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3:00 PM
@ircmaxell and as such, if that's the only powers they do have, I pretty much don't care who the PHP group is.
 
@Girgias it'll likely be way more. The CoC isn't there yet, the bit on voting is tiny, etc
 
@ircmaxell btw. I think any lead dev from popular projects should have a minimum participation in discussions/internals as well
 
I'm so proud of PHP, it's all grown up and having a midlife crisis just like every other mature open source project.
 
Ah fair, I'll have a read in a bit
 
@ircmaxell And the PHP-FIG is pretty much redundant as they are de facto all lead devs on some quite well known PHP projects
 
3:03 PM
@bwoebi added
 
How many RFCs do we have lined up or stuck in discussion that involve tightening up the language? I'm aware of strict operators, engine warnings, promoting exceptions, anything else that might potentially fall under one "modern standards" flag?
 
What defines a popular project?
 
How does one join the internals mailing list?
 
By subscribing to the list
 
from where?
 
3:09 PM
So technically there is a form on the website
But it's broken
 
@mega6382 Send a mail
 
So you need to send a blank email to (IIRC) internals-subscribe@lists.php.net
 
The form worked for me yesterday when I switched over to using my php.net email on it
 
@ircmaxell While we are at formalizing vetos, I would like to mention that sometimes in the past RFCs were minimally amended by core contributors in the implementation. E.g. to fix small behavior inconsistencies or something which was not so clearly defined in the RFC to make the behavior saner. Maybe this needs a tiny notice on the doc...
 
Oh it did @MarkR ? It never has worked for me lol
 
3:11 PM
Well once I put in my email and selected internals, it sent me an email with an email to reply to which activated it
 
Huh
Interesting so maybe the form is fixed
 
@ircmaxell At least I recall some changes to typed props semantics in edge cases still happening after the vote. I think this should be added to not give unnecessary ammunition to certain people...
 
@bwoebi I think that's just a short-cut for smaller changes, no?
 
essentially.
 
Just copying from the doc: PHP needs to decide if its "default" configuration is "best practices" which a developer can loosen, or if it's "sloppy practices" which a developer can tighten.
 
3:12 PM
do you think it's explicitly needed to call that case out?
@MarkR yes, that's a good discussion thread
 
@ircmaxell I took it for granted until now, for sure. However given the recent events, I'm unsure. Feel free to ask others as well.
I guess this is covered by "Direct commits" section
so leave it as is I guss.
 
I'll try adding a section to the veto area about that explicitly
 
Cool, thanks guys, it seems like I am subscribed.
 
Chase is actually non sensical
The reason why new dev choose (or are recommended) Python is because it's noob friendly and shoots at you when you do something stupid
 
I really hope we can get those extra half dozen votes and get the engine warnings exceptions over the line. All hail shooting stupid
 
3:17 PM
@bwoebi I added to the veto, not sure it belongs there or is hyper necessary, but worth it for now
 
@ircmaxell okay :-)
 
@MarkR you mean the undefined Variable one ?
 
Yeah. Array access is too close for comfort too
 
Cause the DivisionByZero is kinda problematic because we don't have a float division function with IEEE 744 (I think that's the number) semantics
Array access I don't really mind
 
Nikic said he's going to add fdiv
so there's a way to handle 744
 
3:20 PM
Yeah but I don't know if it can be added in PHP 7.4
As it's in RC cycle
Otherwise I'd change my vote
@beberlei seems your RFC watcher is borked with the Engine RFC lol php-rfc-watch.beberlei.de
 
@Girgias Let's not add bugs ;-) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_FDIV_bug
 
Division by zero exception is aimed at 8.0 isnt it?
 
It is
Like all of them are
 
cmb
Small, self-contained features may be added in revisions, if the RMs agree.
 
But the upgrade path is kinda annoying in that case (compared to short tags sight)
@Derick well we already have the semantics with our current / operator
Soooooooo
 
3:22 PM
So if a non-exception-throwing fdiv function was added alongside it, as I believe is Nikic's plan, would that be suitable for you to change your vote?
 
