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12:07 AM
I thought i'd ask here because it's not really like a problem so I wasn't sure if it was worth a devoted thread
 
 
2 hours later…
2:08 AM
 
2:21 AM
Lol
 
3:15 AM
I added a paragraph about ease of typing (which was brought up on Reddit) to the discussion section. Does it make sense to keep this or should it be dropped? wiki.php.net/rfc/…
 
 
3 hours later…
5:48 AM
Git mergin'.
 
6:37 AM
@TheodoreBrown not sure that flies given @ is hard on many non English keyboard layouts
 
7:18 AM
morns
 
7:38 AM
TIL there are companies offering "hosting" plans with support for php4.4
2
 
7:54 AM
@Stephen no surprise there, there are many hosting companies that refuse to upgrade or offer multiple versions, because they have many customers that are still on those versions.
 
8:10 AM
sm2 curve public key encrypt->key type not supported in this PHP build ・ OpenSSL related ・ #79677
 
8:24 AM
@mega6382 Ok and now I've just found a company that charges for private IP addresses.
Used car salesmen haven't got shit on these guys when it comes to scummy tactics
 
@Stephen wow, even AWS doesn't do that, and they charge for everything :P
 
@beberlei English (UK) layout is not even the same as US layout. The " and @ are swapped, for example.
 
@Stephen are they at least charging outrageous amounts of money?
 
@beberlei 48 CAD/year per private IP apparently
so ~$3 a month
seems pretty fucking outrageous to me
 
@TheodoreBrown TIL, left shift and right shift do different things…
 
8:38 AM
Not in KSP. The right one is used for speeding up physical time, the left one for increasing thrust. Never fun when you mix those up when docking a spacecraft to your station which you'd been building for days :S
Anyway, back to writing docs.
 
8:51 AM
@Stephen "You want 127.0.0.1? That'll be $2/mo please"
 
@MarkR I wasn't that surprised to find that a bunch of these places don't offer VRRP addressing. But when I couldn't even find info about private IPs and they responded with a price, I nearly sent them this in response: youtube.com/watch?v=5FjWe31S_0g
 
Gouge all the things
 
9:10 AM
@Stephen hmm, I wonder if he knew what he was talking about, I mean if the server is connected to something, it should by default have a private ip, should it not?
 
@NikiC code is much nicer in error notification callbacks with your change: github.com/php/php-src/pull/4555/files
 
@mega6382 not necessarily. Even Linode (who $CLIENT uses currently) default to no private IP, and all traffic goes via the routed (public) IP. If you don't have multiple instances in a single DC, a private IP is almost useless to you.
 
hmmm, interesting
 
and now I've just found a 'contact sales' form that limits the 'enquiry' textarea to 300 characters. Because why the fuck not.
 
@NikiC What do you think about making $a[?'b'] nullsafe and $a['b'?] => $a['b'] ?? null?
 
9:21 AM
@Stephen for 3$ a month you cannot read too much
hurts the bottom line
 
@beberlei different company :P
 
It's a little far fetched, I still prefer $a?.['b'] even though it's a little bit of a symbol soup.
 
@IluTov That's getting pretty subtle
As I said before, it should just be ?[] with the extremely minor BC break that entails.
 
@NikiC We have the same issue for ?()
I'm all for it but I don't think most internals will be
 
@IluTov That one is just completely useless tho
 
9:23 AM
@NikiC Yeah much less common I guess. I would've liked it for consistency but I can live without it.
Ah I think I'll create a separate RFC for the ?[ because if we add it to this RFC it has a pretty good chance of failing.
 
@IluTov Does $x?->y()() short circuit across the second ()?
@IluTov This seems like a good thing to have a secondary vote for
 
@NikiC It should yes
 
9:47 AM
ok a new even better WTF.
forget 300 character limit
how about no sales contact info.
 
like number or email?
 
right. they have a support email
or an "emergency" phone number
Austin Power's dad was right. Damn Dutch.
 
oi
 
10:02 AM
ok, WTF of the WTFs
I bet you can't guess the WTF this time
From the FAQ, about a VPS service: "Can I get a dedicated IP address".
"Yes, we offer dedicated IP addresses. Send a request to our technical support and we will provide you a static IP address."
so we've gone from charging for private IPs
to needing to request a static IP.
this industry is beyond insane.
 
