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1:26 AM
@Crell The RFC process is overly complicated for some things, I think. In this case I add no new functionality; only change a default to a rarely used feature where the default is harmful.
It's kind of like a bugfix, honestly.
 
Not complicated for you ;-)
it's... difficult to strike a balance in the right spots.
 
@LeviMorrison what do you think of this one? debating on sticking with it or switching back to the zoomed-in one
 
@Tiffany I think it's better, but I think the zoomed in one was best for SO chat.
@Derick Yeah.
 
@LeviMorrison Agree It's kinda hard to see currently in the tiny box
 
I changed it to a zoomed-in one with a blurred background, but waiting for SO chat to update.
wat? and I correct in thinking that password_hash is formed in such a way so that it can be saved into a database?
 
1:54 AM
That's correct, password_hash is meant to be saved in plain text
 
thanks
 
2:09 AM
Up vote button causes down vote ・ *General Issues ・ #79882
 
2:49 AM
Eugh.... I just installed a new VM and immediately "forgot" the password, even though It's literally written down next to me and I typed it in twice to confirm.
 
I made it a habit to always put VM passwords in my password manager because there have been too many times where I set up a VM, then I don't touch it for like a month, and have forgotten various passwords.
 
The web based client used for setting them up doesn't allow pasting or I would... I installed a security camera earlier today where they'd deliberatly prevented pasting in complex passwords, I could have knocked them out with their own camera fixture
 
That year I was spinning up a VM in virtualbox like once every two months for different reasons. I'm not sure I even have any of those boxes anymore, but it was good practice.
Heh
 
I did get some nice networking gear today though, kinda kicking myself I didn't go for a 48 port switch with 10Gbe SFP+ though
 
Any reason you're setting all this up? Or for funsies?
 
3:01 AM
I decided it would be a good idea to run cat6 around my house, and the long term aim is to run a pair of high availability VMs over shared storage
So I've split the house up into various VLANs, installed some PoE security cameras, and if cmb can work it out I expect i'll be running a couple of things for the PHP project as well
 
3:18 AM
Becoming a host? :P
 
3:28 AM
As Microsoft has pulled support for 8.0 I've offered to allocate part of my existing VMs to running the snapshots
but for now, i need sleeps \o/ nn
 
Same, goodnight
 
3:46 AM
Morning all
What are those No on Stack Frame come from?
In case of PHP Token there was 100% of Yes while this is nearly the same type of change!
No one comments on No and I have no idea what is wrong with it.
If there's an issue I can work over it for next PHP release if current proposal is not enough. But I have to know what's going on.
 
 
3 hours later…
7:00 AM
@brzuchal the justification is very weak, we don't really care about performance at the point of failure ... efficiency isn't a factor we consider and is the only measurable difference you want to make, since "being easier to read" is obviously subjective ...
is this a thing you announced on internals, did anyone else (that votes) say it was a good idea ?
 
7:20 AM
Documentation on foreach neglects to mention the alternate syntax. ・ Documentation problem ・ #79883
 
cmb
7:31 AM
@MarkR thanks, that could be very helpful. There has been some talk about a certain company possibly getting involved in the Windows builds (perhaps completely taking that over), so let's wait for 1 or 2 weeks on what comes out of that.
 
7:46 AM
@JoeWatkins there was quite much RFC's recently on internals but on this specific RFC - no comments
 
@brzuchal you argue with performance when called many times, but this use case does not exist, compared to PhpToken where its the core of the API. so essentially its introducing a second way to do something that is rarely needed, which adds to developer mental load without a huge benefit
 
> tl;dr is that it allows you to get token_get_all() output as an array of
PhpToken objects. This reduces memory usage, improves performance, makes
code more uniform and readable... What's not to like?
The same arguments were used for PhpToken
 
yes, but you get thousands of thousands of tokens, but you rarely get more than one, letst say a handful of calls to access the backtrace
 
اثغش
heya
 
Well, it depends what you consider to, right? In normal flow application probably doesn't use token_get_all at all, but handles exceptions for sure
 
7:52 AM
the cardinality is the key here, you handle exception once, maybe a handful of times
 
it was hard to guess if this RFC has no interest in supporting it or it was just lost int the amount of RFC's and other stuff going on the ML
and I can find in history of this chat some talks about exception handling and stack trace items being objects and StackFrame, no one complains
it's hard to guess if no one like it or is it because maybe no one likes me
ahhhhh nvm
I've provided a PoC PR but since it's not likely to pass I can save time doing some gardening then
 
morns
 
8:21 AM
@Girgias Yaay! I've just managed to make the tests green (locally) on the OpenSSL stuff \o/
 
@JoeWatkins I was thinking about what you said and got a question: why you consider the performance of exception handling for instance on queue consumers not important?
cuase on long running processes memory consumption is significant, right?
 
