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2:00 PM
I've toyed with the idea of an explicit struct syntax many times in the past; I always come back to "but I would want that on classes, too" for just about everything except the passing semantics. That's why I've mostly soured on the idea.
 
Ugh apparently we don't allow trailing comma in parameter lists
 
@Crell agree with services, but they mostly got only few arguments in most of my cases 2-5, but in case of commands, queries, events, DTO's way much more - so here it would introduce a lot of mess which where they could be easily turned into named structs, right?
@Crell About the Value Objects they most of the time got named constructors eitherway, so don't even need a public ctor.
 
2-5 arguments repeated across 100 service objects is still a crapload of unnecessary typing. :-) I ran smack into that first hand and second hand during the Drupal 8 cycle, where we were converting procedural programmers to OOP. That was one of the major pain points.
I don't see how promotion and named params introduces a lot of mess. The calling code looks almost the same as the initializer proposal, and the code in the class is essentially one extra line to say __construct.
 
Agree here, so it depends on the code base and type of project, in most of my codebases there's more of command, queries, events and DTO's than services
 
2:05 PM
I don't know that's true.
My point is that we should be looking for a solution that solves both cases, not just one.
And a solution that only works if you have public properties is, IMO, a non-starter.
 
Why not have two specialized solutions for both two different use cases?
 
Because they're not really two separate use cases. That's my point. :-)
In either case, it's a product type for which you want to provide the values for all the inner properties in one shot, in arbitrary order, with the minimum amount of typing. That's true whether the object is a service object or value object or a OOPy "both".
 
hi
Anyone familiar with regex?
I have a question :) Thanks
 
@NikiC What I really was trying to get at with "struct" that it's just a special type of class. If we make it a byval one, with reasonable intialiser, no constructor magic, no inheritance, and methods, would that work?
 
@sherlok222 As little as possible. :-) Don't ask to ask, just ask.
 
2:08 PM
@sherlok222 Just ask your question. See the top right corner of this screen
 
@Crell so where they're similar? by-value vs. by-ref, close principle vs open principle, no need for inheritance vs good to have inheritance, property visibilities vs. no visibilities - where? all of them shows they're not the same use cases
 
I... would be against structs that have no inheritance or visibility.
 
Okay thank you :)
preg_replace('/[^0-9.]{2,}/', '', $string);
 
@Derick that is the idea, and I really would love it to see happening
 
That gives them a super narrow use case, and so we'd still see plenty of value "objects" rather than structs, so the problem still needs to be solved there.
 
2:09 PM
i want replace everything expect two digits and . next to each other\
but no idea
for example if i have a number 12.34 and test2 in string
this takes 12.342
i want just 12.34
 
@Crell no one cares about structs visibility in C and C++ and as in other languages and inheritance
 
Go and Rust do.
 
Im fighting with this for an 2 hours :)
 
And Go does struct inheritance via a nice composition syntax (which I think most of us like, aka Nikita's delegates proposal.)
 
Go? where, please share a link cause I was checking it last time, maybe it has changed in last 6 months
composition is not an inheritance
that's just inlining fields from other structs which has also a place in my concept of structs
 
2:12 PM
Go values are package-visibility if lowercased and public visibility if Uppercased. That's what I was referencing back when I first got here an hour ago. :-)
 
@Crell Ok, now I get it, but that's a completely different feature which can be applied into functions, classes and structs and if that's what you fear with visibility it doesn't collide - I though you're on saying visibility of fields in structs is important so I was way much more confused, caus estructs in terms of their fields doesn't care about fields visibility - no need for considering it
 
And Rust has the pub keyword with roughly similar semantics.
 
@Crell I get it, but it doesn't collide, right? it's just a super feature on top of all kind of symbols
@Derick nice, but I found it to be annoying after I start over discussion and forgot to turn it off :P
Do we agree here @Crell ?
 
