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7:00 PM
I'll check it out later tonight.
 
Rob
The problem, though, is that a bunch of new languages have sprung up. New developers choose new languages, old developers remember what PHP used to be
 
Personally, I still think it's foolish to pursue a JIT compiler until we we have a strategy for inlining functions (which could be done at the opcode layer too, I suppose). Plus, we have only a few people who can even work with it; JIT compilers are significantly more complex than regular interpreters...
 
Rob
Ruby has now taken the title of old PHP, and I really don't understand how it's popular today
 
I was scanning through random github repos and I saw this PHP compiler
 
Rob
I'd much rather pick PHP over ruby, if that means anything :)
 
7:00 PM
I thought that would be kind of cool
 
Is that what we're talking about?
 
@Rob So you are not entirely a monster after all :)
 
@LeviMorrison You're a rebel.
 
@LeviMorrison You were saying about a DSN?
 
Rob
7:01 PM
@PeeHaa 99% monster is still a monster :)
 
I would wing it and call myself a half blood
 
@LeviMorrison I think both features are orthogonal
 
@PeeHaa Filthy muggle
 
@bwoebi Perhaps, but I see JIT compiling as pointless until inlining is feasible; otherwise we won't see significant speedups in average code bases.
 
@LeviMorrison I agree, but I think it's inevitable that we'll get some inlining in not so far future
 
7:04 PM
@Crell PDO doesn't have a way to query what its DSN is. So you can store it out-of-band with a weak map using the PDO object as the key. Then you can find it later when you want to know what the DSN was for a given query. All of this doesn't keep the PDO object alive (and hence the connection alive) when in a weak map, but would in a strong map.
 
and then inlining and JIT will nicely complement each other at that point
 
@Alesana I'll be honest generators in python are much better than php, "laziness" in python is a really interesting concept
 
@mega6382 Can you give an example?
 
@Crell Does that make sense to you?
 
@PeeHaa like next and current, in python you can get the next value by "next(generator_object)", but in php you have to call "$generator_object->next()" and then "$generator_object->current()" to get the value etc, and the "for in if" in python works really well with generators, but there is no equivalent of that in php as far as I could tell
 
7:10 PM
@mega6382 How is that related to laziness?
Wait. You mean developer laziness?
I see what you are saying now :D
 
I started fixing my warnings. Doesn't this look nice? foreach ($array[$row['Id']] ?? [] as $rows)
 
for(each) if is not related to generators though
 
@PeeHaa yes, but it works well with it and you get a one line solution :D
 
Do you use that a lot btw ?
 
I only use python for creating small scripts so not a lot
 
7:12 PM
Last time it came up I thought yeah that is kinda nice, but not sure how often you would need it (sans template rendering which was the first thing that came into my mind)
 
@LeviMorrison, Ah, so you have a map from connection to connection string? I... don't know when I'd use that. :-)
I was thinking first of rendering objects to strings (templating) and storing that, but that seems silly. Then I was thinking "Products and Comments on Products", but that has a lot of additional complexity it would entail.
 
Rob
@Dharman Pretty standard in other languages, I'd say
At least you can do the simple ?? [] rather than specifying the array type
 
Array based development is pretty disgusting in most cases imo in php
 
@PeeHaa I think that would immediately reverse if they tracked their contents structure and type :)
 
yes
 
7:24 PM
If I can spare the time (hopefully can, my kids are getting more independent) I want to try to add generic vec[] and dict[] types that are also pass-by-value like arrays so that people can essentially choose which structure and semantics they want.
Step one is making it possible for types (at least in core, maybe userland too) to be constructed from array literals, something like:
$myvec = vec[1, 3, 5];
$mydictionary = dict[1 => "one", 2 => "two"];
Could make SplFixedArray use the feature too, maybe others in SPL:
 
I really do not get that array hate
 
@LeviMorrison tuples would be nice too, $foo = [(foo, bar) => 'bar'] :)
 
$fixed = SplFixedArray[1, 3, 5, 7];
@bwoebi I don't hate them, but the lack of both structure and type does make them difficult for interface boundaries, bugs, etc.
 
@bwoebi Clearly you have never worked in a large array based project :P
 
/me twitches.
 
7:40 PM
@PeeHaa Arrays are okay as a localized on-the-fly struct … but yeah, don't pass big arrays with nested structures all across your app
 
fwiw that is where that hate comes from mostly ^
 
but converting arrays to dicts doesn't really help solving anything of that
 
/me has a whole presentation on this topic. And article in phpArchitect.
 
And then there is the application I am working on right now
 
Is there a better way of writing $histZb = (int) ($_GET['histZb'] ?? 0);?
 
7:42 PM
Which has global (in effect) arrays of... well.... basically every thing
 
Oh I have seen some proprietary apps with so many arrays going in and out of places that it becomes a nightmare to work with
 
@PeeHaa and putting them as big json blobs into nosql databases?
 
What is a nosql database? But yeah :D
 
I can't take anyone seriously who refers to their product as "NoSQL." You're literally defining it by "it doesn't use the most robust data description API in the world, yay!" Tell me what it's good for, not what it avoids through your ignorance and childishnessness.
 