PHP_CONFIG_FILE_PATH is meaningless ・ PHP options/info functions ・ #79884
 
ahh, and here's the first conflict: Nikita has just fixed an issue in OpenSSL :D
 
@MátéKocsis Hopefully I fixed that issue correctly, this code is a mess
(A somewhat recurring pattern in php-src, hm?)
 
@NikiC In my opinion the resource migration made the code a tiny little bit less messy. OFC those crazy parameter lists remain the same.
 
8:28 AM
@MátéKocsis At least the migration will get us actual leak checks
 
 
1 hour later…
9:35 AM
@brzuchal exceptional means cannot continue execution, any pattern that calls for the repeated throwing of exceptions designed to be caught (as opposed to being handled as probably the last action the application performs) is by definition abusing exceptions for flow control, and is wrongheaded ...
being in an exceptional state should be very low frequency, if ever repeated at all ... like benjamin already tried to explain, we care about the perf of a token abstraction because there could be a million of those, but there should never be a very high volume (or frequency) of exceptions ...
 
9:48 AM
@JoeWatkins The question is… at what point do you start bubbling exceptions? You have a tool to fetch http resources. Obviously in general we do not expect I/O or DNS resolution issues. But (hypotetical) in my application I happen to scrape a lot of old and expired urls. Getting DNS exceptions and I obviously need to catch them in masse then. Is that bad?
For the general use case of the tool, e.g. fetching an API an issue is highly unexpected and exceptional and should throw. Would you suggest adding an option/ctor param to get no exceptions, but proper return values which can be handled?
(I know that is not your core point, but maybe you have an opinion on that)
 
@MátéKocsis Yay :D should also prevent the mem leak bugs which seem to exist in it
 
10:15 AM
@JoeWatkins most of http clients or db/cache clients throw exceptions on connection errors, most db connectors throw on transaction errors, deadlocks etc. - in all my apps and those I saw consumers are retrying actions on these exceptions, I've never considered them wrong, cause we do not have other flow control mechanism
 
@MátéKocsis rm -rf ext/openssl/tests? :-P
 
guys for escaping output from XSS attacks should I use htmlentities() always?
 
you should escape appropriately for the situation
if you are outputting user data on to a web page, you should use htmlspecialchars() or htmlentities() (usually the former)
for a URL you should use urlencode()
you should not blindly escape things when you don't need to
you escape on output, not input. crucially
 
How do you clear an exception so that you can throw again (in PHP internals)?
 
yes but which functions should I use?
 
10:24 AM
@Maximious the appropriate function for the situation, as above I just told you the appropriate functions for those two specific situations
think about it this way - if there was a magical function that could do "escaping" for you, the language would do it all by itself
 
@Girgias What do you mean by that?
 
@brzuchal I need to clear the previous one so that I can throw a new one
I think just doing EG(exception) = NULL might do the trick
 
Ohhh that, dunno
Sorry was thinking about trace in exception instance and cleaning of it before throwing again, sorry
 
Cause I don't wanna go through a massive refactoring of GMP just so that I can pass a "is_modulo" arg which would be used only once uuuuuuhhhh
no worries
 
Meh, wiki.php.net is down
 
10:32 AM
Okay it kinda works but now I got a mem leak
:(
 
@DaveRandom I have this code in my application
$html .= '
<tr>
<td>' . track_changes::get_item_label_by_type($item) . '</td>
<td>' . htmlentities($item['entity_name']) . '</td>
<td><a href="#" onClick="set_filter_by_id(' . $item['entities_id'] . ',' . $item['items_id'] . ')">' . $item['items_id'] . '</a></td>
<td style="white-space: normal;"><a target="_new" href="' . url_for('items/info','path=' . $item_info['path']['full_path']) . '">' . $item_info['name'] . '</a></td>
<td style="white-space: normal;">' . (strlen($comment) ? $comment . '<br>':'') . $html_fields . '</td>
can you tell me where should I put the htmlentities() and urlencode()?
any idea?
 