@cmb I know I know remember that we were trying to sneak in the short tag deprecation RFC in beta3 (or 4 because someone doesn't know how to count :P)
@MarkR well in any case it's going to pass, but yeah Nikita's plan is suitable :)
But until I see the function in the source code that vote is going to still be warning
Not that it's going to matter from what I see
 
cmb
Well, we actually added new functions in revisions. Personally, I don't like that, but it's okay.
 
Someone sneak in undefined variables becoming a warning in 7.4 so it can go full exception in 8.0 ;-)
... I think I just telepathically heard Derick swearing and threatening to disembowl anyone who tried
 
@ircmaxell nice definition of active contributor :-P I guess that is going to exclude myself as well currently - I guess I have had quite a large influence on recent RFCs (semantics), but ended up not committing a lot :-D
But yeah, hard to define that well
 
@bwoebi the only time that matters is for Core Team eligibility. Everything else allows for all contributors
also: code of conduct is in place in the document (mainly copy/pasted from Drupal's)
 
3:40 PM
/me so happy that 'sloppy' as a description for non-strict mode/options is gaining traction.
 
@bwoebi it also excludes me :)
 
@ircmaxell I don't complain, just found that amusing for myself - it's fine for me - and technically, given 1-2 days I probably could easily get to 10 commits fixing some bugs
 
The # of commits is probably not a great metric
I'm not entirely sure if there's a quantitative metric to replace it, but it obviously has bias towards lots of small things... I mean I submitted something like 20 PRs for individual functions so each one could have been discussed individually, but I could have just done them in one
 
@MarkR What would be a good indicator for "knows the inner workings of the engine at a relatively current and detailed level"?
 
cmb
@MarkR, it can be worse than that. I know of a single contributor with almost 100 commits; all tests, some okay, some bad, and some have already been reverted. :)
 
3:45 PM
There isn't one, other than endorsement from ones peers
 
@MarkR it's meant to be a minimal qualifier metric. Not saying you know what you're doing. For anything significant (core team membership for example) you'd need peer voting anyway
 
@MarkR (without context of reading whatever you're referencing from) keep in mind that some commits to core files, won't necessarily be from those who are experienced. I probably have 10 commits on core files because of the stubs stuff, and I have essentially zero clue how the internals works.
 
what's the reason for PHPFIG doing the election for the community seats? instead of some sort of public voting or any other acceptable way to determine these
 
If this was sayyy.... Reddit, we would give individual contributions some kind of score (upvotes, et al) and use that to determine ones contribution, naturally a complex bugfix is worth more than a test case, a large feature worth more than a bugfix etc
 
@Ekin because I needed to write something. Totally open to suggestions
@MarkR what would that ranking be used for?
 
3:51 PM
as an alternative to "10 commits" - some weigh of weighing relative contributions rather than just the number of PRs
 
@MarkR for what purpose?
to determine who gets to vote?
 
For anything which uses the # of commits as a metric, so active contributor / core
 
@MarkR they should be low bars IMHO. Voting should be open to as many as practical. And anything where there is intentionally limited voting pool (Such as the core team) is voted on anyway...
but that's just my opinion...
 
I just wanted to share something with those of Room 11- over the past couple of years while this room has added of laughter and humor to my day, it has also contributed a lot of knowledge, advice, and ah-ha moments for me personally and professionally from the conversations that occur. Just wanted to say thanks to everyone in this room! I consider you my digital friends with avatars for faces!
6
 
@ircmaxell I realise it's adding more work, but couldn't said election be handled by the php project itself - I realise this may sound like blasphemy to some, but association with FIG isn't a universal thing.
 
3:58 PM
@ircmaxell if I know right, we already have people who can vote on rfcs having a php.net account and being part of the community (eg. people from doctrine, symfony etc) I think? I would prefer if others alike would let us know if they want to sign up for a seat, and then vote between whoever signed up for it
 
@StatikStasis are you dying? :P
 
(sorry for the double ping) - basically, I'd rather if you hosted a vote on php.net itself - having the core team watching over it, to decide between people who wants a community seat
 
@StatikStasis anyway, thanks dude. <3 you.
 
lol
 
unrelated but I just realized having those notices becoming warnings won't help me at all :| as with notices they'll be ignored as well, at least in this project... duh I really hoped this would stop them from ignoring undefined stuff and them array to str notices :-P
 
4:05 PM
@mega6382 No, but I am sleep deprived from staying up so late playing videos games since I built a new PC so it may be that. =P
 
@StatikStasis I see this was aimed at me but you’re trying to be subtle about it.
You’re welcome.
 
lol
 
@JayIsTooCommon LOL! Hey- our conversations about law enforcement and criminals is some of the laughter moments I am speaking about. =P
 
@StatikStasis I find myself having the same feelings toward r11 from time to time :-)
 
@Ekin if you and @PeeHaa would get a grip and come to Barcelona, we wouldn’t need to be digital friends..
 
