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1:11 AM
Ummm... what's a good name for a set of connected paragraphs?
 
section?
 
hmm, that'll do. Thanks.
 
 
2 hours later…
3:48 AM
Didn't really like the look of editing XML. Thought I'd try making something better:

https://imgur.com/XcUEFkR
Trying to solve the translation issue by combining multiple languages into a single file. Sets of similar paragraphs are grouped, and it allows setting a translation for each, updating metadata in the JSON for the last update time for that section automatically. Foreign language docs which are seriously out of date can be visibly flagged, or show the english version of the same section instead.
 
 
1 hour later…
5:12 AM
\o
@bwoebi funding my personal projects/activities ...
it turns out I can't really provide the same sort of coherent arguments for myself as I can provide for derick/xdebug, sebastian/phpunit, or anyone else I can think of ...
I shouldn't really be doing this ...
I'm not sure if I should publish it ... it's not a fun read ...
if anyone feels like proof reading
 
5:29 AM
apologies in advance to anyone that tries to drown themselves in their breakfast as a result of reading that ...
 
 
2 hours later…
7:19 AM
morning
Happy Sunday All
 
7:42 AM
Hello
 
7:57 AM
@JoeWatkins i think you are trying to find a coherent argument outside of time = money, where this is what it is about. how much do you work as per contract? and how much time do you work for your employee and php combined? i suppose the later number is larger, meaning there is a gap of work on php ecosystem which you are doing unpaid
 
detritus geology : loose material (such as rock fragments or organic particles) that results directly from disintegration
 
@beberlei that is the basic truth of the matter ... I think wait for a better mood to take over me and do-over ... I did start out in that kind of place, this is like the fourth or fifth revision ... I end up in a place where I just want to tell the truth, why I don't freelance in all the time I put into contributing ...
 
8:12 AM
Any if you have plans for going anywhere for a conference in the near future? My boss says I can go to one next year if I want.
 
we're all going php barcelona in november this year ...
 
I'm sure annoying you in person is much more satisfying.
I'll see if I can go, as long as you promise me a banana hammock lap dance Joe.
 
That sounds logistically complicated
 
@JoeWatkins it has nothing to do with freelancing or not in my opinion, with freelancing you could very well be working 40 hours a week on client projects as well. and they are not as genorous as your current employeer from what I understand from a distance.
 
Joe...uhhh...uhhh
finds a way
 
8:19 AM
@beberlei the fact that I'm asking means I can't financially sustain my activity ... try telling my wife that this situation has nothing to do with my inability to go back to freelancing, she remembers me taking home huge sums of money while freelancing, more money than I had ever earned (at 20 something) ... and it doesn't matter that it wasn't reliable, it was there ... 40 hours is what I work for my employer, I tend to work about 60 hour weeks overall ... and I would do the same freelancing
but be getting paid ...
 
but most liekly not working directly on php
 
I'd still get time from work, but that wouldn't really be enough to develop anything though ... we'd loose out, so would I personally ...
 
Joe you ever tried seeking out a hosting company? That's what I did my first couple of years. They have enough clients looking for web deva it always kept me busy. I was able to hire a couple noobs for a while.
 
it's not a choice I can reasonably make, it's like asking me to choose between being unwell and well ...
I was somewhat involved in hosting some years ago ...
 
I mean if it's the difference between having money amd not having it
I sold my contracts as soon as I could. I knew it was a bridge.
 
8:32 AM
any job that you take, anything, it doesn't matter if it's working on a space ship, it going to become boring when you understand all the problems, when there's nothing left to ask ...
 
We have a requisition open but youd have to move the the US.
 
I can manage that, it's fine, I'll plod along and do my work to earn a cheque ... but it doesn't distract me, it doesn't do any of the things that contributing does ...
 