The problem space exists either way. You don't want "someone else's code" messing with certain variables. Go and Rust solve it at the package level rather than the "object" level. PHP currently solves it at the object level, and has no package level. Thus, arguing that we remove it at the object level means we don't solve the problem at all. Referencing Go/Rust as not needing it is incorrect, because they DO need it, they just solve it at a different layer.

There's a good argument that solving it at the package level is a superior solution anyway, but that's a whole other discussion.
 
@brzuchal uh what. People care very much in C++. C just doesn't have visibility
 
2:17 PM
@NikiC about the need for methods on structures, they don't exist in Rust either, right? they're only functions invoked ON structs, yes?
 
C++ has about twice as many visibility modifiers as PHP/Java does...
 
@brzuchal No, rust also has inherent methods
They're just defined inside a separate impl block
 
A method is a function invoked on a struct, just syntactically specified inside the braces. :-)
 
@NikiC Ok, could you ref so I can read? If no it's ok I'll try to find it
 
Both C++ and Go do "methods" as simply functions one of whose values is special.
 
2:18 PM
So it's like a closure put as a final field in struct?
 
@NikiC C has symbol visibility within the same compilation object though?
 
@NikiC Got it thx.
 
@brzuchal A point I make in the book I have written but not yet published is that a service object is isomorphic with a closure function that is closed over... all of the object's properties.
 
If anyone has a moment to look at this recursive problem (dynamic programing to solve multiple knapsack). Also, link at the bottom that looks like the correct algorithm and maybe a C++ implementation if you can help translate. Thank you! stackoverflow.com/q/60832674/1178523
 
2:20 PM
@Crell I see no relation to structs
 
I'm saying "Those things you keep saying structs don't need, I think they do."
 
Ok, gimme some arguments then please cause I see them missing.
 
If we were designing from scratch, then like Nikita said on the list we'd probably end up with something closer to what Rust has today. But we're not designing from scratch. :-)
 
@Derick Eh, I think linkage is mostly orthogonal to visibility (and both are a thing in C++)
 
@bwoebi your thoughts?
@Crell But that doesn't mean we cannot evolve and should stick with what we do have and change nothing - other way we'll never get generics nor enums going that path.
 
2:23 PM
OK, here's some struct-like-classes from my PSR-14 library:
https://github.com/Crell/Tukio/blob/master/src/Entry/ListenerEntry.php
https://github.com/Crell/Tukio/blob/master/src/Entry/ListenerFunctionEntry.php
https://github.com/Crell/Tukio/blob/master/src/Entry/ListenerStaticMethodEntry.php

struct-esque classes for internal use only. But they do use inheritance. And interfaces (because we don't have anything better for sum types.)
 
@brzuchal uhm, on what point exactly? :-D
 
@bwoebi Dunno, running of arguments to debate for structs, hoped to get some help
 
@brzuchal I'm very clearly not anti-evolution. :-) But we also cannot ignore the status quo. If we added a new construct for struct/record that passed by value and did only some things that objects did, I give it about 14 seconds before people start asking for "just the one other thing" that objects have. And that will result in either structs evolving into being classes, or a steady barage of "but why can't we add just this one thing to structs"?
 
@Crell I see it could easily be two structs one inlining fields from another and with goods of union types you can type hint, is that enough?
 
2:27 PM
Well, that was easy. :-) Though we should definitely think through delegates and attributes, because I do agree those could make that syntax kinda messy.
Union types in this case would be a kludge.
 
@NikiC that was fast, I'd love to see someone willing to help with structs that fast
 
If I add another variant, I would need to add it to the list everywhere it's used.
 
@Crell As the Hack documentation states: > Don't hesistate to “un-promote” a constructor parameter if it later turns out that a different internal data representation would be better.
 
@Girgias You want to chat about floats and locales for the podcast?
 
Attributes could be supported, but I'd say if you've gone that far, split them off into separate properties
 
2:29 PM
@NikiC Sure, but "if you want to use annotations you have to type it 4 times instead of just once" is a great way to ensure no one ever uses annotations. :-)
 
@Crell I still owe you a mail too :-) What dates/times work for you?
 
