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00:09
maybe @ThW knows a bit more though?
oh good point
(btw, the grep tricks link I shared is pretty awesome.)
heap use after free in _php_stream_free – #76409
00:52
@Tiffany You are moving along!
@PeeHaa It's actually been acting up lately. I've used it a number of times without issue- but here lately the text field for typing sometimes gets hidden and then you have to wait so you can scroll down and hit send. It's been weird like that since sometime this week. First time that has happened.
@DaveRandom OMG I understand this. I keep 30-40 tabs open at any given time.
morning
Wes
Wes
01:48
a wild paul appears. sometimes he disappears for weeks
paul, paul, bo baul banana fana fo faul fee fi mo maul. pa ul
Wes
Wes
\o
02:21
Evening.
Wes
Wes
o/
Wes
Wes
02:54
uh i thought means (noun) was plural
03:18
morning room.
Wes
Wes
last avail version is 2.16
o/
04:19
\o
Night all
Wes
Wes
04:33
gn
 
1 hour later…
06:02
morning
Wes
Wes
\o
06:57
o/
 
1 hour later…
08:00
doss Chiefly British. to sleep or lie down in any convenient place.
@FélixGagnon-Grenier One of my top 3 Q&A is about getting data from PHP to JS
hi, what are the best sources for learning the php project organization?
where would I get that "3d view" of things
when you work on a project, you do have that 3d view, right?
interconnected network of things, 3d
like I would be looking at the IDE screen and I build behind the monitor
@ten5 It really depends on the project
There's generally no hollywood-style view of the project
At least, not one that's really helpful
or maybe a cuboid of things, like a skyscraper that you build
or like a table with a glass surface and you construct things "underneath it" in 3d
There's no such thing.
08:08
ok, so there is no one best way, it seems like it could be
out of the logic, lets say thinking that all kind of makes its sense in the outside world, falls together in some way
so this has to be there, I would imagine, some sense, some the best order of things or way of doing things
and I imagine that it would be this 3d view and this is what I need to learn
like a key or the secret of knowing the php
the syntax, the functions are like the decoration of a Christmas tree, and I dont know how to put up a Christmas tree yet, and after that all would be an easy thing
I mean directories - files (within them) - database - this is the skeleton, I guess
@ten5 Knowing how to model your problem around a program and how to reach a solution is basically what programming is
namespaces, scope of variables or arrays, oop - this is somehow laid out in some way too
The language itself in use doesn't matter.
the issue is that I dont get that, after like 14 months of edu (like studying)
and the question is - where would I learn, what would be the best source?
University won't teach you that, not really.
08:11
paid tutor probably would be the best, good programmer that would explai
@ten5 Experience, and hanging around people with more experience and knowledge than you.
there are books, slideshows and things like this too
@ten5 That works too, if you're serious and have the funds.
no funds
Most of my early programming experience came from this room.
I stayed in this chatroom for a few years and said some stupid stuff and got yelled at, until the stuff I said became less stupid.
08:13
I can think about it as directories and files - this would be like the "most superficial constant", it will always be present and so on, also a database
and go from there
so the top layer I already see
directories/ files + a database
what could be the next layer of this "view"
scope of variables, array - just make it all global to start
I mean, it is obviously not your role to explain or anything
like a scheme of things in which everything else falls into in a certain way
like that toy for kids when they insert this 3d figures like triangle, square and so on
so we insert everything through the (directories)/files + database
top level
what is the next level?
underneath this
session, scope of variables
we either have certain things or not
session does not have to be used
so there is a certain collection of things and we decide if we apply it to the project or not
@ten5 The advice I can give you is: Stay in this room, like for a long time, talk to people, you probably wouldn't find better PHP experts than in here.