@Stephen mmmmmmm - maybe chill out a bit? Asking to request static IPs is pretty standard....
for some hosting companies.
but if you don't like those people, both vultr and digital ocean are good.
 
@IluTov tbh, you could also just leave it for a future version of 8.1. By letting people get used to using this where it's really obviously needed, it will become clearer if it's actually needed for the arrays, and also maybe what the exact behaviour would be.
in other words, I think having a strong reason and desire to include something in an RFC is good, rather than just doing it because we can.
 
10:22 AM
@Danack aside from cloud, I've never seen servers not coming with a static ipv4 by default :o
 
@bwoebi there were very cheap hosting companies that made money off also being a registrar...and they would manage your DNS for you. But their tech stacks were cheap and shite, so they re-used ip4s for many different host names, and would move stuff around.
 
@cmb That's, how do I put it, interesting
Also I've abandoned trying to figure out how I broke the JIT and pinged Dmitry
 
10:38 AM
@Danack yeah, I've seen webspaces where you only had limited access of that sort … but real vps? nah
 
@Danack I think the need for ?[] is a little smaller than ?-> mainly because we already have ??. But ?? is still not applicable everywhere (e.g. $foo['bar']->baz() ?? null will still throw if $foo is null).
The semantics are mostly clear, as in it should behave exactly like ?-> does. The main issue is really just the syntax IMO.
 
my coffee hasn't taken effect yet, but would ($foo['bar'] ?? null)?->baz() do?
E_TOO_MANY_QUESTIONS
 
I'd rather use the syntax Danack just mentioned. The chainable calling shouldn't hide other errors
 
@Danack yes that would work
with his current proposal
At least my experience was that arrays rarely have array|null.
 
> Chasing BC breaks is a hard enough task for ppl to upgrade. Adding the
additional step of solving deprecations is extra work that is not needed
yet.
 
10:50 AM
@Danack Technically yes ^^
 
hmmm chasing them in two versions. Not sure I like it
 
@NikiC noob question incoming about removing the struct, i added it because it helps me not run into pointer messups, i tried this change but it segfaults, not sure where to set the right * and what variable to use: gist.github.com/beberlei/46caeb70620bcbe912179ce57b57b825
 
But you'll get a free headache with it :P
 
@beberlei The * before element->data is too much
 
Oh way, am I wrong? Maybe $foo['bar']?->baz() ?? null would work, I'll have to try.
 
10:53 AM
@IluTov At least that should work with your RFC I think :-)
 
@bwoebi I don't think so...
?-> is still an R fetch, not an IS fetch
Right?
 
Morning of Friday
 
@NikiC that still segfaults though
is the &cb in zend_llist_add_element right?
also segfaults with or without
 
@NikiC I think it should be an IS_FETCH, like currently is happening for coalesce
 
@beberlei *(zend_error_notify_cb *) (element->data); Maybe? ^^
@bwoebi That seems to unnecessarily weaken ?->
 
10:56 AM
@NikiC It depends on the context (whatever is passed to zend_compile_var). ?-> doesn't actually do an additional fetch.
 
?-> acts at a specific place, I don't see a point in force-suppressing errors with it
 
@NikiC I understood it like ?-> mostly being for chaining method calls?
like if (isset($chain)) $chain->foo();
 
@NikiC uuuk, fml with pointers, that works
 
and as such inheriting its semantics
 
10:58 AM
@NikiC zend_error_cb also has "const uint32" in signature, probably better to clean that up in another PR or?
 
11:30 AM
@Danack Dunno what to think about those, but they are funny
 
@Danack The specific constraints in this situation mean they're both a non-starter. It's either: I find a suitable non-US (company + DC location), or it'll be just moving the existing Linode setup to a non-US DC. Moving to a different US-owned operator has zero benefit over Linode right now. And to clarify, the non-US part is the client preference, hence the research.
 
12:06 PM
@Stephen in that case ovh.co.uk might be acceptable. though I haven't used them so can't comment on quality.
 
@salathe :D
@beberlei At least on latin-based layouts it shouldn't be hard, and I guess writing PHP in general would be tricky on non latin keyboards. But I removed the paragraph since the number of key presses does change depending on layout.
 
@NikiC question regarding Named arguments which pop up from lat ML - would it be able to call function with argument names even if they collide with usual php tokens like class etc? I mean if so then calling property_exists(class:self::class,'foo') (spaces cut intentionally) would be possible and weird, right?
 
