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Wes
Wes
19:01
\o
I feel like I have to either try, myself, to get PHP to adopt a code of conduct, or stop contributing. And I know which of those is easier.
Good luck, Andrea. Any project needs a code of conduct, but I'm sure I don't have to explain the headaches of trying to get an existing project to adopt one without being unilaterally forced to.
Wes
Wes
why is code of conduct so important? and why is so important to not have it? why do we need "laws" and/or "punishments" to behave like civil persons
@Wes because sometimes people don't and you want to be able to do something about it
I mean, I wish you could just tell people to be nice, but it doesn't always work
part of the problem is often action is too little, too late
@Wes Because people get detached when the speak to other people over a screen
And they behave nastily.
19:09
@MadaraUchiha people can get detached because of ideology and such as well
Wes
Wes
yeah i was being rhetorical guys :P
@Andrea Yeah, but one wouldn't speak as dismissively or as obnoxiously IRL as they would over a mailing list.
@MadaraUchiha often yeah
the Internet Asshole Theory
@Andrea Looks like Derick beat you to it.
19:11
@jbafford What a code of conduct? Or leaving?
(re-proposing the Code of Conduct)
@jbafford Oh. Hmm. checks mailing list
I was kinda rooting for leaeving though
CoC = vote seriatim, user complaint thresholds that when reached ban the user for an interval. Much easier than trying to establish "rules" for today or worse, tomorrow.
@MadaraUchiha it's easier and probably safer...
19:13
Wish it were as easy as complaining about harassment eventually leads to a ban... Often the people who are doing the harassing are also engaging in active smear campaigns against those who speak up against the harassment, and are first to abuse auto-ban tools.
@Ghedipunk yeah :/
that's one of the problems with voting for a CoC enforcement group
popular older people are not necessarily the best suited to running it
or for that matter newer people
Yep, it's not about popularity, because whoever is on that enforcement group is going to become very unpopular with at least a few people very quickly. People who like popularity are going to take their own social standings into account.
The community should police itself.
@Andrea This is why I suggested (and keep suggesting) to open up the discussions.
Move away from a mailing list to something more user friendly.
"We want users who make the minimal effort to register to a mailing list" is bullshit
Discussions should be open and public
Especially with a language with as high a profile as PHP
And it doesn't matter how good you are with language design or C engine building or algorithm optimization, the collective knowledge of 10, 20, 50 people does not compare to the collective knowledge of The Internet™.
None of us is as stupid as all of us.
19:21
@MadaraUchiha I'd love it if Why Can't We Have Nice Things let you post directly to the mailing list on it
because it already collects ALL the RFC stuff together, and it displays mailing list threads properly!
If the Internet has reinforced two of my biases, it's that cats are cute, and easy access to memetic content reinforces biases.
@Ghedipunk oh yeah
@Andrea The PHP internals needs to get their shit together.
I'm not sure they're seeing it the way I do from the outside
The mailing list discussions are open and public. And I don't think that having a minimal hurdle to posting to the mailing list is a bad thing.
But PHP is dying. PHP 7 bought it more time
19:22
PHP is dying?
But PHP has never been the most glamorous language, and what glamour it has is declining
@jbafford it can be good and bad
@jbafford Only it's not minimal, not really.
the good is that it means the mailing list isn't swamped with no-effort +1 posts like any project using GitHub Issues is
@MadaraUchiha "subscribe to mailing list" isn't minimal?
19:23
the bad is that it's very unfamiliar for a lot of people and makes it difficult to contribute
PHP's main draw is how easy it is to get running and get a computer to spit out some useless drivel to a web page. No other languages come close to matching PHP in those respects, so PHP is on a solid foundation.
basically just because it's not on the web
@jbafford No, because to it's hard to follow discussions, hard to know what you're responding to, hard to follow links to other discussions
the web is the most accessible part of the internet
It's incredibly clumsy and hard to use, especially compared to all those fancy alternatives you have out there.
19:24
I may just be an old fogey here, but, The Web is not the end-all be-all of The Internet.
