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2:08 AM
I didn't know I needed this... warning: Instagram, possibly nsfw
 
@Tiffany Is that a ... you want him to treat you like he treats his PC, kinda thing?
 
No comment
 
:P
 
One of our more prominent house Representatives tweeted about league a day or two ago
 
LOL, a woman has to have some downtime.
I've been really quite impressed with her and how she argues in committee and on the floor
 
2:25 AM
One of the tweets in the thread "are you able to deal with Republican trolls haters on Twitter because you're already used to the trolls in league?" "Yes" twitter.com/AOC/status/1282876094698401794?s=19
 
lol
 
 
5 hours later…
7:14 AM
!!rfcs
 
7:32 AM
Guys, could this actually be the day that I actually start the nullsafe vote? :P
Or does somebody want to tell me about more flaws xD
 
Ah, today all the RFC votes will start :P
 
cmb
7:49 AM
Linux (F)CGI (not PHP-FPM): each (F)CGI process has its own OPcache instance, right?
 
@Girgias oops, sorry for the repeated message 😃 i was on phone, on bad network, during travelling.
 
cmb
@NikiC, I had a quick chat on IRC with Remi, and he says that cross-compiling has always been a mess, and that he builds 32bit in a 32bit chroot. Probably not an option for Azure pipelines, though. :(
 
@cmb i would assume yes, but its been a mystery to me too. php-cgi gets started from scratch on every call, so opcache should be pretty useless. only when you use the -T <count> flag for making the same call multiple times, consecutive ones reuse opcache
 
cmb
With FCGI php-cgi shouldn't start for each request, though.
 
@cmb Yeah, it's a mess... apart from postgres it seems to mostly work, though never for long
 
7:54 AM
@cmb ah there is a -b flag for fastcgi mode, yes i would assume it doesnt restart
 
cmb
My point is that Windows OPcache is an unsolvable mess due to sharing OPcache between unrelated processes. I think it has to work like on Linux (even though it makes it less useful on Windows without a dedicated SAPI).
 
@cmb would only really work with threading though, right?
 
cmb
a dedicated SAPI, yes
But even without one, I think the current behavior makes no sense. Consider you run FCGI with IIS. Everything may work fine, until the temp folder gets purged. Afterwards FCGI appears to run fine, but it never can start new worker processes...
 
@cmb how is temp folder purge related?
 
cmb
There is a file with the base address of the mapping (and execute_ex). If that file is missing, OPcache bails out if it already has opened the existing file mapping. Might be possible to improve that by moving the info in that file into SHM, but that would require mapping at arbitrary address first, reading the info, closing, and then trying to map at the specified address.
Also, execute_ex address doesn't catch different base addresses of extension DLLs.
 
8:06 AM
Do we have anything depending on extension addresses?
on windows we shouldn't have deps on internal classes iirc
@cmb if the file is missing, why doesn't it chose a different base address (duplicating the shm effectively)
 
cmb
That might be an option, but would still be confusing to have potentially multiple instances (e.g. for opcache stats).
well, we already have that though (file_cache fallback)
 
@cmb Rather than a dedicated SAPI, isn't there already a threaded Apache module?
 
cmb
Yes, mod_php; I tried preloading with that, but httpd was shut down (just by having a preload file; no internal classes etc. referenced there). Have not been yet able to debug (no debug symbols for Apache).
 
@cmb Possibly php-fpm could be made to work on windows with a thread instead of fork model...
but tbh I have like zero understanding of the sapi layer
 
cmb
same here :)
And MSFT wouldn't be interested in a threaded SAPI (AIUI), but since they're no longer interested in PHP 8 anyway ...
 
