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5:04 PM
I'm also bad at git ...
and versioning ...
 
@JoeWatkins If you break things reversibly, I'm there to repair it ;o)
 
Wes
PHP 7 - FIVE THINGS YOU NEED TO KNOW: 1. IT’S COMING THIS YEAR 2. IT’S STILL PHP 3. THINNEST LIGHTEST PHP YET 5. WE CAN’T COUNT
 
Anonymous
15
Q: A Post-Mortem on the Recent Developer Story Information Leak

Tim Post We'd first like to take a moment to thank everyone for their patience while we put this together. Your restraint was a very big help in us handling this incident with the degree of diligence that all of you deserve; thank you for waiting so patiently as we worked to resolve it. tl;dr: On 20...

 
Anonymous
@PeeHaa
 
I LOVE AGILE IT’S GREAT THE WAY YOU CAN DRAG AND DROP THINGS INTO PEOPLE’S QUEUES
 
5:12 PM
> 2. IT’S STILL PHP 3.
 
@littlepootis ^ that
 
wait... it's still php?
shit... when are they gonna make php something else? it's like they are just stuck on it or something
 
no
 
yes
 
Wes
5:16 PM
nope
WAT
 
phprust
 
is that like a tattoo or something that someone designed?
 
Wes
@kelunik is trying the tactic "maybe if he sees that i'm struggling with this he'll help me" :B
 
@Wes Great if it works. :D
 
5:26 PM
@bwoebi even if they have thousands of pools they wouldn't/shouldn't rely on the default settings of php as those would exhaust their resources..
 
@staabm How did I hint at that?
 
Guys I have just 1 simple question
I created a junction table
Why MySQL workbench is assigning primary keys to those columns in the junction table?
Shouldn't be they identifying columns?
 
@bwoebi any idea why the size of realpath cache is limited at all ?
 
I mean, 1 more rows can have the same value
 
@JoeWatkins unlimited might be bad with long-running scripts perhaps?!
 
5:29 PM
But as soon as I turn off those PK, the lines are converted back to dotted lines
Any idea why?
 
you cannot infinitely include files though, right ?
 
@JoeWatkins I guess it is limited as it can contain a lot of elements very fast (as each path will be split on "/" and each part of the path will get a separate entry)
 
yes but I don't see the harm in it being the size that is required for the current application
 
@JoeWatkins realpath cache isn't only included files though?
 
@JoeWatkins you mean a self growing structure without maximum?
@bwoebi rights.. its all files you open using file_exists() is_dir() etc
 
5:32 PM
yep… and when things run a really long time and you access e.g. temp files
it may fill up over time
It'd be a very slow memory leak
 
I don't see why it matters ... you can clear in the cases where you need too
 
Anyone? :/
 
@JoeWatkins clearstatcache() you mean?
you'd have to remember to run that once a day or such
 
the vast majority of the time you do not need too, what you need is a cache suitable for your particular application, and it just seems so arbitrary to put a number on it ... I think it should not be limited by default at all, it doesn't make sense to me ...
 
@JoeWatkins How big is the cache actually?
 
5:34 PM
right now 16kb
 
that should be enough for most things
 
by default, we are suggesting 4096k because that is what symfony suggests ... WP requires much less than that, most real world apps are probably going to require more ...
it's provably too small for today at 16kb
 
It's just a cache
 
but when it's full it doesn't clear, it costs I/O
(and stats)
 
@JoeWatkins uh, it doesn't evict the first elements from cache?!
 
5:35 PM
no
just stops filling
 
well, that's bad…
 
wtf
 
yeah thats the reason why I propose a bigger default
 
no gc using ttl either ... it's totally crap
 
5:37 PM
maybe we should just add a eviction strategy instead
LRU or something
actually this could also be the reason why processes get slower and slower as longer they run (apache restarts processes every x-thousand requests tho)
the bucket seem to expire
https://php-lxr.adamharvey.name/source/xref/master/Zend/zend_virtual_cwd.c#658
 
it only does gc on find
that's objectively wrong
@staabm yes, in the least effective way possible ...
 