12:24 PM
@Danack OVH is one possible option yep. Waiting for a response about the specifics of their floating IP / private networking capabilities.
 
@Stephen I've used OVH in France so they are pretty good, I do have one shared hosting with them so I maybe coud check quickly what you need
 
@Girgias do you see stuff about VPS' in your control panel if you're using shared hosting?
 
Let me check
I see my IPv4 and IPv6 IP addresses
They changed the interface from the last time I used it (cause I don't really go on it that often) but there are tabs for FTP/SSH, DB, 1 clic module install, CRON, email, and all the general information @Stephen
 
right I think that's probably all specific to your shared account.
it wouldn't make a lot of sense to have lower level networking stuff on shared hosting anyway
thanks anyway
 
Glad to be helpful :)
 
1:11 PM
OVH currently has some nice offers -30% for hosting, vps, dedicated, etc.
Just got an email about it.
/deals
 
@Girgias @cmb Any thoughts on Nicolas mail to avoid extra deprecations in PHP 8.0?
 
Normally when you add Todo in a comment then this is highlighted. Is there also something for adding notice or info that is auto configured like Todo?
 
cmb
I think it makes some sense, unless the deprecations hint at some "serious" issue. OTOH, users could fix the deprecations right away, and won't have to do that for 8.1. If in doubt, continue with RFC, and let vote decide. :)
 
@luffy it depends on your IDE, but you can usually set this up in its settings/preferences
 
@Tiffany I know We use phpstorm and Todo is auto configured I was curious if there was anything else for adding a notice without configuring settings
 
1:29 PM
Probably not...
 
@Derick can you review github.com/php/php-src/pull/4555 ? i think it would be a good candidate to move xdebug_debugger_error_cb there, because it would work around the case where a userland error return false; causing zend_error_cb not to be called, which in turn skips this debugging error handler
 
I was planning to reply to that one, I don't mind it too much for some of them, but, that may sound weird, it feels to me that some more "radical"/"major" deprecations should probably be in the 8.0 release (the ones I have in mind are mostly "Accessing static members on traits", "key(), current(), next(), prev(), and reset() on objects"
and "mb_check_encoding() without argument" because that one is clearly bogus) but that may just be me
@beberlei did you have time to have a peak at the test case I pinged you about.
 
@NikiC For whatever me input it worth here I would prefer to do everything in .0 so that I don't have to go through an upgrade twice
 
@PeeHaa Heh, I don't think that one is gonna happen :)
 
Postponing upgrade difficulties from a major upgrade to a minor upgrade doesn't make much sense to me either.
 
1:36 PM
It's very possible that we find some more whack stuff, the Intl roll() thing I saw that like 3 days ago
 
@Girgias no sorry, saw the ping on mobile, then forgot abot it :-( sorry
 
It's fine, it just a tiny detail, the biggest blocking point is still the JIT being broken :c
 
@LeviMorrison can you also review github.com/php/php-src/pull/4555 please and approve the PR if you think that is something you want to work with?
 
2:00 PM
So I made another shit-post: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/364794837167243265/718463974068191274/attribute-shitpost.png
Any idea what to add before I post this on Twitter?
 
@Girgias have you considered an alternative meme format? imgflip.com/memegenerator/102788737/Retarded-spongebob
 
That's also something I could do
 
@Girgias I didn't even know these IAP functions could be used on objects…
 
2:15 PM
Me neither
That one is from Nikita
 
2:37 PM
@beberlei I did look at that before. How can I move all of xdebug_debugger_error_cb there? Oh wait, not xdebug_error_cb, just debugger_error_cb
That's only a small portion though, I'd still have to overwrite xdebug_error_cb
 
@Derick one step at a time young padawan! :D
and your use case for overwriting it is actually valid, the new callback will allow 99% of other use cases to migrate away from it, giving you more control and less interaction failures with other extensions.
 
aye
 
@beberlei it doesn't change php_error_cb at all? There should be things in there that can also be moved to this?
 
@Derick there is code removed that was "around" zend_error_cb/php_error_cb only, because this is going to be called outside of it as well
moving code out of it would be a BC break, because then userland error handlers couldn't suppress that anymore by returning true (or false?) from their handlers
but i am consiering to suggest we move the log_errors code there
 
2:51 PM
fair enough
I don't really have any comments, it looks OK :-)
 
3:28 PM
I did not know about Triboluminescence
 
3:53 PM
@StatikStasis youtube.com/watch?v=QERlir8ia4U (Rebecca.)
 