I was out of work for 3 months taking loans before I got this job and now I have a house. You're a better developer than me, I'm sure you'll be fine.
Also to be clear you're put of work right? Not just looking for a better gig?
 
oh well, you shouldn't misunderstand ... I'm not about to go totally broke tomorrow ... I'm getting by ... but at my age, I should be looking to buy a home, put my kids through university, through a wedding hopefully ... and I can't do those things without increasing my earning power ... I can either go take a job at a corporation and kill myself in a cubicle, probably before 2030 ... or I can keep my dream job with unbounded freedom and freelance to cover the difference ...
only I can't freelance because I'm ... broken ...
 
not sure you need to put it that way being broken, freelancing is just not for everyone
 
8:39 AM
My dad and uncle have been developers a very long time.
Y uncle since almost the beginning. The way he puts it is that working in code breaks your "give a shitter".
He works on arduinos and code at home, but he told me very early on that I would not be as passionate as I am now.
At the end of the day, were prettyucky to achieve the salaries we do and we should work to live not live to work.
Coding as a hobby is different from coding from a living. You can do both and effectively keep them seperate.
Deciding is just part of the gig.
Some of us get to be Elon Musk. Not many though.
 
Segfault on using RecursiveDirectoryIterator – #78583
 
9:08 AM
Thanks @niki½
Thanks @NikiC for the exif stuff :)
 
9:29 AM
i.ibb.co/xH9JC63/phpdoc-editor-1.png Next step is parsing the XML from a few example files from the SVN.
 
 
1 hour later…
10:42 AM
@MarkR tbf you should probably ping @salathe about that more than me :)
But you are missing a couple of sectrions namely: Error/Exceptions; Changelog; See Also.
The thing is also we have a *lot* of Entities to prevent us from repeating ourself, see language-snippets.ent at the root of a doc tree
But otherwise it is kinda neet :D
 
Aye I saw the &ref format. Don't expect it to be an issue.
 
Just telling :p
 
I'm going to spend another few hours on it, then i'll shove it on the ML for discussion, be completely rejected because it's different, and job done \o/
 
I know for the French doc we also added some more entities (notably to correctly translate <type>type</type>)
 
why would you translate a variable type?
 
10:46 AM
Because it is used not only in the function declaration
Sometimes you've got blabla blabla returns an <type>array</type> and it's just easier to have an entity to translate it
Well because there are well defined translations? x)
 
That seems arkward considering types are internally significant values with fixed names.
 
Well they are not translated in code examples but I don't see at all why it's awkward
 
Just seems no different than, for example, using a different variable name for a parameter, or a constant. It'd be different from what you see if you looked for it in the actual code.
 
What? I don't follow you there
 
Just that they have actual technical significance when writing the code, and with 8.0, reflection. Seems like something you would want to keep exactly matched up to the code.

You wouldn't tell someone to do

$img = imagecreerdescouleursvraies(...); (Google translate fail?) would you. Because that's not a function that exists.
 
10:56 AM
I'm not talking about doing that
I'm talking in translated text
Where integer is translated to "entier"
Or also in the return section where "Returns a string" is translated to "Retourne une chaîne de caractères"
 
I get what you mean, it just seems odd. "string" has a meaning in PHP, chaîne de caractères does not.
 
Well string also has a totally different meaning in French
 
tbh, it doesn't even have the programmer-used meaning in common English either xD
 
True lol
 
Man drowning in the sea: Help! I can't float!!
Programmer: Try moving your radix point!!
 
12:02 PM
Could you please populate $_FORMDATA? – #78584
 
12:34 PM
Morgens
 
o/
 
1:14 PM
It's been about 10 hours since I last mentioned it, so I just want to reiterate to my fellow programmers how much I hate XML. Parsing the docs is a nightmare.
 
cmb
xml_parse_into_struct() to the rescue :p
 
Tempting. I just wasted far too much of my day on xpath with namespaces... ended up just deleting the namespace tag :|
 
cmb
1:30 PM
xml_parse_into_struct() is nonsense. And the namespaces are important for docbook validation.
 
I'm trying to work on something to eliminate it, but it's probably not going to get anywhere, an interesting project none the less.
 
So all of a sudden today Apple Maps is reliably parsing my home address (in Thailand) as being somewhere 16000 km away, in Uruguay.
 
Well hopefully someone didn't manage to change your home address to Uruguay
 
on the plus side, they've also recognised our gravel driveway, as a street.
which, to be fair, our driveway is in better condition than a lot of the roads around here.
 
Fancy. Must be a long drive.
 
1:39 PM
... 100m?
 