Also, write stuff
Stuff you think are too hard for you right now, ask for advice when you get stuck
people say download already existing scripts (start with small) and work with that, you can expand it with your own code and so on
so this would be that "physical" aspect, I would build my "strenght" off the top of what somebody esle already did
understand it, add some code and make it somehow "my own" as a whole
so start small project and expand to bigger and bigger
but do you thing that it can be explained this way - (directories)/files + database (just 1 lets assume)
it will always be present
so I put these 3d squares and triangles through these holes
whats underneath it?
the second level down
I need to look at all these "syntax" things on a beginner level, like namespaces, classes, and so on
oop could be different as the project does not have to be the oop
so the second level could be oop or non-oop
would this make sense?
non-oop look at like namespaces, the scope of variables, the "structure" things
oop, if present, all project or to a certain extent, consider the oop "structure" first
There's no clear order to things. Just start writing stuff and figure it out as you go along.
would this be on the right path of thinking more or less?
oop, non-oop as the second layer and go from there
There's no one true way
08:24
non-oop look at something like PHP for Dummies and apply all the things from there to the structure skeleton that you will be using
It's not a question of OOP vs non-OOP, write stuff, try it out, see what you like and what works for you, argue with people, listen when they tell you you're wrong.
ok, what I am thinking can have its use, it is my experience, my thoughts, I could go with that, and then modify
in the end, the number of these things is limited, like 10
directories-files-database-classes--objects--methods------scope-of-variables-namespaces
@ten5 You're thinking too much and doing too little. Instead of trying to obsess about the one true way, start doing things, you'll understand more and more as you go along
I mean a set and small number of things that we need to decide on and organize
And you can always ask specific questions
You're falling for the trap of thinking too much about the faraway future, just start doing something at the now
08:26
I dont want to argue or anything, but I would say that there could be one the best order of things
out of the how things work in general (all, in nature and so on)
@ten5 I can tell you, after at least 10 years of experience, that there isn't one true best order of things.
ok
but this is a good topic, I think
and I think that I need to figure this out now
I need to have that skeleton and put what I already know on that, and then I would be like 3 times stronger than now
but this is my personal situation and so on
but somebody has suggested this, I was talking to a person that I met at a store in a mall, php programmer
he looked at me like I dont understand
I practice the painting of the decoration of a Christmas tree instead of knowing how to setup and have the tree first
well, what can I skip for now
or how to approach this "my view"
Wes
Wes
you are monopolizing the chat again
namespaces - skip, dont include that
oop - do non-oop first
maybe like that
figure out the lowest hanging fruit first
@Wes - would you say that there can be one good order of things?
Just do what you think, also, try not to flood the chat with messages
08:32
ok
I could see that coming ...
@wes @JoeWatkins - can there be one the best "order of things"
glass table, and we build underneath it in 3d; first layer - directories/files + database (we put all these square and triangle figures through these holes; like this toy for kids)
Wes
Wes
learn stuff as you need it............. we've been saying this for ages
yes, this is my personal situation / issue, no point of bothering with this here
but my assumption is - yes, this one way of doing things can or should exists
@ten5 Please stop, you've been given the advice you seek, and everyone here will tell (and have been telling) you the same.
08:36
he won't stop ...
@JoeWatkins Then you have my permission, nay, my encouragement, to be liberal with kicking.
I tried that ...
I also tried asking if they were broken ...
expletives removes for brevity ...
@JoeWatkins Don't be snarky, just kick. 3 kicks trigger a mod flag.
At which point we'd look into it and see if suspensions are in order.
oh I didn't know that ... the dude is a pita ... I wasn't even sure it was a real person at one point ...
No need to make a big deal out of things :)
08:39
Hehe. Good morning 3d viewers.
@Wes Heh, that's actually pretty good
Assuming you don't have personal belongings you need to take with you
Wes
Wes
:P
the time i spend every time finding fonts for headings...... damn
08:55
posted on June 03, 2018

New Cyanide and Happiness Comic

09:28
@Wes Could I bother you with a bit of translation to Italian?
Wes
Wes
sure
Would I be right in saying "niente articoli" (for no articles), "un articolo" (for one article) and "# articoli" where # is any number aside from 0 and 1?
