« first day (3581 days earlier)      last day (1353 days later) » 

cmb
6:00 PM
regarding .editorconfig: probably makes sense, generally (although it's not supported by Notepad)
 
Ugh, and of course it didn't let me know that there was a comment.
 
cmb
that's strange
 
No, but it's supposed by a lot of IDEs, so I figure it can help some and get ignored by others.
 
cmb
yes, deffo
 
When fixing a bug, should I first create an entry on bugs.php.net and reference it in the commit message, or first make the PR on GitHub & reference that in the bug description?
 
6:01 PM
Re trailing whitespace, is there much there now? Normally the recommendation is for everyone to trim whitespace as they work, so they never get added in the first place.
 
cmb
regarding the automatic trailing whitespace trimming in docs: what do others think about that, especially translators (cc @Girgias)
 
If there's a lot now, we could also have a big single pass that cleans up all whitespace and nothing else, and then expect people to keep it clean thereafter.
 
cmb
@Pete usually bug ticket first, then PR (you can have "Fix #12345" then in the commit message)
@Crell I assume there are many (particularly with otherwise empty lines); a separate commit might be helpful for translators (still they'd need to update the EN-REVISIONs)
 
Hm. I can back that line out of the file for now, but long-run I think enforcing whitespace trimming is for the best.
 
cmb
hmm, .editorconf in php-src has trim_trailing_whitespace = true (except for .patch), so might be good for docs as well
 
6:07 PM
@cmb @Crell was going to comment on the PR, but if it only applies to the file currently being commited I don't really mind, as I personally already ignore whitespace changes when I update revisions... so if a tool can do it automatically for me that's kinda a bonus on my side
 
What that flag does is tell IDEs that know how to use it "when saving a file, trim whitespace in it first." Most IDEs AFAIK will therefore trim whitespace throughout a file that you're touching, but only those files.
 
cmb
actually, I ignore whitespace changes when updating translations as well …
 
editorconfig.org - There's a few other settings we could leverage if we want.
 
cmb
maybe something to discuss on the mailing list?
 
What a concept. :-)
 
6:11 PM
All XML files should have VIM editor settings in the bottom.
 
They do, but that doesn't help non-vim users. :-)
 
CRLF-only line in heredoc causes parsing error ・ Scripting Engine problem ・ #79934
 
cmb
@PeeHaa which one?
 
huh, didn't know .editorconfig was a thing, I should look into that
 
6:27 PM
@Crell Congrats on your newly found powers :-)
 
@cmb I opened #79934 (as you can see above) and github.com/php/php-src/pull/5944. Is there anything else I need to do?
 
cmb
@Pete thanks! I'll have a look later this evening, if nobody beats me to it.
 
@Derick Isn't there something we can do to finally get rid of Reindl?
 
regarding the status of edit.php.net and edit-new.php.net, what does it entail to get up and running? I would like to help with it, but only if I am not a hindrance in completing it
 
6:53 PM
@cmb We are eagerly waiting for this github.com/php/php-src/commit/… :)
We want to keep all our php versions the same across platforms to make it a bit less confusing
 
7:27 PM
@Kalle Like what?
 
@Crell what, the idea of an actual discussion happening on the mailing list?
 
@NikiC Dmitry doesn't respond. Can you answer this question? github.com/php/php-src/pull/5922#issuecomment-668109531
 
!!rfcs
 
Only one? :O everyone should go vote in favour of it!
 
7:29 PM
I'm glad that StackFrame one didn't pass
like that is a thing I want, but that naming and design was horrible
 
@Jeeves Voting on that one is all over the place so far.
 
Just imagine how the vote would go if we follow it up with one for 8.1 prohibiting the use of \PHP
 
I have deliberately not yet voted due to still not actually knowing what I think
 
@DaveRandom On the docs list, yes, re editorconfig and whitespace trimming.
 
@Crell I have occasionally wondered if it's possible (read: sensible) to reject pushes based on a really basic set of "are you being a dumbass" formatting rules
particularly spaces vs tabs in php-src
the number of times I have pulled something down that looks fine on opengrok but looks like it was written by a drunk person in CLion
ftr I say that as a person who is regularly a weapons-grade dumbass
 
7:44 PM
:-)
 
@DaveRandom a lovable weapons-grade dumbass
 
Git pre-recieve hooks are possible, but not what I'm talking about jere.
Mainly I just want to get my IDE recognizing the one-space rule on php-docs, even though I think it's a stupid formatting policy. :-) I want my IDE to deal with it.
 