Wes
Wes
subscribing to the mailing list is easy. reading it is hard
@MadaraUchiha threaded email makes things clear, but many modern clients lack it
@jbafford oh I know
the best way to use the mailing list is actually with a Usenet client. think about that.
Wes
Wes
would be great if discussions moved to a forum or github issues
that's quite arcane knowledge for most people
There is a minimum level of technical capability you need to have to actually be constructive in an internals discussion.
19:25
I think few people even know that news.php.net is not just a web interface
I don't mean this as policy; I mean that as a practical statement.
@jbafford Technical capability isn't really the issue
@jbafford I'm plenty technically capable.
I'm not willing to waste my time learning how the clumsy communication system works.
it's more a willingness to learn and an understanding of PHP as it actually is
@MadaraUchiha And I'm not willing to use a forum system.
19:26
@jbafford Why not?
For exactly the same reasons as you don't want to use email.
Assuming it's not a crappy one
@jbafford I don't want to use email because you can't have a normal threaded view without specialized tools.
You can't link to other threads without specialized tools.
You can't really ping others for specific opinions without specialized tools.
@PeeHaa Always prefer code that easily allows type inference for static analysis (read: PHP Storm), plus yay microoptimisation. Feel free to cherry-pick that commit out though if you don't like that style... but if you prefer get_class() then at least use ::class...
The entire POINT of a mailing list is that all you need is a mail client
or gmail
19:27
Now I need to download some News protocol client I've never heard off?
Please
I mean I know you like to think that using get_class() makes your code classier but it doesn't.
3
Wes
Wes
lol
(Back from the tangent for a second, I just want to add before things get too far from the topic of a CoC:) I think that for PHP to implement a CoC, it'll have to take some legal pressure. Lawyers saying "if you don't kick harassers out of your community, X, Y, and Z are the consequences."... Unfortunately, the consequences are simply that more people will be harassed and there's not much that can be stuck on individual stakeholders of the PHP community.
@jbafford I used GMail (before switching to inbox)
How does GMail help you exactly?
With any of what I said?
I may be "doing it wrong", but, I don't understand what's so hard about an email client with threading. Maybe I'm biased? Mail.app has had threading support for years (though I turn it off because I don't really like threaded messages).
19:29
Not to mention, a decent enough forum software augments a mailing list rather than replace it.
and I know gmail has it
and if you want to ping someone for specific opinions... you just email them. (Or, did you mean, a sub-segment of the whole group? I'll agree, that might work better in a forum.)
@jbafford Last I've used it, GMail did not have a threaded email view.
Yeah, that's just what PHP needs more of: Lawyers
if(!$legal) new \Legal\Mess($legal);
@MadaraUchiha when was that?
@jbafford About a year ago, before inbox was introduced.
19:31
inbox?
Google Inbox?
But really, that's not the point, you can't rely on something some clients provide and others do not.
yes, don't know what that is.
Some are constrained to Outlook
but anyway, I'm looking at a message thread in gmail right now
@MadaraUchiha Not to mention that there's no way to verify who actually sent an email...
19:32
@jbafford Screenshot?
Wes
Wes
reading newsletter with gmail is impossible even today @MadaraUchiha it is way too confusing and not even minimally comfortable
sure there is the threaded view, but it's far from being usable
@MadaraUchiha can't; work email.
Wes
Wes
feels like you are browsing a guestbook from 1991 internet
way back when on an old cms project we had total integration of nntp, email, and forum such that posting to one posted to all - people could pick whichever interface they preferred in order to participate... i've never quite seen it mimicked since
@PaulCrovella And I don't understand why.
GitHub does that by the way
Wes
Wes
19:34
@jbafford devtools add style *{-webkit-filter:blur(20px);}
@Wes You're just saying that because of the autoplaying MIDI
@Machavity I agree, having a legal mess is terrible... But I know that the community isn't going to voluntarily adopt a code of conduct. No community would without a way to stop the bikeshedding and keep the harassers out of the policy making process... The question is, which is better, no CoC, or lawyers? (I honestly don't know.)