Wes
Wes
depends, are you printing like an empty box with "no articles available at the moment" or something?
Yes
Exactly that
Wes
Wes
must be like 2 words or can use a phrase?
09:31
@MadaraUchiha my current policy is to just tell ten5 to get to a doctor. He's had this behaviour for years and it's massively self-destructive, and should be treated medically imnsho.
2 words
Ideally a direct translation from "No articles" as opposed to "1 article" or "100 articles"
@Danack Yeah, I wouldn't get snarky and suggest mental issues, but just calmly explain to them why what they're doing (flooding the room, asking the same question over and over) is not acceptable, and if they persist, kick them.
Wes
Wes
"no articles" sounds strange even in english though
shouldn't it be like "content unavailable" or something
We do. I've tried explaining that no-one is going to hire him while he's acting like he is currently acting. He tries to ignore it.
Wes
Wes
what you wrote is correct though
Hmm, to be fair, in the English version, we do use 0 articles
Does 0 articoli make more sense?
Wes
Wes
09:34
0 articoli, 1 articolo, 2+ articoli is what i'd write
Huzzah
Thanks a bunch! The translator translated the wrong string and I CBA going through the whole process of having them re-translate that tiny 2 word sentence.
Wes
Wes
yw :B
09:51
(gdb) r
Starting program: /opt/bin/php bin/idbg
[Thread debugging using libthread_db enabled]
Using host libthread_db library "/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libthread_db.so.1".
Welcome to idbg v0.0.1dev:
Inspector:	v0.1.0dev
Opcache:	enabled, No Optimizations
PHP:		v7.2.7-dev
idbg> break test::method#2
idbg> run file://../inspector/debug.php
Begin:
[7ffff3a74440] hit breakpoint #1 at method#2 (DO_FCALL) in /opt/src/inspector/debug.php on line 4
   :001 <?php
   :002 class Test {
   :003 	public function method($f) {
@bwoebi :D
there's still so much to do ...
I'm lonely ... hit hint ...
we need a (better) break point manager for managing temporary breaks and implementing stepping, I'm confident the tools are working well enough that anyone could do it now ... bob ... you ... maybe ...
we also need to abstract i/o so that it's easy to plug in dbgp ...
you get some strangeness, like if you next through a path that might jump to return but doesn't, then continue on an instruction past that original instruction, you'll hit the temporary break at the return, because it wasn't removed ...
also you can next through idbg code, which is a bit strange, we can stop it ... so many niggles ...
10:16
@JoeWatkins I think I could spare some time the next week until like 4 pm :-)
10:34
morns
10:51
o/
11:39
@JoeWatkins I see opcache enabled - so you managed to work around it? :-)
sigh
@Wes Could I ask you for one last small favor?
(Hopefully small)
Wes
Wes
sure :B
@bwoebi yeah, should work in all modes now ... and work the same in all modes ...
Could you go on it.coinbrainer.com and tell me if my suspicion that the translator basically outsourced to Google Translate is correct or not?
Just if the texts largely make sense, or if they have obvious wats, click on a few links and tell me?
@JoeWatkins awesome
11:43
krakjoe@fiji:/opt/src/idbg$ bin/idbg
Welcome to idbg v0.0.1dev:
Inspector:	v0.1.0dev
Opcache:	disabled
PHP:		v7.2.7-dev
idbg> help
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Command   Abbreviations Parameters
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
break     (br)          File or Method or Symbol with Offset (Any)
enable    (en)          Numeric
disable   (di)          Numeric
delete    (de)          Numeric
breaks
continue  (co)
it's kinda cute ...
Wes
Wes
cant tell if it's correct. no idea about the language used in this kind of things
seems mostly correct tho
CoinWatch è uno strumento di ricerca completo che consente agli investitori di vedere le notizie più recenti sui media e il sentimento delle notizie e ottenere informazioni sul mondo delle criptovalute.