10:51 AM
@Maximious I find that hard to read. You might actually want to use a library I made to make this type of stuff more readable: packagist.org/packages/danack/esprintf Which would allow your code to look like this: gist.github.com/Danack/4bfe9810b3b8ff920aba9170c8917d41
that's easier to interpret (imo) because you can see the escaping used separately from the source of the data.
And can reasonably easily see that the type of escaping done is appropriate for where the data is being used.
 
Morning
 
@NikiC btw what's the status on Attribute syntax? Are you going to merge @@ as you merged the namespace token bit?
 
@Girgias once it's rebased, yes
Nobody cried loudly enough that they want a revote on that one :/
 
@NikiC Okay, just wanted to confirm as I need it for my presentation
Well I'm not sure who should have been crying out loud for a revote
If you want I can complain on list when you merge it :P
 
@Danack yes you used esprintf() at last
 
10:57 AM
lol
 
@Maximious .....er, yes. that's the function the library provides.
 
@Maximious as opposed to when?
 
@Tiffany I am very confused which functions to use and where in my code
 
> You might actually want to use a library I made to make this type of stuff more readable: packagist.org/packages/danack/esprintf
That's a wrapper for this functionality: docs.laminas.dev/laminas-escaper/theory-of-operation
(Though I known I need to update it to the renamed library...)
 
@Maximious it will depend on when you want to call functions for code execution. What are you encountering that's confusing?
Unrelated note, first morning I can drink tea in like a week. Yaaaay.
 
11:08 AM
he doesn't know which escaping functions to use and has been given different advice....and hasn't grokked that different places need different escaping.
 
first time I am solving XSS attacks and I don't know what to do at all
I searched couple of things in net and found that I need to escape output , sanitize input.
so sanitization is done but for escaping output I am very confused
 
@Maximious My advice, read this: docs.laminas.dev/laminas-escaper/theory-of-operation then use packagist.org/packages/danack/esprintf as a nicer wrapper to that functionality.
 
Escaper++
 
@Tiffany my confusion is this
this is my code
 
1 message moved to friendly bin
please use pastebin or a gist.github.com
Also, break your code into functions, and:
10 mins ago, by Danack
@Maximious My advice, read this: https://docs.laminas.dev/laminas-escaper/theory-of-operation/ then use https://packagist.org/packages/danack/esprintf as a nicer wrapper to that functionality.
 
11:27 AM
@Maximious what's wrong with the help @Danack has given you?
 
I read that document they are using laminas escaper
 
@NikiC why the ":/" ? Thought you like the @@ syntax
 
@Maximious "then use packagist.org/packages/danack/… as a nicer wrapper to that functionality."
that library makes the same functionality available but in an easier to use way (imo).
 
@Maximious it provides general advice on escaping data, which is something I think you were looking to understand better, right?
But what they use is a framework, and what Danack offers is a library that's lighter-weight and easy to install with composer
 
@Tiffany I understand what are you saying but how do I solve the issue . I got source code analysis report and that mentions the page name where I have to fix
 
11:39 AM
@Maximious so you have a tool we don't know that tells you stuff you don't understand and you reject our structural suggestions on how to fix it because you want a copy/paste solution? Got you
 
ughhhhh frustrating I can't explain properly
 
Try out what has been explained to you first
 
@NikiC I would love a revote, but... I don't think it's OK to do.
 
@DaveRandom :'D no test, no cry :D
 
@Maximious Branch your code in git, mess around with it
 
11:56 AM
@Maximious are you using drupal?
 
@Tiffany no I am not using drupal
it's simple php application
 
initial look of your code, there's db_query which is a drupal function...
 
or just a function named db_query ;-)
 
and db_fetch_array, which is also a drupal function... but I didn't read much further than that because pasting that much code in chat is a bad idea
 
TLDR :-)
 
12:00 PM
@Tiffany it's function db_query
within that function mysqli_query() is used
 
cmb
@Girgias maybe zend_clear_exception()
 
@cmb Yeah I found that after digging a bit
 
cmb
:)
 
@Derick oh god
 
:-D
 
12:06 PM
@Derick thanks
 
it's almost word-for-word with Mark's starred post
Jul 6 at 15:40, by Mark R
"[RFC] Are you sureeee you want @@? It's not too late to correct our mistakes before we're stuck with them for 20 years"
 
I hadn't seen that post!
 