8:20 AM
Yeah
I can probably help as well (apart from the actual thread APIs, I expect this to work the same on Linux)
But then again fpm already seems to have so many issues :/
 
8:50 AM
@NikiC replace it
 
9:35 AM
!!rfcs
 
9:53 AM
I'm a bit concerned about these exceptions... it's all fine if you validate user input beforehand. And make sure it's really the right type. But in many cases like "by how much to increment that value?" You just do the maths and compare the inputs losely with < and >. And it does just not matter.
You will forget to validate trivial cases sometimes and not test all invalid inputs. But does that mean php should blow up? I always considered that one of the selling points of php. Is it good from an academical standpoint? No. From a practical standpoint, if emitting loggable errors? Yes.
I do not want to see some users being completely unable to access their account just because somewhere central was a typeerror due to some unexpected data in their record
At least everything else shall still work
 
1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · 5 · 6 · 7
 
@salathe wait for it
 
Just wondering whether I'm unreasonable
 
@NikiC — I see in the comparison RFC:

"0" == "0.0" | true

Do strings really compare like that, or is that a typo?
 
I'd like to be told that it's all not actually that much of a concern And why and why it's good to always hard fail
 
10:01 AM
@Derick they do
 
@IluTov Are you sure I can't convince you to talk about the language feature that you've proposed and/or are proposing for the podcast?
@NikiC Indeed. That's... odd :-)
 
@Derick The technical term for string comparison in PHP is "batshit insane".
 
@NikiC sorry, wait for what?
 
@salathe here you go, your list is outdated already :P
 
Fine, pin your own fucking message. Yeesh.
 
10:07 AM
0 · 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · 5 · 6 · 7
Here ya go. Now zero-based due to laziness :P
I think apart from the 8 in voting, there's only 3 more RFCs targeting PHP 8 left...
"only"
 
11:02 AM
@Derick Nah probably not ^^ Public speaking (no matter the setting) makes me very uncomfortable. Since I'm working on php-src in my free time I want it to be fun instead of becoming a chore.
 
I gotta one problem with PHP 8: I need a workshop to present it, 50min talk is impossible
 
cmb
11:38 AM
@bwoebi I don't think so. OTOH, garbage in - garbage out isn't the best solution either (and might be even dangerous). Maybe some fine tuning can still be applied, though (not sure about the empty string). Anyway, your pow() example hints at an implementation bug: we don't check the return value of pow_function.
@NikiC, twitter.com/PHPRFCBot/status/1284069340266983424 looked pretty strange to me. :)
 
11:59 AM
@IluTov Fair enough, but I would like to talk to somebody about the features though. Would you have an idea who could be a good stand in?
 
@Derick I could do it as helped a bit with the words on the RFC.
 
Thanks! Would you have some time on Monday?
 
좋은 아침
 
@Danack LIke 11 BST?
@Tiffany Prynhawn da!
 
12:15 PM
@cmb yes, that bot doesn't handle renames...
 
cmb
maybe change the status back to draft?
 
@Derick afternoon would be better for me. I need to double check my availability though. Can you do me a favour and send your notes for what to talk about so I can prepare my responses also.
 
Early afternoon? Say 14:30 ?
And of course I will send you notes (once I've written them). Going for a walk first and then sort that
 
@bwoebi From my standpoint and the projects I work on, I always prefer exceptions to unforeseen data interactions. One inconveniences a user, one could potentially wreck the entire system.
 
12:55 PM
@Danack Cool :)
 
@cmb yes mentioned that in my reply … was my bad.
 
@MarkR I never had that happen, and for that purpose we have extensive logging about what is being changed… blocking users is far more critical. IMHO, if it's critical that no garbage might ever produce bullshit - you can opt-in to handling Warnings as exceptions via exception handler. There is no way to opt out from TypeErrors though. (\cc @cmb)
 
You can still catch them tho
 
cmb
you shouldn't catch TypeErrors – either we see them as errors, or not
 
1:07 PM
yes.
 
I do get your opinion, I just think that in 99% of cases you want it to blow up
 
Because … at what level would you even catch that?
 