this is wrong :B
il sentimento delle notizie means "the feelings of the news" :B
@Wes Yeah, in English it's actually "news sentiment"
You can change the language at the top with the selector to see the same site in English
Wes
Wes
@MadaraUchiha looks like it's translated to "andamento news" in other sites
@Wes "trend"?
Wes
Wes
i'm not sure about that
is it the bearish bullish thing? it's "andamento"
11:54
@Wes Yeah, "bearish" is roughly "negative" and "bullish" is roughly "positive"
Wes
Wes
andamento means "pace"
!!en CoinWatch è uno strumento di ricerca completo che consente agli investitori di vedere le notizie più recenti sui media e il sentimento delle notizie e ottenere informazioni sul mondo delle criptovalute.
@IROEGBU Sorry, I don't speak en
What?
Wes
Wes
11:58
CoinWatch è uno strumento di ricerca completo che consente agli investitori di esaminare l'andamento delle notizie più recenti sui media e ottenere informazioni sul mondo delle criptovalute. @MadaraUchiha
Thanks! I'll pass it along
Aside from that nothing too obviously bad? We didn't call anyone's mothers names?
Wes
Wes
converter -> convertitore
vaglio i have no idea whats that
@Wes Translated from "screener"
A tool that helps you find coins (or stocks, originally) that you're interested in based on filterable criteria
Wes
Wes
@MadaraUchiha "filtra" o "cerca"
two verbs, translate to "filter" and "search"
12:13
I have had this question for a long time. Why is @MadaraUchiha blue? O.o
@2dsharp I'm a moderator
Ahh. I was starting to think everyone regular in this room is. :P
@2dsharp I have a similar question for a long time too. Why the avatar of some users has a shadow ?
@Shafizadeh On main, right? That's a privilege, 1k rep I think.
@2dsharp There are 3 "ranks" in chat, normal users with normal names, room owners with italic names (which have some powers only in the rooms in which they own), and moderators, whose names are blue like mine, who have powers everywhere in chat.
12:26
@MadaraUchiha Yes on the main website pages. But I don't think it's because of 1k rep. Since "Mohammad Hamedani" doesn't have that shadow, but some other guys have.
Minimum of 28 characters in the "about me" section
oh I see .. good to know
So that shadow determines being expandable
Also as a consultant, I have a qanda website like SE, it isn't only for programmers, and even artistic's questions can be asked there. My question is about the editor, do you think can people use such a editor which (for example) appends two asterisks surround the string to make it bold?
You know, I'm worried about users cannot understand it, since they all are not programmers.
@Shafizadeh qanda or Q&A?
lol qanda, took me a while to figure that one out
"qanda? Is that a misspelling of canada?"
q&a
@MadaraUchiha nope, it's the name of the variable I use in the code, since I don't like to use & in the name of variable
12:39
@Shafizadeh It's an illegal character
also I guess using & isn't accepteble in PHP as part of variable name
But I'd go with qAndA or something
@Shafizadeh That's why the editor also has buttons at the top
@MadaraUchiha yeah writing it as camel-case seems better
@MadaraUchiha the editor I have made has those buttons too, but when you click on them, still those stars will be appended inside the textarea (I mean they are visible for user)
@Shafizadeh That's good
As long as there's also a preview area
This doubles as a teaching aid, showing your users that typing the characters yourself can work too if you want to keep using the keyboard.
Also, use the HTML title= attribute to tell your users about keyboard shortcuts
For example, normally, CTRL+B (or CMD+B for Mac) would cause the text to be bold
the editor I made both has shortcuts and title for description and preview area. But still I'm worried about misunderstanding or them, Because there isn't any other Iranian website which uses such a editor
12:46
@Shafizadeh Really? What do other Iranian editors have?
Only WYSIWYG?