@Derick thank you
 
cmb
12:24 PM
If the outcome of any RFC is bad, it appears our RFC process is fundamentally flawed – if so, this should be fixed ASAP.
 
for changes of the parser, maybe a technical feasability check before an RFC is allowed to go to vote?
 
Quick question regarding the string_to_number_comparison rfc - will the following code change function / allow a value not between 0 and 999 inclusive to be passed to processTheValue()?
 if (1000 < $_GET["in"]) {
    echo "Too much";
} elseif (0 >= $_GET["in"]) {
    echo "Not enough";
} else {
    processTheValue((int) $_GET["in"]);
}
 
speaking of which. has anyone actually tried an implementation of #[] to ensure it's viable? :)
 
(this is a pretty common pattern in my codebase - of which I also would share examples privately if desired)
 
@pmmaga yes there is a patch, and the engine ninjas here said it had much better parser rules
 
12:36 PM
ok. just wanted to check we won't have to go "welllll, actually... #[] also won't cut it"
 
@bwoebi $_GET["in"] needs to be strictly numeric (currently in master only leading whitespace and number) so I would expect it to be ok for a fast path
 
that'd be emberrasing :D
 
Turns out Attributes won't cut it, sorry :(
 
Not more @@Drama ... :(
 
Jun 8 at 15:28, by salathe
PHP 8.1 deprecations: attributes (we couldn't decide on the syntax after all, sorry, so they're gone) :P
 
12:39 PM
I remember that one :D
 
12:52 PM
@Girgias no, the point is … given arbitrary input by a not so nice user, may the bounds be violated?
 
@bwoebi A non number will necessary go through the processTheValue function
Even "5hdfs" will go through it, IF my understanding is correct
 
@Girgias which is fine, but -5hfds must not and not be casted to -5
 
@bwoebi The explicit int cast would cast that to -5 tho
 
@Girgias sure, but it should not land in the else branch
at least currently it doesn't
 
Oh I misunderstood the logic of the code, it will tho
 
12:58 PM
/me proposes we support all 3 attribute syntaxes so that everyone can have their preferred syntax.
6
 
@bwoebi I think your particular example would work fine, but in the general case, this kind of logic would not be right
Because you are relying on the fact that the comparison will behave "as-if" an int cast occurred
 
@NikiC Yeah realized that I've chosen the numbers badly
@NikiC yes, exactly… Is there any way to find these bad assumptions specifically?
 
@bwoebi grep for > $_GET? :D
 
revote for the RFC would be unnecessary right, because it's STV?
 
Well, I guess any kind of non-equality comparison involving a string would be something I would consider very dubious
 
1:05 PM
@NikiC 5766 occurrences
 
So I guess, pick psalm/phpstan and find any </<=/>/>= comparisons that involve strings -- not sure how false positivy that would be
 
@Tiffany Mathematically, yes. Procedurally... RM's call.
 
declare(attribute_syntax=@@); You're welcome
 
@NikiC quite… :-(
 
@pmmaga D:
 
1:06 PM
:D
 
This is really going to be the worst BC break since PHP 3 times for that codebase
 
@MátéKocsis there are one or two cases where it would arguably be an improvement
 
I like the change from an academic standpoint though :x
 
@bwoebi I guess it would be possible to preserve behavior for that case by performing the comparison as "compare as numbers first and if equal and non-numeric, compare lexicographically". Would make for some pretty complicated semantics though.
 
"Terrible" is the amount of humans having their lives taken by a pandemic.

Oh do fuck off....
 