Over wjere?
 
@StatikStasis tjere!
 
7:45 PM
La la la
...
 
... nothing to see jere.
 
Tjere, fixed
 
@Crell do you know if platform.sh still wants security people? Friend of mine sponsored me a ticket for an infosec virtual conference... I may start dabbling
 
7:49 PM
@Tiffany on occasion :-P
 
@Crell cool, thanks.
 
@Crell ahh right that old chestnut... I fully endorse this, iirc there was some discussion on the topic a couple of years ago so it might be worth greping the archives before you start
 
Eh, I'm not proposing changing it, just making it easier to set IDEs to enforce it.
 
I think broadly positive discussion as well, just never made it as far as someone actually doing something about it
it's not really any different from vim hints (better in fact)... on which subject, can editors not be made to pay attention to that?
I think they are already there across most of the various PHP projects
 
An .editorconfig file would make sense for php-src, too, but I am not getting into that at this point.
 
7:53 PM
yeh but aren't there vim hints in doc sources as well?
#lazyweb
 
Yes, which is great if you use vim and otherwise useless. :-)
 
@Crell The editorconfig only makes sense when it's enforced in the CI pipeline. We have it in our projects but it doesn't do shit, it's just sitting there :P
 
@Crell that's what I mean though, surely a lot of editors must have plugins for that?
 
It's there to set the IDE. It makes PHPStorm format the way the repo wants.
 
7:55 PM
editorconfig.org - There's a metric a**load of tools that support editorconfig. Including vim, via plugin. :-)
 
@Crell "via plugin" there's the problem :P
Yeah I guess PhpStorm supports it now (without an additional plugin).
 
yeh but better than having to set the project props individually every time
 
PHPStorm has supported it for at least 6 years.
 
@Crell The plugin was only enabled by default recently I think.
 
I have (had?) a plugin for it in phpstorm, is it native now?
 
7:57 PM
I honestly don't recall Storm ever not supporting it.
If it's a plugin, it's a default plugin. Regardless, it's very widely supported.
And if a given editor doesn't support it, it just gets ignored, like everything that's not vim ignores the vim settings.
 
I remember having to install a plugin when I very first ever saw that site, I think it's always "just worked" ever since though
 
The only question is whether we include the "trim whitespace on save" flag or not.
 
oh, well then I vote "yes"
 
@Crell Sure, what I mean is most people won't bother installing a plugin and contribute not properly formatted code anyway.
The only way to prevent this is to actually test it in the CI pipeline.
 
yeh but it's a step in the right direction to making it easier to not do stuff wrong
 
7:59 PM
Possibly, in which case it's no different to now. Enforcing coding style in the CI is a separate issue I'm happy to let someone else deal with.
 
it's the difference between enforcing the rules and making the rules easier to work within
(right?)
 
"Make supporting IDEs auto-format for you" vs "make the CI whine if you step out of line." I'm only dealing with the former at the moment. The latter is someone else's problem and mostly orthogonal.
 
@DaveRandom Sure. Maybe my initial statement was misleading. I don't mind an editorconfig being there, I just wouldn't expect it to fix the problem.
 
Otherwise, my IDE gives everything 4 spaces by default and then @cmb yells at me. :-)
Fix? No. Improve? Likely. How much? Given the basically zero cost of adding it, anything is a net positive. :-)
 
@Derick Well at a certain point isn't it harashment, and in such case there must be something we can do because it is extremely tiresome to see his bs on the bug tracker, thousand aliases on the ML or people replying to him on internals because he sends replies in private
 
8:02 PM
@Crell Ok, let me rephrase. Sure, let's add/improve the editorconfig. Any maybe let's further it by testing formatting in the pipeline & adding other, more specialized formatting tools ;)
 
Endorse.
 
@IluTov I used match in a small test script I wrote at work, it was fantastic ;-)
 
@Kalle Nice :D I'll need to convince my company to run the beta in production so I can start using it ^^
 
@Kalle restraining order......? I have no idea how that would work and I doubt the PHP project has the money for a lawyer
 
@Kalle If you have time, can you take a glance at github.com/php/php-src/pull/5849?
 
8:05 PM
@IluTov sure
 
Some kind of legal recourse of "LEAVE US THE @#$! ALONE"
 
@Tiffany well I have no idea how it would work, but something because it has been going on for years
 
Who are we talking about?
 
