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12:44 AM
@ircmaxell thanks for the question about process. the current situation IS fundamentally a governance problem, zeev claims there is some other way to come to an agreement, but does not explain how that works and what needs to happen
 
1:22 AM
crazy, only 3 people voting on the voting RFC in 2012 are still active contributors, derick, salathe and stas: web.archive.org/web/20120527111218/https://wiki.php.net/rfc/… (correct me if i am wrong)
 
 
2 hours later…
2:52 AM
Morning room
 
3:22 AM
hi
can anyone help me understand how to extract data from bio-metric device and transfer it to a web application
I trying to create an attendance system that uses a bio-metric device in getting the attendance..
 
3:58 AM
\o
 
@JoeWatkins I replied to your internals thread with some random thoughts, nothing big
 
ta, I got some feedback from peter too, I think my current plan is to RFC a change to the introduction, I'm not exactly sure about the problem of defining the group yet, maybe another RFC for that to amend credits/docs/everything with a modern description of the group/project/I don't know
I may not reply to that thread and just start a new one, because already people are arguing and whatever ...
it would be nice if we could just ignore Z please /cc @Danack
whatever he says doesn't matter, please pretend he's not there ... it's easy ...
he gets precisely as much focus as we give him, and he's had far far too much of late, I'm utterly out of time for him, let's just work around the problem, there's no other way to move forward ... you aren't going to convince him that he's being unreasonable, or his behaviour is harmful ... you couldn't convince him the sky is fucking blue ... so don't try ...
 
4:18 AM
To me Z is not an important figure, not someone who has my respect, so I do not take in his feedback as a valid concern, I read it but dismiss it in my mind
 
I blocked him ages ago and have to use externals.io to read his mailing list crap ... which I generally don't, unless I have to reply directly to him ... which I'm not going to be doing anymore, ever ...
 
If there is anywhere I can be helpful to the RFCs, then just ping me and I will see what I can do to provide support in our quest to provide proper governance and rules we can all play by like normal human beings
 
externals/or spam ... I forget it goes to spam, not deleted ... I don't see it whatever, and my experience of reading internals since I blocked him is at least a million percent better ... I just wish people wouldn't reply to every single piece of nonsense that he says ... it ruins every conversation ...
 
Yeah I think thats the problem when we do not have a clearly telegraphed set of rules or ethics of the list, newcomers who tend to be very vocal until they realize they get no responses on stuff can often ruin the conversion (or the silence rather)
The more attention we humans get, it just bolsters the ego and makes already unbeareable people, literally demons
 
HI
 
4:40 AM
Feature request: pcntl_signal_names() -> array of compiled-in signal labels – #78548
 
5:21 AM
I don't seem to be able to build 7.4 for some reason ...
cc: error: Zend/zend_vm_opcodes.o: No such file or directory
cc: error: Zend/zend_opcode.o: No such file or directory
cc: error: Zend/zend_operators.o: No such file or directory
cc: error: Zend/zend_ptr_stack.o: No such file or directory
cc: error: Zend/zend_stack.o: No such file or directory
cc: error: Zend/zend_variables.o: No such file or directory
cc: error: Zend/zend.o: No such file or directory
cc: error: Zend/zend_API.o: No such file or directory
cc: error: Zend/zend_extensions.o: No such file or directory
okay fresh checkout of 7.4, totally normal build, results in
cc: error: ext/date/php_date.o: No such file or directory
as first error, followed by a million others
krakjoe@fiji:~/php-src$ ls -lash ext/date/.libs
total 448K
4.0K drwxr-xr-x 2 krakjoe krakjoe 4.0K Sep 16 07:30 .
4.0K drwxr-xr-x 5 krakjoe krakjoe 4.0K Sep 16 07:30 ..
440K -rw-r--r-- 1 krakjoe krakjoe 437K Sep 16 07:30 php_date.o
it's it's .libs, I dunno what's going on ... can anyone reproduce this or have I fucked up my build environment somehow ?
 
5:48 AM
@JoeWatkins Isn't that something thats solved by rerunning buildconf and configure and/or config.nice? or switching a branch inbetween checkouts. I often get similar build issues if I mess up either of these steps on Windows
or simply [n]make clean and full rebuild?
 