1:17 PM
@Derick yeah, just ignore that piece of bullshit mail
 
@pmmaga declare(parser=my_custom_php.y);
2
 
@IluTov I'm in.
@NikiC I agree, but do direct string comparisons matter apart from sort?
I mean, in context where we do not use numbers
 
@bwoebi Mostly not, though it's not like one can distinguish sort and non-sort ^^
 
@NikiC tbf in sort cases where string sort is important, you usually want language aware sorting etc.
in other cases you just sort to have deterministic output and then it doesn't matter much
 
@bwoebi Yes, I don't think the order particularly matters. My concern for those semantics is more that it becomes hard to describe them. It's not just "cast the string to number and compare as numbers" (now) or "cast the number to string and compare as strings" (RFC), but rather something complex that cannot be easily described
Though maybe it's still worthwhile to avoid breaking your codebase :P
 
1:28 PM
At least I would be in favor of the change then
while the "" == 0 change is certainly annoying, these can be relatively easy found, and also patched at the db layer (and change NULL -> "" to NULL -> null)
but suddenly allowing in previously disallowed data is critical
Also Georges invalid numbers being typeerrors is more an annoyance than actually critical
 
I'm sorry :(
 
This is why we have alphas and betas. If something seems unworkable, we can change it.
 
@Girgias I think it's good for new codebases. And the language evolution should be tailored to new codebases. It just should - definitely not - break critical safety assumptions of old codebases without trivial possibility to automatically fix them
 
@bwoebi Well the comparison one is not mine so :p as most of my changes should just make stuff explode if it's being unreasonable, which may need some refactoring on old assumptions :-/
 
@Girgias yeah, but explosions can be fixed - hence annoyances
 
1:39 PM
Indeed ^^
 
It's bad when it explodes in the face of the customer and he cannot do anything about it. But in the end it's not critical.
 
@bwoebi I'd honestly be happy with 1000 < '2000foo' throwing a TypeError. While it's probably more breaking at least it doesn't suddenly behave differently.
 
Yeah, pass -> fatal is better than pass -> silently screw up.
 
@IluTov then you'd suddenly be unable to sort keys of an user provided array for example
 
I wonder if it wouldn't be better to steal eq from PERL
 
1:43 PM
@bwoebi You'd just have to convert the number to a string before, right?
 
@IluTov sure
 
@bwoebi Again, annoying but at least not wrong :)
 
@IluTov usability is also a big factor
PHP is inherently designed to at least sometimes do implicit casts
for the sake of usability at the very last
 
@bwoebi I can imagine there are other cases that would be annoying but those usually aren't discovered until you try it.
 
Once upon a time implicit casts helped get websites up quickly, now PHP gets used for enterprise software the world over and implicit changes beholden to the input of the user are the last thing you want.
 
1:48 PM
@MarkR Yeah depends a lot on what is currently being executed
 
@cmb Thanks for the PR. As long as it passes I'll merge it. How reliable is windows.php.net/downloads/releases/releases.json in terms of up-time ?
 
cmb
@Derick should be pretty good.
 
How many 9s? :-) (Just trying to figure out if because of that extra request things could fail)
 
guys one more question is mysqli_real_escape_string() enough to prevent second order sql injection?
 
@Maximious No
 
2:01 PM
@Tiffany so what should I do to fix second order sql injection?
 
Though I probably should've googled what second order is first... 😳
also...
2773
Q: How can I prevent SQL injection in PHP?

Andrew G. JohnsonIf user input is inserted without modification into an SQL query, then the application becomes vulnerable to SQL injection, like in the following example: $unsafe_variable = $_POST['user_input']; mysql_query("INSERT INTO `table` (`column`) VALUES ('$unsafe_variable')"); That's because the us...

and
664
Q: Are PDO prepared statements sufficient to prevent SQL injection?

Mark BiekLet's say I have code like this: $dbh = new PDO("blahblah"); $stmt = $dbh->prepare('SELECT * FROM users where username = :username'); $stmt->execute( array(':username' => $_REQUEST['username']) ); The PDO documentation says: The parameters to prepared statements don't need to be quoted; t...

in other words, google is your friend, try using it first :)
(but those two questions I had bookmarked already, so I cheated)
 
cmb
@Derick "9s" ???
 
@cmb One 9 reliability :D
 
:-D
 
is that php.net's uptime agreement? lol
 
2:07 PM
oi!
 
XD ... I'll go hide under a rock
 
I would still like to take a stab at changing how internals stores its change logs etc prior to 8.1
 
cmb
Ah, I see, thanks! Guess it's way higher than bugs.php.net :D
 
@MarkR wrt merge conflicts on NEWS?
 
