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6:08 PM
Can't seem to be able to log into bugs.php.net :-/
Username and password are accepted but then I'm still not logged in.
Now I keep getting "Please enable cookies so the Captcha system can work" errors.
 
@bwoebi if I'd add for eg data! macro without parents in front of class declaration then I'd be able to to transform whole class ast to feet my needs right? And an end for parsing would be eof if there's nothing more in that file would it be legal then?
 
Here's the bug I want to report: gist.github.com/sebastianbergmann/… Will try again tomorrow on bugs.php.net.
 
@brzuchal the trailing } of the class would be the end
 
I'm not sure cause we used to put a starting symbol right after!
 
@brzuchal what do you mean?
 
6:17 PM
data! class Foo {}
 
yeah, so from { to } is the third arg and end of it
 
With statement capture for macro
Yes with statement capture it'd work
 
@brzuchal statement capture always is the trailing arg of a macro I'd say
 
Does it mean it opens wide open doors for developers imagination?
 
yes that's the point
 
6:20 PM
So going further we could introduce also many language features by just doing macros
with! $foo { bar: true} ;
Using a wither under the hood
 
@brzuchal sugars, yes
 
Or by cloning and replacing a value using some sort of hack
I like the easiness of manipulating ast it brings
 
If done properly it'll be really powerful
 
@Tiffany lol- just a rough start for Monday. He always gives me a hard time about being so happy on Mondays. =P
 
6:37 PM
finally have something that represents what I look like...
user image
7
 
@Tiffany awesome!
 
6:49 PM
one of the better uses of 48 dollars :D
 
7:07 PM
eh
there was a time you could have got 9600 false ears for that
 
When should RFCs targeting PHP 8.1 go to under discussion status?
I'm not sure if it's okay to move on with typed class constants so soon
given that PHP 8.0 isn't even released yet
 
Don't see why not, just be sure to specify the target version as 8.1
 
Okay, thanks.
 
7:22 PM
@Tiffany LOVE IT!
 
7:40 PM
@moliata it would probably be better to wait for feature freeze. There's going to be a reasonable amount of drama, which could cause the conversation to be lost, and very little to gain.
 
I'd also recommend waiting until the dust settles. Mid- to late-August it's probably safe to start talking about 8.1 RFCs.
 
Anyone ever dealt with merge job issues (Microsoft SQL) from multiple servers?
 
7:57 PM
@Danack thanks for bringing this up again (re twitter). he dm'ed me with a draft of his revised blog showing 20-30% incresae in throughput with JIT (entirely what I'd expect), i.e. when you drop the load by 20% on his arbitrary numbers, then both are similar in performance about
 
I should move to a place that has a lawn, so that I can yell at the kids to get off the lawn.
2
Derick's example is the only one I've seen where the Jit provides an actually useful speed boost, and even there it's not a 'paradigm' change. i.e. it doesn't change a response time that needs to be pre-processed for users into a response time that can be generated on the fly......
and only barely affects the answer to "should we rewrite this in C?".
 
nikic pointed out the trigger=5, i tested lage hydration (2000 entities) with complex object graph with doctrine with it, getting 5.10% improvement. howver if i run the script with less entities its slower than baseline. so result is performance becomes unpredictable
not sure what happens once you run many different scripts that execute different code paths
 
@Danack the primary issue are all these safeguards
do an iteration over an array? you'll notice a lot of time spent doing bounds checking etc.
 
@Tiffany Fun!
 
@beberlei Thanks for your feedback earlier. Do you have suggestions on how to improve wiki.php.net/rfc/strict_operators?
 
8:32 PM
@ArnoldDaniels I like the proposal except for the "Comparison operators" section, I don't think that we should disallow string and bool comparison.
I think it's better to just disallow numeric strings.
 
Maybe. It would mean that the outcome of comparing strings could differ based on strict_operators.
 
@bwoebi I would guess that avoiding bounds checking on each loop would have a simpler way of solving it that the relatively large complexity of the JIT.
 
@Tiffany Done by an artist you know or did you find a service?
 
@ArnoldDaniels i am a skeptical about the edge cases on what and what not works with comparisons, it is already complex, now the declare increases that even more
 
@LeviMorrison I went on twitter and searched the commissionsopen hashtag, and found an artist whose style I liked: twitter.com/PrincessSkyeArt/status/1280215183286325251
 
8:37 PM
@beberlei The point of the declare is to remove all complexity.
I'm not really getting your point to be honest.
 
@Tiffany Did you send her a picture or what was the process like?
 
@LeviMorrison yes. I uploaded some pictures to a onedrive folder and shared the folder with her, but email attachments would've worked too.
she has a form to fill out and she contacted me to accept the work, I explained in the form that I didn't have any pictures publicly available, but I could provide them privately. Before invoicing me, she sent me a sketch of what it would look like, and I loved it, she invoiced me, I paid, and it was finished a day or two later.
she offered to draw me wearing something, so I said PHP logo or the elephpant, so she went with the elephpant :D
 
@Danack I don't think it's that easy…
 
@LeviMorrison I also said I wanted to use it on different platforms as my avatar, so she sent me a couple cropped versions. I went with the half-body, fully shaded, she included the avatars in addition to the half-body image.
 
user11867287
9:01 PM
Test 1 2
 
user11867287
Mic Check
 
user11867287
taps on computer
 
@ArnoldDaniels after giving this matter a bit of thought, I think strings and booleans should only be allowed for == and !=.
But only as Marco said, if both operands have the same type
So '1' == 1 would be an error but '1' == '1' would be allowed
 
If both operands have same type == becomes ===, right?
 