@cmb Sure you should not, but you can :')
 
If you catch it everywhere then it completely misses the point - if you catch it at root… well, the user is still blocked from doing anything
 
I was thinking more as a band-aid for the specific case you're mentioning and could then jump into a slow path for handling it until you refactor it "properly"
 
1:24 PM
@Girgias I mean let's say … I have this old application, with hundreds of thousands of lines of code. How am I supposed to find the old places where this now might throw a TypeError?
I have no idea even where I'd need to apply the bandaids
when I would know where I could also just validate properly
 
Sure, but assuming you are logging you should have a vague idea where stuff is
 
@bwoebi in combination with PHP 7.4 not throwing deprecation errors for this it is really nasty, i agree
 
@beberlei It is already a Warning since 7.2
Or even 7.1
 
oh ok, then i am fine with it :D
i need to carefully read both "sane" RFCs, i think they should have been brought up before 7.4 so that we could have made better migration path
 
@beberlei the problem is not where it already triggered, but where it hasn't yet triggered the warning
 
1:29 PM
@bwoebi not sure, if you run code in production for a few months and never see the warning, convfidence should be high or not?
 
Well Nikita was waiting on Andrea to finish the trailling whitespace one, which she let me take over 2 month ish ago which she dropped because it needed more work, which kinda resulted in that saner numeric string RFC
 
@beberlei you'd think that … I get at least every week a new warning
 
but isnt it more scary that the code continues after the new warning occurred? :D
 
All E_NOTICESs should become E_WARNINGs (except odd cases for type declarations) and all relevant E_WARNINGs to TypeErrors it is the "best" way I managed to figure out, sure would have been great to have another 3 months to think about it but :(
 
@beberlei no, because there's no proper try/finally handling … and it's bad when subsequent operations are not cleaning up
PHP makes it easy to write simple applications which do not need a lot of handling
 
1:32 PM
@Girgias not faulting you, its just a risky thing overall to change this behavior, and our process doesn't enforce a more careful approach
 
I do not want to write formally correct code for everything because it just bloats a lot
 
@beberlei I think for PHP 8.1 I want to revist Zeev and co's RFC for a new set of type juggling rules
 
If you write an ecommerce application, then be as strict as possible. If you write a game? A minor hiccup does not break everything critically. If your players cannot play because of breaking errors? that's bad though
It strongly depends on your target audience what makes sense … and up until now you could just opt-in… but you cannot opt-out anymore with these RFCs
 
hi, die() is an alias to exit(); I have a script when somebody writes just "die;" - what is the point of that?
 
@AndyRogers a joke?
 
1:36 PM
"exit — Output a message and terminate the current script"; so I guess this terminates the current script; what is the differentce between this and not using it at the end of a script?
no, just wondering
 
@Derick pencil me in for then, but need to double check real life events.
 
I've just gotten acess to this chat, I have not been here for like 2 plus years; I've been learning PHP since 3 years, with breaks, something like 20 months of edu, so far
 
@Girgias I currently have configured - staging: all errors blow up. Production: log it, take care of it and if anything broke, clean up afterwards
 
I mean "die;" at the end of a script versus nothing
 
@Girgias I'm fully okay with stricter behaviour by default … but not being able to opt out cracks me up a little :-/
 
1:38 PM
normally we dont write die; or exit; (with no parentheses) at the end of every php file that we have and an instructor uses it in one file
so I dont get what is the point of this
especially without the message part, print a message and exit
 
@AndyRogers exit at the end of I file will necesarily terminate the process, if you just execute a single file which does no inclusion then they are identical
 
we could just echo something too, I guess
 
but imagine b.php:

echo 'b';
include 'a.php';
echo 'b again';
if a.php doesn't have exit at the end 'b again' will be displayed
 
ok, thanks
 
if a.php ends with an exit it will terminate the script
Now seems a rather dodgy thing to do
 
2:31 PM
@Girgias yes there were good ideas in there, should be revisited
 
Yeah, hopefully we can also get rid of ZPP accepting null by default with all the work (mostly @MátéKocsis) done to make them explicitly nullable
 
@Danack OK, CHeers!
 
@Girgias huh?
I don't remember that
 
I don't know how much of this is relevant and correct in PHP 8 as I didn't really have an in-depth look at the current state
 
@Girgias Looking at that table, doesn't this already about match what we have now?
 
2:49 PM
@NikiC Do we already warn/reject floats with decimal components for int type declarations? Because otherwise it would only be the changes to passing bool if my mental model is correct
 
@Girgias ah probably no
 
Well, one thing to do then for the PHP 8 release cycle :D
 
wiki.php.net/rfc/saner-numeric-strings#proposed_voting_choices => should be renamed to vote, since it's in voting :P
(or is it, it's under discussion again?)
 