I like watching those things do engine blocks.
Another good one youtube.com/watch?v=ugRc5jx80yg (Correction to link.)
 
@Tpojka Actual Rebecca moar
 
@Danack That actually sounds really good. Definitely another example of why it is important not to let any one thing/incident/attempt define you.
 
4:14 PM
@Danack My Rebecca vs your Rebecca? :D
 
@Danack Is YouTube broken?
> 5,208 views
Seems pretty unlikely to be so low...
 
@LeviMorrison Interesting observation. That doesn't seem right... especially since that was published in 2017. But I am surprised I have not heard of this video before now.
 
@LeviMorrison they made a music video and promoted that one: youtube.com/watch?v=sg4mUAQb17Q but I find the non-overproduced one more pleasant.
 
okay, 4 million is more what I expected
I'm not sure why I don't like the music in that song (not talking about vocals), yet somehow I like Send Me An Angel.
 
If it has a female vocal I'm probably going to like it.
 
4:21 PM
Not sure I'd call it a "vocal", but there is a female voice in there at spots doing ethereal noises.
 
I was referring to the other video @Danack linked.
female vocals, violins, ethereal noises, synths- love em.
Send me an Angel was awesome too @LeviMorrison
@LeviMorrison Did you ever find a good sawdust supplier? =)
 
Nope, but I gathered a lot of leaves last fall.
 
That works.
I bought a new Stihl blower last Fall that made "raking" easy. I just blow them all into my woods now.
 
Noisettes - Every Now And Then is a song that is actually underviewed.
 
4:36 PM
Says it is not available in my country. =(
@Danack Is this the same thing? youtube.com/watch?v=Ca-PzHArzGY
 
This video is not available.
 
Ha! Interesting.
 
@StatikStasis the music video version is.....the version you should watch first.
 
@StatikStasis VPN :P
 
@StatikStasis involves a drive in the countryside in case you look at the wrong one. Germany maybe: mtv.de/musik/videoclips/hcpx7j/Every-Now-And-Then
 
4:41 PM
@Tiffany I've held off on paying for one for a while.
 
It can be useful
@Danack unexpected ending
 
Well in lieu of that, have one that definitely isn't the theme song running in my head.
@Tiffany yes.
 
I have to be in the mood for that one.
 
@StatikStasis wait for it...
 
Those terrorists make great drummers!
 
4:53 PM
Oh dear
 
=D
Low hanging fruit.
 
@StatikStasis alternatively (but listen to Weight first)
 
Not really my style of music.
 
Neither?
 
I like the weight one.
 
4:56 PM
:D
 
The second one reminds me of something @Gordon might like.
 
@StatikStasis probably worth noting that Weight is much calmer than most of their stuff
But that song is intoxicating
 
5:22 PM
@NikiC I'm wondering what to do with the functions defined in ext/zip. They use resources, while there is a ZipArchive class... So could we deprecate them as part of the PHP 8.0 deprecations? Unfortuantely, Remi didn't answer when I posed this question in a PR.
 
@MátéKocsis zip_close ( resource|ZipArchive $zip ) : void and then give a deprecation message on the resource being passed in ? And remove the resource at an appropriate time.
 
@MátéKocsis Without taking a closer look, can the resource just be replaced with ZipArchive?
We did something like that for XmlWriter I think
 
@Danack Yep, that's also a possibility :) Although we could also simply change the resource to an object (ZipArchive in this case) like we did for 5+ other extensions
@NikiC I only took a quick look yet, but it seemed so. I'll try this :)
 
5:46 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/gx953h/do_we_need_call_user_func_nowadays_at_all/ // call_user_function

Just saw that pop up, discussion on deprecation came to mind.
 
6:07 PM
call_user_func_array has some weirdness with references IIRC, so I may support deprecating that function, but I am not aware of any issues with call_user_func.
 
Looks like Nikic already answered it
It might have been call_user_func_array I was thinking of, I seem to remember talk of it being an issue if re-adding call-site references.
 