4:10 PM
:P
 
@JayIsTooCommon what are you doing in Barcelona? Don't you live in England?
 
I’m trying to get R11 peeps to commit to PHP Barcelona
I’ll get it pinned once this internals meltdown blows over
 
@JayIsTooCommon ha, maybe some other time / event :-) it's a busy time of the year
 
I'm far away in a magical land called "America" or I would love to come to one of the get-togethers.
 
@JayIsTooCommon oh cool, the list of speakers is pretty nice actually from Anthony to Nikita to Ocramius. Seems like fun.
 
4:15 PM
Ah fuck, I've fucked up my GitLab CI Docker cache it seems like :(
 
@mega6382 booooook itttt
 
@JayIsTooCommon Yeah, but I'll just have to contact them first to see about the invitation letter required for the visa.
 
I'm speaking in Barcelona too
 
Yeah, saw you in the list as well.
 
Wow- that's going to be a nice set of speakers! What time does Zeev speak? ... @Derick
Sorry- couldn't help myself. =P
 
4:27 PM
heh
 
Have any of you ever seen him at a conference in person?
 
@StatikStasis Several times.
 
Is he the same as he is on internals?
 
not really
 
Well- that's good at least.
 
4:38 PM
Are there names for database storage techniques? What I want to know, specifically, is the technique used in WordPress's wp_usermeta table.
For example:
umeta_id | user_id | meta_key   | meta_value
--------------------------------------------
       1         1   nickname     admin
       2         1   first_name   John
       3         1   last_name    Doe
This allows one to add arbitrary "columns". They can be modified dynamically.
Hmm. I guess it's called Entity–attribute–value model.
 
Yes, that's EAV.
 
Also known as P.O.O.P.
 
@bwoebi Is there any advantage to using uv_spawn over proc_open?
 
4:56 PM
@Trowski Try it out … might be simpler under windows given the stdio pipes
 
@Stephen Oh, I totally get that. I was more trying to separate it out formally from the project and give to some sort of external entity
 
@bwoebi So under *nix, basically you're saying "no?"
 
IMHO, that's up to the project to determine. ANd I'd be cautious to over-formalize it too much. The point of the current process is it's light weight. And I want to try to add as little weight as practical while closing up some of the holes
 
@Trowski no, I say possibly, you have to try it out to measure perf; under windows it should be simpler.
 
@bwoebi Ah, ok. Maybe sometime I'll look at supporting it in amphp/process.
 
5:00 PM
@Derick me too :)
 
5:44 PM
I'm thinking about circulating that doc (or a copy of it) with a few external people. Anything you'd want to see added or rectified first? Any major section it needs or revision you'd all suggest?
 
@ircmaxell feel free - the more people who give feedback, the better
 
Until it gets posted publicly and the ML trolls join in :P
 
6:02 PM
@ircmaxell Did you remove the fig stuff?
 
@PeeHaa no, it is still there, but I'm open to pulling it if there's a suitable replacement that opens
 
@ircmaxell Better have nothing than FIG in there imo
Not only is fig not anymore what fig was they also have no a really good track record in validating candidates
Sorry for hasty reply. I am in the middle of a move (and only saw the fig mention) :-)
Which again imho is a mistake
 
moving is always a mistake
 
@Derick :P
 
@PeeHaa to the uk? :)
 
6:09 PM
@JayIsTooCommon Two blocks from the current place :D
 
Three.
 
Three apparently :-)
 
As long as it’s three blocks closer this way.
 
I need to double check the map, but I think it is yeah
 
6:30 PM
I still think the community seats should not be elected via an external group such as FIG; it'd be more open to non-FIG members and the core team can watch over the election process to ensure its validity. Just ask if anyone wants to take a seat and vote between them if more than two did so.
At this point /me wonders how this is working out for rust.
 