6:36 AM
Does any has idea about "Why PHP built-in server deletes a file"?
Here's the commad: "PS C:\Users\Basheer\Desktop\clean code> php -S localhost:2010 girdsTest.php"
 
@Kalle fresh clone of php-src though ... so I had to do buildconf and configure ...
 
When I run the above command, the file gets deleted automatically and can't re-create it due to windows permission issues.
 
mornin all
Please tell me all ce's are already known on compile time, right?
I'm thinking of adding what @beberlei suggested regarding to Object Initializer, when object is instantiated and properties are initialized it would require to initialize all required properties to avoid uninitialized properties
Ahh autoload probably is runtime and it is then only possible to check that restriction
NVM
 
7:14 AM
Wow... I was being naive and thinking Rasmus' post would make Z take a break. He is a relentless vampire. A developer griefer.
Well- been a long night. nn
 
Morning
 
indeed
 
wish it wasnt, another 6 hours sleep would be lovely
 
is it appropriate to form one response in Object Initializer refering to all comments from weekend?
I don't wanna be rude, but replying to all of them would simply take too much time
and they mostly complain about the initializer itself proposing other mechanisms like named arguments or constructor arguments promotion
As always discussion went off-topic in my mind
 
7:23 AM
I believe you can respond however you so please @brzuchal. If you're doing a summary response, combination is certainly preferable to having to read 20 different posts imo
 
@MarkR Agree
Done. I hope this helps my RFC become accepted.
I didn't have time during a weekend to follow all the comments, there were a lot expecially from one person poping up own ideas different than what RFC proposes.
That's exhausting to follow.
I think the PR on GH approach is better, when ppl can comment on lines refering to RFC parts - you can sum up or provide a change and easily solve discussion - thread.
 
I had given up tbh. I commend your effort for keeping with it. After the github attempt, the ML seems utterly horrific
 
the github PR also had tons of off topic discussion on the top level
 
Also not possible on ML to mark off-topic threads, that's hard to nawigate in Gmail when some responses collapse and then you have to unwind them to find what you're trying to reffer to
@beberlei agree but I saw Nikita was able to mark them as off-topic
and they were collapsed
not requiring anyone else further to read them
 
mornin'
 
7:43 AM
I'd love to see more comment on Object Initializer from you guys from R11. I know you all are busy with own tasks and respect that. Thanks in advance :)
 
I already done that in here ...
@Danack && Beard ... I summon thee
 
morns
 
hippy moonday
 
cmb
o/
 
7:52 AM
@JoeWatkins Yes, I know and thank you. Just trying to boost constructive critique on ML
 
hey r11, I have an idea, let's try something ... here (read next message)
2
it'd be cool if everyone could write that paragraph in their own words in a comment, to reflect their understanding of exactly how php works ...
 
@JoeWatkins you wanna that in comments on a gist?
 
yes please
 
One paragraph:

An elite team of international programmers contribute their ideas and code to PHP, seeking to offer new features, and correct mistakes which have caused untold suffering since their inception.... but there are dark forces, hidden away in the twitters, shouting from the shadows, that oppose these changes... Today the forces of good fight an ongoing battle against these dark forces. If you have a high tolerance for bullshit, and can make liberal use of the block button, you too... can join... The PHP Team.
<themesong.mp3>
 
Yooper a native or resident of the Upper Peninsula of Michigan — used as a nickname
 
8:03 AM
@brzuchal I'm ill (flu I believe) - chance that we can postpone the recording to a later date in this week?
 
aw, feel better @Derick
 
cheers
everything aches :-/
 
flu sucks pretty hard
 
That's just a physical reaction to the Tories that are joining the lib dems Derick, it'll pass.
 
yeah, and it was too early for vaccines
@MarkR Tosh :-þ
 
8:11 AM
@Derick yes ofc, my son has a flu also and I need to get him to the doctor in 4hrs, we can talk about that tomorrow. Please mail me with the questions, I've send you the ping mail
 
OK!
I can't do Tue/Wed though
 
Anytime you can, let's arrange it when you got better :)
 
@Danack I think you're wrong in your "change pecl flow" email. You don't usually get GIT karma/voting rights for PECL extensions now. Only if you also need to commit to our SVN docs repo.
 
moin
@StatikStasis before you say anything: No. Just, no. Nope. You can choose the first word yourself, but the second is definitely "off".
 