@Crell Isn't that a win?
 
:D
 
No, I like annotations/attributes.
 
You absolutely shouldn't be using annotations willy nilly
 
2:30 PM
Certainly. But that doesn't mean we should make them hard to use.
 
i heard something about attributes? :D
 
haha
 
@Crell Yes, so then it means it's not the use case for structs simply, but all the places where you create a command, query, event or DTO you don't care about inheritance cause they most of the time are not related not interiting anything from the top and they;'re used only for dispatching a handler which is located by type match
 
@beberlei Go check the PRs I reviewed ;-)
 
But also asymmetric visibility would maybe get clunky in there. Less so than attributes, but I can see us growing the list of modifiers on properties over time. I'm just trying to think through all the implications.
 
2:31 PM
damnit
 
@beberlei What's the maximum range on that summoning charm? If someone mentions it while orbiting the moon do you still appear? :P
 
@Crell There's place for a nice readonly in there :)
 
Which still makes PSR-7 type objects harder for no good reason.
 
@MarkR this was just luck i have to admit, first time i looked here today :D
 
And PSR-7 is?
 
2:32 PM
"You can have a useful public property OR you can have an evolvable object, not both" is not a good decision to force on people.
@Derick The most popular Wither-method example in user-space.
 
that does not help
 
(HTTP request/response objects.)
 
ah
at least that RFC isn't passing
 
As for timing, I could do tomorrow except for 11:30 my time. Or Thursday after about 11 my time.
 
You're UTC- what now? I know you did DST already
so it's what, 09:34 there?
 
2:34 PM
Chicago, which I think is +5 or +6 right now?
Yes, 9:34 am right now.
 
I'm asking you what time it is :P
so UTC-5
 
-, right. The keys are too close together. :-)
 
Let's do Thursday at 11 CDT/16 UTC
or later, if you want. It's not like I'm going anywhere in the evening
 
@Crell What's your problem with $self = clone $this with {property1 : "foo"} or a similar syntax? (this is what I was referring to in my last mail) It could take visibility rules into account. I quite much like it
 
Let me verify that, one sec.
 
2:36 PM
@NikiC that RFC is not likely gonna pass, so no readonly discussion for next 6 months
 
@NikiC can I get named arguments … pretty please?
 
@MátéKocsis So the Rust-style copying? I'd be pretty happy with it, frankly, but not if it works only on public properties. (I'd want to get input from people like MWOP of course.)
 
Didn't Nikita write that the argument names then become part of the LSP checks? I think that's a pretty bad idea.
 
@crell no way it only worked on public properties.
 
@brzuchal So right there is the problem I'm trying to avoid. There's feature set A, and feature set B, and they overlap but are not the same, so now I have to figure out which subset of functionality I want, and if I want some of each, I'm SOL. That's a bad thing.
 
2:40 PM
readonly could be built as <<Readonly>> attribute if my RFC progresses ^^
 
@MátéKocsis Then it's a non-starter unless we can block public-write to those properties. (I'd prefer asymmetric visibility although the readonly flag would technically work in that case.)
 
@NikiC if those custom array types do not fit into narrow definition of struct which you said here chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/48935009#48935009 is there something still working against structs (by-val,no-inheritance,initializer,no-methods) ?
 
@brzuchal it's '6 months, without substantial change'. If the RFC is updated to address what people didn't like, it can be brought up again.
 
@Crell I mean, I want it to work with any visibility taking visibility rules into account
 
@Derick Well… you can enforce it - or you could do an 1:1 mapping by position
 
2:41 PM
@beberlei Yeah, but didn't think people would want that
 
@Danack Oh, I also only knew about the 6 month-rule. Thank you for the hint
 
@Derick i.e. if the arg at the second position on child is called foo, and bar on parent, then you could use both foo and bar and it would land at the same variable.
@Derick the only thing we'd need to disallow then is using the name for an argument at another position in the child … but I guess that should be probably fine
 
@Derick Erf, correction, looks like my manager just put a meeting at 11 my time Thursday. I could do 10 or 12 my time then.
 
sounds all very magical (and slow to check)
@Crell 10 CDT/15 UTC then?
 