6:33 PM
I'm back at wanting to deprecate half of an extension
 
Let's just deprecate PHP instead
10
 
All the procedural funtion variants for the Intl Classes are driving me insane
And the worst is that not even all the classes have a procedural equivalent
 
@NikiC Are you trying to get Z to come in and claim victory? :P
Sigh, back to the slog. 15 hour days are getting tedious, but at least i'm getting to convert things to Typescript now \o/ toodles
 
7:32 PM
@NikiC Do you have any ideas for allowing == and != for all types with strict operators? All options seem kind of bad :-(.
https://github.com/jasny/php-rfc-strict-operators/issues/2
Only allowing == and != for numeric types (int, float), makes the RFC a lot simpler. But I think it's weird and unexpected. Also, there is no way to compare objects by attribute in that case.
 
 
2 hours later…
9:29 PM
Good evening everyone. Someone indicates a website or video that explains how to configure Netbeans 11.
html5 + php + css + sql
 
9:45 PM
Anyone know what specifically causes PHP Warning Packets out of order?
 
9:57 PM
@Girgias found the dom mistake, its simple fix
 
10:19 PM
@beberlei okay thanks :) was it again a weird zend_bool usage?
 
10:56 PM
@Erdss4 what version of PHP are you seeing that on? stackoverflow.com/questions/19389809/…
 
@Danack PHP 7.4.6, I'm also using Swoole
 
@Tiffany possible of interest btw ^^ as apparently emulated statements work better for something.
 
@Erdss4 MySQL?
 
@Erdss4 maybe open an issue for this if you have a reproduce case btw as although people suggest what to do to make it work, that kind of could do with a better error message, if you're doing something wrong: bugs.mysql.com/bug.php?id=68359
 
11:13 PM
@Danack @Tiffany Yeah MySQL, was trying to experiment making a connection pool using PHP+Swoole. Seems to work for the most part but sometimes it fails on the ->prepare statement and thats when I get the Packets out of order error and MySQL has gone away as well
Usually happens when sending loads of request as I was stress testing it
 
@Erdss4 which version of MySQL?
@Erdss4 *_*
tell me more
 
5.7.30
And I am on Ubuntu
 
can you try on MySQL 8?
 
That's one thing I have not tried, pretty much everything you can find on the internet for 'Packets out of order' or 'MySQL has gone away' I have tried and nothing has helped.

I'm not sure if its the way I have implemented the connection pool or if its to do with PHP PDO or MySQL itself, although I can't see what would be wrong with my connection pool code
 
going by stackoverflow.com/questions/19389809/…, MySQL 5.x relies pretty heavily on emulated prepared statements in PDO, but it was improved in MySQL 8
that is to say, native prepared statement support was improved in 8
 
11:20 PM
@Erdss4 "the way I have implemented the connection pool " oh. You build your own connection pool?
 
@Danack ?
 
Connections have state on them, particularly around iterating over results....packets out of order is a connection pool type of bug.
(probably)
 
Yeah I saw that some people had better luck with emulated prepared statements on, I tried that just for testing (as I don't want them on) and I still get the funny errors, although maybe I should try turning them on again as I have changed a few things since I last tried haha

I'll see if I can go install MySQL 8
@Danack Yeah, I'm just mainly doing it to experiment with PHP+Swoole and I thought it was not that hard as its only storing connections and giving them out and putting them back etc.
 
an android developer here?
 
But yes this only happens when I use the connection pool, if I just recreate a connection for every request, I don't get the errors I mentioned
 
11:26 PM
@HamzaEzzaydia You are in a PHP room, have a look in the dedicated room or Java
 
One way I sort of got round it was try catching the MySQL 2006 error and just reconnecting again but that feels like a hacky fix and it usually happens a lot when loads of requests are sent
 
@Erdss4 yeah. There's some things that can be shared on one connection and other stuff that can't be is my understanding. maybe look at using github.com/open-smf/connection-pool
 
@Danack ooo cheers! Not seen that one! I have looked at the another connection pool by the actual Swoole team but it is very basic and they seem to just reconnect whenever there are 2006 MySQL errors
But when I get those errors, I am testing by running two SQL update statements
 
> they seem to just reconnect whenever there are 2006 MySQL errors
 
11:52 PM
@Danack The project you just linked seems to start connection pools for each worker which is something I don't do, I just changed it so that the pool is created in the 'WorkerStart' event and now I don't get those errors no more haha
 

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