Iranian websites use APIs, they use editors like Microsoft-Word. It just make the selected string bold instead of adding two stars surround it
also I guess my sentence isn't clear enough, sorry I don't know English very well
12:58
@Shafizadeh my condolences
@Shafizadeh That's a WYSIWYG, "What You See Is What You Get"
That is, you see only the final result in the editor, and it supposed to look the same after you save it.
more like WYSIWTF
@tereško <obligatory xkcd link>
@tereško :D ..! I will make a AB-test for it, between my own editor and a WYSIWYG editor
I hope user be ok with my own editor
because I will be really sad about that 2 month working on making it
The biggest problem with WYSIWYGs is that almost always it's not all that simple, and the final result doesn't look the same, especially seeing how you support different browsers and different resolutions.
13:00
I would just go with markdown
@MadaraUchiha yes true
@tereško because you're a developer
not really
our marketing people are really happy about having a makrdown editor
and it's actually being used in a lot of online chat tools, like Discord
really?! are morkdown-editors common in your country (the available websites in your country)?
you should pick right tool for a task
the task is an editor for asking a question (it can be in different field), what's the right editor for it? mark down of WYSIWYG ?
13:12
Even a markdown editor can provide much of wysiwyg's features. Users don't necessarily have to enter the markdown manually. Most editors provide buttons for adding i.e. hyperlinks, images, text formatting etc.
And with SLT on those markdowns you can probably provide some more custom features as well.
I know what you're saying and the editor I've made has those buttons (making bold, italic, heading ... adding image, link etc ..). But I put it exposed to the test via my sister. She clicked on the button to make a word bold, and then she removed those appended stars .. :-)
she thought they (stars) are useless
@mega6382 Sorry, a misspelling I meant, ASTs.
@Shafizadeh your UI just sucks: stackedit.io/app
see how it is done here
buuuut
you can work on that later
also, it might be a good idea to create an optional "interactive tour" aimed at new users for when they first time see a new part of the site - that's how many games do it (especially the more complicated ones)
@MadaraUchiha He does this... every... single... day. It always starts the same way too. Asks about learning php, talks about skyscrapers, foundations, building codes...
13:21
@StatikStasis I've instructed the room owners to be slightly more liberal with kicks against them
Explain what they're doing wrong, and if they continue, kick.
@tereško this is what my teammate is working on. He is making a short video and train how to work with the editor in Persian. And we will publish it on Aparat (it's Iranian youtube)
btw, here is a business idea for you: create a standalone product, which would work with existing sites for creating interactive tours (not in form of videos, but in form of interactive popups ... maybe you have seen sites with those "blue + icons" in their "product tours")
there probably is not a tool, that actually works with right-to-left language sites
there are a few website which give that feature
I actually doubt that
but you know, people don't read text :-) ..! They are much more happy with videos
They just skip all steps of those popups
13:36
@StatikStasis he only keeps talking when people 'encourage' him. Either ignore him, or just tell him to get to a doctor for his condition.
@Danack He's been told to get a doctor, countless times. I doubt that ever helped.
@tereško There are several libraries that do this
Most prominently: introjs.com
@MadaraUchiha you missed the "business" part :D
13:57
evenin phpians.
14:15
@MadaraUchiha and he switches accounts, this is like the third or fourth account
I wouldn't be surprised if he switches again
Just got shortlisted for a PHP internship, would get a technical interview over the phone tomorrow. Can anyone suggest me stuff I should read/revise about?
@Tiffany He's getting more and more charming by the minute...
Why did you guys not raise chat flags about this guy? (Looking at you room owners)
Why am I only hearing about this apparent plague on the room only now?
@MadaraUchiha No way, I assumed you'd been made aware already.
@2dsharp sql injections, basic XSS prevention
Well, no one flagged or pinged, so nope.
14:23
also, "over a phone"? really?
do you people not have access to skype
@2dsharp owasp
@tereško Well, they didn't mention skype.
@MadaraUchiha I thought there have been people that have said something to you before about it
I don't know, I thought phone interviews are pretty common.