I think 12 is better, actually. I am remote-keynoting before that...
(Sorry, I don't mean to keep shifting around on you.)
 
2:45 PM
okay. Works for me. Gives more opportunity for running over too :-)
 
:-)
 
@Derick why would it be slow? I mean, you'd just have a hashtable created at link time with all param names mapped to a position
 
lgarfield at gmail dot com for the invite please.
 
slower than not doing it @bwoebi
 
(Assuming Google calendar.)
 
2:45 PM
I don't use Google products
 
The last thing which I was thinking of with structs is casting, given a struct Person and Employe { Person; } which has inlined Person fields it could be possible to $person = (Person) $employee; and that's not possible with the classes
 
Ah, never mind then. The usual email I use on internals. ;-)
 
@Derick slower than not doing named params at all … you need a map from name to position in any case
 
exactly
 
@Derick but yes, it is a little magical, but avoids nearly all BC breaks
 
2:46 PM
@brzuchal ... You just described how inheritance works on objects?
 
hva faen. WHy is Reindl posting again
 
@Crell no, cause it lacks of the most important thing objects have - the behaviour
 
class Employee extends Person {} still lets you use an Employee as a Person, without any explicit casting.
 
and we do not have object casting and will never have
 
You want to disallow methods on structs, too?
 
2:48 PM
yes
ofcourse, it's only a container for fields
 
So, strictly less capable than the structs in any other language except C.
 
for typed fields
 
Yeah, can't get behind that at all, in any way.
 
it has type name and fields structure specified, what else is needed to dispatch a command, event or query or send a dummy DTO ?
 
Why do structs need to be powerful?
 
2:50 PM
I also don't get it why.
 
Gradual improvement. If I have a product type, and I want to add one little thing to it, I don't want to have to completely change it to an entirely different language structure.
 
What the Product is?
 
"I have a struct that would really benefit from a method... oh crap, now I need to convert it to an object, which changes all these other things." No, not a thing.
 
Yeah, totally agreed on that
 
The main difference being byval vs byref?
 
2:51 PM
I've blocked Reindl Harald from sending to internals, again
 
Product type: The category theory name for a struct, or what Haskell calls a Record. Same thing. Just a collection of other types glued together and nothing else.
 
Thanks @Derick how many fucking times does he has to evade the ban to get the message?
 
@Crell the main use case is what I said, gimme an example where you would want a method on command or DTO - please name one?
 
C has structs that are as you describe. C++ lets you attach methods to them and they become objects. Go lets you attach "reciever functions" to them and they become objects. Rust lets you attach functions to them, and they become objects.

Having PHP have both structs *and* objects that are different and incompatible makes no sense to me at all.
 
@Crell C# has and doesn't complain!
 
2:54 PM
It makes no sense at all then. :-)
 
For all those languages you've mentioned it is the only way to mimick an object. we do have objects in PHP so this is not the same, please don't mix it or it may confuse
 
C++ doesn't have objects? That would be news to C++.
 
@Crell note that e.g. in C++ "objects" are just PHP 4 objects, sort of.
 
(I mean, the Smaltalk people would probably say that, but...)
 
For me it doesn't make sense to introduce ctor-args promotion cause that could lead to overuse and produce a lot of noise and mess when too many properties used in ctor or when mixed with un-promoted arguments
That doesn't make sense to provide a feature which could lead to chaos
 
2:56 PM
I don't see how it could lead to chaos at all.
 
