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14:00
We could take @JoeWatkins's idea, and either serialize or clone across threads (unless a specific interface is implemented, at which point we automatically synchronize between those threads)
or we could just make object access (or any by-reference access) automatically synchronized... And let you implement "Threadable" for classes which don't need to be synchronized...
@ircmaxell So no volatile data between threads? /me misses most of the context, so is sorry if question is stupidish
@Leri that's my question.
otherwise you get potential corruption issues.
user895378
TBH I'm pretty useless in a discussion about how to handle threading. I've spent the last two years doing nothing but non-blocking things :/
Python and Ruby solve this issue by using a global interpreter lock, to prevent threads from stopming on each other
I've seen people complaining about global interpreter lock.
14:09
in general it's not a problem, but it's something I'd like to try to avoid if possible...
@rdlowrey Well... there's an interesting question there.
can we "detect" at an engine level a blocking call?
because if we can, then we could make blocking code into non-blocking code auto-magically
@ircmaxell The GIL is widely criticized in Python. So far nobody has been able to remove it without a severe hit to single-threaded apps which is the primary mode of execution, so they are not willing to degrade the performance there.
phew... sorry, since i missed the context, but it sounds like voodoo here... what are you trying to do?
(As of roughly 1 year ago; haven't looked more recently than that)
user895378
Well I'm not sure how to "detect" it unless we force extensions/libraries to implement some interface to declare their capabilities.
@LeviMorrison Well, I'm curious if that's because of a design choice in python in general, or if it's more fundamental than that
@rdlowrey Sure, we could add a C API which would -under the hood- give the engine a means to get a callback for continuation...
so calling mysql_connect() on the surface would look the same, but if you ran it from an async context, it would be executed async...
@seong voodoo is precisely what we're trying to do ;-)
14:12
wasn't php designed as a shared-nothing stateless env?
There is a Python impl that does this when it detects that it is in parallel mode.
@ircmaxell exactly xD sound like it
@ircmaxell well, continue then ;)
HTTP 2.0... Hoooo boy.
Almost everything on the web is built around HTTP/1.1
(web != internet)
user895378
Well ... I suppose we'd potentially be able to detect the "blockability" of anything that runs through the internal streams API. We could determine what type of stream it was and then react accordingly.
@seong yup. And that can still happen if you choose
@rdlowrey even if it wasn't a stream, yup
14:15
@rdlowrey php is full of magic and that would add even more, would not it?
user895378
Well this would all be hidden from the user
Would http 2.0 still use the http:// prefix, just
GET / HTTP/2.0
HOST www.google.com
-unless the very structure of GET requests is changed -
@rdlowrey Cool but what should I do if I need blocking call then? For example, I have perfectly valid reason to block until I receive something.
@AustinBurk the very structure changes
@AustinBurk It uses a binary transfer format. Still uses http schema though.
14:17
@rdlowrey which would be my goal... Perhaps give the ability to provide inteligent workers via "trusted interfaces" or what not, but...
user895378
@Leri You have to build in accommodations for that. I'm not saying everything must be non-blocking and nothing else.
@LeviMorrison 1. Wat 2. Good
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@AustinBurk no, you wouldn't do that.
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h2 uses the existing http upgrade mechanism
user895378
So you would initiate a connection like this ...
14:18
HTTP 2.0 is the next planned version of the HTTP network protocol used by the World Wide Web. It is based on SPDY. HTTP 2.0 is being developed by the Hypertext Transfer Protocol Bis (httpbis) working group of the IETF. HTTP 2.0 would be the first new version of the HTTP protocol since HTTP 1.1 was described by RFC 2616 in 1999. Background of HTTP 2.0 HTTP 2.0 provides an optimized transport for HTTP semantics. While still supporting all the core features of HTTP 1.1, HTTP 2.0 strives to be more efficient in several ways. It is not just between HTTP 1.1 and HTTP 2.0 that users will have t...
one of the biggest mistakes made in recent years as far as protocols go
@ircmaxell Reading it already, thanks
@ircmaxell What's your criticism of it?
user895378
GET / HTTP/1.1
Connection: Upgrade, h2
Upgrade: h2
user895378
(or something ^ that's not exact, just an example)
I wouldn't abuse the runtime... you have a huge technology stack around php anyways. why not use the tools, design smart services and on top of that benefit from the shared-nothing architecture of php?