Reindl
 
rhsoft guy
 
8:07 PM
Can we add a fee of $1 per bug report? That will stop him pretty quickly xD
 
lol you know someone is really being an absolute hammer when people will mention them by name in here :-P
2
(just a reminder that this channel is public and indexed by google)
 
@NikiC Must have missed it in my inbox, I will try to test it out. How critical is it to get in?
 
@DaveRandom I mean, blocking him is currently done in git and that's public too...
Rather, the change is committed to git
 
@Kalle Not particularly urgent, just a bugfix
Or rather, an exif-is-a-completely-braindead-standard fix :)
 
@Tiffany yeh sure and I think we are way past that being a concern with him anyway
 
8:09 PM
Have someone from systems send him a cease and desist letter to all of his used emails. State that he is being refused access and any attempt to bypass the technical measures will result in a complaint to his ISP's abuse department.
 
...but I still think it is prudent to remind people of that sometimes :-P
@MarkR is there any legal recourse with that, out of interest?
 
@DaveRandom With the cease and desist or the complaint?
 
well either really, being that the internet doesn't have any real governance
I genuinely don't know how this works and have occasionally wondered
 
Deliberately bypassing protections to gain access to a system you're not authorised to be in would be considered a crime in most western countries. Making it clear to an ISP their networks are being used for unauthorised access will usually result in a threatening letter to the user, followed by contract termination if they keep it up
 
yeh indeed, it's the "most western countries" bit that intrigues me really
 
8:13 PM
Where's he from, if we know?
 
ncurses has not been updated to support PHP 7 ・ ncurses ・ #79935
 
like afaik you can't prosecute someone under the authority of "most western countries"
 
@MarkR cc @Derick
 
so I wonder how said countries figure out who is responsible for trying it
like if the guy is German but lives in France, who's problem is it?
 
If it was a genuine attack, interpol.
But in this case it would be a horrendous waste of money even trying to prosecute, we just want him to stop, which is something his ISP will tell him to do
 
8:15 PM
sure, but they are investigators not prosecutors
I feel like I'm coming across as belligerent here but ftr I am just genuinely asking the question :-P
(and I also realise that probably no-one here has the authoritative answer)
 
Usually a regional level state prosecutor. It only tends to get higher up if it rises to the level of extradition.
e.g. Gary McKinnon
 
@MarkR what I'm getting at is, in this scenario how do you figure out which state prosecutor is the one that has to kick the process off?
 
Why isn't "block him from the list and bugtracker and move on with life" an option exactly?
 
@Crell he keeps subverting it
 
like the fact that I was in country X when I committed a cyber crime is kind of irrelevant if I went there for one day to do it and spend all my time in country Y, surely that should be country Y's problem
 
8:18 PM
Using different email accounts
 
Next step is hitmen, then.
 
ping @DejanMarjanovic ^^
 
Oh good lord. Has anyone confronted him directly about it?
 
@DaveRandom Would usually start in the location the offence was committed against, they'd investigate, contact their counterparts in the country the suspect lived in, and if it came to prosecution either one would have legitimate jurisdiction, but usually the country the offence was committed against would have priority
 
8:19 PM
Yes
He was banned from internals mailing list by rasmus even
 
@MarkR yeh I mean that's kind of what I assumed in a way, I guess what I'm really asking is how does one define "usually" in that context... which obv is not a question you can answer I realise that :-P
 
The recently twitter hack for example, 2 were in the US, 1 was in the UK. The person in the UK is likely to face extradition at the request of the US dept of justice
 
yes but in a way that's a bit more clear cut because it was a specific attack against a US-based company
the PHP project doesn't have a "home" in that respect
like I say, not expecting an actual definitive answer don't worry :-P
 
Aye, ultimately it just depends on what the people investigating it want to do. There's no rigid process afaik
 
so tl;dr do wtf you want? sweet, brb 5 years, crack binge
 
8:23 PM
Just going after the ISP is the best way, they don't want to even risk the legal trouble and every ISP contract on Earth includes termination provisions for missuse.
 
