discuss you and your co-RM appearing on Platform.sh's web show? :-)
 
@Sara I'm good at tuning out rubbish content ;-)
 
5:00 PM
@Derick I've tried DuckDuckGo on multiple occasions but Google still delivers better results. Which is probably mainly due to them learning from your behavior.
 
It's not a fair comparison then though...
 
@Crell Email is probably best as it's easiest to keep track of threads. Though obviously we're both here for low-latency discussion.
 
@Derick It's a trade-off. Not saying DuckDuckGo is worse, just that Google works better for me.
 
I haven't seen you here before since I started hanging around this dive bar, hence why I ask. :-)
 
cmb
@Derick I'd DM him first :)
 
5:01 PM
@Derick It's a fair comparison when taken on the basis of "Do I value privacy? Or productivity?"
@Crell I had dropped SOchat, but this topic seemed.... worthy of sorting out.
@Crell But fwiw, sounds like fun. Whenabouts were y'all thinking?
 
RE: AFK /MIA Release Managers: I'm still interested in getting into this. I've been following along as Sara and Gabriel are working on 8.0. If there's a need I'm happy to backfill. Otherwise I'm happy to cotinue planning the deathmatch showdown between Ramsey & myself for 8.1 :D
 
@joepferguson Oooh, good call. You could step up for 7.3 and get some experience in.
 
@Sara probably September/October time frame, once we're well into betas or RCs. I want to do a series of episodes on the various languages we support. What is it, why's it cool, when should you (not) use it, how do I learn it, etc.
 
7.4, rather
I forgot which release was Derick and Peter's. :p
 
Seven Point Four
 
5:09 PM
Didn't you have 5.4 as well?
Or was that 4.4
 
4.4
that was a lot more yolo
 
None of this RFC nonsense.
 
As there's a bunch of RMs around here, I would certainly still appreciate feedback on the idea of eventually moving our release data over into a single self-contained xml e.g. php-meta.markrandall.uk/releases/7_4/7_4_0.xml
 
XML is a pain to write for us, or to generate from the NEWS file... (your attempt wasn't great from what I saw in that repo)
 
It used pretty much the same parsing as generating the static HTML to do it
 
5:14 PM
And nothing is as annoying as a big XML file with conflicts due to multiple RMs touching that file at about the same time.
If anything, it should be per minor version.
 
What if any benefits are there to wrapping it in a single huge file?
 
For me it's just a change that I could do with out, as I'd have to redo all the tooling.
 
5:29 PM
@Sara So, you in? I can email you both to schedule more precisely. It would be a Friday, 11 am New York time.
 
In unrelated news, servers are too damn power hungry. I was looking to buy 3x Dell R720s to create a home cluster, but even at idle they'd be pulling almost 500 watts
 
@joepferguson on the RFC the concerns point "The @@ syntax causes parser conflicts " should be clarified to be past-tense and fixed with the namespaced token RFC. and the point about "distinct possibiltiy" of future parser problems must be supported by fact in contrast to other syntaxes.
 
Anyone know of a sub-£700 single server set up that doesn't drink juice like a crazy thing?
 
is the vote going to have to be 2/3 yes for #[]?
 
Good Q... majority seems like the most sensible solution considering that's what the previous one was won on
 
5:39 PM
@Sara wow wow wow we just managed to start using C99 for PHP 8.0
In other news, I'm in the GitHub sponsor program now, thanks for pointing it out @GabrielCaruso
 
Did you tell them you're a dirty gitlab user?
 
shhhhhhh
 
@MarkR The previous RFC had a 2/3 vote to approve the ranked-choice poll, though.
 
@beberlei That'd be ridiculous.
 
@Girgias Add some different tiers
 
5:47 PM
@MarkR Yeah I'm trying to come up with what to put
 
$5 / $10 / $20 / $50 / $100 seems like a good spread.
 
The thing is adding descriptions to tiers
 
Well start off by making a $25 one.
 
@Crell Sounds good. FYI; I'm in Central time (as I thought you knew).
@beberlei IMO, 50%+1 should be fine for this vote.
 
Oh, right, you're back in Chi-town and you STILL haven't gotten together with me. :( (Not that it would be safe to do so these days, but...)
 
6:08 PM
Anybody have experience with Directus? We're looking into open source CMSes to replace our crappy old custom CMS.
 
@IluTov You might want to consider github sponsors too
 
@Crell Yeah. For a moment, I was thinkning "Oh, I'll just do the stream with you in person" then like... duh... no... :~(
 
What's the URL to the draft rfc for attributes v2.3 please?
 
I think @joepferguson wants to revise it a bit more before sharing, so I'll leave it to him to share.
 
No worries, I realised Google drive shares remembered it :-)
 
6:19 PM
 
That thing sure does shift at a decent speed.
 
@MarkR I thought about it but I don't think it could provide nearly enough for me to actually reduce my working hours. That would be my main objective so that I can contribute without having to sacrifice too much of my free time.
 
@MarkR Orbits the Earth every 90ish minutes
 
@IluTov Wouldn't hurt
@Derick I dare say it's abit... tense up there right now
 
@MarkR Yeah that's true. I'll think about it.
 
6:30 PM
@MarkR jeez you were fast lol, thank you :D
 
@MarkR why? :-) They just got new snacks!
 
@beberlei I have added a note about the pending RFC to resolve the issues w/ @@, Regarding the possibility for future parsing issues: I'm waiting to get some code examples to add that will help clarify.
 
@joepferguson I provided a couple of examples on the ML about how extending the attributes syntax would rapidly lead to confusing / unreadable code... and that's before considering the mess of the parser.
@Derick The russian's were just caught test firing an orbital weapons system.
@Girgias Keep up the good work and other cliché platitudes :-)
 
👍
 
Thanks!
 
6:41 PM
@joepferguson Might I offer a small verbage suggestion?
 
Certainly
 
It's the general point to the open / close but something like:

With << >> eliminated in the previous vote, only the rusty style of #[ ] allows us to proceed with confidence regarding the future extensibility of the syntax. By offering a clear opening and closing delimiter the parser will be better able to switch into processing attributes and attribute-specific modifiers without the need to look ahead to determine the end of the attribute statement, this is particularly true in terms of future compatibility where additional keywords may be added.
Really hammer home that if it's pretty or not is subjective, but that having opening and closing tags to provide a distinct state are demonstrably beneficial.
 
+1
 
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