@staabm yep… but as Joe says, only on find… it doesn't make place for actual new entries
 
a lot of userland code does manual eviction because of the cache filling up so quickly... seems like a lot of workarounds out there for a actual php-src problem :/
 
all of the code you have ever read is a workaround for a php-src problem :D
 
;-)
will see you later guys.
 
5:43 PM
lata
 
@JoeWatkins I'd appreciate a quick fix for this… (looking at you ;o))
 
@JayIsTooCommon \o/
 
@bwoebi we could do better than that ...
 
@JoeWatkins well, ideal would be a LRU cache
 
Wes
5:46 PM
this is how i waste my time
 
@bwoebi in shm
 
@JoeWatkins Not sure about this … it may break things when previous script changes something and next script wants to act on that
At least not in a micro version
 
yeah, I'm thinking in the future ... it would take a fair amount of work ...
 
@JoeWatkins Most of WP runs on shared hosting though
 
but when I think about hundreds of processes with 4m caches each ... this is not making any sense
 
5:50 PM
@staabm also, that must be unrelated … CWDG is per-run, not per-process
 
What are we talking about btw? :)
 
the terrible realpath cache built into php
 
ty
 
Wes
would you like that as logo joe? :B ^
for the php os thingy
 
@Joe at least for now a simple LRU cache would do
shm or such is further improvment which can sometime be built on top of it, but not necessary for now.
 
5:54 PM
it feels sub standard to me
 
The current way is outright bad
 
also, we need to make entries larger to do LRU, and we need call for time (or use request time, but that won't work for long running procs)
 
Anything substandard is much better…
 
@Wes <3 (yes, obviously)
 
@JoeWatkins a LRU cache can be simply done by removing from the HashTable and readding [at the end] … the ones to evict are then at the beginning
 
Wes
5:56 PM
it's more like a mascotte than a logo :B
 
@bwoebi is that LRU ?
you need to know when it was used to know what is the least recently used ...
 
@MrMesees yes the flag for siege, I'm currently tuning, but it's comparable to an entry level Java App
 
they are not inserted in order
 
@JoeWatkins PHP HashTables are ordered…
 
it's not a ht
it kinda is, but not a php one
 
5:57 PM
use a php ht instead
our php hts are fast enough by now
it's using a custom hash function and heap management
things our php hts do easily
 
@Danack yes the -b flag for siege, I'm currently tuning, but it's comparable to an entry level Java App, currently in sysctl.d/
 
it may amount to a bc break, if you have a value of 4096k today, you're going to get less entries for the same memory if we switch to a HashTable
 
@JoeWatkins that's not a BC break though
 
that'd be quite surprising, wouldn't it ?
not exactly, but it's a wtf moment ...
 
@JoeWatkins Also the path names won't be included in the cache size by design (zend_string)
 
6:02 PM
hmm
 
Isn't there some way for opcache to persist between CLI invocations by saving to files or something?
 
@JoeWatkins If your code relies on a very specific cache size, then there's something horribly wrong with your code, that's not a BC break.
 
yeah, opcache.file_cache takes tmp path usually @Levi
 
^ this
 
Thanks.
 
6:06 PM
@NikiC do some input please :)
 
Bleh, benchmarking is hard.
 
@LeviMorrison What are you benching? And how?
 
Effect of method inlining when able to load from cache (because when it isn't in cache it's easily 2x slower).
 
rather than switching to a hashtable, or anything to do with shm, what we might do is loop while the cache is full and just delete stuff that has expired on cache_add ... that may be the simplest thing to do for now ?
breaking out of that loop when the current entry fits
 
@Ekin did you push the latest changes of the user counter?
 
6:14 PM
and store position in globals for next gc loop
 
@PeeHaa Last time I pushed when I pinged you earlier
I was checking the PR
 
k. It's broken for me. Wondered whether I should fix it or there is unpushed stuff
 
What's broken?
There's a constant 5 I think btw
 
All of it :D
 
Huh, how o.O
 
6:16 PM
$('.online-users-count').html(json.connectedUsers); is being run regardless of whether it is a connectedUsers message or event message
 
zend_extension=opcache.so
opcache.enable_cli = 1
opcache.file_cache = /tmp/opcache
opcache.file_cache_only = 1
opcache.file_cache_consistency_checks = 1
^ That's a somewhat proper opcache config?
 