As I described above:
46 secs ago, by brzuchal
For me it doesn't make sense to introduce ctor-args promotion cause that could lead to overuse and produce a lot of noise and mess when too many properties used in ctor or when mixed with un-promoted arguments
 
ctor args promotion makes little sense without named arguments I think
 
@bwoebi Disagree. Virtually every service object I've ever written could benefit from ctor promotion.
Even without named args.
 
well yeah you're right
 
@Crell again that's a matter of project you write if that's a library or a self contained project, then amount of use-cases vary
 
2:58 PM
@brzuchal "Too many constructor args" is a problem that exists today. Promotion doesn't change that at all. And unpromoted args... we could add a requirement that unpromoted args have to come at the end or something, like optional params?
 
if spaghetti code is when everything is interdependent and has zero separation of concerns, zero architecture, what do you call it when 15 different files all re-declare the same logic, often multiple times within the same file?
I mean besides fucking stupid.
 
On Drupal etc. it does may make sense if they're much more services than small comamnds, dto's etd. but when you write a project on Symfony most of your code base is just some simple objects and max one handler for each of them and then only a couple of real services with 2-5+ dependencies
 
@Stephen "copy paste programming" probably.
 
@Crell That confuses me even more, what if you wanna add optional argument promoted to private or protected ?
 
2-5 dependencies * 50 classes = lots of duplication. ctor promotion on services makes sense if you have even a single dependency.
 
3:00 PM
Or just lack of separation of concerns.
 
copy/paste/paste/paste/paste perhaps @Danack ?
so, if anyone ever asks you to install and support "Sendy" for them. Say no. If someone ever says they wrote Sendy, hit them, for me, really hard.
 
The cause will be someone wants almost all of the code, except a tiny bit from somewhere else...and because it's not split into functions, the easiest way to do that is copy paste the whole thing then modify one line...
 
@Crell no, for a price of some weird rules with promoted and unpromoted and restrictions to if I can add optional arguments and to figure if they can be promoted or un-promoted. No it produces chaos
 
@Danack oh I wish it was that 'logical'.
This is pure unadulterated copies
 
With a single dependency you save literally half your lines: gist.github.com/Crell/da56109c4afba0d7d603724ff8f19ed3
 
3:04 PM
to the point that when I made a patch, to replace the repeated block with a function call (which essentially contains that original block but with the fix I needed to make), I can just do a find/replace on the ~12 lines of text and replace with one - same variable names, same everything.
 
And the more dependencies you have, the more of an improvement it is.

And you can make a "naked struct" by simply using public instead of protected there. Done.
@brzuchal Example please. I don't understand what you're describing or how it gets complicated (other than "well you're just abusing a feature, stop doing that you nitwit", which can be true of literally every feature ever).
 
@Crell well you do the same when I start with structs, right?
 
@brzuchal No, because you are artificially limiting structs to not have methods, or any of the other good stuff...
 
Hello everyone.
 
What @NikiC said.
 
3:09 PM
@NikiC but methods we do have in objects why to duplicate feature. What is the rest of other good stuff? Maybe I should read more
 
"Make it easier to use Classes as Records" vs "Make a separate, weaker Record construct": Given where PHP is today, I am 100% in favor of the former over the latter.
 
But you fear and reject opinions about the ctor args promotion leading to unreadable code with attributes and with combination with i promoted args
You're saying you like it and no matter if that has a downside it's good
 
Re: structs, would they get byval'd whenever they passed through a call context (parameter, property assign, return value) or would it be every assignment? $a = $b style.
 
@MarkR Every
 
@brzuchal More a matter of those downsides being minor
Personally I'm not even particularly bothered about having attributes in the mix
It looks pretty much exactly like you'd normally write, just with an extra public function __construct( at the start, and extra ) {} at the end, and an extra level of indentation. But the actual property listing is still going to look very similar
 
3:16 PM
I get it, but we should consider a wider user base.
 
Do we have the tools in the engine to allow that kind of assignment in a high-performance manner e.g. copy-on-write or would it do a full deep copy each time?
 
@NikiC not only, now I have to move it on top of the class before named constructors to see the properties
 
@brzuchal So...? I fail to see the problem
 
@brzuchal Show me a code sample of where ctor promotions would become unmaintainable that couldn't fall back to something cleaner just as easily. You haven't done that.
 