@bwoebi When I was working on a new php.net design I rolled an XML schema that combined the donwload links, change logs and announcement into a single self-contained file - php-meta.markrandall.uk/releases/7_4/7_4_0.xml
I then used the data rather than raw HTML to be able to do things like php-web.markrandall.uk/versions/7.4.0
 
2:49 PM
Backtrace behaviour seems wrong/changed ・ Scripting Engine problem ・ #79885
 
 
1 hour later…
3:57 PM
Minor Service Outage
 
4:10 PM
@LeviMorrison Looks like you have lots of support for the assert change :)
 
Yeah, it should be pretty obvious I think.
Still, the mailing list is not always so straightforward...
 
Incident on 2020-07-22 16:20 UTC
 
5:01 PM
@GabrielCaruso Why is feature freeze day on Tuesday Aug 4? I specifically had made it a Monday because now it's ambiguous whether stuff can go in on that Tuesday (which it cant, as we don't know when you or Sara will tag it).
 
5:20 PM
Someone please tell me there are some thoughts around moving exceptions to method sigs? Literally the last thing we need docblocs for (apart from actual comments)
 
@Derick Did you run the numbers yet on what would happen if @@ was eliminated based on existing results?
 
Yes, #[] would win.
 
Excellent.
 
I think...
was some time ago
let me check
 
All issues have been resolved!
 
5:30 PM
yes, 36 for #[], 23 for <<>>
 
Nice. That's pretty definitive then.
 
I saw that on twitter, but still no idea
 
Shared this over in php.chat, figured I'd also share here. It's a first pass at an RFC to accept the `#[]` syntax over the `@@` syntax based on feedback & parser implementation concerns: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1L8bL9DCmgkdg-nBEedgJq0ztPJHptYHYNbZkORrpPuA/edit

Would love some feedback/guidance.
 
I don't think it's appropriate to re-vote on the same syntax if there aren't actual technical problems with the implementation.
 
5:42 PM
Technical problems mentioned include lack of a delimiter
 
Can you share an example of where that would be a technical problem?
 
I'm sure many library maintainers can, I only mention it off the top of my head :)
(as in, that was their issue with it, not mine)
 
It already was. But as written in the mailing lists, it's a larger problem. We have to live with our choices here for a long, long time so it is advantageous to go for an option that offers the most flexibility and least risk of complicating future development.
and the namespace issue, although it has now been fixed, brought attention to the need for such planning.
 
The original <<>> syntax was actually more problematic when it comes to flexibility, as it doesn't support nested attributes well.
 
@TheodoreBrown It supports nested attributes perfectly well, no? It's just ugly. There's no parsing ambiguity.
 
5:49 PM
Correct, but the ugliness is so bad that none of the implementers were okay with implementing it.
 
That said, I can't think of any other parsing issues @@ could have. Although I also didn't see the one we've had coming :P
@TheodoreBrown Honestly, nested attributes are rare enough that I don't really care if it's ugly. Unfortunately, none of our options are optimal.
 
@TheodoreBrown The RFC as accepted introduces a parser conflict.
Which was failed to mention in the RFC. On that alone should it have been thrown out.
 
How many people are actually paid to work on php-src? I wish there was a more sustainable way for me to contribute. Unfortunately not many companies are interested in supporting open source without a direct benefit. Sponsoring is another way but I don't feel like I've contributed enough to ask for sponsors.
 
@Derick The conflict was a result of weirdness with how PHP treated namespaced names, which has been fixed now. So the final implementation doesn't have any conflict.
 
Very few are paid to specifically work on php-src unless they benefit. I think dmitry still gets paid, and Nikita, and I'm not sure what's going on with the people doing Windows builds.
I do get to contribute, but primarily when it benefits my employer.
 
6:00 PM
@LeviMorrison It's honestly amazing how well PHP is doing given that fact.
 
Yes, but the project does show side-effects because of it.
 
Thanks for all the help @derick
 
I'd love for there to be a sort of foundation for funding maintenance tasks somehow. PECL is tied to PEAR, which is a dying project, but PECL itself is mostly fine aside from this. Tons of bugs in the tracker need attention. Servers need upgraded. Website infrastructure needs updated.
 
@TheodoreBrown It's disingenuous to say that is is "fixed" when it was just luck that Nikita looked at it because of something else.
 