I have fixed that now, but the div is visibility: hidden
I can fix that too, just wanted to make sure I'm not looking at old code :-)
 
@Levi yes
 
Yeah I had not enough time to do it properly :/ go for it @PeeHaa
 
@LeviMorrison Does opcache.enable_cli automatically enable opcache.enable?
 
6:18 PM
kk
 
@kelunik ... dunno.
(I'm only using cli...)
I think opcache.enable defaults to 1 though.
 
@LeviMorrison nope
 
@PeeHaa That's not what the docs say.
 
Or at least it didn't do that
 
it doesn't default to 1, but it will enable in cli with enable_cli
 
6:21 PM
!!docs opcache
 
[ OPcache ] OPcache book
 
odd
 
doesn't matter, not used in cli
it really does default to 1 .. til ...
(not just according to docs, in code)
but is ignored in CLI, because in CLI it wants to be disabled by default ... so uses enable_cli switch only there
 
Yeah. Pretty sure it wasn't always like that. But now I'm not sure anymore
 
I seem to remember having to enable in normal sapis at one point too ... but can easily be wrong because memory ...
 
6:26 PM
Yeah same :P
 
@PeeHaa 8.13 :P
also coverage 3%
 
hehehe
 
... I can't seem to get different runtimes whether opcache is enabled or disabled, which seems really wrong.
 
according to history it's always been enabled ...
it is wrong
 
yes surely history is wrong
 
6:28 PM
I meant the timing for levis test there
 
:P
Have you ever opened a history book?
Nothing but wars and plagues ans whatnot
 
@LeviMorrison Well, run perf on it and only consider the samples inside execute_ex (if you have no includes)
 
did you build yourself ?
HAVE_OPCACHE_FILE_CACHE is defined in main/php_config.h ?
no --disable-opcache-file in config.nice ...
 
It's definitely enabled and I see .bin files in my file_cache directory.
 
okay then
you may be cursed ...
 
6:31 PM
I just want to test this really nice feature, sheesh!
 
it definitely does seem wrong to not measure any difference
 
oooooooh I see when it's all hidden @Ekin
race condition on the svg != null line
 
o+ is very fiddly ...
 
@NikiC Well I've been trying to get benchmarks but it seems to be as fast with opcache as it is without it. I've verified that opcache does work; it may just be that with all the variables in my case they do end up with the same runtime.
But I did check that many things did get inlined.
 
oh wait
revalidate_freq
it won't recompile when you change settings
you're running the same script over and over
delete the bin files
 
6:36 PM
I did try that already :|
 
then I got nothin
 
@LeviMorrison yeah, I wouldn't expect wonders. Inlining gives something like a 1% improvement on WP
At least in the current form it's not the magic optimization it is for C ^^
 
you should expect a difference between opcache and no opcache, right ?
 
Yeah, needs to cover more cases definitely.
 
@JoeWatkins maybe
 
6:40 PM
I've only ever run bench for this kind of test, there's definitely a difference there
try bench @Levi ?
@NikiC is inlining still WIP, or you will propose to merge as it is and work on it once merged ?
1% is still pretty good for real life app
 
@NikiC how much will it give on something like Aerys? And when removing the same file restriction?
 
which one?
- how many time ...
- how many times ...
 
latter
 
thx
 
<3 @Wes love the dark theme
 
Wes
6:48 PM
i did nothing apart suggesting few colors
 
Hello everyone!
 
Wes
i dislike it though :B will be white
 
...
 
Anyone have experience using Docker and GitLab CI?
 
BTW I think got the scrollbars problem again on some machines :P
Wiill have a look later
 
6:49 PM
Throw the machines away
 
@mbrzuchalski You know what else is slowing you? BRAKES, get rid of them.
 