Books have a list of definitions to rely on first as well ;-)
 
3:18 PM
"fear and reject opinions" is rather strong.
 
Btw, @brzuchal is the only person in this chat I usually keep on the "ignore" list. Do with that information what you will. Going to re-establish the status quo now.
 
cmb
@MarkR why not CoW semantics?
@NikiC yep, wiki.php.net/rfc/… didn't pass
@Derick but this is irrelevant for struct members
 
You keep arguing my ideas with structs are bad with no specific counter argument so I can have opinion without counter arguments as well.
 
cmb
@Crell C structs certainly can have "methods"
 
A "struct class" declaration or "byval class" declaration or similar to say that instances of a given class should copy-on-write would get us that functionality, without any forking of other behavior.
 
3:21 PM
@cmb Yeah, that pattern is quite common: github.com/xdebug/xdebug/blob/master/src/lib/set.h
 
@cmb You mean int foo(&this, whatever) {} style?
 
@cmb yeah, I could add Closures to PHP structs … but that's nonsense quite?
 
IMO when you list 15 properties and add 15-20 annotations with an extra blank lines it's gonna be quite long signature. I see a problem in that, that's it.
 
Yeah, I've seen that a lot. Palm OS was almost entirely that pattern. :-) (I'm reasonably sure that's how C++ came by its object/method implementation.)
@brzuchal As Nikita said, even in the worst case it's the exact same block of properties as you'd be writing anyway, just with commas instead of semicolons. And you'd put one extra line before it/
 
@cmb I'm thinking of where reads might have side effects (__get and friends)
 
cmb
3:27 PM
Well, I think having full fledged byval objects might open up a can of worms.
 
@Derick record the interviewer portion, then record the interviewee portion after :P
but you'll have to splice the audios :/
 
cmb
"Hi, I'm Derick. Today I'm talking with Derick. Hello, Derick. How's it going?" ;)
 
:D
 
hehe
 
That would be a great episode.
Or you could get Nikita to interview you for a change?
 
3:32 PM
that would be entertaining
 
There's always someone willing to demotivate others. I'll better put that on a shelf for next 6 months.
 
> Type casting while array destructuring
... why would you want casts instead of regular type checks, like parameters?
 
@Crell What I can do, is let the person who emailed ask the questions
 
@Tiffany that actually works really well - youtube.com/… the trick is to snip off small bits of the audio, so the two 'people' speaking overlap slightly.
 
I want to formally propose array destructuring as a way forward with named parameters.
But I don't want to deal with the RFC discussion mess right now
Any takers?
 
3:46 PM
.oO( Crickets )
 
Yeah, figures.
 
i have my own RFCs to deal with, i'd love to have named parameters
 
@Crell You'll get the email later tonight, if that's OK? Doing some other things now (hi Benjamin!), and need to re-read the email.
 
On constructor promotion: @MátéKocsis brought up named constructors, which my original writeup did not cover. I'm not sure what to do with those. @NikiC Have you any thoughts there?
@Derick Np, I already put it on my calendar to block the time.
 
@Crell I like how you misspelled Ergonomics as Egonomics ;-)
 
3:53 PM
<expletive deleted>
 
@Derick i read the PRs, but i am not working on this today. do you need feedback from me?
 
No.
 
@Crell me? :O What do you mean exactly?
 
On the list you mentioned named constructors, and "OK, so how do those play into ctor promotion and named params?" And... I'm not sure yet.
 
No, It wasn't me unless I'm having an amnesia :)
 
4:08 PM
"It's also because many people (including myself) tend to write static methods first (I mainly
use them as named constructors), so we'd either lose track of properties declared in the constructor or have to force a code style that puts the constructor to the top. Also, some IDEs (but PHPStorm for sure) can generate the constructorvery easily from the declared properties."