@PeeHaa come up with an alternative that solves it, and I;'m open to it :D
@Ekin Well, the issue I have there is that managing a general election is a pita. Who can vote, what matters, etc
 
I understand that, yet I'm not sure how letting FIG decide internally is any better.
 
Iteration Failures – #78551
 
It'd be better to come up with a set of criteria to meet for those who would like to sign up for it. Having a low contribution number per year made me think we would have more people who can vote.
Anyway, I won't pursue it any longer. It was just an idea.
 
Live editing docs is becoming quite handy, wouldn't you say
 
6:46 PM
I hope that if someone wants to be involved enough in the project to have a vote in how we do things, they'll do enough to get an account/karma/whatever is needed, and contribute to the project in more ways than RFC votes.
 
@PeeHaa Are you getting a place with a space for setting up a studio to make more music? =D
 
sorry for my stupid question, but localconv() ... it gets the information from the system, right?
some information, e.g. decimal point is set wrong in the output there... it's in a docker container that generates the locale like this: echo "de_DE.UTF-8 UTF-8" >> /etc/locale.gen && locale-gen
 
7:02 PM
@Andreas Yes, that sounds right
 
@Derick any idea how I can get it fixed to output the correct decimal point?
couldn't find any documentation regarding the format of the "locale.gen" file... I guess the information needs to be placed there?
sorry for bothering... problem is fixed. in case someone is interested: there was a line "\setlocale(\LC_NUMERIC, 'C');" in the LocaleService of the code base.
 
@StatikStasis I am moving out of a place like that. Never came to a studio though :-)
It is very much planned though
:D
 
@PeeHaa removed FIG and replaced it with an election mechanism. Thoughts?
 
7:22 PM
Seems fine to me
 
7:55 PM
@PeeHaa Moving somewhere smaller?
 
@StatikStasis Yes. Smaller but nicer
 
Yep \o/ indeed
 
8:11 PM
Anyone heard from @Wes ? Haven't seen him in a while.
 
@NikiC just started watching zankyou no teroru, its quite nice. Got to this, had to to take a screenshot. i.stack.imgur.com/C2BMy.jpg
 
8:36 PM
lol- those scenes in movies are always comical.
 
8:48 PM
renamed Core team to community council
 
I'm catching up on internal mails, should have brought booze for this
 
@Kalle not sure if you saw this, but would love feedback/thoughts: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/47315861#47315861
 
@ircmaxell I have it on my to-do list to catch up on room11 after mails :)
 
@Kalle dude... priorities
 
I like Zeev keeps mentioning the fact that we removed register_globals etc and that RFCs are bad for deprecations and removals, yet it was apart of:
https://wiki.php.net/rfc/removal-of-deprecated-features
@PeeHaa Fine, I'll read reddit and twitter before room11 then
 
8:55 PM
:P
 
Ah a mail of mine!
PHP 5.4 was a bang of a release in terms of removal of old functionality
define_syslog_variables() was my favorite feature to be gone :(
 
huh that looks funny, why would one need that?
 
I think it was a leftover from PHP3 or something, I got no idea xD
 
maybe constants didnt exist in the language then?
 
9:00 PM
@ircmaxell The PHP Tribunal!
 
Perhaps!
 
The Council of Continual Commiters!
 
at least in php 3.0.18 the syslog constants already existed
 
@beberlei we need to go deeper to resolve this mystery lol
I do know why y2k_compliance was a thing however!
 
@StatikStasis and we could wear hoods! And capes! and meet in the darkness
 
9:04 PM
$ ./php -v
3.0.18
 
Ummmmm
Tell me you just did that from a production system
 
no on my dev machine, i played around with it last year
 
Ohhhhh I know, I've got it. The leaders of the PHP project should all be completely anonymous, identified by nothing but :: tattooed upon their person somewhere. They shall be known as The Clan of the Pamayim Nekudotayim. It's perfect, no-one will know what it means.
 