3:10 PM
@Tiffany Fixed
 
I wonder -- is there really a reason to split zend_extensions and extensions anymore? Why not one extension type that can do anything?
 
3:34 PM
@bwoebi Eventually the bar has to be raised for everyone, for the benefit of the world at large IMHO.
 
It's Friday finally.
 
3:50 PM
@Tiffany I just always name this section Vote or Voting because renaming a section when it's "live" is dumb.
 
4:34 PM
@MarkR yeah, I'm fine to move from opt-in to opt-out, but not from opt-in to no choice
 
can someone help me out for this question
0
Q: How do I use Laravel Query Global Scopes

Abhi BurkI am implementing Laravel Global Scope as documented here but this seems to be not working for me. Below is my line of code in User.php model <?php namespace App; use Illuminate\Database\Eloquent\Builder; use Illuminate\Database\Eloquent\Model; class User extends Model { /** * The "bo...

 
hi can anybody tell me how to create multiple login system in symfony ?
it's not here in symfony cast
 
@cmb Currently my appveyor has "8.0.0alpha1" and "7.4.0" --- is there a way to make it use the latest release without me having to update the numbers all the time?
 
cmb
@Derick that would basically be github.com/xdebug/xdebug/pull/589/commits/…; needs to be changed in .appveyor.yml, though, and I'm not particularly fond of editing YAML files containing scripts. Will try to have a look though, unless you (or somebody else) beats me to it.
 
4:49 PM
thank you saved my day
 
Think you are looking for oauth2
 
5:01 PM
@cmb That Pr doesn't really touch the 8.0.0alpha releases though?
 
5:36 PM
@SalOrozco no i'm looking something like admin and customer seperate login
 
The nullsafe vote does way better than I expected.
 
5:52 PM
That's nice though ;-)
 
its such a great feature
 
Yeah :) I just expected some controversy, not sure why.
 
Because nulls are evil.
 
changes vote to no.
 
We gotta get on that enum/generics monad train. :-)
 
6:01 PM
I need to read wtf monads are
 
@Tiffany My book explains it well, I think. :-)
 
I'll grab it when I've a job
unless purchase comes with a job
 
That would be an interesting bundle...
 
@Crell Implicit null is evil indeed. Luckily PHP got it right :)
Well, almost. Sadly we can't express something like Option<Option<T>>.
 
(Part of the issue is that they are about 5 different things depending on the POV you take and what you're trying to do with them, and they all look the same and different at the same time depending on which way of thinking you're trying to use.)
 
6:12 PM
@IluTov Haha, funniest thing to do with CompSci people when they complain about PHP: "Well at least we don't have implicit nullable types", drives them mad xD
Mostly because it seems Java is still the programming language of choice to be taught at uni
 
fuckin' Java
 
@Crell what's the name of your book?
 
@Tiffany you spoke my mind
 
"Thinking Functionally in PHP" : leanpub.com/thinking-functionally-in-php
 
My junior year of high school (2004), AP Computer Science was C++. The next year, they switched it to Java. I considered myself fortunate because I was in a unique position where I had the opportunity to learn two different languages... partway through learning Java: media.giphy.com/media/jSxK33dwEMbkY/giphy.gif
 
6:21 PM
We did maybe 4 months of any given language... never touched C or C++
Why in gods name they'd teach Haskel but not C/C++/.NET
 
C++ had its own wtfs that broke my teenage brain, but I still think I would prefer it over Java.
 
Can anybody please tell me what this meaning and use of this statement
Illuminate\Contracts\Http\Kernel::class
I know it looks like namespace
 
there's only so many System.out.println()s a person can write for a project before going mad
 
but did not understand kernel::class part
 
(ctrl-f ::class)
 
6:24 PM
@Tiffany I banged my head the most against the static initialization ordering fiasco while doing c++
 
@Tiffany haha what does that mean ctrl-f
 
@Exception find in page... depends on if you're in Windows though. If you're on Mac, then it's cmd-f
 
@Tiffany dude that is ctrl+f and not -
I was shocked
 
pffffft
I hyphenate my key combinations
@bwoebi I think the worst for me was understanding how to correctly pass arguments in class methods. After my teacher explaining it to me for the nth time, I thought I understood it...and I didn't...
 