They're the only ones I've seen outside of crappy helpdesk software
Let me ask you this @jbafford
And I'm speaking from experience here, because I've been to that movie
I'm an eager new contributor, who just found out about the PHP mailing list and is willing to learn and contribute.
Then I find out that I need to navigate through the bowels of php.net to even get to the mailing list instructions (which are, last I checked, unclear and all over the place)
Then I need to register with the bot, simple enough
Then I need to start following what's going on
Then when I try and make a suggestion, it's almost always instantly shut down
By 5 different people
Who disagree with one another about how my suggestion should be shut down.
And I can't tell who's arguing with whom
Now tell me, why would I want to spend any more of my time attempting to contribute to that?
That's not a shitty software problem. That's a shitty people problem.
Do you want contributors? Or do you want to enforce the self-importance feelings of certain current contributors?
@jbafford It's also a shitty software problem.
It adds to it all.
19:38
And you're absolutely right: you shouldn't want to spend time contributing to that.
And while I can't really change people, I can change software, it's what I do for a living.
Now I don't use PHP, I don't care, really. I'm making an observation as an outsider.
Changing to a forum is not going to magically make people be less shitty to each other.
I've being in a situation when i was complete noob in php internals, so I can say from my experience that for entry level mailing list is not a must at all
i used irc and google
forgot what mail, but there was one which said almost clearly that at least some of internals did actually not want newcomers
@DaveRandom hehe
19:39
google gave php internals book + lxr.php.net
And I've made this suggestion to the PHP internals because I was asked to do so by people from this room telling me they'd support my proposal once I post it there
Neh. Just wondering about reasoning
like one week ago
+ github
And.... nothing.
19:40
@FélixGagnon-Grenier It was François' question, and my responses to build on his point, and then the shitty responses to my emails that followed.
that's the one
So, I can complain about it all I want here, in hopes PHP will be a better language (and a better open source project)
so internals mailing should not be a hard point to get to if one need that
But if it doesn't, you guys are those ones taking the blow, not me.
But this is fundamentally a people problem, and you can't fix a people problem with software.
19:41
@jbafford You start where you can, and you pick your fights.
And adding fresh perspective is a good thing.
And the more new core contributors you get, the easier it is to kick or fix the shittier ones.
the flip side, if you want to see how bad having no barrier to entry can be, is the absolute crap reddit turns any discussion into (pick your favorite rfc/internals post there and dig in)
Not if the old core contributors keep chasing the new ones away by being assholes.
maybe that's why some do not want new contributors?
@FélixGagnon-Grenier That's also fine.
So don't open the mailing list to new subscribers, and that's it.
There's the website where people can read alllllllll communications just fine.
But then they can't give lip service to wanting new blood.
19:43
meh. there would be leaks all the same
as in, friends from people would still get the mails, and rant about it, and even more: rant on why they can't properly rant because no mailing list
@FélixGagnon-Grenier Who cares, no mailing list.
*yawn*
You call yourself an open source project? Behave like one.
And yes, a code of conduct is important here.
But also, solid and easy communication.
Behave like an open source project? Fine, fork the code, don't use the trademarks, and if your version becomes more popular than the trunk, you can gatekeep.
Seriously is the political bullshit spreading in to here too, or is the current chat a temporary thing?
19:45
Hopefully temporary... Lots of people ranting...
I'm not necessarily advocating this, yet, but, forking the project under better leadership is also an option. But that would probably kill php outright if it got critical mass, because then you'd have PHP, can't-call-itself-PHP, and HHVM/Hack all competing for the same people.
@salathe Nah, I'm done.
I, for one, welcome our new code of Parse error: syntax error, unexpected 'conduct' (T_STRING)
3
Like I said, do what you want, it's your community at the bottom line.
@jbafford Right
And I should add, my earlier "behave like an open source project" is meant to be ironic, it's not how I actually feel an open source project should act, it's how I see far too many ones with huge egos act.
19:46
Internals ain't my community.
@salathe PHP is vOv
I think that the way internals is being conducted affects PHP as a whole.
huh?