I remember seeing @s at you regarding him
14:24
Yo bitches (m/f)
@2dsharp not in my country - we almost exclusively have in-person interviews
@PeeHaa lol
@tereško Ahh, thanks. Anything else?
then again, I live in a 2-million country
@Shafizadeh Thanks, I will look into it.
@tereško We are in billions.
14:25
@tereško Well, seeing as driving from one side of the country to the other one takes all of 15 minutes, that would make sense :D
@tereško I have a phone interview on Tuesday because the job is in Arizona and like a day's drive away
@Tiffany what? It's the summer of love inclusivity
:p
@tereško also, yes. The job is 3 states away.
@2dsharp understanding of how "pass by reference" actually works and why it is not necessary harmful in php5 for objects
@tereško Really? I thought that objects are pass by value
14:26
@PeeHaa youtube.com/watch?v=kCbD8nsxcd8 tiny bit late, but still
@MadaraUchiha i already told you about that plague before
@PeeHaa Must have missed it or misread its importance then, apologies.
@tereško Thanks, I need to look at that.
@MadaraUchiha in php they are "pass by handler", and if you are using a reference there, then it is a reference to a handler (which will fuck with ref-counting and cause memory leaks)
@tereško Is it not the case that the object's "value" is also called a reference, but passing an object by reference still has the same semantics? (i.e. if you reassign to the referenced variable, it will also change the one passed from above)
@tereško Ah, didn't know it had negative effects with ref-counting and memory-leaks
14:29
@MadaraUchiha no need for apologies :p
@PeeHaa I have failed my duties as your patron moderator.
Mar 30 at 17:35, by Tiffany
I'm un-ignoring you just this once, @ThomasMorgan/@AaronSmith/@TomJohnson, talk to your general physician, explain that you need mental help, ask for a recommendation to either a therapist, counselor, or psychologist, AND GET HELP MAN
I blame @DaveRandom either way
I shall now perform, seppuku.
those are the three other accounts he has
14:30
@MadaraUchiha as long as you are not on my payroll it's all good
@MadaraUchiha there is a bit old lecture which among other subject will cover that: youtube.com/watch?v=bxxIXPc9IR8 //cc @2dsharp
Btw what is your iban? :-D
back to playing ONI, drinking beer and listening to a talk from Sargon
@tereško I'm currently looking at Moonlight
Seems neat
Also, Graveyard Keeper which is a more humorous, darker version of Stardew Valley
game or tv series?
14:32
@tereško Game
By the way, do they usually just ask about the basics or are there some common but problematic stuff I should look into? (Keeping in mind, they said "very PHP focused interview")
there are popular questions, like: what do you do if an SQL query runs slow (the answer is "just look at EXPLAIN output and go from there")
@tereško I prefer "beat the DBA with a handy chair"
@MadaraUchiha in a smaller company there are no DBAs
the "php intern" tends to be a full-stack position
@tereško I will keep that in mind.
14:35
And so you name someone "DBA" and beat them with the chair
and the main estimate is: does the kid have a clue and likes programming
@2dsharp if you add EXPLAIN in the beginning of MySQL query, then instead of result you get the details about how the query was "handled"
that includes things like what indexes were used and what was the subsection of entries in each step
then there are the "what would you use MD5 or SHA1 for?" questions
if your answer contains "storing passwords" then you automatically fail :D
not sure ... all the other questions that I can thing of usually apply do mid-to-senior level of developers and not interns
@2dsharp is that a paid internship?
14:52
@mega6382 Yes.
@tereško definitely not saying that XD
@tereško They were looking for someone with a decent background in PHP, so I could expect some mid level developer questions as well, more so because they are a start up and need more devs
@2dsharp Well getting an internship shouldn't be that hard, but often enough, the recruiters have this terrible habit of asking such useless and meaningless questions, that have nothing to do with the job, just be ware of those.
it's india
they have a lot of options to choose from
@mega6382 Since it's a new start up which works on micro services, I assume they could fire with more practical questions.
@tereško True. :P
do you understand the difference between TCP and UDP?
some basic understanding of virtual machines might also be useful
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