That's a pretty long drive tbh. Mine is about 6
 
looks similar (more banana plants though) to this, complete with the strip of grass in the middle. s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/dd/9b/20/…
 
probably half that depth wise
Wonder if they use pattern recognition to detect roads or if they use some other data
 
I'd guess so. it looks pretty indistinguishable from the road in their satellite images
the district policy of "well the bitumen we laid ~6 months ago on top of sand with no road base/stone because we 'don't have enough budget', has predictably split and cracked the moment someone looked at it sideways, so let's just cover the whole road with gravel again" doesn't help, im sure.
weirdly none of the neighbours driveways, which have all been there for years longer than ours, are treated as roads. maybe they use traffic patterns of iOS users (at one point myself, my wife, sister in law, sister in laws husband and mother in law all had iOS devices, and all live in various houses on this block..
see this is the problem with opaque cloud services.
 
well as long as it doesn't send anyone up it on a missguided GPS trip
 
1:52 PM
Narrator: it does.
for main roads its pretty good here. but it has a bad habit of mistaking tiny back alleys and lanes and dirt tracks, as being viable routes
 
Just make the road ever so treacherous, a hidden ditch or two. Make some good coin offering to hoist cars out
 
it's wet season, if we get heavy rain it'll flood anyway.
a good ~6m-10m of the driveway was underwater for about a month or 6 weeks... last year? or maybe the year before, I don't remember.
 
2:45 PM
@NikiC for stubs where the function returns a stdClass but it's just documented everywhere as object, which return type is more appropriate?
 
2:57 PM
also, can someone help me understand when UNKNOWN is the appropriate 'default' (e.g. on an optional, non-nullable string)
e.g. in the c, there is this:
headers?ZSTR_VAL(headers):NULL
I thought the UNKNOWN pseudo-value was used when the default depended on a library value?
 
3:09 PM
I like these: No feigning surprise
> The first rule means you shouldn't act surprised when people say they don't know something. This applies to both technical things ("What?! I can't believe you don't know what the stack is!") and non-technical things ("You don't know who RMS is?!"). Feigning surprise has absolutely no social or educational benefit: When people feign surprise, it's usually to make them feel better about themselves and others feel worse.
> And even when that's not the intention, it's almost always the effect. As you've probably already guessed, this rule is tightly coupled to our belief in the importance of people feeling comfortable saying "I don't know" and "I don't understand."
No back-seat driving
> If you overhear people working through a problem, you shouldn't intermittently lob advice across the room. This can lead to the "too many cooks" problem, but more important, it can be rude and disruptive to half-participate in a conversation. This isn't to say you shouldn't help, offer advice, or join conversations. On the contrary, we encourage all those things. Rather, it just means that when you want to help out or work with others, you should fully engage and not just butt in sporadically.
 
You didn't include the benefit of... dramatic effect!
 
also, @NikiC re: the setup/config stuff from a few days ago - you set the prefix to your home dir - my initial thought is that people can just add flags like that as they wish (and they'll be passed through), but I wonder if it makes sense to set a default prefix to something other than the regular /usr/local? this isnt intended for anyone building release binaries right, it's meant to be a "hey if you want to get involved this might make it quicker to get up and running", right?
oh and, lastly... im guessing there's no magic happening by setting --disable-phar and then --enable-phar two lines later, that's just an oversight, right?
 
@MarkR I already something that would fall under on wiki.php.net/email_etiquette_for_people_new_to_php_internals as "Avoid using jokes, colloquialism, idioms and other 'clever' word techniques to make a point." and I can't figure out how to link to it because Docuwiki.
 
the irony that a wiki makes it harder to link to something else, than regular markup.
 
That sounds like a very dull, robotic way of communicating between peers Danack
 
3:15 PM
Yes. Simple words are easier to process and avoid people escalating arguments in a 'battle of wits'.
 
Especially when working with developers who don't share a native language the idioms that make sense to you could sound completely nonsensical to others.
 
How very dare you make a joke. To the tower with you, off with your head!
 
with the way the list has become lately, I can very much see their point Mark. People already take plain English and twist it to mean the literal opposite of what's intended.
 