14:19
@LeviMorrison violates the OSI model
user895378
The server then responds with a 101 Switching Protocols and from there both parties communicate over the h2 protocol.
@ircmaxell Eh, I'm not sure how pertinent that really is. I'm not really qualified to speak there.
@LeviMorrison it acts at layers 5, 6 and 7. Where HTTP was 7 only
I'm guessing they are doing what programmers sometimes do for performance: reach across boundaries ^^
@rdlowrey So it keeps the connection open to reduce connection time? What about the Slowloris effect?
14:20
@LeviMorrison you could have solved the same problem implementing another session-layer protocol which HTTP/1.1 tunneled over in the same way
user895378
@AustinBurk It's not about reducing connection time
Slowloris is a piece of software written by Robert "RSnake" Hansen which allows a single machine to take down another machine's web server with minimal bandwidth and side effects on unrelated services and ports. Slowloris tries to keep many connections to the target web server open and hold them open as long as possible. It accomplishes this by opening connections to the target web server and sending a partial request. Periodically, it will send subsequent HTTP headers, adding to—but never completing—the request. Affected servers will keep these connections open, filling their maximum co...
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h2 allows you to multiplex many requests/responses over the same connection at the same time instead of one request at a time.
user895378
So you'd never need more than one TCP connection between parties.
bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs
EVERYWHERE bugs.
14:22
1 message moved to bin
@rdlowrey Got your point. Anyway, I [still] think it should be very clear what goes async and where to await that async call in the userland and some auto-magic detection of blocking calls seems to be against this. :)
@Leri why do you say that?
@rdlowrey I like manually issuing http requests with putty sometimes
@AustinBurk With Putty? You are nuts.
user895378
@AustinBurk there's a lot of human utility in a text-based protocol. But there's a lot of performance in a binary protocol.
user895378
14:23
telnet 127.0.0.1 80

GET / HTTP/1.0
@LeviMorrison I know, and I enjoy it.
Hey guys, feeling stupid here.. $_GET['category'] == 'fashion';
?category=fashion%20&%20beauty
user895378
^ Can't do that with h2
@ircmaxell Why does auto-magic detection makes it less clear when async call is made or why userland should control async calls?
@rdlowrey :'(
14:23
@rdlowrey I think the big downside, is that to make a HTTP/1.1 compliant client, you'd need maybe 100 lines of code. To make a HTTP/2 compliant client, you'd need several thousand...
@Leri the call is explicitly dispatched as async SOMEWHERE in the stack frame
Oops, gotta go! I wish you all a pleasant day.
Bye
user895378
Well, the only way you can make an HTTP/1.1 compliant client in 100 lines is if you only use HTTP/1.0 ;)
user895378
1.1 is a mess
Let's say there are two events registered to a certain event in a PHP application, the event gets triggered and the listener throws an exception, is it regarded as ok to set an object in the exception as well as the message so that the place where the event was triggered I can then retrieve that object in the thrown exception?
user895378
@AustinBurk later
14:25
well, from what I saw, it's not like 2.x was meant to make life easier for server-side components
neither for clients only, heh
@rdlowrey it's not that bad at all
@Ocramius right, but both sides now are fubar
@ircmaxell Header compression alone is a significant amount of work.
@LeviMorrison in 1.1?
user895378
99% HTTP/1.1-compliance is not bad. Achieving the last 1% is frought with ridiculousness.
No, header compression is a significant feature of HTTP 2.0
14:26
ah yes
user895378
1.1 is easy to implement if you don't care about performance.
can any of the c savvy folks tell me how the LimitIterator skips to the defined offset when passed a Generator?
@Gordon by repeatedly calling next offset times
user895378
Because it (HTTP/1.1) has so many arbitrary text-based rules (to make it human readable/understandable) it's a painstaking process to accommodate all of them and maximize performance.
@ircmaxell ok, so it's not creating an array copy or something. good. thanks.
14:27
@Gordon Same way it is done with any other iterator, really.
@Gordon nope
> Please turn off browser zoom for Squify.