@Derick yeah, I'll change the words to be more precise. Though also we could do with making a list (or making one we already have more prominent) of all the karma types, and how/when they are meant to be acquired.
!!remind me to post the 'disruptive behaviour' RFC in 52 hours
 
8:24 AM
Reminder 47311847 is set.
 
@JoeWatkins tick-tock
btw - just checking, did you see that benchmark think I posted. not sure if it would be of interest or not.
 
I did, but had no thinking time yet
any chance we could review that rfc before posting it
 
Yes, though tbh by this stage I think I could post a picture of a chicken sandwich with the words 'kick z out' written in tomato ketchup on the top, and it's likely to pass.
 
sounds good
do it :D
 
/flees the country
 
8:33 AM
Can someone help me?
I am trying to create an Attendance Monitoring System(Web) with the use of a bio-metric device(finger pint scanner).
Don't know how to extract the data from the device to my application...
 
Wouldn't that all depend on the device?
 
where does the rfc process define a veto ?
 
it doesn't
 
what is pierre talking about ?
 
I don't know. Where does he do that?
I've zoned out from most of it
 
8:44 AM
> The RFC process defines a veto and could be applied when needed.
Luckily it never happened. That does not mean it can never be applied,
there are cases where it will happen, by default.
 
Pierre talks out of his ass a lot. Ask him where the process says it?
 
9:00 AM
twitter.com/zeevs/status/1173478624235859974 - from this insight, why is the constructive rather then destructive step missing introducing a simple RFC to amend the voting rfc to include 4/5 for deprecation RFCs, many deprecations pass almost unamious anyways
 
@JoeWatkins
 
9:13 AM
Blurgh I hope not. It's hard enough to get stuff done.
 
@MarkR i don't know, take the 7.4 deprecations RFC, all but one would have been accepted also with 4/5: wiki.php.net/rfc/deprecations_php_7_4
 
yeah, he was just wrong about that
@beberlei would be better to introduce a deprecation policy, 2/3 is plenty of a majority I think, but whatever majority is required, it's the way in which deprecations are carried out that needs to be clear ... you should not be able to vote on disabling something (by default) if it is not deprecated, you should not be able to vote on removing something that has not been deprecated, and probably it would be wise to abolish the need for removal rfcs, because removal follows deprecation at a pace
set by release process
the vote should be held on whether something should be deprecated, disablement and removal follows from deprecation policy ... simple ...
 
9:30 AM
I see the issue that depreciation has a lot of overlap with just plain improvements. Case in point is the latest engine warnings.
 
it depends how rigid you want to be in your interpretation of the policy, or how rigid the policy is in it's wording ... in some sense changing established behaviour is obviously a deprecation so that just changing it outright would be out of the question, on the other hand the policy may allow the reader to interpret and frame a change as either a deprecation or an improvement, which may be useful for the proposer, and also might not work ...
we're not seeking to make it harder to get stuff done, that wriggle room may be useful for the proposer, I'd probably try to allow for that ... if the consensus is that the change cannot be framed as an improvement then the proposer is not free to ignore that whatever ...
 
It's a fair point. I think we're going to end up re-hashing the same argument for every depreciation (e.g. depreciations are bad) and we would benefit from a general "direction" so far as what we want to do.
So if there could be a concensus that 8.0, for example, could be the version where PHP "fixes its mistakes" knowing full well it would risk adoption rate, that could act as a guide for related RFCs
 
I'm not sure how that could be turned into a votable-rfc though
 
10:08 AM
now we have to play by rules written in documents that only exist in the minds of some old timers ...
 
@MarkR the problem with that general idea is that it makes it harder for us to change our collective mind. Getting better at correcting mistakes is probably the most important thing we can do.
 
somehow my mind screams "he only wants to be able to singlehandedly decline rfc's" when i read his mail and especially the part with majority vs minority
if you set the bar too high dont you run into the same problem just with switched positions
aka "enabled tyranny of minority"
or do i get something wrong here?
 