@moliata you can up-arrow in the textbox and it'll allow you to edit your previous message
 
9:04 PM
@Tiffany ah, thanks.
@Tpojka under current proposal, == becomes === and only integers and floats are allowed.
 
@moliata Under the current proposal == doesn't become ===
 
Doesn't it? The only difference is that integers and floats are allowed
 
Because 1.0 == 1, but 1.0 !== 1
 
Ah, I see, thanks for the clarification.
 
For strings '990000' == '9900e2', but '990000' !== '9900e2'.
 
9:07 PM
@moliata I am just reading your comment here and spinning the brain with abstraction. If you force something be of same type (to keep positive execution) it is trivial whether is == or === used.
 
@ArnoldDaniels Anyways, I'll send a reply to the original internals thread based on my comment (regarding strings, bools and ==/!= operators) since that is a better place for discussing these implementation details.
 
@Tpojka I'm not sure if I understand what you're referring to?
 
You want to allow == just for same type.
== is already meant to be used exactly for different types.
Primarily use of operation.
 
That is why this RFC proposes a new declare directive
i. e. declare(strict_operators=1);
 
9:15 PM
I mean not you but I just commented your comment.
 
@Tpojka yeah, I did get that part ;)
 
@Tpojka Exactly. Except for comparing numeric strings, comparing 2 arrays, and comparing 2 objects.
 
To be precise, I commented to this part but '1' == '1' would be allowed. :)
 
@Tpojka '1' == '1' is the same as '1' === '1', but `'990000' == '9900e2' is not the same as '990000' === '9900e2'
strict_operators could change the behavior of==, so it doesn't compare numeric strings as numbers. But that means the directive changes the outcome of an operation, instead of only throwing TypeErrors. And there is little benefit above using ===
 
And yes @ArnoldDaniels thanks for those primers in RFC (jaws left dropped).
 
9:53 PM
Argh, trying to edit a message on mobile is a pain... and can't sit at my desk because of pain -_-
@ArnoldDaniels this may be a very naive or uninformed opinion, so apologies. In my opinion, the additional complexity is because there's a new declare. Currently, PHP operators are... sub-par, yes, but the majority of their behavior is documented already, and with practice and experience can be understood.
I think one of the few benefits of having a new declare is for developers from strictly-typed languages having to write PHP, they can use the declare and hopefully operators will function the same as they could expect in their language-of-choice.
 
10:05 PM
Also this
Jul 9 '18 at 19:13, by Andrea
declare(i_opened_pandoras_box_by_suggesting_declare_strict_types="please don't suggest any new declare()s im really sorry")
 
10:48 PM
lol
/me proposes an RFC to just get rid of weak mode in PHP 9.
 
@Crell to be fair, I think some of Zeev's proposal about improving weak mode should be revisited
 
@Girgias do you happen to have a guess to how many people actually use it?
 
@Danack 80%> of the userbase as a rough estimate I'd say
Could be higher
 
@Crell What about getting rid of strict mode instead? (hehe)
 
False
 
11:05 PM
Where on earth is Zeev's document I can't seem to find it
 
@Girgias on a slightly less troll note, are the deficiencies regarding using FFI with 'things' documented anywhere? I looked in bugs, but couldn't see anything.
 
@Danack Don't think so? I don't have much knowledge about FFI too sooooo
 
I think Joe has touched on it a bit in here
 
Jun 12 at 15:28, by Girgias
Because FFI IIRC has a massive issue with callables and closures
@Tiffany yeah......but pretty sure he only wants to touch it with an axe...
 
Indeed...
 
11:07 PM
The FFI API is a total mess.
 
@Danack wiki.php.net/rfc/ffi look at the PHP Callback section
It leaks memory :|
Except if that got fixed
 
@Girgias do you mean less-than or greater-than? I'm too used to seeing < as the "less-than" sign and your statement is messing with my head
 
@Crell yeah....the person on the mailing list is proposing fixing it...
 
I'll have to go see.
 
@Tiffany Greater than 80%
 
11:09 PM
but it would be good for the discussion to be based around all of the known problems.
 
As it's the default mode, sure there is PSR-12 and stuff but most people don't necessarily even know about that if they just touch PHP, also old code
 
11:25 PM
Okay found Zeev and co's document: wiki.php.net/rfc/coercive_sth
 
> Unlike user-land scalar type hints, internal functions will accept nulls as valid scalars.
yeah, no.
 
@Danack that's the case currently
I learned that recently too
 
thank goodness for phpstan...
 
I think that would be one thing to tackle during the PHP 8 series
Throwing deprecation notices for that stuff
The only reason I can see why this behaviour is in place is because of undefined vars
 
Add enums, add a native Maybe monad, remove null from the language. :-)
 
11:34 PM
meh I don't know how you'll get that unless you make PHP completly functional but that seems far fetched
 
@Crell remove null? how dare ye!
I used to be in the "there are better ways to check for stuff other than null" camp but @Danack convinced me there are very relevant use-cases for using null, thus have changed my mind
 
Honnestly most of the return false behaviour of PHP internal functions should return null IMHO
 
(at least in PHP, other languages are different)
 
A Maybe Monad can happily exist in a non-functional language. Besides, PHP can be a functional-ish language quite easily at this point.
 
@Crell oh for sure, IF we get that PHP will be, I think, the only language where you can mix and match so many different paradigms
 
11:48 PM
You can already implement monads, they're just not as nice without underlying sum type support. (Via enum or otherwise.)
But yes, PHP's ability to play in many different paradigms is one of its big advantages. I'd still like to see a lot of improvements on the functional side, though.
 
For sure
I still hate PHP's array native functions which work with references :(
 
/me hisses.
 
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