Really?
user895378
@LeviMorrison Best-viewed with IE4+
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Powered by Geocities.
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Powered by Netscape Composer.
14:29
Hmm guys is there a way to deduct 1 row from an associative array?
user895378
Please set your screen resolution to 800x600 for the optimum viewing experience.
@ircmaxell /me keeps silent unless I see implementation or example(s) If auto-magic detection won't introduce even more debugging hell, I have nothing against it...
user895378
@David generators to the rescue
@DavidH You mean remove one row? Which row? First? Last? Any?
@Leri someone would still need to dispatch a method as async for any of this to be triggered
14:30
@LeviMorrison Yea from the echoe'd results the first one
but your library, which isn't built async, could be called async because the user initiated an async request at one point further up the stack...
@rdlowrey that's all fun and games until you have to present on a crappy projector :(
@DavidH Look up array_shift.
@LeviMorrison Will do, thanks!
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user895378
14:33
@CarrieKendall ^^ paging my entire high school experience
@rdlowrey Would they work for this: For example let's say in the application the route has just been verified to be a real existing route, the event dispatcher dispatches the event and we have a listener which is going to authorise the user for this route, the listener finds out this user is not allowed to go to this route so I throw some AccessDeniedException("Something", new Route(......)) so then back where the event was dispatched I can catch the exception and also get the new route the
user895378
@David you have to architect your application correctly.
route the user is supposed to go to from the exception. Would generators work better for this?
@David Unauthorized access isn't really an exception, is it?
user895378
function() {
    try {
        $result = (yield doSomethingAsync());
    } catch (Exception $e) {
        // async error handling is easy because Generator::throw()
    }
}
14:34
@rdlowrey What exactly do you mean?
@LeviMorrison It's not unfortunately
user895378
Also that:
user895378
45 secs ago, by Levi Morrison
@David Unauthorized access isn't really an exception, is it?
user895378
Don't abuse exceptions.
We built some helpers on top of our auth system a couple years ago that threw exceptions on auth errors.
Was really dumb.
Fortunately they weren't too hard to fix in this instance.
@ircmaxell So if user will breaks my lib it would sound like not my problem(?) Seriously, won't that introduce some unexpected bugs/behaviors for people who use old libraries or even worse extensions that are not meant for async calls, but the end user calls them asynchronously? I really don't have answer on this question but that definitely should be taken into count, imho.
user895378
14:36
Throwing exceptions when you could gracefully recover serves no purpose but to make your application brittle ...
user895378
I blame the PHP web SAPI for this ... in that environment a fatal uncaught exception doesn't matter because the process is going to die after the response anyway
user895378
There's an entire generation of PHP devs who play fast and loose with exceptions because ... well ... it just doesn't matter in the web SAPI environment.
@rdlowrey I only have a few exceptions I was unsure about throwing an exception for access being denied myself
@rdlowrey So I have my front controller, the router routes the URI, the dispatcher verifies the route exists, and now I want to authorise the user for this route since I know it is a valid route, how do I do this while making front controller flexible and not tighly stuck to authorising people one way all the time
Am I going down the right road of events
Okay, found my first major design complaint of Hack. This was a horrible, horrible idea: docs.hhvm.com/manual/en/hack.collections.phpbuiltins.php
user895378
The front controller has no business validating the authorization status of a user.
user895378
14:39
The front controller's purpose is to route the request to the appropriate handling code.
user895378
That handling code is then responsible for generating the relevant response given the request environment.
@rdlowrey I read in PoEAA he said do authorisation in there and internationalisation, obviously with different objects but they tie together in there I thought he mentioned in the book
@Leri it shouldn't... Because to your lib it would appear if it was exeuction as normal
user895378
@David The only things that should happen in the front controller are things that apply to every single request ... if you have resources in your application that don't require authorization then you shouldn't be performing auth in the front controller.
@rdlowrey I definitely don't want to do it in the page controllers so where should it go then?
user895378
14:43
You need to lose this idea of "page controllers"
What do you call them?
user895378
functions (or object methods)
@rdlowrey I personally use a listener - front controller (in my case) emits events, and those are used to define whether authorization check has to be applied or not (against a map, usually). If the check has to be applied, then you do your stuff and eventually throw an exception.
user895378
request -> front controller routes request -> function
Your routes go to callbacks?