F:\php>php -v
3.0.17
 
sadly php 3 branches/tags are not on git anymore
there are downloads on the site though
 
9:08 PM
yeah I wonder if I should download and attempt to compile php3.0.0 on Windows
 
the code was so simple back then :)
 
I mean I don't got better things to do anyway besides the massive reading catch up xd
 
3.0.1 also has the constants
 
@ircmaxell I don't think I understand what type of problem that type of document is meant to either solve or avoid.
 
poking into fe now :
 
9:08 PM
@MarkR if this document does turn into a proposal, I am definitely putting that in the commit history for the community council as an Easter egg
 
Am I the only one who wants to send an email to "Mike" telling him that if he's hitting multiple time the limit of characters you can send to the ML maybe stop writing essays?
Which are super hard to read and just makes people ignore his replies (well at least I do)
 
@Kalle it is indeed a leftover from PHP 2, the function defined the variables in global variable space to use as pseudo constants to syslog, omg
 
@Girgias You aren't alone, hes massive amount of emails is just too much
 
Good to know
 
@Danack three big ones. 1) there is no governance model today (rfc's are used by common law). 2) there is no code of conduct today. 3) there is no vision or mission for the project
 
9:10 PM
@beberlei holy!
 
@NikiC very well put ++
Exactly how discussions should be. Professional without melodrama.
 
You know that feeling, that someone pings you and invites you to a room, and then vanishes from chat for a week? 😃
You know who you are
 
@ircmaxell 1) "(rfc's are used by common law)" - so why's that a problem? 2) wait 2 days and check again. 3) I don't think that is a problem. the previous attempts at "vision" have only been used to prevent people from implementing stuff that some people had a valid use for imo.
 
@beberlei by Stig? oh damn
 
9:17 PM
@MadaraUchiha I didn’t think I was important enough for you to even notice :B I kinda sorted it now... just SO being SO
 
He did not have a strong opinion on either!
but you know, he could have removed it himself but didn't :(
 
(to be clear @ircmaxell , I would support some rules about who can vote on what...but that's almost certainly a separate topic than vision).
 
@Kalle from what I get as a new contributor is that stuff was added to PHP without real consideration at one point in time
Which I think we are getting better (moreso that even feature additions need 2/3 majority now)
 
@Girgias it was when I started with internals, features came and left as it pleased developers. I remember Illia added REQUEST_TIME_FLOAT randomly in a patch release because he needed it or something
 
9:25 PM
@Kalle nice.
 
Jeez
 
@Girgias I mean I recently removed sql.safe_mode without discussion and no one cared xD
 
When did you start with internals @Kalle?
Well isn't safe mode removed since god knows when?
(I say that but I'm pretty sure there are loads of mentions of safe_mode in the Doc)
 
@Girgias was reading internals since around 2004/2005 when I was 15-16 and then got my CVS account a few years later in 2007 I think it was
 
Huu
Interesting :D
 
9:27 PM
@Girgias sql.safe_mode (it was an extra safe_mode that was meant to prevent CREATE DATABASE calls etc) but no driver supported it besides ext/mysql and ext/interbase
 
Funny I started to get into coding with PHP around 2011-12 (so in full swing with magic quotes and removal and what not) but then stopped for a couple of years and started again looking at it with PHP 7.1
@Kalle well if Interbase supported it, it wasn't worth while /s
 
LOL
@Girgias imgur.com/a/AktoU0o AFUP 2005, me wearing a ThePirateBay t-shirt while meeting Rasmus for the first time
 
ping @IMSoP ?
 
Wow
AFUP, so somewhere in France I suppose?
 
AFUP is the French PHP usergroup, that have an annual conference in Paris
 
9:30 PM
Yeah I know what AFUP is x) they have branches all over France
I know they have other conferences (notably Toulouse and Lyon from what I remember)
 
... has Rasmus stamped declare(ageing=off) on his face or something?
 
Yeah nowadays they do, I did attend the 2006 edition too but didn't come back since then
 
I probably should joined AFUP but it has a membership fee
 
He looks practically identical to how he does now
 
It's fun to go through old pictures, I even wrote my own cross PHP version tester before 3v4l: imgur.com/a/cYVkPLF
This is 2007/2008 ish
 
9:39 PM
9 hours ago, by ircmaxell
@MarkR I used to think that. But with these debates today, I think that it can't be passed without clarifying project governance. And governance can't be clarified without touching in a ton of other areas. And a CoC is more needed than ever.
@Danack is that a wink wink about something happening on Wednesday?
 