Or, for some of the idioms that people use, from the other side of history than the idiom is based off of. For example, "Remember the alamo" has quite a different perspective if you're Mexican, and remember that that war was about Texans wanting to introduce slavery into what was Mexican territory.
 
Add sarcasm to that, and holy shit is that gonna get ugly.
 
3:19 PM
@Derick I am aware. We have users that don't use autoloaders at all, and we don't want anyone to have to alter their code to enable tracing.
 
@Danack That's a really good point
 
The reality is, there will always be some people who will find a reason to be offended. Like my nuke comment, you turned it from a commonly used description of something of huge force, to think of all those dead people and burning bodies.
 
For me, anyway, it isn't necessarily about "not offending" other people but simply practicing empathy. It is really hard to empathize with a human being through a computer screen and I believe it is a skill you have to actively practice and train, just like any other.
 
I tried empathy once... didn't like it very much.
 
3:35 PM
@MarkR Let me put it like this. There are two different levels for advice about 'etiquette'. There are improvements that aim to increase the likelihood that person will want to interact with you in the future. People don't have to take these, but then other people might choose to not interact with that person. I was suggesting quite strongly, that using violent imagery in a conversation is something I personally don't like, and that I'm less likely to interact with someone that does that.
There are other improvements that aim to prevent damage to a group of people discussing stuff, i.e. someone is actively disrupting someone else's conversation. In those cases, there needs to be something stronger than suggestions, there needs to be ways to prevent one person from disrupting other peoples conversations.
 
I certainly agree with the latter.
 
3:49 PM
Anyone have any idea of vague stats on contributors local build environments?
is it mostly people building on their native host OS? building in a VM/container of the same OS? building in a linux VM from a non-linux host? an even mix?
 
I'm building under WSL1
Really need to look how to move to WSL2
 
I think it's only in preview state right now
 
Ah, well dang it
Btw are people familiar with Phinx? I can't seem to figure out from the doc if multiple unique index are supported or not during the creation of a table (e.g. UNIQUE(lang, dir, name).
 
any particular distro @Girgias?
... do you mean Sphinx?
 
Ubuntu 18.04
 
3:53 PM
oh I see. no idea.
it'd be pretty depressing if a dedicated migrations tool was limited to one index per table though
 
I might have to look at that, I rolled by own.
At work I'm currently having a nightmare trying to solve a chicken and egg situation where the database schema migrations are separate from the data migrations.
 
Well yeah, but the doc is really weird at times, and from the source code the Index class seem to accept multiple columns but I can't see where the SQL is executed (maybe need more searching)
And I don't think there is a dump sql thing
 
Does the DB support a query log you can use to probe it?
 
Erf does SQLite have one?
I'm pretty shit with DBs tbh
That's why I try to use tools or roll out my own
Should probably work on my QueryBuilder/QueryExecutor again
But I'll think for PHP 7.4 to be out before working on it again lol
 
That reminds me I need to see if docker has RC2 out yet
 
4:00 PM
@MarkR see this is why I like (and wrote a tool to perform) sql migrations using... wait for it... WAIT FOR IT... SQL.
 
Yup @Stephen that's pretty much what I have. A set of named classes (ordered by a timestamp in the class name) and then a bunch of SQL statements attached to UUIDs for the system to check if they've run yet.
The problem I'm faced with is there also needs to be data migration done at times, and those are in some cases extremely complex and go through APIs which naturally only work with the latest schema.
 
@MarkR the db that exists as part of the manual build is just there to act as a cache. It doesn't permanently store data.
...if I've not misunderstood what is being talked about.
 
No you haven't @Danack
 
@MarkR oh I go simpler than that. no php involved, at all. literally a 2-deep dir structure of plain SQL files (pre, post, up, down), and a tool written in shell that applies them, and records the state of which is applied in a db table.
 
But I'm also trying to figure out if it couldn't be permanent with a tool which tracks the changes in SVN during checkout to update the DB instead of dropping it and rebuilding it everytime
 
4:04 PM
I really don't have the time or energy to get involved right now, but my guts say having something running continually that holds all the files in memory, and telling that when/what to regenerate would be the way to go.
 