14:44
@David a controller is just an aggregation of multiple callbacks
we're just used to action controllers because of organizational purposes
but yes, actions are just callbacks
Use a 'firewall' to decide which routes require authentication and which don't?
Well that's confusing I get @David 's pings too haha.
This is pretty much what I coded:
Also, I don't believe in guarding routing - I implemented it because it's an often requested feature, but authorization checks should really be applied once you know what functionality in your app is requested.
@Ocramius I firmly believe ACL should not be at the controller or route level, but at the domain model level.
@ircmaxell that's another question - ACL checks in the service layer are indeed needed
14:48
@Ocramius Introduce a NoGuard
user895378
I cringe every time I see the word "service" ... to me it stands for everything that's enterprisey and terrible about code :)
:-)
lol
but it's just too unpractical to code ACL in every part of your domain. Sometimes it's not even supposed to be part of the domain (depends on the domain, heh)
user895378
Service == PC Load Letter
@rdlowrey that's pretty much an accurate definition... Deal with it, it's our job to code horrible business requirements
14:49
@ircmaxell Are you saying don't authorise someone until a certain piece of functionality in your domain model has been invoked?
@LeviMorrison So array_shift is best used when having a dummy variable that can hold the unwanted result?
user895378
I need to start using a PcLoadLetterException
@David yes, you basically tie authorization with your business logic instead of the dispatch/routing stuff
@David don't authorize anyone ever because people suck ;)
@Gordon I like :-)
14:50
@David right, becuase it's your business logic that should be guarded, not the path to that logic. Otherwise, if you build a separate interface to the same logic (think CLI, or REST API), you'd need to duplicate the auth
@ircmaxell This is what I had in mind while asking that and I don't see how it would be normal execution for my code. Well, I might be missing something (more likely knowledge)... If the latter seems to be the case. Tell me what I can read up on, in your opinion.
@Ocramius it saves you the branching. just delegate all the way through with NoGuard
@Gordon yes, in truth it already happens like that (there's basically no listener :P ), the diagram just shows what the logic flow is
@Leri objects wouldn't be shared as trivially between executions like that. And yes, locks or communication channels would still need to be preserved like that. But if someone wants to do that, they should be able to
@ircmaxell Ah yes that makes sense. Do you wrap the services or whatever you use in some sort of decorator?
14:52
@David you can. A proxy is a good use for that as well
@David if the domain includes authorization rules, then you shouldn't really "hide" the authorization rules
they should be explicit and crying out
user895378
I know I sound like I'm championing badass rockstar tech but ... The best part about non-blocking IO is that you don't have to think about locks or communication channels ...
user895378
If it weren't for filesystem IO I don't know why you'd ever want to use threads
@rdlowrey in a case like he's describing, you would need to think about locks or communication channels
where you have 2 independent async processes (tasks) that really are dependent on each other.
@Ocramius What do you mean by "hide" the rules?
user895378
14:55
@ircmaxell If task B is dependent on the results from task A then they can't execute in parallel, right? What am I misunderstanding here?
user895378
And if you need to communicate between tasks then: coroutines.
@rdlowrey correct. But that's the question that @Leri asked about, which is why I said locks or some other communication channel (which a coroutine would suffice for)
user895378
Oh I see
@David building wrappers that deny access make your ACL checks "hidden". If you remove the business logic from its context, the ACL checks will be gone
it really depends whether the ACL checks are defined by the specification or not IMO
@Ocramius So are you saying explicitly put the checks as the first line of the function?
14:58
@David could be, yes
it strongly depends on what you're working with...
@David it really depends if the functionality has to ALWAYS have that check or if it should be usable standalone as well
cases can be made for both, especially for sensitive data
Oh man, this stuff just keeps growing and growing. Just when you think you have enough done
ha
where do you think you're working? Carpentry?
14:59
Sometimes I wish
user895378
@ircmaxell I think the hard part here is trying to adapt an async solution for a (huge) ecosystem that was originally developed with no thought to async. It's a difficult problem. Things like Go/node had the advantage of starting from scratch. It's a lot easier to define the parameters for the environment up front and then let the ecosystem evolve around them instead of the other way around :/
Well, if it's done right, no change to the underlying ecosystem should be necessary...