!!reminders
so, @peehaa.....
 
I am rewriting the bot so have a couple months patience :)
Not sure what is going on though :-(
!!uptime
 
╔══════════════════════════════════╗
║ [50 seconds] without an accident ║
║   since [2019-09-16 21:42:43]    ║
╚══════════════════════════════════╝
 
There rebooted it
!!reminders
 
Registered reminders are:
• You're dead. → Id: :35763950 → Sunday, 21st February 2117 00:00 (UTC) - Set by Paul Crovella - Time left: 97 years, 5 months, 4 days, 2 hours, 16 minutes and 18 seconds
• me to post the 'disruptive behaviour' RFC → Id: :47311847 → Wednesday, 18th September 2019 12:24 (UTC) - Set by Danack - Time left: 1 day, 14 hours, 40 minutes and 42 seconds
 
9:44 PM
I will be sure to reboot it again in: 1 day, 14 hours, 39 minutes and 0 seconds :D
 
do it like two hours after that, I think I'm still going to be on a plane...
 
kk :-)
Reminder set!
Hopefully problems like these are fixed with the amp upgrade
 
@PeeHaa do tell
 
@JayIsTooCommon ?
The rewrite?
 
My coworkers were right. I've wasted my life on IDEs. Tmux + Emacs is much better.
 
9:50 PM
@Allenph why do you listen to cow-orkers?
 
@Danack 1) it's a problem because existing core contributors make noise about it (thinking at least 3 people who have brought it up as a problem). 2) meh, untill I see it proposed, I have been waiting years, 3) this is about trying to solve the apparent disconnect with a common baseline
 
@Danack Well, for one I know at least 2 of them are MUCH smarter than me.
And second, I tried it for a week, and I like it better...a lot better.
 
@ircmaxell for 1) I really think that clearly defining the problem that needs to be fixed is more likely to get people to agree to a solution. 3) maybe.
 
@Danack the problem is that there is no explicit governance model for PHP. There is the group, a RFC process, etc. But nothing about project governance other than precedent for RFC. But we also haven't tackled major governance issues lately. Hence why
 
"that there is no explicit governance model" , "(rfc's are used by common law)" - so why's that a problem? As in, what has happened that has had a bad result, that would be fixed by having a more explicit governance model?
 
10:01 PM
@Danack honestly, for one, a ton of noise.
Beyond that, making it easier to get new contributors in and contribute in a transparent manner
 
Yes. That is a problem. But I think there are different possible solutions to that. Enforcing (and possibly also making stricter) our rules for how internals emails are sent could also be a solution to that.
 
@PeeHaa yeee what ya doin?
Getting rid of that manc code?
 
@JayIsTooCommon github.com/async-bot
 
@Danack who would enforce those rules?
 
@JayIsTooCommon And yes, partly
 
10:06 PM
When did you start this!! You sexy man. I’m gonna look at it now and pretend I understand
@PeeHaa @DaveRandom hah, say bye to your legacy
 
lol
Been working on it off and on this month
Very work in progress though
 
@ircmaxell let me write up several thoughts. I think there are separate different problems that seem to be quite similar, but can be solved in different ways, and that solving any of them might make the others easier to solve.
 
Only just now about to commit a bare SO driver
 
@PeeHaa I want to make R11 great again. Too many regulars are missing
Coincidental that they all left after I did..
 
They all left once you were gone
aye
:-)
 
10:08 PM
@ircmaxell While reading your google doc in the III.III.V section, do I read it correctly that under these terms, then nikita's engine warnings RFC wouldn't be egliable for this or?
 
@ircmaxell As an example, the "newcomers being noisy" is a completely different problem from "senior project people being noisy", at least from the perspective of how to solve it.
 
Like where’s @wes? @leigh.. Gordon who’s gone quiet. All the people I used to make fun of
 
I think I saw @Gordon recently in here
 
@JayIsTooCommon btw, how's your work on your Kate Upton impression going?
 
The rest? No idea
 
10:09 PM
@Gordon why you so quiet Gordon
 
Probably dead
 
@Danack oh totally. I don't mean this as the only solution. I just feel the whole doc is stuff that's been talked about for a while, and could be a good catalyst for a lot of momentum for the project overall
 
@Danack heh what? Am I too young to get that reference?
@PeeHaa lol
 
@Kalle why wouldn't it be eligible for vote?
@Kalle that section is basically unchanged from the current voting RFC
 
@Jimbo too... jumbo your banter is dead.
 
