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12:02
Alright. I'm going to build my own version of Futon.Next. I thought that collaborating would be possible but apparently it isn't.
Own? Why so?
I fear that we'll made a lot of not completed proofs-of-concept and fail into holywar which one is real the Next one
at least I see two points: nodejs driven and couchapp driven
Discussing frameworks gets you to a situation where people say, "let them bikeshed and start working".
New technologies are generally rejected.
No, you apparently misunderstand that.
@OctavianDamiean suddenly, without this there is no work since this tools have to be used by everyone
There is not Node.js driven Futon.Next proposal at all.
sure I do since I have installed nodejs for the first time last night to make fauxton work(:
12:06
Node.js is just used to build Futon.Next, nothing else.
problem is in sources
CouchDB have to ship with Futon, how it will be in repo: precompiled without nodejs dependency or raw with it?
All I'm trying to say is that
2 mins ago, by Kxepal
at least I see two points: nodejs driven and couchapp driven
this is a wrong statement.
what's correct one that able to collaborate every one against single project?
That's the next point, I understood that Futon.Next would be a proper CouchApp and not bundled within CouchDB itself.
suddenly, it have to be bundled as "plugin"
12:09
Which makes sense.
A plugin is exact what's needed to have a flexible shipping process of Futon which would be decoupled from CouchDB.
sure, but there have to be some default ones to simplify start up
and there is again two options: couchdb plugins and futon one
they are different by nature
I feel strange about Futon.Next
Well, in the end all I know is that because of the nature of our discussions on the mailing lists I'm discouraged to collaborate on that one. I'll role my own thing which will be totally independent.
People that'll want to use my version (when it's done) are free to do so.
The problem currently is that most people are trying to force a "Develop -> Ship -> Discuss" cycle which is utterly wrong. In a collaborative and open project it is "Discuss -> Develop -> Ship".
I have no time to make my own prototype since my new coworker now not my new coworker anymore, I'd like to join some project as test-writter / patcher, but there no such to take. Futon2 is much more closer to be Futon.Next, but noone likes him, Yowzer need much care, love and tests, Fauxton is..."awkward" for the first sight(:
Futon 2 uses libraries which are of very very low quality that's why I'm certainly not going to waste time fixing it.
> In a collaborative and open project it is "Discuss -> Develop -> Ship".
12:16
Sammy.js is a pile of bad code.
^^^ that's what is going on now(:
may be, but it almost done to be Futon.Next
Yea, except that if you actually start to discuss frameworks it's over.
his quality is the matter of refactoring
What's the point of refactoring something which uses bad code?
because it works
12:18
No, it doesn't. If you need certain features of Sammy.js it'll break because Sammy.js is defunct.
Do you really want to start fixing Sammy.js too?
or replace it with something new, but after the actual job is done
not a perfectionist way, but it also a way to
I don't quite understand where that pressure comes from all of a sudden.
It's like we'd have a killer robot sitting there waiting for us not to ship Futon.Next in 1.3 so he can shredder us.
It's ideas rush I think
you have great idea and you want to implement it now
but Futon.Next is not planned for 1.3
12:22
I can remember a mail on the user@ ML to some user which stated that we don't let ourselfes be pushed into a "we need to release as soon as possible" scheme like MongoDB.
as Jan said, features shouldn't hold the release
Not we head exactly that way.
@Kxepal Which makes that pressure even more awkward.
sad, but true
I couldn't imagine how we have finish docs till release point
Everyone is all like "Oh frameworks, no sorry we have no time to debate frameworks, let's get cracking with some code and then think about the consequences of not discussing them".
there are a lot of work
12:25
Yea but no deadline either so no need to rush.
I mean Futon.Current works, if we ship Futon.Next with 1.4 or 1.5 so be it, we have something which works right now.
not only works, but had you see a lot of loud about "Where feature A? Where is feature B?" ?
for 80% it solves his task
I sent a mail to the ML regarding a Futon.Next IRC meeting.
I feel we need a live discussion outside of the ML about this.
you right, but in live discussion it's hard to provide any pros/cons of proposed solution...
any => good set of
much easy to write: "lets start maven project, it's cool and widely used" (:
Gotta run for now. Catch you later.
cya, gl!
13:27
Back.
@OctavianDamiean have you read Dales mail?
feature to control multiple instances might be very useful in light of BigCouch
Indeed. But as you can see we didn't even had the time to think about that or to wait on Dale's perspective because we were jumping the gun.
stop talk, make work (:
13:46
I really think about next concept: no redesign, replace jquery.couch with pouchdb, jquery.ui with bootstrap, sammy with backbone + better json editor and here we go.
need to play around with Futon2
Uh, that's more like a complete rewrite already. :D
refacoring
wrap every special things by futon.js and replace dependencies
looks easy on paper ((:
Uh, not really.
That's a proper rewrite, a totally new Futon.
while there is no any stable candidate that everyone loves, this should be at least fun and good chance to recover my webdev knowledge(:
yowzer is perspective at some point, but looks like Garren doesn't counting him at all
 
3 hours later…
17:15
@OctavianDamiean, shoot me next time when I'll dream about yet another new cool project to take a part of. Always forgot about what I've already to do /:
 
2 hours later…
19:26
@Kxepal Same here, please stop me from investing too much time into stuff like that.
I already sent a mail to the ML.
@OctavianDamiean just announce github like to let me setup alert for large amount of commits per day P:
I'll keep lurking on the ML on that topic and if this framework and technology aversion is going to continue I'll roll my own version.
Probably using Zurb's Foundation, Backbone.js and stuff like that.
if you allows to take pouchdb I'm gonna help you (; however, not principal, just want to make some project with backbone and pouchdb
I could take a part and without it since fauxton is too alien for me /:
I like PouchDB. I'm going to take a closer look how it can be integrated.
anyway, all decision is yours on this quest, I'm going to concentrate on docs while storm rules there(:
19:50
Hi, database question, im making mmorpg in nodejs, any suggestions for database system? :)
@Kikaimaru Hi! Do you need relations for your data? If no, CouchDB may be good choice(: but it still depends what problem you tries to solve with it
probably not, well i need to store data from my mmorpg game, like player level when player will logout and data will no longer be in memory, (saves has to be like every 10-30 minutes, and cant stop server from working)
and i cant store everything in memory at once, only things like logged clients etc
CouchDB doesn't keep anything in memory
I mean, you wouldn't hit same memory problems as with MongoDB but speed will be the price for it
and how does mongodb work? are these two (mongo and couch) just something like write("player1.level", 7) that will write it somewhere to file? ( simplified of course)
mongo keep data in memory for fast access and flush it to disk for time to time. couch always tries to keep data on disk. this means that with mongo there is good chance to loose data (there was transaction logs introduces recently, but they aren't solve the whole problem) while it provides more faster access to hot data.
but since you have nodejs frontend, better to take CouchDB as solid data storage and redis for hot and often updated one

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