@JoeWatkins github.com/async-interop/promise/pull/35#discussion_r94817901 … what exactly was your reasoning there?
 
The synonymous of cancelling ?
1. Take off
2. Set off
3. Put off
4. Call off
 
Wes
@PeeHaa *{overflow:hidden !fuckoff;}
 
6:52 PM
That point is coming closer and closer :P
 
@Wes illegal instruction !fuckoff encountered, ignoring.
 
:-)
 
Wes
@bwoebi it used to work in the past. !anything worked like !important
 
@JoeWatkins The restriction on the callable signature is not a callee restriction, but a caller restriction. Callees may put anything there as long as there is no runtime issue.
 
6:57 PM
@bwoebi Approximately nothing because of type hints, variadics, etc :D
 
But the Promise spec requires that callers only ever pass \Throwable|\Exception|null, thus…
@LeviMorrison I have no idea how typehints impact inlining … some typechecks may be elided perhaps?
 
there is no caller, there is only a spec ... it may make sense to document/prototype an implementation will only ever pass a particular type or set of types, but in a spec for interop, I don't see why would say anything other than it must be nullable
 
@bwoebi Currently it will not inline functions with types.
 
@JoeWatkins the caller is whoever implements the interface
 
There are debug and backtrace implications when those fail when inlined, so it hasn't been done.
 
6:59 PM
yes, but that's a different thing to the interop specification, isn't it ?
 
@JoeWatkins no?! … or in which way did you mean that?
 
it definitely is, that was a rhetorical question ...
 
@JoeWatkins In what way is that different here?
 
for interoperability, you don't need to specify that a caller (which doesn't exist) will do anything, you need to document what is required for interop, and that is only that the parameter is nullable ... if I want to implement the interface to cast exceptions to strings, I should be allowed to do that ... if you document in this specification that it must be the current set of types, I cannot do that ...
 
I wish I wasn't quite so busy at work. I'd love to work on doing inlining heuristics ^_^
 
7:03 PM
@JoeWatkins We require, for interop, that the caller does only ever pass one of these types
@JoeWatkins The callee may specify string … I'm not arguing about that.
@JoeWatkins The spec is - as said - restraining whoever implements the spec here. It doesn't put any restriction on the callee
 
I must be misunderstanding something
 
@JoeWatkins right - you are assuming that the passed callback must accept exactly these types
which it doesn't.
 
but that's exactly what you intend to specify
 
It's the implementation why must pass no other than these types
@JoeWatkins That's it - no.
 
so document that, but not as part of the prototype for the callback
 
7:07 PM
@JoeWatkins That's the correct place to document it though.
It's not a prototype of the callback
 
it would appear to be :s
 
it's a prototype of what the callback may be called with
 
@bwoebi github.com/amphp/loop/commit/… That was surprisingly easy.
The tests pass locally, but crash and burn on travis. :-(
 
@Trowski congrats
 
lol
it's clear to me now bob, but wasn't from reading the spec ... so maybe make these distinctions clear is a good idea ...
 
7:10 PM
Examining my codebase... if inlining could handle callable parameters that would do more wonders than any other single case. /cc @NikiC
 
@bwoebi Thanks. :-P
 
@Trowski so, it's stalling on PHP 5 and running out of memory on PHP 7…
 
Yay am on @Jeeves tweet:)
 
@brzuchal Jeeves never gives me answers.
 
I think the purpose of travis is to make sure that somewhere there is an environment that will crash perfectly reasonable tests ...
 
7:11 PM
@JoeWatkins that's just docblock semantics though
@JoeWatkins right :-P
 
@bwoebi Yeah, I'll have to dig into it more.
 
@brzuchal object type hint ?
 
@Wes now that'd make a good logo
 
Would it make sense to try to expose an explicit inline? :X
 
Wes
7:17 PM
too complex for a logo
 
@bwoebi Locally with PHP 5.6, all the tests pass except the execution order test (which fails for every impl with timers getting out of order).
Running without xdebug fixes that issue.
 