I have services and domain objects, is this where I should be doing the authorisation? I don't want to go changing stuff only to find out I did it all wrong
The services are pretty much the interface to the domain model so I assume the authorisation would go in there...or?
Can anyone explain to me why it is so wrong to declare a variable inside a foreach and getting either the first or last result as response instead of everything in the variable
@DavidH Because you can use array_pop() to get the last element of an array instead?
or array_shift() to get the first one?
15:10
@rdlowrey What's you opinion of authorisation being doing at the domain model layer vs being done earlier in the application?
@Jimbo Oh I know but let me put it like this. I have a foreach and a foreach inside of it. In the 2nd foreach I declare a variable that holds all the information that is fetched. But as soon as I use that variable outside of the 2nd foreach, you'll get incorrect information.
Basically you can't use variables you made inside a foreach outside of it.
Hmmm thinking about it now it sure does make sense. If you move the domain model to a new platform it's not good because now you have to define all the new authorisation rules for that platform so people can't access things they shouldn't be able to
@DavidH Because that variable will not exist if your foreach doesn't execute in the case there's nothing to loop around
user895378
Personally I map any given HTTP request to a single callable. If that callable requires that the user is authorized then the dependencies that callable requires to authorize the user are passed into it. Request/response is simple ... there's no need to complicate it IMO.
@Jimbo Exactly! Now that's my problem. I have this For loop I need that variable in but, we all know what happens when you put a foreach in a for loop.
15:14
Does anyone else have an initial commit message they always use? Mine's "Initial commit; oh boy, here we go!"
@rdlowrey Yeah makes sense too. Since you don't like the word "services" what do you use to place related domain layer application logic?
@ircmaxell Hey. Do you have experience with foursquare cipher?
Hmm ok.
@ircmaxell What way do you most commonly organise your web applications? Web MVC or what?
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15:18
@David Dependencies.
user895378
function myResponder($request, $pdo) { return "<html></html>"; }
@DanLugg I stole Initial vomit from @PeeHaa
@David I tend to not use MVC...
I use more of a loose structure based on RMR (Resource Method Representation)
user895378
^ the only sensible http architecture IMO
@ircmaxell Going to look into this thanks. It may change my life. Web MVC has caused me some nightmares in the past
15:21
@ircmaxell Makes sense now. Also you never can completely prevent stupidity.
Any code examples on RMR that you have lying around?
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@David If you hear someone discussing MVC and the web in the same sentence it's highly likely that they don't know what they're talking about.
lol, I just read a blog title: "Is RMR the new MVC?"
@rdlowrey What about tereskos strong views on it to say the least haha
user895378
15:25
@tereško knows what he's talking about. And I seriously doubt he would tell you anything different from what I just said ;)
@rdlowrey He does know what he's talking about that's for sure. I'd like to hear his opinion on the RMR.
user895378
RMR means nothing more than "map requests to callables using the URI and HTTP method"
user895378
Which is the only sensible thing to do in an HTTP application
Would web MVC not fit into that definition sort of?
user895378
Separation of concerns !== MVC
15:29
I thought MVC was === to Soc
user895378
Separation of concerns is just good design. It's not the same thing as MVC. MVC is not even feasible in a stateless HTTP environment.
@rdlowrey It is with ASP.NET VIEWSTATE ;-)
(I can't even pretend to take that seriously...)
Before I go further into this RMR where exactly does presentation logic go?
user895378
Separation of concerns. That's all you need. You don't need to learn/memorize some "specific place where things go"
I'd just be afraid then that some stuff gets mixed into places it shouldn't
I like the way I have it now because I know exactly where everything goes so I am afraid to change to something else and things go crazy
15:34
SoC is basically "SRP applied to architecture"
MVC (and MVC-like) patterns impose additional constraints on which-goes-where
@tereško Where do you think authorisation should be performed in a web MVC application?
@David You don't need to throw old things right away. As long as your code is easy to maintain and bug-free, leave it alone. Don't get me like I say you should not learn new things. Of course, you should! But to improve future yourself. This is just my opinion for sure. :)
@David imho, it should happen outside of it
@Leri That's true.
unless you have some fine-grained authorization rules withing domain logic
15:36
@tereško Routing level?