@MarkR yep we've had similar issues - something to complex to be reasonably expressed (or even possible) in SQL, and needs to run either before, or after an sql based migration. My plan is to essentially run a similar concept as the sql migrations, but running php files
 
Pretty much what mine does Stephen, except I use PHP for it rather than the shell
 
@MarkR im curious why you have the UUIDs though? aren't the class names unique already (to check if they've run)
 
The class names are mainly just descriptive and used for sorting: Migration_201909221706_SomethingSomething
 
@MarkR we started out using this python tool which essentially did the same thing, but I ended up patching a bunch of stuff in it, and the underlying library it used, and I figured if im going to be apparently maintaining the tool anyway, I'll at least write it in a language I like.
the number of tools with database connectivity, but no support at all for TLS connections, is ridiculous
 
4:09 PM
gist.github.com/marandall/acc83b51c073f776b602fb12f6e1ad13 So the classes all look like this, rather than executing immediately it uses a collector
Then it's just a little app that uses symfony/console to allow previewing the changes, applying and so forth
 
@Stephen I'd go for stdclass
 
@NikiC ok thanks.
 
@Stephen for development you usually don't install php anyway, so prefix is not necessary in most cases
you just use sapi/cli/php for things
 
@NikiC right, ok I'll leave it out, and those who need to can customise it as required via pass-through args
@NikiC your configure line gives three warnings about unrecognised options, maybe old options that have been removed (based on the extension status of the first two) --with-mysql, --enable-apcu, --enable-ast
 
4:25 PM
@Stephen those are just pecl extensions
 
4:38 PM
php-doceditor.markrandall.uk Coming along nicely. I extracted the parameter descriptions from the docs XML but I've not had chance to add tag detection to the render process yet.
I'm wondering if I can somehow force docbook to be compatible with the multi-language stuff, but I suspect not
 
5:06 PM
@MarkR You're talking to Andreas about that too?
 
Havent yet @Derick. I was trying to come up with a solid PoC to solve the issues he talked about on your show first
 
He tweeted about some other things earlier today, so he might already have found something...
 
What's his handle?
 
Seems he ran into problems, although admittedly I'm focusing less on the SVN issue and more of the access-of-editing.
I thought the issue was revision numbers for things like translation and such?
 
5:13 PM
erm.. im pretty reliably getting undefined reference to php_explicit_bzero'` from both master and the 7.4 branch, in an environment that worked... 2 days ago? am I missing something obvious?
 
He seems to have DM's disabled, any chance you could ping him for me @Derick and I'll have a chat and see if my nuclear option would help solve his problem
 
Howdy
 
Howdy Statik
 
cmb
5:29 PM
@Stephen, did you git clean -fdx or such?
 
I'll try that. I'm building in a VM via vagrant, and have had some issues with files from the host weirdly not being updated on the guest, so I'm seeing if that was it, but otherwise I'll try removing any straggler files, thanks for the tip
seems to have got further in the build that last time I think
gah what the heck more issues. ok lets try a little spring cleaning
 
cmb
o/
 
o/ Joe
 
5:41 PM
@cmb thanks. one of these days you might not need to answer my stupid questions :P
seems to be working now.
 
Oh gawd. Just a quick reboot to fix a DNS issue, Microsoft says NO! You shall have that update you've been rejecting for the past 4 days and you will like it.
 
Just keep repeating to yourself "I deserve this" ...
you're not using windoze to build php are you ? I think it takes about a million years ...
 
Nah that's CMB's unholy punishment. When I'm working on the source I use WSL and build it in Linux
Although I did find that using make -j12 can hard reset my PC.
 
you don't have any keys on github ...
we have a pretty quick build machine ... send me a public key or put one on github if you want to use it for play time ...
 
I've got a server sitting up in the attic if needs be, but thank you all the same. The WSL build process is not too bad as it happens, although GIT is a non-starter so I do that from windows rather than the mounts
 
5:55 PM
I feel sorry for the server, what is it ?
that's what I done, bought a end of line rack server from some cloud provider ... it sounded like a space ship, but with normal coolers on it, it just sits on top of my computer, making about as much noise ... it's a xeon but the last gen, 2x16 cores and 64gb of ram ...
 
Just an old desktop. Once the AMD shortage has finished I'm planning on either moving my current desktop into server role, or buying a pair of refurned Dell D610s
 
I want a new one, the generation after are now end of line and flooding the market, but not quite as cheap ...
 