From 7 hours ago. :-)
 
I agree you can generate constructor easily, with named constructors moving properties into promoted in ctor only lead to loose track of them their on a different level of indentation so in most IDE it would be possible to collapse ctor and then be really confused then.
So in all those cases would be better not to use ctor args promotion. Which means better not use them at all.
And have a clean and readable code.
 
@Crell It is just about the place of static methods (that I use as contructors that have name)", nothing about named params. Michal had the same argument, too
 
I'm more trying to think through how we could make named static constructors still nice, or get some benefit.
 
4:37 PM
You cannot and as a matter of fact what is also a drawback class reflection would not have properties or all properties declared on the same line.
 
@Crell I don't think there's any interaction there?
Usually, if you use named constructors, you still have a (possibly private) proper constructor
So you'd use the "promotion" syntax in your primary (possibly private) constructor, and delegate to it in your named constructors.
 
True. I'm more thinking aloud whether named constructors could avoid doing

```
public static function ($a, $b, $c) {
return new static ($a, $b, $c, 'default', 'other_default');
}
```

(Or whatever they're doing.) It may be not worth digging into at this point, not sure. There's certainly a lot more variation in the way named constructors get used.
 
4:51 PM
If I have this JSON:
{
	"name": "John",
	"values": [1, 2, 3000]
}
and so the value of 'values[3]' is 3000 - what is 'values[3]' referred to as? The path? The name? (not specific to json, more a general question).
 
@Danack Path sounds reasonable to me
 
I am agree with niki
 
ta.
 
Does anybody know DNS and can tell me how often the root hints are updated?
 
I know Json Pointers are a thing, but that would be quite confusing...
 
4:54 PM
Maybe @DaveRandom ^^
 
Path is what XPath calls it, which is probably the best reference to leverage.
 
On to the bonus round! So would 'values' be a 'PathNameFragment' and '[3]' be an PathArrayIndexFragment ?
(aka improve those names if you can please.)
 
5:10 PM
Yes they're fragments and the full path is a pointer
 
5:28 PM
this kills the room.
 
lunch time :D
 
5:49 PM
Sorry @Crell don't wanna be annoying simply have some doubts regarding ctor args promotion and also felt like you simply was thinking over the that feature and anything over the objects and automatically assumed all what's related to structs is a bullshit. Sorry
 
Hi
This php script prints the last two lines !
class A {
    public function printItem($string)
   {
        echo 'Hi : ' . $string . "\n;
   }
  $a = new A();
  $a->printItem("PHPFAN");
          }
it prints $a->printItem("PHPFAN"); }
 
@PHPFan time to get PHPStorm.
 
@PeeHaa almost never. It's a config file option, and a problem for users to deal with, essentially
 
lol
 
@Derick Sure, when would you want to do it?
Also @MátéKocsis thanks for announcing it got side tracked :')
 
5:56 PM
When works for you?
 
Kinda whenever
 
Thursday 16:00 UTC?
 
Yeah that would be fine
 
it's infrequent enough that that there is no official computer readable feed of any kind, nor can I find any sort of published changelog, so basically I would put it in the "not a problem I need to think about" box @PeeHaa
 
@Girgias I will be talking about locales and floating point numbers. Make sure to read up on them ;-)
 
5:57 PM
I mean I know how they work a bit
Cheers for the link
I need to get up to speed also all the things setlocale affects ...
 
you're doing comp-sci!
 
I'm not tho
 
oh
lol
what then?
 