As soon as you know the route is a valid resource and exists then you think authorisation should occur?
because I am a lazy bastard
CRAP. I hate finding blocking bugs
user895378
@ircmaxell :(
15:38
you had a problem, and you used thread to solve it .. now you have multiple problems at the same time
@ircmaxell not really, the engine is only made up of a million component parts all calling what might or might not be re-entrant and thread safe code, we have tsrm in place of a GIL, it's one or the other really or agressive use of primitives as in java ... my guess would be that this is the reason that python used a gil, not because the core VM cannot be made safe very easily but because its impossible to determine if what you're calling will behave itself
user895378
off-topic: my dog has finally learned the "roll over" command I've been drilling her with for the last month \o/
that's one of the most useless commands that a dog can learn
.. surpassed only by "lick own balls" command
15:39
But learning to learn is important, tereško.
dat tru
github.com/zendframework/zf2/blob/… <-- that should be a syntax error. GDI PHP
@JoeWatkins fair enough
When dispatching events is there a good way of one of the listeners to alter the flow of the code which dispatched the event?
@rdlowrey Was saying generators, is that the only option?
@ircmaxell I done some playing with the idea of language level support ... the reality appears to be before it can be supported at the syntax level as a natural language feature, the engine must be changed, or rather TSRM must be changed ... we require what TSRM provides, isolation, but we require it faster and all the time, if we had a close to 0 overhead implementation of tsrm (which is doable) we wouldn't need to jump through hoops using streams and syscalls to get the job done
there are no platforms or hardware left (that we have to worry about) that do not have good support for real threads, so that's what to aim at ...
we require the isolation for the sake of those modules, its either lock up or lock down :)
@JoeWatkins sounds good to me
15:51
I intend to come back to it .... 1.7 million things to do at the minute ... roughly ...
I think I may have had a miraculous influence on the company I'm working for ... yesterday, they signed up to github, and intend to release code, probably some of it written by me, but they are going to join in ... which is pretty damn cool of them I think ...
/me screwed up whole DAL again. sigh
@ircmaxell Why? It's a little weird looking but it does make sense (sort of)
you don't see it as ambiguous?
I'll put it this way, it caused me to issue this PR: github.com/sebastianbergmann/phploc/pull/80/files
15:56
something that is weird looking and only sort of makes sense ... pretty good description of ambiguous isn't it :D
@ircmaxell Not really. The identifier being declared belongs in the declared namespace, the thing it is extending is a symbol that already exists. It's a sanity error, but it's not a syntax error
@DaveRandom so what happens if you referenced RuntimeException::FOO somewhere else in the code? It should be a syntax error IMHO
@ircmaxell Yes, but what exactly is the error? Trying to extend an entity with the same name as you are declaring, or simply trying to declare an entity with the same name as something that has been imported?
symbol collision
user895378
@JoeWatkins nice!
16:06
@ircmaxell Wait a minute, that doesn't work anyway: 3v4l.org/Gq6Re
16:17
@DaveRandom it lasted 5 days, so perhaps ;-)
@JoeWatkins whatcha doing?
trying to stop ... need to go out tonight ...
LOL
Come work where I work :P
Wiki.php.net: Left or Right? i.sstatic.net/XgY4T.png
Right, for some reason, consistency maybe.
16:21
(Ignore extra space in Table of Contents)
@webarto looking for person to replace you again ?
@LeviMorrison Left is more readable IMO, I hate those block headings
@LeviMorrison left, without the silly indenting (of the lower subheadings)
@webarto I don't know how many times I've told you, rioting does not count as employment
@salathe Why no indenting? I like that, it picks out the sub headings nicely
The indenting looks weird
16:27
@DaveRandom I don't like that it randomly changes the page width
@salathe It's anything but random.
@LeviMorrison When I'm scanning the page rather than reading, it's a random indent that my brain shouldn't have to deal with.
If you are scanning RFCs then shame on you.
Read it top-bottom in which case the indenting really helps you logically keep track of where you are.
@LeviMorrison Maybe I want to re-find an interesting bit.
Needing to move my eyes around rather than scan vertically isn't good.
Use the Search feature.
Surely you can remember a keyword anyway.