Well... array would come close too.
 
@Trowski could you please try whether making the test take a bit longer fixes the xdebug fails
 
Ugh… so I open Test.php and realize I have a couple tests commented out… well that explains at least one thing. :-P
 
lol
 
7:21 PM
Leftover from when I was debugging the uv loop.
 
@JoeWatkins waiting for @Danack help on about voting options
 
I swear I can never find obvious coding issues until I ask someone else about them so I can be thoroughly embarrassed instead of being able to hide my own shame.
 
@Wes :-)
 
Wes
i sometimes stare at code for hours and i fail to notice very obvious problems
 
7:26 PM
Like a missing semicolon
 
@Trowski hehe
 
@Wes This = my life.
 
@Trowski We are all guilty of that…
 
@MrMesees And what, pray tell, leads you from that observation to a belief that it is $_GET or FILES that is the cause of the slower processing rate?
 
Wes
@Trowski i sometimes continue for days... till a monumental avalanche of shame hits me...
 
7:30 PM
btw
> -b, --benchmark
BENCHMARK, runs the test with NO DELAY for throughput benchmarking. By default each simulated user is invoked with at least a one second delay. This option removes that delay. It is not recommended that you use this option while load testing.
 
Wes
@NikiC in which way is the immediately invoked closure called this way function(){}() ambiguous? I mean, why do we need the parens? (function(){})()?
 
sup bbz
 
o/
 
@Trowski that's called a rubber duck
 
Wes
i was wondering this the other day... dunno why parens are required...
 
7:34 PM
@Farkie Ah, didn't realize there was a name for that technique.
 
In software engineering, rubber duck debugging or rubber ducking is a method of debugging code. The name is a reference to a story in the book The Pragmatic Programmer in which a programmer would carry around a rubber duck and debug their code by forcing themselves to explain it, line-by-line, to the duck. Many other terms exist for this technique, often involving different inanimate objects. Many programmers have had the experience of explaining a programming problem to someone else, possibly even to someone who knows nothing about programming, and then hitting upon the solution in the process...
 
evenin
 
I realize that's what's happening… but it never makes me feel better about it when it was such an obvious problem. :-D
 
go buy a rubber duck
and explain the problem to the duck
 
I actually have a rubber duck next to my desk
 
7:35 PM
me too
 
I think I'll do that.
 
and a few elephpants
 
gargoyles here
 
Ooo, I do have elephpants, I'll just use one of them.
 
won't work w/o a rubber ducky
 
7:36 PM
Ah, you've tried?
 
yeah...
I know how to speak rubber ducky...
 
Wes
i had a photo of a html room member as rubber duck (cc @rlemon) i should make a @peehaa action figure now
 
do it
 
It'd be slumped against a bar somewhere, though
 
I don't know how to speak elephant, what do you think I am, huh? crazy?
 
7:37 PM
@Wes worst action figure ever
 
amirite, @PeeHaa?
 
@Farkie :D
 
@Wes with the bobble head and all?
 
I've been at my new job for ~3 weeks now, is it acceptable to have an elephpant on my desk now?
 
Not just acceptable, but expected
 
7:39 PM
I'll see if I can find it
 
Wes
the one of the html room member was great :B wonder what happened to him... @Purify
 
I have like 5, but got knows where. Maybe I left them at magma
 
I read about Jigsaw module system openjdk.java.net/projects/jigsaw/spec/sotms and thinking to for idea of forming some inspired by Jigsaw module syntax for PHP which won't break any BC if could cover package private and module dependensies relations and module autoload feature in PHP.
 
I should get a elephpant
 
How's the job btw @Farkie?
 
7:40 PM
Going well :)
 
Good \o/
 
@Trucy I'm sure we could get you a rainbow one if you want
 
@Farkie \o/ me wants
 
I'll summon the man with the plan
"So they'll be available for straight sale.... I'll be setting up paypal at some point this month (when I get round to it)"
 
yay
 
7:50 PM
and they will come out in April from the kickstarter
now, where's my elephpants
 
don't do the elephants
 

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