PHP is more like PvP
!!urban vOv
[ vOv ] Shrugging shoulders emote; used in all forms, whether ironically or seriously, in Internet chat. The v's are the arms bent at the elbows, and the O is the head.
19:48
Oh you were saying PHP is my community, I guess so in a tiny, insignificant sort of way.
Wes
Wes
wOw @Jeeves works!
Thanks, Jeeves.
!!urban please-be-undefined
whatchoo talkin bout willis
Wes
Wes
19:49
was expecting him to answer "my pleasure, milord"
hey thanks for making me overcome my fears and learn about yield() @PeeHaa. It's actually quite understandable.
20:08
@PeeHaa ln -s /PeeHaa/face ~/arse
7
Basically
It was basically just a reflex
wat indeed
casually sniffing a line while making your 1k plate
wat's the problem :p
Getting caught om camera doing it might be a problem :P
oh, I just get an overlay that won't close in a language i can't read :(
20:32
Just click the green thing
Or click the blue thing which removes cookiewalls
a chef was joking around with some flour... what's the big deal
Is there a list of "things" that should be done when bootstrapping an application? An example of what I'm talking about is setting error_reporting(-1), or calling set_error_handler($toException)?
Buffering, ini_*-stuff, etc.?
What is buffering ini stuff?
And yeah the first I do at that point (using an settings file based on my environemnt)
ob_start, ini_set('something', 'to something') -- basically "best practice" configuration/environment to setup.
Why would you ob start @ bootstrapping phase?
20:35
I'm just wondering if there's a list of sorts; things that should be included in most cases, and environment-specific (production, staging, development, etc.) cases
@PeeHaa I've seen it done, for the sake of swallowing extraneous output.
Not that it's a good thing; extraneous = bad.
But is there a shopping list for this stuff? Blogged somewhere?
Bootstrapping is probably too wide a term: optimizing the application environment.
I mostly just setup settings, setup the wiring (/di) and fire the actual application
Okay, I'm talking before DI/routing.
If it's a webapp I also setup the routes
Just environment config.
error_reporting(-1);
set_error_handler(function($level, $message, $filename, $line) {
    new ErrorException($message, 0, $level, $filename, $line);
});
define('DIR_BIN', realpath(sprintf('%s/bin', __DIR__)));
define('DIR_ETC', realpath(sprintf('%s/etc', __DIR__)));
define('DIR_LIB', realpath(sprintf('%s/lib', __DIR__)));
define('DIR_SRC', realpath(sprintf('%s/src', __DIR__)));
define('DIR_TMP', realpath(sprintf('%s/tmp', __DIR__)));
define('DIR_VAR', realpath(sprintf('%s/var', __DIR__)));
require_once realpath(sprintf('%s/autoload.php', DIR_LIB));
^^ I have that sitting in a file that gets used unaltered across things.
Not a big fan of constants all over my applications
20:39
Likewise, which is why they're only defined there ;-)
Yeah but used by everything and your mother
Meh, I'm okay with that.
Wes
Wes
ini_set no. use php.ini and assert() to check configuration (and disable assertions when in prod). i dislike error handlers that convert old style errors to exceptions because may break other code that instead just ignores warning
Can't always php.ini.
php.ini?
20:40
.htaccess in the web context maybe.
> Can't always .htaccess
Wes
Wes
.user.ini
Can't always escape the docroot.
Wes
Wes
realpath is an awesome performance killer. use __DIR__
20:42
The only ini setting I do is error reporting and setting the TZ to UTC to be sure
^^ TZ, this is what I'm talking about.
Anything else like that (if we're done with tangentially dissecting my constants and calls to realpath?)
What environment I am on production or not
Which determines whether I need to use compiled css/js/routes or not
Wes
Wes
constants are global state though :B
@Wes You tokking to me?
FTR, I'm okay with immutable global state.
