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11:00 PM
@MarkR this feels like rule lawyering, except there is no such rule
 
My point was, even the generally understood range for "a few" includes some values which cannot happen under current RFC requirements :-)
 
is four not a few to you
it used to be three, too
 
I'm okay if we want to make "few" permanently just be "three" or "around three". A handful can be differing between 2-5 as can several.
 
in any case I think you're being needlessly nitpicky here
four is “a few” by my standard. three is too. five is too.
 
and I think you're ignoring feedback about your post that points out there could be confusion about the timescales you've indicated. Hey ho \o/
 
11:03 PM
what confusion? it's written to a list that almost does nothing but discuss RFCs
the length of time an RFC takes to pass is not a mystery to the intended reader
Oh, you're that Mark R
 
Just so you know, I already got bored of discussing it with you and moved on to other things ;-)
 
@Danack It's a string; it doesn't matter.
 
I also have better things to do, I'm just… not used to people who are willing to rule-lawyer over rules that don't exist and which are completely immaterial anyway
 
@LeviMorrison It is a bit odd that the top example in the docs for it is how to get it working on PHP 4.3 or something like that
 
@LeviMorrison I wonder if it's so that implicit casts do the right thing
 
11:17 PM
$blah = time() + microtime();
maybe someone thought keeping that the same length as previous 32bit versions was important...
 
I don't think the microtime thing is a 32-bit thing
it uses floats for one thing, so it'd be the same on both 32-bit and 64-bit
my guess: it originally returned just a float, which was “microseconds that have elapsed since sec, expressed in seconds”
 
but then someone realised it didn't tell you what sec was
so there would be a race condition (if you looked up sec separately and it changed before/after you did so)
but if you make the return value a string, add a space, and then put that value after it… it'll be almost perfectly backwards-compatible because of type juggling, but you get that bonus data if you want it
obviously this is horrible though. they should have added a by-reference parameter or something
 
@MarkR I 'only' found 6 previous ones, so Ben's is the 7th one I think.
 
Ah yes, I can't count apparently.
 
11:24 PM
@LeviMorrison to sum up, I suspect microtime originally returned just e.g. 0.75 (microseconds since {seconds since UNIX epoch}, in seconds) but then someone realised it needs to also return {seconds since UNIX epoch} lest you get a race condition when calling time() before/after and the number of seconds has changed (time() + microtime() would sometimes be wrong), and this was a horrible hack to include this in the result without adding a new parameter?
 
Might be worth considering adding github.com/PHPGenerics/php-generics-rfc/issues to your generics codex page too, seems that's become the go-to point for detailing it
I think that's all I've got to offer as suggested additions for now
 
pull requests welcome....
 
Good grief man, do you think I'm made of disk space!?
 
This is related; I'm too tired to do it, and it's probably better coming from someone who does the work. But it's nice that people are proposing to improve processes, but they seem to be volunteering other people for more work, and for people who like writing verbose emails to 'supervise them'.
Which doesn't sound that fantastically productive. And the docker comparison is not great as docker has a (money losing) company backing the project, whereas php has people donating their own time.
 
@Danack so this weird person called “Andrea” or something wrote a presentation about “scalar type hints” and why they kept failing, could be good for your codex……… ajf.me/talks/…
(:p)
man, remember when Levi was a kitten?
I remember
 
11:30 PM
They grow up so fast....
sorry, evolve form.
 
press B! press B! goddamnit why didn't you press B!
 
@Andrea thanks. btw did you see gist.github.com/Danack/471036a5f03bc3c64c6027c207923e33 - I'm not going to pursue it, as I think the basic way strings work right now in PHP is not a good starting point.......
 
@Danack so essentially typedefs of a kind… I wrote this ages ago: github.com/hikari-no-yume/newType
I don't like it if there is implicit casting of them, you can lose the type safety that way
 
@Danack Yeah ... I don't mind "better" (TBD) processes, but sending (long and multiple) emails on list ain't really contributing to getting stuff done on the project which is kinda annoying u.u
 
On that topic... I still have no idea who Mike Schinkel is, anyone able to explain?
 
11:40 PM
No clue
Nikita said that apparently he popped up after he made the RFC as a GitHub pull
 
I usually go take a look at people.php.net but nothing jumped out
 
He deosn't have an account
He's only subscribed to the list
And I tried to google him quickly once
And nothing really came up cause the name is super common apparently
 
Yeah I did find that I think
But not really that helpful IMHO
 
When your urge to post on internals leads to sharing details on someone else's personal life for absolutely no gain to no one
 
11:52 PM
o.O?
 
@Andrea I'm not sure you gain much type safety with having to be explicit - gist.github.com/Danack/49c6e39a97cfcd978388276649682e7a The conversions will happen in the same place in the code, at the boundary between 'my' type system, and an external type system. Unless I'm missing an example where people would accidentally unbox stuff...
 
@MarkR Why the hell did he share that Ben moved to Tennessee? It's just weird...
 
@pmmaga wait where?
In the PHP 8.0 RM thread?
 
@pmmaga he thinks he's providing ben with credibility....when a lot more people know who Ben is than Mr Clarity...
 
11:55 PM
*cringe*
 
I mean, I don't know a lot of people in the PHP community, and I even know Ben cause he's quite relevant on Twitter
 
I was quite surprised Sara was jumping into contention for RM again. Although I'm quite surprised anyone would want to jump head-first into the wide open arms of the mob when they eventually see what we've done with warnings and exceptions in 8.0 :p
 
I suppose Sara is somewhat aware? I hope?
 
I have to imagine she's staying informed. I don't really know what she's up to since she got banhammered from twitter
 

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