Also, the indenting is on both.
16:30
@LeviMorrison If you like it, keep it. I'm just saying, I don't.
I also need to make the width of the pages bigger.
Too much empty space for no reason.
The indenting doesn't look as weird on the right one because the parts look like blocks between the (sub)headers
The left one looks more like continuous text with a sudden indentation..
Another win is that if I remove the 'block' around the header I can make the text of the header bigger.
I'd recommend checking out Laravel.
16:33
@levi
I like the left one
@LeviMorrison Need to do something with the TOC. Because it just stays at the top of the page it creates a load of wasted space on the right as soon as you scroll down a bit. Personally I'd like it available on the screen at all times but not visible unless I want it, maybe another icon on the roll-out menu thingy
I hate the scrolling TOC.
It's also problematic
On a laptop you can't see the whole TOC on your screen.
(For certain RFCs, anyway)
user895378
@MichaelCalkins before you get berated I feel the need to warn you: be prepared to defend your opinions if you advocate a framework here ;)
@rdlowrey Hahaha I wanted to see what would happen xD
@Levi The one on the left is just cleaner overall. More width is nicer though
@LeviMorrison Maybe it'd look nicer if you used Google Prettycode js to make that code easier to read.
16:46
Pretty sure that PrettyCode doesn't have a grammar highlighter for that code snippet.
Other snippets are highlighted.
Looking closer I see what you mean
@rdlowrey To most people it would look like he's advocating a framework, but actually it's a facade
4
user895378
@DaveRandom I see what you did there
To most people that joke would be getting old, but actually it's a... you get the idea
@LeviMorrison I thought I had a good idea but actually it would appear that it sucks
(after attempting to make an example)
@LeviMorrison totally getting to patch man, didnt have time this weekend ... it'll come though, I see still in draft at the minute, everything looks sensible tho, all good ...
16:55
Yeah, I need to polish things some more.
I'm in no rush; it's targeting PHP 5.7 or 6.
lol, I just noticed Joe got a ninja appearance in the bottom-right.
@LeviMorrison That's generally pretty nice, although the ToC is somehow missing something and I can't quite work out what.
Something that says: Hey, I'm the Table of Contents?
@DaveRandom I stopped following everyone on Twitter when that stuff was going on -_-
so dumb.. :P
@LeviMorrison Yeh something like that. They don't look like links somehow
17:02
I've recently searched PHP vs Python and it made me upset, the hipster lang is seemingly gaining popularity
emm ... which one is supposed to be "hipster lang" ?
@LeviMorrison Nice looking, but meaningless without actual functioning breadcrumbs.
@DesmondHume You're a troll.
@tereško Given that PHP was never cool, PHP can't possibly be a hipster language.
PHP is so mainstream
When PHP was less popular than Perl, PHP was the hipster lang, not anymore apparently
17:04
Yeh, true. We should all use cutting edge unproven tech to build business critical applications instead.
@DaveRandom (@all): with borders
@DesmondHume You do realise that Python is (considerably) older than PHP, right?
@LeviMorrison (Y)
user895378
@DesmondHume Probably because Python is awesome.
user895378
And PHP is ... well ... less so.
The word is special.
just like that.
17:29
@tereško Nope, it's great here, I would sign until EOL if I could. Who wouldn't benefit from Joe's expertise, right? How's your work so far?
@DaveRandom So, they've lied to me? :-(
weird, I just got a UPS shipment notification for something I never ordered, from somewhere I never ordered, to me... I don't know if I should be afraid or not
I do recognize the sender...
Hmmm, do they open up packages, I'm guessing not?
(it's not international)
Maybe belated 1st April joke, or antrax.
Why don't you ring the person and ask?
Record the conversation.
Ask someone to run it through Roentgen device.
Probably UPS can do that.
I'm sure UPS does check for that sort of things... explosives, chemicals, biological thingies, weapons...
(that reminds me, for no apparent reason)
Once there was this kid who spammed my forums, I got his IP and tracked ISP, had a good friend at ISP, he shut of his connection and TV... his dad called ISP and they've said he broke terms of service. His dad gave him a few slaps.
End of story.
@DaveRandom You can't do this in UK, right, right ^
17:50
lol

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