10:36 AM
I think you're spot on :-/
 
@unlink(@zeevs);
4
I think it works, no exceptions ...
 
So, can someone explain to me, in a nutshell, who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. I'm getting a headache trying to parse it from the messages
/giphy are we the bad guys
 
it's very hard to tell, I think I'm pushing in the right direction, and in the same direction as those contributors I respect ... but I can't really know if I'm doing the right thing, or if they are ...
 
@Jimbo Zeev basically said "I don't like where RFCs are going: I'm gonna get my old friends and we're gonna take over decisions"
and then a dozen threads around that.
 
@Stricted to be clear, his main motivation is helping PHP. It’s just that almost no-one agrees with him.
 
10:43 AM
yeah, or Z is the bad guy is another reasonable answer ...
 
I wouldn't say "bad". Most dictators don't see themselves as "bad"
 
well I can think of a few other 3 and 4 letter words, but they probably aren't a lot more constructive ... more descriptive, but not constructive ...
 
@JoeWatkins I would say that core contributors do have some sort of de facto veto by reaching consensus that something is actively harmful... But this is only for technical, not political or personal reasons...
 
I made mention of a technical delay, the point was to establish that a positive vote implies that we are committed to making the change and nobody has a veto over the result of a vote ...
there's no situation where we would say "even though X has been voted in, and there is a suitable implementation, we aren't going to merge it" ... that is the only case in which you would need an actual veto over the result of a vote, and that doesn't and can't happen ...
afk, school run
 
10:58 AM
By the way I sort of agree there shall be no tyranny of the majority, though, this is best controlled by restricting who can vote - which we already sort of do by restricting who can have a php.net account. Possibly needs to be a bit further restricted, but currently that is not a real issue
But definitely not restricted to a group of 10 people
 
@brzuchal question, did you consider that = {foo="bar"}, the foo could be a defined constant?
 
God, this is like Brexit for PHP.
2% majority and we're all fucked.
 
@beberlei no, I was considering those literals as property name only
 
@brzuchal i think thats a conflict that you shoudl mention in the RFC how it should be resolved
 
if I would consider that then property names probably should be in quotes and that could lead a to lot of issues with strings not being actually a valid property name
@beberlei right now it would be a syntax error, it is
Or did you mean it should be described that those are property names only and if there is a const with the same name it has no impact on property initialization?
 
11:06 AM
@Jimbo No 2% majority here on internals. Z mentions it being 10-to-1 (for something else), which is apt here. (And Brexit was a 4% majority)
 
11:21 AM
So I disproved one of his claims, and yet another goalpost moving...
 
cmb
Re https://bugs.php.net/78543
If .get_closure throws, shouldn't is_callable() catch this and return false?
Or shouldn't .get_closure throw in the first place?
 
@ircmaxell you need to work on the enjoyability of your twittering!
 
/me rolls eyes
 
11:38 AM
Hehehe
 
Just got back from a course, now to catch up on what train wreck i've missed in the past 2 hours xD
Oh, only 30 ML posts since I went to bed. This is fine ¬_¬
 
@brzuchal i totally get your reasoning, just saying that you should clarify that you decided to have this behavior.
 
Maybe someone needs to draft a proper RFC including governance matters, CoC and all together to just cleanup with that topic for once and forever
 
Can't really be done @bwoebi. If you can use an RFC to create governance matters, you can use an RFC to change it, meaning the usual suspects can use the own process to argue for t hings to change into their favour. At best it can provide a period of temporary peace
 
@MarkR sure. Just specifically state that amendements to that RFC need something like 80% acceptance or such. Makes it incredibly hard to pass anything egoistical
 
11:54 AM
The closest you're going to get is electing a leader / moderator to preside over the entire group for a fixed period, and that person wielding somewhat higher power to enforce moderation
 
heck ... even in most constitutional parliaments, there is no more than a 2/3 majority needed to amend the constitution itself...
 