10:10 PM
@ircmaxell Ah maybe its just me misreading it because the "real" acceptance" voting poll is at the bottom
Maybe that should be clarified to be at the top always
Because you roll in to the wiki and see the secondary voting options first
 
@Danack newcomers being noisy I think is a direct byproduct of the old-timers being noisy and making it a religious war. I think the vision will help that significantly
 
@Danack ah! My pink bag that I sent to tereško to make him feel better. Let me find that pic...
@Danack this? imgur.com/a/D7lX055
 
10:29 PM
"how's your work on your Kate Upton impression going?" - perfection.gif
 
She's cute. Definitely on top of her eyebrow game.
Interesting, PHP+ went the opposite direction to what I thought, and got borged into Pre rather than absorbing pre itself. twitter.com/enunomaduro/status/1173673665499672583
 
yay!!!
 
@ircmaxell I read the doc now and I think it is great, there is one thing I'm not too happy about but its perhaps my own bias that I need to consider some more.


I understand the idea with Community Representatives, but I do not like the idea of inviting in what I define as "outsiders" in my mind (being non-@php.net people and/or people without a substantive contributions, I do not think that just adding/fixing some tests quite qualify), if you are to be vested with powers of the project, voting rights, then you should be an active contributor of PHP.
@ircmaxell overall the document is most excellent and wonderfully written, I really applaud your work and effort put into this, good job
 
@Kalle I definitely agree and there are significant tradeoffs involved in who should "have access". The reason I "caved" and went the "minimum contribution" route is that 1) whatever mechanism should be relatively easy to implement as a gate, and 2) recognize that there's a ton of people who spend a lot of time working with PHP who don't have time to contribute meaningfully to internals. But giving some form of a voice to the community that uses PHP is important too
@Kalle thank you :)
Part of my concern is that I explicitly want to lower the barrier to entry to get people involved in the project. does that mean giving more people a say? Not necessarily. But it does mean lowering and making explicit the barriers that do exist.
 
10:46 PM
Tread lightly though, the reverse can also apply, where those who are able to spend the overwhelming majority of their time working on internals, do not necessarily have deep insight into real-world usage. There's something like a 30% disparity atm between internals votes, and wider public votes.
 
@ircmaxell I can definitely agree that we need to hear the voices of the community, but like we debated about in the thread I mentioned from spring, I think its better to do that from another place that does not operate on political power.

It could be that we made a new repository on Github (similar to the php-rfcs one) and used that as a medium for community feature requests (let's face it, the bug tracker sucks for FR's) as the RFC experiment did prove a lot of valuable feedback from the community.
 
@Kalle maybe a 2-phase RFC process, where the first phase is a public call for comments on PRs, and the second phase is contributor vote...
 
I think something that is missing, at least from what I have seen, is legitimate quantitative evidence of usage patterns. I think we need a survey that is pushed hard to get better insight into how people are actually using the language, and how they might want to use the language. Not that we necessarily have to follow the wants of the masses, but knowing those wants would certainly represent significant pro or con to some more disruptive RFCs
 
@MarkR what would that look like?
 
Most likely a questionnaire split between specific points, and more general principles, with additional (limited) weighting placed on those who are responding on behalf of companies and projects. Then pushed out via every medium we have, and probably would need Jetbrains on board as well
 
10:52 PM
@ircmaxell Maybe, I need to think on that one, the first thought that comes to mind is if it would drive contributors from making RFCs is if its too lengthy. I personally have no objections, but I do not make massive amounts of RFCs anyway and those I've made is more a formality.
 
@Kalle Well, why just for feature requests? In my experience the issue hasn't been a lack of ideas, but a lack of sane implementations. So while a central place for feedback is definitely needed, my instinct says in cases like that a public slack (since nobody uses IRC anymore) where people can say "I have an idea, can anyone help me" may be a good angle?
 