Yes, it's fortunate that Nikita's other RFC solved it. But either way it's fixed.
 
6:06 PM
It isn't fixed yet.
 
Ultimately it's a moot point as to if it can be voted on again surely? Any RFC vote can change or counteract any previous RFC.
 
Did you leave out that it introduced a parser conflict by mistake or on purpose?
 
I wasn't aware that initial implementation was an issue until Nikita pointed it out when reviewing the PR.
 
OK
 
@IluTov Mostly you need to find a company where what you want to work aligns with what they want. Kinda why TCM hired me because having less false returns is something which they are interested in as it lower their burden to maintain their safe library
 
6:31 PM
@Girgias So, what company specifically benefits from enums in PHP for example ^^ Probably not many except for maybe a company like JetBrains. It's mainly interesting to developers but it shouldn't be on them to fund a tool that the company makes its money with.
 
I think many company would actually benefit from something like Enums
Or pattern-matching
But the issue is companies willing to pay :/
 
@Girgias Sure indirectly. But that's invisible to the ones making business decisions.
 
Yeah, well or have a CEO being a dev
I met David the CEO of TCM at the PHP London pre-conf drink thing
So meetups are a good way to meet folks like that, but well meetups are kinda cancelled until further notice :(
 
i just cant afford hireing someone to work on php-src right now. i hope its possible in the near future
 
@beberlei I think the entire APM market has room to grow, so I hope you can afford it in the near future too.
 
6:43 PM
@beberlei let me know when that happens :) even a day per week would be awesome
 
I have no idea what the going rate for sponsoring someone to work on PHP even is o.O
 
The problem isn't finding someone who would benefit from enums. The problem is finding ONE entity who would benefit ENOUGH for them to fund it. A highly diffuse benefit is much harder to fund.
Unless you have some full on foundation with membership dues that can be directed toward tasks by someone at the foundation, which PHP could really benefit from but is logistically and culturally very tricky.
(Having been through that gauntlet with Drupal...)
s/enums/whatever feature you want to talk about/
 
If someone came along and said... I want to throw a few thousand at PHP, I don't even know how they could go about that?
 
There is no mechanism right now. That's part of the problem of PHP being all-informal.
 
btw if you're ready to bite the bullet, namespace RFC?
 
6:47 PM
What are the key steps for creating a foundation and what's the issues it would need to handle?
 
Anything else to do/say/tweak? The feedback has been so minimal I don't know how to read it.
 
@MarkR lol given how crazy expensive Switzerland is probably significantly less than what I'm getting from my regular job ^^
 
@brzuchal The very nature of creating a foundation requires quite a bit of expenditure just in operations.
 
@brzuchal oh, a lot. soooo many things.
 
Generally needs to be considered a non-profit for tax purposes. Needs to have trust of community to gain adoption. Needs to actually get people to donate.
 
6:48 PM
You can get a foundation off the ground for ~$500 USD
 
@Crell Yeah I think almost all companies will benefit a little but not enough to be willing to fund it.
 
@brzuchal Just setting up the legal agency is several weeks and a few hundred bucks. The really big challenge is the cultural shift to make people OK with it, and figure out its relationship with the project.
Generally it's stupidly hard to get over that hump without Official Support And Backing from the Project Lead(tm). Which... we don't have. So there's no one to really bless a PHP Foundation.
 
isn't that what Zend was a long time ago? or was that purely business?
 
It took 6+ months for Joindin to get the 501c3. US is very backlogged I imagine still.
 
Zend was an anchor company, but didn't take money from others to fund PHP-SRC dev, AFAIK.
We got Fair Vote IL up and running a lot faster than that.
(I don't know how; I wasn't involved in that side.)
 
6:51 PM
Having a non-profit charity or something would be lovely as they're usually tax deductable.
 
The bigger issue is "OMG someone at PHP Foundation gets to Decide(tm) what gets worked on and what goes into PHP??? How dare you, you're destroying the community!" (And, yes, it would change the dynamic of the community quite a bit.)
 
My first one was ~ 90 days, before they revamped the process. OSMI was hella fast. less than a month almost I think. JI took forever compared.
@MarkR This is a really smart part of foundation/nonprofit/charity operations. And it's really limited on what qualifies. But yes, it's a benefit that can be extended.
 