I think pushing it tp 80% is stupid. 2/3rd is good enough
 
@Derick I personally agree that 2/3 is enough. I wouldn't object to a slightly higher bar though.
 
maybe restrict the voters to include only core contributors and docs people and not community?
for amending the RFC process
 
why should it include docs people?
docs editor(s), sure... but all translators?
 
11:57 AM
not sure what different roles there are in docs, so i couldn't say :)
 
I would say anyone with over a certain commit threshold to core repos
 
there are lots of translators that have translated a few pages only...
 
Using commits is a bit... I'm not going to say unfair, but it doesn't consider wider contributions.
 
And for the record, I think the only time voting should be > 2/3 would be in the case of a veto. Veto power should be nearly unanimous
@MarkR for project governance decisions I think it is reasonable
But more important than voting threshold I think is quorum. How many must vote for the vote to count? Is 2 enough? 30?
 
For example, this conversation has exactly zero to do with committing code, yet the time that has been spent on it among people on here over the past week or two, countless hours, discussing and debating, clearly has value.
 
12:04 PM
but maybe vetos should not be initiaed by a single person, say if core contributors want to veto an RFC that was made by all voters, then at least 5 must come forward with the will to veto, otherwise its not put to discussion or vote to Veto
otherwise a single person can cry veto every time and lead the core contributors into a discussion
 
That seems sensible
 
@ircmaxell I think quorum is a non-issue for php-src. Sometimes RFCs touch subjects where far less people are experts in (e.g. affecting an ext) ... then we've seen only 10 people participating. But that's fine, if these people are informed enough.
 
or maybe veto power should be the group of all active RMs
 
@bwoebi I think there are fine lines there. Pragmatically I agree with you, however process is always a trade-off. So not 100% sure either way. But definitely I would want quorum for vetos.
 
I think any vetoes should come with a requirement to explain why
 
12:09 PM
@beberlei will do that, thanks
 
@ircmaxell for vetos, for sure.
 
@MarkR I think a veto must be an RFC, but one that has a constrained voting base
I may try to put together a charter document. One that encompasses project governance, CoC, karma, formalize the group, etc...
Oh, and a mission statement.
 
@ircmaxell with group you just mean everyone who has passed the thresholds to participate in veto votes and core governing questions, right?
 
I think of everything you just said, a mission statement should be the #1 priority. Get that through and then everyone knows what the goal is before voting on the rest.
The proverbial getting everyone on the same page
 
@bwoebi no, I mean redefining membership, roles, and responsibilities of "the PHP group", as currently it is all but undefined. And like it or not, it is in the license, so should be formalized
 
12:19 PM
ah okay
 
@MarkR I used to think that. But with these debates today, I think that it can't be passed without clarifying project governance. And governance can't be clarified without touching in a ton of other areas. And a CoC is more needed than ever.
 
@ircmaxell please do that ...
or please, do that ... or please. do. that ... or omg pdt lol
 
Let me know when you have that open @MarkR
 
@ircmaxell i gladly assist with anything you need, i feel i can't bring that on my own as for not having enough karma, but I like to help
 
Looking at it now
 
12:21 PM
@beberlei my intention would be to start it as a Google doc in this room
And then make a repo out of it once we are happy with it, and make the proposal at that point (so then discussion can be done in a PR)
I have some ideas I will toss in a doc when I get on the train, and will upload it in a little while
 
@DaveRandom but...
 
… her emails?
 
Stack overflow due to nested serialized input – #78549
 
12:37 PM
@StatikStasis context?
 
1:10 PM
@Danack I'll take a look, I'm not familiar with PECL yet :)
 
Afternoon \o
 
o/
 
Managed a good bit on the train. Need to write the RFC process stuff, but the rest of the governance model is down
Will upload and share when I get to the office (about 30 or 40 minutes)
 
I think a lot more words are required, but I'm not sure what they are
 
Oh, a ton more
 
1:19 PM
but I like the shape of it, roughly ... just blow it up like a big balloon and we'll be good ...
 
That doc isn't what I wrote today. That is about 1/8 of the doc ;). The majority of what I wrote today is around governance. I left a spot open to copy/paste that doc into this one.
 
ah I might have missed half a day somehow
no, I was here earlier ... how long has that been there ?
 