@Crell took me a while to find it because I'm on my phone. My cat has banned me from my computer for the time being. externals.io/message/101479#101528
 
@MarkR I guess in a way this driven by an idle wondering about whether you could essentially get away with stuff like that just by having big enough balls
 
e.g. anytime I try to sit at my desk, she gets in the way, persistently meows, and is only quiet when I lay in bed with her
 
Because cats.
I mean has anyone spoken to him directly to try and convey why his behavior is so out of line?
 
like if you are brave enough you can put anything into a vortex of jurisdiction arguments and never have any real consequences
@Crell a lot of times
 
8:33 PM
OK, then ax him.
 
@DaveRandom Quite a lot tbh. But eventually you'll come across someone who is either paid to, or just has nothing better to do, than retaliate and make your life hell.
 
@Crell probably, but I haven't read internals long enough to find the emails
 
Or just go live in Russia and China, both of which have state governments that actively encourage cyberabuse.
 
@DaveRandom "vortex of jurisdictional arguments" is how about 3/4 of all online harassers avoid even being investigated, much less prosecuted.
 
@Crell the decision to "victimise" a specific individual in an open source project was not taken lightly, ftr. I was not involved directly but I do remember it happening, and it was a hot topic for several months before that with several very clear "warnings"
 
8:34 PM
@Crell I'm guessing she may be getting over an illness and she wants mommy cuddles... yes, I called myself mommy to my cat
 
@Tiffany You say that like it's abnormal.
 
on at least two occasions before it escalated to this point he was banned and then unbanned from the bug tracker
@Crell yeh :-/
 
Once it gets to the point of people being paid to have to deal with the problems you cause, then you're into legitimate monetary damages at which point things take a turn.
 
@Crell for some people, it is. I don't think it is.
 
@Tiffany Who are we referring to?
 
8:35 PM
@DaveRandom he wasn't unbanned, he just keeps circumventing the bans
 
no at least twice he was temp banned
 
For example, even though Garry McKinnon caused no damage, they spent $700,000 on investigation and post-event security. So it was considered 700 grand in damages.
 
Oh, I've no problem bouncing someone who is disruptive. It should be done more often. I am just aware that sometimes well-meaning people can come off as over-aggressive trolls when they really aren't trying to be, and a face to face "dude, here's what people think of you" can turn them around. I've done that before myself.
 
@StatikStasis rhsoft guy
 
But if that's been attempted and he's just being an ass, then yeah, nuke him from orbit.
 
8:36 PM
I remember it very clearly, there will be discussions in here about it, and we are talking at least 3 years ago because I remember being in a different house
discussions in here will probably refer to him as "R"
 
@Crell Oh! There is this Z guy you should try that on... although he has been quiet since the last kerfuffle.
 
It works better in person. :-)
 
much like "Y" and "Z" there are a couple of people who occasionally get talked about in here by initial only :-P
 
@StatikStasis what Derick has done so far to try ridding him from commenting on bug reports, but it isn't working. git.php.net/?p=web/bugs.git;a=blobdiff;f=include/…
 
8:38 PM
@DaveRandom He who must not be named.
 
which one? :-P
 
You know, D (aka C)
 
All of the above
 
@StatikStasis oh what, that aveRandom bloke? asshat.
(yes I know)
 
lol
 
8:39 PM
That's the one. Quite the wanker.
 
"weapons-grade dumbass"
 
tbf I think R is the only person who seems like he is deliberately being an asshat... even Z usually has a point, even if I don't agree with it
 
@DaveRandom reindl?
 
yes, but I have a long-honed habit of not bad-mouthing people by name on public forums and I'm not about to break it
 
Row row row your boat?
Ah!
 
8:41 PM
@DaveRandom fair enough
 
@StatikStasis Richard Attenborough, weirdly. You'd think he was nice, as well.
 
Could not place who 'R' was. Must not have enough infamous rep built yet.
 
Really Horrible Software
I assume that's what it stands for
 
^^^
 
I'm out for the night, had about 3hrs sleep last night, going to try and rectify that
 
8:43 PM
Night
 
Sleep tight, don't let the bed bugs bite
 
the sleep part obv, not the last night part, I know how time works
 
G'nite Dave
 
ttfn x
 
@NikiC I agree, I did explore switching to libexif at one point but I never finished my wrapper but it was much smoother to work with than our hacky implementation
 
8:52 PM
@Kalle oh, want to share your prototype?
I only briefly looked into it and saw that some stuff is missing there (I think raw tiff handling?)
 
@Crell Worst part is, if you do some googling you can find he is doing similar abusive behavior at other OSS projects
 
Is he just clueless or malevolent?
 