@Derick that's not fair though, I wouldn't wish internationalisation on my worst enemy, a mere student has committed no crime that justifies that punishment
 
Btw @Kalle still up for co-authoring an RFC about renaming T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to the already existing T_COLON ? :D
@Derick Mathematics
 
6:00 PM
Don't go there @Girgias
 
oh yeah, but maths includes binary maths in my opinion :D
 
Too big of a shotgun to my face?
 
the T_COLON one, yes
 
Haha well it can at time
 
6:01 PM
you might as well be asking to rename the language
 
There is :-)\
 
and tbf it is one of those historical quirks that add character, it doesn't really matter
@PeeHaa what I want is a changelog though
 
ah right
k
 
there's no point in going off to lex that file if it hasn't changed since 1998
 
aight
It did change though
Think I will just verify once a day
Doesn't hurt anyway
 
6:03 PM
for a server, sure
 
I almost wrote a somewhat working recursive server now
 
> somewhat working
welcome to my life
 
:-)
 
6:14 PM
@DaveRandom this is utter bullshit right?
> Any DNS server external to that domain that retrieved the authoritative response will cache that answer. The next time the server is queried, it will say that the answer it is giving is authoritative, even though it is not authoritative for that domain.
Even if cached it's still not authoritative
 
The output of my code is $v ; } ?>
 
it's a cached response from the authoritative server, it was authoritative
 
<? php
  public class A {
  public static  $v = "Hello PHPFAN";
    public function printItem($string)
   {
        echo 'Hi : ' . $string . "\n;
   }
  $a = new A() ;
  $a->$v ;
  }
  ?>
 
if you want authoritative you have to query the server named as the NS
 
Output is $v ; } ?>
 
6:16 PM
(but yeh it doesn't make a load of sense)
 
wait I see what they are saying
No makes no sense
 
agreed
 
22 mins ago, by Danack
@PHPFan time to get PHPStorm.
 
@DaveRandom Yeah I do the entire recursion dance
 
Which word don't you understand?
 
6:18 PM
I can't speak for whether anyone actually does that in reality
 
Neh probably just a terrible article
 
@PeeHaa I guess the different is in when recursion_desired is set or not
 
There are lots who get it wrong
@DaveRandom You?
 
@Danack At least now I havn't it
 
you can passively state that a cached/first upstream response is authoritative, but if the query explicitly request recursion then you should obtain a fresh response
 
6:19 PM
@DaveRandom Yeah,but I am doing recursive so it's obviously not set
 
and my code is a bit
 
@PHPFan just get it. You're wasting other people's time as well as your own.
You can continually get the EAP version for free - just need to download the new version every few months.
 
well
 
@DaveRandom That sounds wrong too
 
agreed
 
6:21 PM
recursions should just decide whether to handle recursion or not
Whether cached or not shouldn't matter
 
@PeeHaa my approach: find out what 8.8.8.8 does and do that
 
What do they know?
:P\
 
change some stuff upstream, see how long the cache is alive for and see whether the auth flag is set
 
7:03 PM
Question.. I just ran into stackoverflow.com/questions/9046675/… and visited peachpie.io/getstarted . Does anyone have an opinion on it?
 
 
1 hour later…
8:19 PM
@Girgias Shouldn't that be T_DOUBLE_COLON ?
 
 
2 hours later…
10:22 PM
@Code4R7 that might be a valid thing to do. Using peachpie as a 'faster' web server, isn't though.
 
10:42 PM
probably.
 
11:04 PM
@MarkR it should indeed, I just didn't remember it by head
 
11:33 PM
If anyone here is good with algorithms and knows C++, I think I found a C++ answer to my question, but I need help implementing it to my PHP solution: stackoverflow.com/q/60832674/1178523
 
11:52 PM
@Girgias Certainly! I wrote a quick and dirty patch for it: gist.github.com/KalleZ/e5be75fa515db625200df955d5d814b8
@Girgias We could potentially also mark the T_HEBREW_NAME as deprecated (think Nikita did that for master), but the TL;DR is that it switches it around so T_DOUBLE_COLON is the main constant and the T_HEBREW_NAME is the alias
 
@Kalle I wouldn't deprecated it just yet
The change is already controversial enough I'd say :')
 
I agree, hence why I just switched it around
 
Welp I suppose I should get on to write the RFC and make it as reasonable and nice as possible
 
I think error message clarity is the first priority
 
I think that's the main argument for it
 
11:59 PM
You should save it for when you have an RFC that you want to go under the radar, and use that as a distraction...
 
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