That doc I did a month or so ago
This new one is in a note on my laptop since I didn't have WiFi on the train
 
I'm quite confused, how did I find that ?
I thought you just posted it in here a few minutes ago, but I don't see where that happened now ...
 
I did, as a reference to @markr saying we need a vision. And I said we did some work on while recently, and shared the doc
 
1:24 PM
oh I see it ... okay ...
 
I will post up the new edition once I get to the office.
This commute sucks for that type of thing. 1:40 each way. 1 hour on the train, 20 minutes of subway, and 20 minutes walking (10 on each end of the commute)
 
I dunno how you can work on a train at all, it's moving and filled with strangers ....
 
Hi
 
For no particular reason, does anyone know where there is a list of current PHP VCS account holders?
(and in case that's the wrong word, a list of people who can commit to PHP's git repo.)
 
I am getting an HTML response from ajax . I am looking for solution through which I will get URL of that ajax call in that HTML.. I tried different options but still I am getting current browsers URL and not ajax call URL..


console.log('document.location', document.location.href);
console.log('location.pathname',  window.location.pathname); // Returns path only
console.log('location.href', window.location.href); // Returns full URL
 
1:35 PM
 
@Danack isn't there a file? Committed into the repo that has the list?
 
@danack people.php.net lists the karma on the individual pages but I don't know of any single list
 
Ah, yes, that one. On mobile, so :/
Thanks!
 
thanks peeps.
> avail|mcmontero,blade106,scottmac,andrewleica,danack|pecl/imagick,phpdoc
I know scottmac.....but not seen him active for 8 years....any idea who the other people are?
 
@Gordon that's not good :(
@Danack Nope, none of those ring a bell other than Scott...
 
@mega6382 Mondays. =)
 
@salathe ah, the infamous PHP Group at the very bottom of that file
 
@StatikStasis lol
 
2:23 PM
@ircmaxell I missed some discussion here, why would there be a veto at all?
 
I like the guy in the back who plays "the hands." youtube.com/watch?v=I_2D8Eo15wE
 
@JoeWatkins ^^
(and @bwoebi and @MarkR and @Danack, and @salathe, and all the others that expressed interest in this sort of thing)
@NikiC there doesn't have to be. It was something that was discussed, so I formalized it in a proposal...
 
It was discussed ... but as far as I'm aware the veto concept is only something in Zeev's mind and only intended for nefarious purposes.
 
@NikiC I'm not sure whether it's necessary, I guess it's more to avert Zeevs scenario of a """tyranny of the majority"""
 
@ircmaxell Request to RO, please pin this.
 
2:27 PM
@NikiC which is why I want to get ahead of it, and actually formalize it and put limits around it
@mega6382 done
 
@ircmaxell I think it would be better to formalize it in the form of "there is no veto"
 
:)
 
> and consider the interests of all of PHP's users, past
Why care about past users?
 
@NikiC I'd be fine with that as well...
 
They already moved on
 
2:28 PM
@PeeHaa the code may still be running
 
@ircmaxell (we both pinned it at the exact same second :-D)
 
Ah. Different definition of past users
k
 
The only veto we actually have and need is an implementation "veto", which is not really a veto but a "source code is still subject to review" thing.
 
yeah, that
I.e. like what happened with the ??= proposal
"on hold until a good enough implementation is found"
 
right
 
2:29 PM
@NikiC but isn't that the same thing as an actual veto?
 
@ircmaxell no, see bob's example
 
otherwise that means RFCs are not binding at all, since core devs can do whatever they want?
 
Core devs still need an implementation that is technically sound (obviously), but they can't reject an accepted RFC because they just don't like the RFC
Sometimes it takes a lot of time until we do arrive at that technically sound implementation
 
yeah, and if somebody finds an implementation which fixes the outstanding issues, then it can be merged.
 
I felt like ignoring Zeev was overall a better plan. Has it become too noisy to ignore?
 