If he's been told explicitly to stop, and worked around preventions, that's malevolence.
 
@NikiC github.com/KalleZ/pecl-exifkit I have this that made exifkit_thumbnail() work in 1:1 with the exif_thumbnail() function, don't think I committed all the things I did back then
but in all fairness, it wasn't much more than that as I wanted to give the extension a new API at the same time xD
 
cmb
@PeeHaa ah, yes! Understood it in the meantime (took a while :))
@Crell would be too late anyway: github.com/php/php-src/blob/master/.editorconfig :)
 
9:07 PM
Ha!
 
Googling him and viewing some of his posts, he always comes out guns-a-blazing on every issue- or at least the handful I have read.
 
@StatikStasis Guess you found the Fedora one
 
Yeah, that one too. But many on PHP bugs in which cmb has responded numerous times to as well as Niki and Bob.
 
@Tiffany Yay, I managed to render a video about the contributions since last year: drive.google.com/file/d/1QVSL6Rc6nUrwowI5ZQrotSFKkZ9xiNfB/…
(I'll probably delete the video in a few weeks, so download it if you need it :) )
 
@DaveRandom Raging Hangry Software Guy
 
9:10 PM
I can also share some gource configs so that anyone can make their better version ^^
 
@MateKocsis Bloody hell
1GB
 
@cmb So what's the verdict on editorconfig? Commit, strip the whitespace stripper and commit, or punt to the list?
 
@NikiC One factor that might be worth considering for switching to libexif would be that the lib is very actively maintained (as pointed out by @cmb)
 
cmb
@salathe made a good comment regarding potential breaks (relevant trailing whitespace in examples or such). That should be checked out.
 
@StatikStasis /cc @SherifRamadan :-P
 
cmb
9:30 PM
Would anybody know about the status of Joomla, Drupal, Symfony-Demo and MediaWiki wrt. PHP 8? Is there any hope to run Windows PGO training on those apps in the near future? Or do we have to optimize for Wordpress only?
 
Not off hand; if past experience holds, Symfony will be fully PHP 8-compatible by sometime in the RCs. Drupal will be 99% compatible by release, but have some lingering issues in contrib modules for a few months to a year.
 
@cmb How is the binaries going to be built for master and beyond after the kind message from msft?
 
cmb
9:42 PM
@Crell thanks! That wouldn't be that bad. :)
@Kalle I build the binaries on the Windows PECL build machine for now; not a big deal. I'm also trying to update dependency libs and PGO stuff etc., but can't do as much as I like. Also, there are no snapshots; @MarkR offered help with. I shall send a mail to internals about the Windows stuff on the Weekend.
 
@cmb Roger. Did Anatol go total MIA or was he moved to not focus on PHP anymore?
 
cmb
Anatol is working on Linux drivers for quite some time now (don't know details).
 
I am very new to C and I try to understand this function: https://github.com/derickr/timelib/blob/master/parse_iso_intervals.re#L131-L150
Why is the function called "unsigned" and why does it return "timelib_ull" which is "unsigned long long"?
Looking at the function body I would say it also can return negative values, so isn't it a "signed" value?
 
@gharlan you need to understand the binary representation
Let's just go with a 4 bit number (i.e. xxxx)
You can go up to 15
 
@cmb Right now, everything is waiting on the PHPUnit release on Friday
 
9:50 PM
And -1 would be the same than 15
 
It's rather annoying to test PHP 8 right now due to all the match related failures
I hope to expand our community project tests once that happens, because that's basically the only way to test the tracing JIT
Our test suite is not very useful for that unfortunately, because it's mostly code that gets run once :/
 
@Girgias but I do not understand why timelib_get_nr (above the linked function) is returning a timelib_sll/signed value, while actually it only returns positive numbers. And the extension of this function, timelib_get_unsigned_nr, which can also return negative values, has the unsigned naming and return type.
I would expect the opposite.
 
Hello everyone! Have any of you experienced in which some files but not all returns 403 error in Magento 2? (see screenshot) This happened after domain change and updating a theme.
 
@gharlan So in the above function you got a call to strtoll() which takes a char* and will return a signed integer
The unsigned version basically checks the char pointer and sees if theres a '-' character if there is it will multiply the result of the above function (which will be a negative integer) by -1 thus making it positive
therefore unsigned
 

« first day (3581 days earlier)      last day (1353 days later) »