Wes
Wes
20:45
just being randomly annoying
The latter, yes ;-)
Wes
Wes
:P
Why does
@Wes I agree though :)
Wes
Wes
i was serious about realpath though. it's way heavier than you might think
20:48
Why does echo '1' . (print '2') + 3;
outputs 214
Because it's string not a number
Wes
Wes
sounds like a homework question
@cnngraphics The easiest way to determine this is to review the generated opcodes:
Finding entry points
Branch analysis from position: 0
Jump found. Position 1 = -2
filename:       /in/gtZ7d
function name:
number of ops:  3
compiled vars:  none
line     #* E I O op                           fetch          ext  return  operands
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   3     0  E >   MAGIC
         1        MOAR MAGIC
        42      > MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGIIIIIC
Hehehhe
Wes
Wes
lol
20:50
xD
Sorry, had to.
@cnngraphics Take a look what echo print '2'; does. It print a number and because print Returns 1, always.
Wes
Wes
i always return 1, because i can #php
21:06
isn't it that type of question that was discussed numerous times over the past 10 years?
$a = [
    'value' => false,
];
var_dump($renderer->render('{$value}', $a));
// string(0) ""
would you be surprised if a templating engine renders a false value as a empty string?
renderer?
yeah. an object that renders values in a string
What's that object?
Wes
Wes
@FélixGagnon-Grenier arent we all used to that? :B
21:16
not sure :p
@VeeeneX oh.. just a test template rendering engine. Not very good or performant.
"I hate everything" youtube channel has been was nuked
@tereško Happy Birthdaaaay :D
21:27
thanks
not that @tereško ?
nsfw
it's back up (it's about 20h old news and the channel has been reinstated since then)
but I was kinda deep in mix of whiskey, watching buffy and playing civ5
hmmm... buffy.
yeah, it's not as fun as it was 10 years ago
well. 10 years ago I watched it because the girls, I'd probably do the same now
a bit less impressed to be sure though
heavily modded civ5 or basic extensions?
21:33
basic
@FélixGagnon-Grenier well .. that's why I watched "Vampire Diaries" not so long ago
times a changin'
I play beyond earth more now, but sometimes nostalgia kicks in and I get back there
naah, I'm just stuck on linux for now
the options are a bit more limited
I'm actually surprised you can play anything. last time I used some linux, gaming was hard. steam does all the work don't they?
there are 155 games in my steam lib, 66 of those are compatible with linux
the major issue is that I also have a 21:9 screen and an AMD video card
hmmm... that is some widescreen..
21:37
which means that of those 66 games about half are bugged
yeah, it's a 3440x1440
lol. I'm on 1440x900
my screen would litterally fit more than three times in yours
yeah
well, I paid 700+ euro for that thing
it was a good investment, sure ... but most of people are not even willing to pay that for the entire PC
21:41
meh
IMHO, multi-monitor setups will be painful until they find a way to get rid of bezels
the bottom line is this: linux + amd + 21:9 = issues
:p
hey I thought of you @teresko watching this (sfw)
not sure why. not even sure if there's snow in latvia
there is
quite a lot of it actually
also I am not so curly
@NorthbornDesign @VeeeneX Wow! Thank you guys! @zaq178miami have patience with newbies ;-)
22:06
allofmywut?
Night folks.
yay, this series has started:
this will be fun :D
(and, yes they have a different channel for bible, which is already has like 90-ish parts)
I wonder if they'll keep using Morgan Freeman.
... probably
Wouldn't be the same without it.
it's actually a badass boast
- what's your most well known role as an actor
- I guess: the god
it up there with being the iconic face for "ironman"
22:16
@NorthbornDesign you still shouldn't use them - if you define them as types (aka objects in PHP) you just don't need them - github.com/Danack/Blog/blob/master/src/…
22:30
@NorthbornDesign what tool are you using for finding
@NorthbornDesign what tool are you using for finding

Finding entry points
Branch analysis from position: 0
Jump found. Position 1 = -2
filename: /in/gtZ7d
function name:
number of ops: 3
compiled vars: none
line #* E I O op fetch ext return operands
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 0 E > MAGIC
1 MOAR MAGIC
42 > MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGIIIIIC
a very developed sense of wit
23:23
Phew, I've been busy.
It's kind of weird not being here regularly.
Wes
Wes
@LeviMorrison \o

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