2:33 PM
And obviously, that "core devs" thing ... is pretty much required to be an unanimous decision (in the sense, any core dev may merge, but no core dev may revert without a sound rationale)
 
Oh, I get it, and agree in principle, I just think it's a slipery slope. How would you word the veto part then? get rid of the text and say "impleemntations may be vetoed, but RFCs may not"
 
@ircmaxell Maintainers may defer merging an implementation until a patch is deemed suitable on technical grounds.
 
yeah, something like that
And it's really about "defer" not "veto"
 
all of what nikita is saying is my exact understanding of how things are and should be formalized
 
pasDeSolutionALED – #78550
 
2:35 PM
Though "defer" may also be "defer indefinitely" if nobody is interested in actually working on it
E.g. we have some apxs2 rfc sitting around for a couple of years now ^^
 
yep
 
done
 
@ircmaxell there has never been an accepted RFC which has not been merged given enough time to improve the implementation
 
well, apart from short_tags
But that was a process mistake. I should have merged the improved implementation, and not go through the farce
 
@NikiC this. :-P
@NikiC (I btw. wish for a retry of this at a later point in time)
 
2:39 PM
I think that principally going through a second RFC was the right thing to do, but unfortunately it also gave Zeev a foothold that he should not have been given.
 
Re: this charter and RFC voting, can I suggest not using the 3-way-vote again.
 
@ircmaxell erm ... yea. I'm not sure whether it's really going to help granting Zeev a lifetime seat (and Andi too, which I haven't really seen for ages) on the PHP Group. Sure, it's great that they have past achievements ... but I don't think I would do that.
 
@bwoebi I don't think it has a chance of passing if we don't offer some carrots
 
@ircmaxell not sure if changing anything about the php group will work on legal grounds. It likely needs to remain a fixed entity. You'll likely want a separately named body if you want to have it.
 
@ircmaxell The carrot would be for me to not have them on the group permanently. I don't want somebody exhibiting such egoistical and aggressive traits on that group.
 
2:45 PM
hmm
 
@bwoebi otherwise it could be viewed as a coup
 
how about we start a riot against Z
(obv not serious)
 
@NikiC the group is as it is defined in credits. It is not a legal entity (there is no registered group as far as I am aware)
 
@ircmaxell He shall be for sure eligible to the group and may propose himself.
 
@NikiC as you're here I wanted to ask a couple of things, the first I don't know if I've mentioned to you before, which is about distinction of engine-level warnings / notices vs function ones (E_CORE_XXX?) and the second is, am I reading this code right that we only have 3 bits of common flags left? Are we going to be forced to combine "stricty" features together to not use them all up? (I've been reviewing how strict exceptions could be added)
 
2:47 PM
But it should be up to the community to decide whether they want him. And it will also force him to be a bit more moderate I hope.
 
@MarkR yes, we have three flags left. Feel free to use them though. We may either try shrinking some, or expand flag space if really needed.
 
^2 this could be really nice. I mean the idea of having the community to decide for a group
 
@ircmaxell Yes, but it still (ostensibly) has the right to do license changes for example, so I suspect that changing anything there will not be well-received
I think it would be better to leave the php group with only control of the license and do anything else as a separate group
 
@NikiC which is why I chose the structure, giving lifetime seats...
@NikiC that's fair enough. I'll restructure and not define membership of the group (but explciitly state its role)
 
okay
 
2:50 PM
if they only have control of the license, the only thing they could do is change the licence to be completely unacceptable to contributors, but that would be their own internal mechanics to decide if to approve that, seems highly unlikely
 
@NikiC done
So, do you think a separate group (a core committe or something) is needed for resolving disputes? The same group as part of the Code of Conduct enforcement perhaps?
 
@ircmaxell yes, I think this should be a single entity
@NikiC This clause sounds unenforcable to me. If they change the license, it's always possible for everyone to just push the repo otherwhere and continue adding code under the old license... Unless everyone accepts it it would be pretty much a fork of the project.
 
it would have to be a fork and rebrand one would assume
 
The only right they formally have, is granting usage of the name PHP.
 
Yeah, so if that ever happened, whatever people ended up working on would be PHP, but probably coudln't be called PHP
 
2:57 PM
@bwoebi no. They are allowed to change the version, but the project can decide if it should ship with that version ;)
 
@ircmaxell Yeah, that's what I was pointing to ;-)
 
Ohhhh something to read
Kinda surprised it holds in 10 pages @ircmaxell
 
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