Does it have to be registered in USA?
 
And of course that would impact RFC votes, "because I don't want any features sponsored by that evil faceless corporation" and "wait, I paid how much to this foundation to see to it that X feature happened but some yahoos on a mailing list got to vote and tell me now? F that!"
 
already in a deadlok discussion here :p
 
6:53 PM
If you want US companies to benefit,yes.
You would need to incorporate in every country you want to offer charity benefits to. I've only done US.
 
Aren't there foreign non-profits that are eligible for US companies? Been a while since I looked, but I thought it was possible.
 
They need to have a US subsidiary.
 
Could be. OSMI looked into incorporating in the UK a few years back. But we would have had to have a citizen sponsor it, and do a lot of hoop jumping.
 
Disclosure: Former Board Member of the Drupal Association, Belgian edition. I rolled off when we transitioned over to a US NFP.
 
I'm sure we'd want one anyway; the US companies seems to disproportionately have the money.
 
6:55 PM
Really, the cultural issues are way bigger than the financial logistics. Trust me on this.
 
I don't think people funded should generally be paid to work on features which may not make it passed voting. Work should be done for maintenance and non-feature improvements.
 
Then enums and generics may never happen. :-)
 
That may be true, but we need maintenance a lot more than enums... that's my $0.02 anyway.
 
The ideal is for a lot more people to have Nikita's gig, which is good. However, you also eventually get the response of "so why should I volunteer my time when those 3 people are paid to do what they want on it?" Which will happen.
Now, paying someone to make the code base more maintainable and more documented so that morons like me can figure out how to even do anything, that would be delightful...
 
I've seen some fantastic work in Crypto communities (Specifically EOS) where work orders / statements of work are essentially approved by a body before work begins. IMO that could be the RFC process.

Crell is 100% correct the cultural issues are far more to overcome than execution.
 
7:03 PM
@Crell I believe you. Even without funding people think internals are obligated to implement their favorite features ("just give me generics already"). If they paid for it that would get 10 times worse.
 
Such is life in volunteer software.
(I won't even say OSS; it's volunteer software specifically.)
 
@Crell I'll maybe start doing that when nothing can land in 8.0 anymore
 
Doing which?
 
Documenting the engine a bit better
 
Please please please do. Code comments in the code.
As a n00b I may be able to help, because I could definitely use it. :-) (Also, I'm a tech writer at work, in practice.)
 
7:06 PM
There are some hidden resources
Like there is a whole bit on zend.com
 
Honestly? Docs like this belong in a docs directory in the repo itself, and a site generated off of that. Not API docs, but real English-language docs.
Not on "some website somewhere", but generated on internal-docs.php.net straight out of the repo.
 
We have some stuff in docs/ but yeah agreeded
 
@Crell I agree. There are many resources but they are on random blogs of people who have worked on php-src in the past. Many outdated.
 
Not necesarilly engine directly: but related: zend.com/resources/writing-php-extensions
 
Yeah, there's much more in the way of extension resources than engine resources.
 
7:12 PM
Here's an RFC if we end up needing a vote to take the 2nd choice in the Short Attribute Syntax RFC: wiki.php.net/rfc/shorter_attribute_syntax_change
 
@Crell If you want to get to know the internals of PHP, I suggest that you work on tiny little things first. There's a whole bunch of such tasks on which mainly George and me have been working since last year. These could help you to build up the knowledge.
 
phpinternalsbook.com is the most complete resource imho
 
Last I looked it didn't cover internals. :-) Just extensions.
Have to go run an errand, BBL.
 
@beberlei Yeah, e.g. if you wanna learn all about hashtables :P phpinternalsbook.com/php7/internal_types/hashtables.html
 
@Girgias These have been link rotting :/
 
7:21 PM
@LeviMorrison True, they are also pretty damn hidden
 
@beberlei Joking aside, that one is fairly useful.
 
@IluTov I'm looking forward to tomorrow so much :) Finally I'll be able to try my DI container benchmark with match! :D
 
@MátéKocsis Ha right, I forgot ^^ I hope you'll still be as enthusiastic tomorrow :D
 
Haha, so do i! :D Here's how it looks like: github.com/kocsismate/php-di-container-benchmarks/blob/…
 
@MátéKocsis Cool, fingers crossed that it's actually faster :P
 
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