@ircmaxell I take it you are familiar with Badger, he does these annual surveys for cURL, perhaps something we could do as well
 
@Kalle Oh, I'm thinking something that's precisely what @nikic did with his RFC experiment, where the public can "vote" ont he proposal itself (via +1/-1 emoji votes) to hint to internals the desire
@MarkR would you feel comfortable coming up with a first draft of what that may look like?
 
@ircmaxell FR's was just an example, I don't think limiting it to just that should be the defining factor.

A chat channel like you mentioned, maybe, it would be interesting to open the project up more. Sidenote; Something I always found fashinating was how PHP was managed as this "Closed Gentleman's Club", yet being such a successful/powerful project in the world.
 
10:56 PM
@Kalle Well, we've done a lot in this room over the past 5+ years to help new contributors get in
 
@ircmaxell That could work for sure with a community indicator from reactions. Has there been any talk about possible fraud in that manner? As making a new Github account takes only a matter of minutes
 
@Kalle oh, I would do that as non-binding only. Just a bit of signal rather than something formal or overly official
 
docs.google.com/forms/d/e/… Was a draft I was coming up with last week. It's very not complete, and I can't seem to do a "preview" link to the editor, so here's the actual live link
 
@ircmaxell good good :) have you had any timeline for when you would perhaps consider moving forward with this?
I would love to try make it to Barcelona, but its still a small two months away
 
I can move it to a google doc so we can live edit it if you think it'd help @ircmaxell
 
11:01 PM
@Kalle honestly, going to talk with @NikiC @bwoebi and @JoeWatkins tomorrow about the RFC refactor idea (formalizing the move to GitHub as part of this). If they are happy, I'll take a stab at that, and then circulate this with a wider group prior to officially proposing
@MarkR my only worry is it's too "my perference" rather than "the project I use" or "team I work for"
 
That's where a Q about position/authority would come in.
 
@MarkR well, even the questions on undefined variable access scream that to me. As an individual, yes I want that god dammit. As a professional on a team, I can't justify it even a little (of course depending on the circumstance)...
 
As a professional running a team, I'd straight up fire anyone who thought using them was a good idea xD
Well, maybe I wouldn't be able to fire them... but it wouldn't get past code review, it wouldn't even get past the git hook to check it.
 
Tradeoffs. There are tons of tradeoffs. And tons of needs in the world
 
@ircmaxell Are you guys having this in the open or private? I'd like to participate if I can meet the time
 
11:06 PM
@Kalle in this room, and this is the first they are hearing about it ;)
 
Hah, I'm in UTC+2, so I would expect morning for you and late-day to evening for them
I usually don't hang out here in day hours
 
precisely that.
you'll have plenty of chances for input prior to formal proposing...
 
I think my main input really is that community representatives, it was always something I felt strongly about for some reason, perhaps parts of the old ways of the project pulling me towards that direction, but hey
 
This is another thing that I think being precise about the problem can influence how people perceive a suggested solution. In particular, giving feedback on the technical details of some code on Github allows people to have far more back and forth conversations, that avoid generating hard to follow discussions on internals.
But also, one of the reasons why people are hesitant to want the discussions to be there also, is that they aren't discoverable from internals. So if we made something like a 'work in progress' page, that listed all the places where people were working on different thing
 
@Kalle yeah, totally get that. Its a hard balance to make. And while my instinct is to lower barriers as much as possible, there is risk in that and I totally understand it.
@Danack totally fair. I mean, we could script using the GitHub API to scrape those comments and archive them in the wiki or something like that...
 
11:14 PM
@ircmaxell I'll try see if I can find the thread I mentioned twice now, perhaps it can be of use to you
 
@Kalle
 
> Members of PHP-FIG
yeah, no.
 
@Kalle that;s a lengthy thread, I did read most of it a while ago. Is there a specific subset I can find easily?
 
docs.google.com/document/d/… there you go, commenting enabled
Add suggested Q's in the comments and i'll put them in
 
11:20 PM
@ircmaxell Me and Larry kinda went over this community stuff, tho the thing in paticular is PHP-FIG, but I think the principle is the same whether or not its the FIG
@ircmaxell externals.io/message/103917#103962 something like that or so
 
11:36 PM
Well I'm falling asleep at my desk, goodnight ladies and gentlemen.
 
@ircmaxell Browsing the thread, there is some good points about voting rights, karma and such there
 
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