Even better. Our mysql doesn't even support sql
So no, no nosql, it's more glorious
 
7:44 PM
thank god noSQL hype passed
 
Let's just say there is a lot of room for improvement going on here ;)
 
@BogdanUngureanu but the legacy apps using cassandra, mongo etc. remain…
 
oh... cassandra, fun times working with that c**p a few years ago
 
because it's really hard migrating away from a nosql database one you have many tables/keyspaces with each very complex structures inside
 
the guy who worked before me had the brilliant idea to create a driver for it for CI's DB class
 
7:47 PM
something cassandra pre-1.0 beta … something …
 
what a nightmare... sheesh
 
// custom version (exact state unknown)
and 2027 we're going to have a problem due to our default expiration time of 10 years which cannot be represented in 31 bit then :-)
which will force us to upgrade and about every internal structure of the storage layer has changed in the meanwhile with no upgrade path, except literally creating a new cluster and copying everything
fun times ahead
 
yeah, not really. :D
at least it's not CQRS and don't have data integrity or eventual consistency issues
 
@BogdanUngureanu but doing an 1:1 copy of data would create consistency issues thanks to constant updates
 
Yeah, but afaik had those materialized views you could use
but I think it was introduced later
 
8:12 PM
@BogdanUngureanu tell that to people using mongo, dynamo and the fucking real-time db, I don't understand why they make such stupid decisions just to get work on the new "exciting" tech, jeez
 
8:40 PM
@bwoebi What's "big?"
 
Your mother
 
LOL!
@PeeHaa I did not hear a ding. I was looking at something else, hovered over the tab and saw a (1) and thought "yay, I got an answer." Clicked! Sigh...
 
I saw a funny one of these the other day... but it's too soon.
 
@StatikStasis something like this, [..., [..., [..., [..., []]]]] deeply nested and with many elements
 
8:52 PM
Why, in Guzzle 6, does a 403 result in... an exception that doesn't contain the HTTP code? How does that make any sense at all?
 
@mega6382 Ah! Deeply nested arrays. That makes sense.
 
@Tpojka :D
@StatikStasis <3
 
=P
Heading home, all. Have a good evening.
and weekend!
 
\o
 
9:15 PM
Later @StatikStasis
 
omg
ruby continues to innovate
Guess what fib(x) => y does
 
Start a fib sequence from x?
gimme price
 
It's the same as y = fib(x) duh
 
I wish php did fibonacci by default
/me checks builtins
 
Ohh I didn't even know that PHP 8 let you unpack keyed arrays for function arguments using the keys for the argument name it represents
I found out on accident lol
 
9:30 PM
PHP 8 has a lot of stuff. Hence why I'm doing a long blog series on it. :-)
 
I'm excited for the blog post
Is there any PHP 8 features that need documentation that are maybe higher priority than the random things I found?
Are there *
I'm not doing a good job of selling myself as a writer here :p
 
Almost certainly. @cmb Are we documenting PHP 8 yet, or still on hold for removing the PHP 5 bits?
 
ReflectionType::__toString() hasn't thrown E_DEPRECATED ・ Reflection related ・ #80151
 
9:56 PM
@Girgias @MateKocsis During Hacktoberfest, I was thinking about creating some Docker images to make it easier for people to contribute to PHP, and maybe even think about GitHub's Codespace (docs.github.com/en/free-pro-team@latest/github/…). Wanna hangout one day to try it?
 
@GabrielCaruso sure might be up for it, depends when it would be :)
 
We can schedule that. Gonna shot an email about it, have some other folks interested as well
 
10:38 PM
@Crell please alert me as well //cc @cmb
 
I'll hold off on documenting these self-explanatory methods that people will likely rarely use :p
 
@Crell cmb has PRs in doc-en on github
for PHP 8
@Girgias is insisting that we start adding documentation directly :P
github.com/php/doc-en/… @Crell @Alesana @mega6382
 
@Tiffany Yeah, thats what cmb told me as well a couple of days ago
 
I think we're waiting on a GA release first? (correct me if I'm wrong @cmb)
anyway, going to go play video games cause it's Friday night and I don't want to think about working on stuff :P
I can work on PHP documentation tomorrow
 
I am open to work on it tonight
I just don't know what needs working on :p
I should probably investigate the php-src code changes as well so I can understand the features enough to document them
 
10:55 PM
@Alesana reading the RFCs sometimes is enough
 
Good point
 
That's how I documented the variance changes and typed properties
You could revise/improve my variance page if you think it can be improved. It's pretty barebones :/
I think it could benefit from having more info about LSP, but it's difficult for me to word it well.
Oh, and subscribe to the docs mailing lists if you haven't yet
 
I think I subscribed with a news reader but I never used it
I might as well subscribe through emial
 
Microsoft teams is such a piece of shit, I hate it so much. I seriously think I could build something better than this utter garbage by myself in a year.
 