I moved all of my computer stuff out the office and up into my attic earlier this year. Monitors and peripherals are in my office but everything else is connected up using 6m displayport cables and some active USB 3 repeaters
 
(that's where I got mine, can/do recommend, I had it in a couple of days iirc)
 
hmm, interesting. I was looking at ebay buy I'm quite wary of buying hardware from it.
 
6:01 PM
@MarkR everything used to be neat, but now everything has to be close to a ups, because spain will kill anything you plug into the grid directly, really quickly ...
there are no fuses in most plugs here ... now think about all the things you have blown a fuse in and imagine them going pop ... it happens all the time ...
 
Sending square waves down the mains grid are they?
 
@MarkR they do sell on ebay, I found them there, but you can build to spec on the website ... they were really good ...
 
@MarkR Will do - what's your twitter handle so I can ask him to follow you?
 
Thanks @Derick. It's twitter.com/markrandall86 - I realised I could reply on his comment thread but a way to DM would certainly be easier
 
they're making an absolute killing, even though the hardware is cheap, they are buying these things hundreds of units at a time, they are costing them maybe 20-50 bucks a piece ... they are quite happy to run around after you and answer questions, and pack and deliver professionally, because that's all they have to do ...
 
6:04 PM
@MarkR Make sure to follow him before I ask though :-)
 
I think I already am
 
OK - I've pinged him now
 
Thankya kindly.
 
you#ll also find him on gitter.im/phpdoctest/Lobby
 
I'll get in touch and see how he reacts to my plan of... delete almost all the translations
<insert maniacal laughter.mp3>
I'm liking this confuguator they have @JoeWatkins. They may end up with some of my money before too long. Thanks for the tip.
 
 
1 hour later…
7:23 PM
Why am I learning about doc team decisions from your podcast? @Derick
that's a rhetorical question, btw :)
 
On that note, how'd the whole Ze'ev vetoing large BC breaking changes thingy go?
I had to stop following midway and now there are MAX_SAFE_INTEGER emails on that thread.
 
It semi settled down last I saw
 
@MadaraUchiha some asshole introduced an RFC to tackle non-productive behaviour on the internals mailing list.
 
@Danack Heh, that sounds amsuing. How'd that work out for them?
 
@salathe this is an example of why I've begun to think that having different areas for discussions, but having those discussions be discoverable from a single place, is the biggest problem we ought to be solving for the project.
@MadaraUchiha I'm okay, how are you?
 
7:33 PM
@Danack I'm great, how'd your RFC go?
 
@MadaraUchiha tbh, okay so far. There's a couple of people who think there could never be ever any need to limit how people interact on a mailing list, and most other people are too tired to join the discussion, so it's only about 10 messages long so far.
I'm going to redraft some bits to make the aim of preventing disruption be more obvious and more likely to result, than the 'punishing' of people.
 
Meta meta discussions are generally not fun :)
 
Amazingly, just introducing the RFC seems to have done wonders for peoples behaviour....mostly.
 
@Danack "Never" is a strong word there
 
@Danack For me, it's yet another item on the "this is why I should just say 'fuck it' and leave" pile.
 
7:36 PM
But yes, I can see how some people (especially those who do need said limits) will say that.
@salathe I was a lurker in internals for a while, and then one day I realized I just stopped lurking there and that I wasn't reading any emails anymore, so I unsubscribed.
I have a few messages here and there, but nothing grandiose
 
@salathe As you're here, could probably do with passing an idea in front of you at some point
 
@MarkR Is the idea more whisky? (I may be slightly intoxicated at the moment...)
 
Honestly, it's more high-risk refactoring of thousands of files. May be better to wait xD
 
@salathe Not having listened to that podcast, any decisions besides moving to git?
 
I used to lurk on internals and I sincerely hope more RFCs follow the approach of Pull Requests github.com/php/php-rfcs. They are easier to get access to, you can see and comment on the code right there inline, and I can see what's going on with an RFC without having to have the other baggage that comes with looking at the mailing list.
 