Honestly, I think java/c# is not terrible. But the community? especially java OMG.
 
6:30 PM
C# is nice... Java is not C#
 
JaVa RuNs On 3 BiLlIoN DeVicEs
C# is sweet, but it's true power comes from the .NET library
 
In fairness, I haven't interacted with the greater C# community. I've bothered both the C# and Java SO chatrooms a few times with random questions, and they've been helpful. Especially C# since I kept bothering them with IIS questions when I was using IIS with PHP... in production...
 
I used IIS + PHP in production for 10+ years :-)
The only major issue I had was there's a memory corruption issue with either wincache or opcache
 
@Girgias Actually, some of the things I hated most in Java PHP still does 😅 Like hand-written accessors.
 
@MarkR I don't quite have you beat, but it was at least 5+ years
 
6:35 PM
A lot of what our platform did when we first started of it depended on the COM components for ActiveX
 
my problem at the time was I had zero familiarity with any web servers, and the sysadmin who was in charge of the servers had left... so they were dropped in my lap... so I was trained on how to use IIS
 
@MarkR We're finally switching to Linux/Nginx. We've had so many random issues over the years we could never truly get the root to. Granted, nobody was an IIS specialist but it shouldn't be so hard to get it up and running.
 
I think what I enjoyed with IIS was that there were two ways to change configuration - GUI and web.config file. If I had googled how to do something and someone only offered the XML to place in web.config, just had to copy/paste. The GUI (at least in 8+) wasn't that bad either.
 
Stuff like streaming a video bringing the entire website down. No issues on Linux.
 
@IluTov same happened for a friend, they had several IIS servers that they eventually switched to nginx, and any of the random issues that kept coming up while on IIS went away upon switching to nginx
 
6:39 PM
@IluTov It shouldn't be that hard... I can set up a production IIS + PHP setup in about 20 minutes from creating the VM (did so last week). That's an archived system now, and I've moved all our stuff onto NGINX / PHP-FPM (running fully in docker)
 
we had a temp file issue once... that's my biggest memory... no idea how the temp files they being created, but it'd fill up a folder to the point that even attempting to VPN into the server took ten minutes, but that was before I was trained...
 
I really didnt know pple still use IIS
 
@MarkR I mean, I can do that too. Just not make it run well ;)
 
@Ghostff what other options does ASP.NET have?
 
@Ghostff Came from our boss who was in charge of the company for 20 years and couldn't let go. He didn't understand Linux or nginx and didn't want our websites running something he couldn't control himself. He's finally letting go but it was a long process.
 
6:41 PM
@IluTov We ran a polling-loop API via it, 5 to 6 thousand requests per second (balanced over 10 servers). Reasonably performant... then as part of moving to Linux I ported the APIs over onto Swoole and now we hit 20,000 on a single server.
 
@Tiffany you cant host ASP on Linux?
 
@Ghostff might be able to now, what with MS's changing philosophies...
 
via Mono
 
Looks like it may only be .NET Core though
 
6:58 PM
I never tried ASP before, didn't even know it was platform restricted. I use c# but just for Unity. Maybe cos of my ecosystem I thought IIS was out of options, but apparently, its not.
 
With how annotations work, I don't think I'll be able to 1) parse the stubs out of a PHP file that I don't load into Zend and then 2) be able to reflect on those, will I?
@NikiC Can we please expose the WeakMap API to extensions?
I can probably do the patch; just wanting to make sure you either 1) don't have reservations or 2) explicitly say which bits you don't think should be exposed.
Worst case we (extensions) just go through the handlers which will be slightly slower, but no big deal.
 
 
4 hours later…
11:19 PM
Selenium Is throwing InvalidSelectorException for:
//(input,textarea)[@id='criteria' or @name='criteria' or text() = 'criteria']
Is this expected?
 

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