@DaveRandom At my new job we use it and I have no idea why anyone would intentionally use it
 
11:10 PM
What really fucks me off is that MS know how to build UI better than this, for all its faults Office (and even Windows) is pretty intuitive, I rarely have to Google shit other than technical things, I can usually figure out how to do stuff by myself in a couple of mins. By contrast, teams feels like a student project
So many stupid basic usability issues, the mobile apps are updated hourly and frequently very unstable
They really need to just call it what it is, which is a clandestine public beta
Maybe even alpha tbh, so much of it is broken/randomly breaks
Having used slack, which is far from perfect, I feel like I have an idiot colleague who we can't criticise for nepotistic reasons
I would rather write messages on paper planes and/or use skype
 
I might be biased but I honestly hate using Microsoft Office tools
I would much rather use Google Docs
 
We use rocket chat at work
 
@Alesana same, they are simple and easy to use, better fits my usual needs too ans sharing is easy
 
Windows I'll give it to them I do like the interface there maybe more than Mac OS but for development since I've started using a Mac I can't develop on Windows. That's not related to the UI though
 
Which is like slack, but I dunno what the differences are
 
11:18 PM
Oh yeh some other insanity I just remembered, you cannot join a call from more than one device at once, including to the extent that if you are already on a call on your phone, and decide you want to screen share with the other person on PC, it creates a new "call" putting the previous one on hold in an unmergable way
 
@mega6382 Yup. And if you need some feature that doesn't exist, that could possible decrease your workload by 90%, you can use the google scripting
 
Android push notifications are I would estimate about 80% reliable, dunno about iOS
 
Some many years ago I had a job where I had to do some data entry stuff. I wrote a script to do it all for me and ended up doing 10% as much work
 
I'm too used to Word, even with all its faults, I still prefer it.
 
It is not possible to "reply" (quote reply) to a chat message on the desktop app, but it is on mobile
 
11:19 PM
@DaveRandom Isn't there any good open source alternative that you can deploy on your own server?
 
It is not possible to forward messages without copypasta
 
Lolwat
 
but I guess lack of mobile apps will be a drawback for the opensource solution
 
If you copy/paste text from a website it copies the background colour format but not the foreground, regularly resulting it things being unreadable in dark them because white-on-white
Like seriously, none of these are made up and all of them are unacceptable in production
 
This is a stupid thing but with meetings, if you have a meeting when it starts you get a popup and you can click it to go to the meeting
 
11:22 PM
@mega6382 just use slack. It's the best all round thing (imho)
 
It will even say "X Has started the meeting" when someone starts it
 
And fuck hosting it yourself as well
 
But if the popup isn't there, you have to go to the calendar and find the meeting and then click on a link in the meeting
I feel like there should be "Active Meetings" that you're invited to or something easier to find
 
Just buy an internet connection and make it someone else's problem
 
Actually, you know what, fuck talking with your colleagues, it only ends up adding more to your workload :D
 
cmb
11:24 PM
@Alesana I had the same (or very similar) issue. I basically did svn co URL path, and after that failed, I tried the same command again, got a notice about a necessary clean, did that, and svn co URL path again. Repeated that 2 or 3 times, and finally had a good checkout.
 
@Alesana ahh yeh I forgot about the fact that I have sometimes ended up trapped in a meeting where the UI is still responding but won't navigate anywhere other than the previous meeting until you kill it and restart
On both desktop and mobile, weirdly
They must be unrelated but weirdly that description fits the problem on both devices
 
That is weird. I wonder if their mobile app is just some type of wrapper around their web app
 
cmb
@Crell nope, still on hold. Peter already archived the PHP5 docs, and I'm hoping to get the bulk removal done over the weekend. We may start PHP8 docs next week. /cc @mega6382
 
@Alesana omg yes this, what you need to do, insanely, is go to youe outlook calendar
 
cmb
But we also need to adapt PhD; for now, we don't have union type support amongst other things.
 
11:27 PM
@cmb It just won't finish after trying it like 10 times. I am actually going to write a script that will keep trying to check it out until it succeeds lol
 
Also if you want to set a proper out of office (instead of just "away") your have to do that in outlook as well
 
@cmb thanks for the update
@DaveRandom don't you work at platform, I would think they would use a better solution than the that causes so much issues.
 
It is a one size fits all counter-productivity tool
2
 
Luckily I only use it for meetings and use slack for all other chat
 
@mega6382 No not for a while, they (mostly) use good things, and in any case it's a largely Windows-free environment
They use(d) slack, which I am not exactly a huge proponent of but at least it works and broadly makes sense
 
11:30 PM
@cmb If you know of anything in particular that you need help on once we start documenting it let me know and I can jump on it. Otherwise I'll just start with what I can find.
 
cmb
@Alesana it might make sense to start writing the migration guide (basically, convert UPGRADING to docbook) right after RC1 has been released (scheduled for Thursday). I don't think anybody so far is planning to work on this.
 
Yup I can do that
 
cmb
that would be great. Thanks!
 
I will look over all of the changes to try to get a good grasp on what is needed over the weekend and throughout the week
Cool! Happy to help!
I've just spend the past two weeks upgrading a bunch of services from 7.1 to 7.4 so my mind is still stuck on PHP migration as it is
 
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