8:05 PM
Image proxy package?
 
php-doceditor.markrandall.uk (may need a Ctrl F5) I was thinking of little icons to show where translations were available to help people see what might need work doing on it, but I think it looks a bit.. meh, thoughts? Can toggle by clicking on the flag.
 
@Danack I have no voting power, so this is just my two cents as an outsider. I was thinking about the disruptions and who they primarily belong to. It seems the biggest issues arose out of an individual who thought they had more power than they actually did...
I will have to break this up as I type. Bear with me. =)
 
user image
3
 
Now that Rasmus stated what he did about those who are designing the language call the shots, this just needs to be a major point of precedent going forward.
 
@StatikStasis maybe ping me on twitter?
 
8:19 PM
At some point there may be those in power who are not as rational as those who are designing right now. For instance if there was ever a day where Z had controlling interest due to designing again (not sure of the likelihood of this happening.)
@Danack Eh- it's Sunday- it's slow in here.
I wonder how big of an issue this would have blown up into if there was explicit language about the power that everyone had. It would seem being explicit (written somewhere) that the power is with the voters and no individual has a controlling majority would reduce a lot of this.
@Danack whoops- on mobile and missed that. Let me see if so can find that
 
...
to be clear, I'm going to try to stay out of any conversations that point fingers at people, or alternative solutions to the "non-productive conversations" problem for now. I'm aiming to get this RFC passed and then we can talk about bigger pictures.
 
If one of the RMs or yourself goes mad, how do we settle it, trial by cupcake?
 
8:35 PM
Did you read the RFC? there's no extra power defined, just a process for i) who should be helping people understand how they can have better conversations, and why some things people might do can have negative affects on other people ii) A process for carrying out a vote on suspending someone internals.
But sure, go for the cupcakes.
 
I did read it, but I've slept a few times since then.
 
8:47 PM
High CPU usage while syncing Nextcloud apps from phone – #78585
 
 
1 hour later…
9:48 PM
This is been driving me crazy -- what actually alters the default include_path when --with-pear is enabled?
Of course, after previously spending hours searching, I find it right after posting: lxr.room11.org/xref/php-src%407.4/configure.ac#1313
 
See, that's why you should always complain about things at frequent intervals. As soon as you do you'll figure it out yourself.
 
It looks like pear is... deprecated?
 
I thought pear was being killed off
 
yeah pear is removed
 
I don't remember that. Sheesh, my brain.
I didn't realize the default include_path was tied to PEAR. I doubt I'd have voted in favor of pear removal if that also meant removal of that piece.
 
9:56 PM
i am pretty sure you can salvage that, or fix to have new meaning. i doubt the intend was to remove a default include path
 
I wonder if those macros that set the pear path are accessible from the phpize process.
Admittedly, I don't know much .m4 and autotools stuff. I much prefer cmake or raw, hand-written makefiles.
 
If we were to have a new web based sapi, being able to specify an ini directory per sapi entry would be nice. I know that php-fpm attempts that....but also having different extensions loaded per app would be nice...
 
I wonder how many installations in practice don't have pear, and accordingly, don't have that default include path.
 
I'm seeing:
INCLUDE_PATH='.:'

In my configure output
 
It seems logical that if we want userland code in "core" that we're going to want this include path.
Maybe I will attempt to salvage it.
@Danack That would be nice -- I'm not sure about the technical bits, but per-project ini and extensions would be nice.
 
10:03 PM
Docker all the things :-)
 
@MarkR No -- something like Docker, but not Docker.
Plenty of users want a user defined software stack (UDSS) but without "containing" things like CPUs and network namespaces. And Docker is tantamount to root, which is a no-go for shared machines.
 
I've not heard of a decent docker container escape for a non-root dockerfile in a good long while
I mean... avoid running with --privileged
 
@MarkR I remember you saying this a day or two ago...
 
hmm?
Saying what? I say a lot of things, many of them arbitrary and confusing.
 
@Danack my idea would still be, go as a frontend for HTTP/H2, embed PHP into it ;-)
 
10:18 PM
Would be nice if there was an official way of running PHP's normal build-up break-down style without having to stick nginx in front of it
 
10:46 PM
I sent an email. We'll see what discussion crops up.
 
11:08 PM
@salathe I don't know :-) I just chat to people :-)
 

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