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4:02 PM
@Crell or whichever one amazon and the others are using to provide lambada services.
 
Probably V8.
(I always think of 90s vegetable juice when I talk about that engine...)
 
me too, and then it reminds me I need more vegetables... and that I have several cans of V8 I still need to drink
 
@beberlei can you send me new debug symbols... or how to use old one...
 
@DmitryMiksIr still failing?
 
@beberlei yep but other place
in tracing_span_annotation_create
 
4:13 PM
wtf :)
 
we has... very complicated code base ;) 10years of non-stop legacy :)
 
emai lsent
 
Man, the ctor-void RFC is not doing well. I wonder how much of that is FUD. :-(
 
@Crell one thing we could do better, is have "experienced" people make sure that the proposed voting choices are clear, even if they don't necessarily agree with the RFC. Think the confused voting options were not a good start.
 
I'm happy to offer my services as an editor and parliamentarian. I am very experienced at that. :-)
 
4:22 PM
@Crell Mind having a look at my Saner Numeric string one then? :p
 
link?
 
I'm thinking of having a secondary implementation detail vote
 
Those are always so tricky.
 
@Crell It's changing the content of a Warning for numeric float strings
But it adds a bunch of boiler plate code
 
Boilerplate to user space or core?
 
4:24 PM
Core
Let me link you the specific parts
 
"When strict_types=1 is not set" - should be "When strict_types=0", IMO.
 
I think that's a left over from Andrea's RFC but seems better indeed
 
I see a hundred pages of tests... what's the problem? :-)
 
But I think the reason for that phrasing was that strict_types=0 is the default mode
 
But can also be explicitly specified, which I did once by accident because I am dumb. :-)
"String-to-string comparisons with == etc. perform numeric comparison if only both strings are numeric strings" - "only if" not "if only"
Also, what's == etc?
What is etc in this case?
 
4:29 PM
Non identity comparisons, so <, >, <=, >=
 
Mention those explicitly.
 
cmb
does != get special treatment? ;)
 
Ah yeah theres that one too :p
 
"\is_numeric() is relatively useless as if one accepts leading/trailing white-spaces one must still manually check for trailing white-spaces, this is also true for the opposite" - This sentence is highly clumsy. Alternative:

"is_numeric() is misleading, as it will reject values that a weak-mode parameter check will accept."
"It is notable that while a numeric string may contain leading white-space, only a leading-numeric string may contain trailing white-space. " - This, I think, is the crux of the problem. You can have leading whitespace or trailing whitespace but not both, and a different subset of functions works in each case.
 
@cmb I always forget that PHP also has '<>' like SQL
 
4:35 PM
@Danack anything you are specifically referring to (in the ctor RFC)?
 
The Problem section is crying out for a nice chart that demonstrates how bonkers the status quo is. Right now it's lots of dry words, but a picture that shows that the logic is currently basically random would make it much clearer.
 
cmb
@Girgias TIL :o
 
@cmb Congratz :D
@Crell I discovered some of this insanity after a review comment from Nikita about string offsets...
@Crell Also I'm not sure how the chart should look like
 
"Drop the concept of leading-numeric strings and allow trailing white-spaces for all numeric strings. " - Replace with:

"Unify the various numeric string modes into a single concept: Numeric characters only with both leading and trailing whitespace allowed."
I'll come back to the chart in a moment. :-)
 
No worries, much appreciated the work you're currently doing :p
 
4:38 PM
@moliata someone should have said the voting was going to be confusing, to avoid restarting.
 
Agreed. In general, I find it quite odd that there is no discussion before the RFC and everyone starts replying "I voted no because ..." during the vote.
 
@moliata flashbacks to short_tags
At least it's during the vote and not after
 
@moliata the volume of RFCs is too much for me during discussion honestly, i already invest 2-4 hours every week. Since RFCs usually substantially change during discussion i can't read all of them all the time
 
@beberlei I understand but there are a lot more internals than just you, during the entire 2.5 weeks discussion period Bob and a normal PHP developer (stating his opinion) chimed in to reply.
SO it's really hard to know which parts of the RFC need to be changed, which are okay and which should be removed.
 
@Girgias docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/… - Something like that, more filled in.
And show a before/after of what you're proposing.
 
4:44 PM
...in addition, most of the replies that I did receive were positive. Thus, I was led to believe that most of the internals are okay with the proposal.
 
AAAA So a table
Also does anyone know how '<=>' works with strings?
 
@Girgias Right now there's some duplication in the Technical Background section (two different examples of the string offset cast behavior). The main place I was hoping to see examples was the Problem and Proposal sections. The latter should show how each problem example will be fixed.
 
@TheodoreBrown I think I'll have a look at Larry's idea of using a table
 
👍 That's a good idea.
 
Cause my brain is still hurting
 
4:57 PM
I think with some good tables and tighter bulleted lists you can slash the length of the entire RFC in half.
That should make it a much easier sell.
 
@Crell Working on the table currently
 
speaking of RFCs, is it okay to just copy/paste typed properties RFC ;p. Quite honestly, typed class constants bring the same benefits as those.
 
@moliata not sure what more I can say than i need to be careful with time and cannot review all rfcs before voting. With the attributes RFC i did ask at least 10 voters here and via email for their feedback, especially those i knew might be nay based on past voting
 
@beberlei It's all okay ;), again you're not the only PHP internals member, I'm not directing my loudly expressed thoughts at you.
 
Yeah ... it's pretty important to make sure that at least someone has read the RFC
Which is not at all a given
 
5:36 PM
@Crell @TheodoreBrown I've done one table for the current state: wiki.php.net/rfc/saner-numeric-strings Should I add more with floats numeric string or is this enough?
 
Oh god the color scheme the wiki is giving you is awful...
 
that's for sure but not much I can do about sadly :(
 
@Girgias I dunno... I'm not sure the table makes things much clearer.
 
I think the juxtaposion of current + proposed might make it simpler
But it's just crappy all around >-<
 
An after table that you can compare against would help, yes. But really try to figure out how to fix the colors first because it's unusable as is. :-(
 
5:44 PM
I don't think I can tweak it :/
 
And then the text can be rewritten/simplified around it.
Does the wiki colorize the word "true" everywhere it appears automatically, or only if it appears in code markers?
 
try
<nowiki>...</nowiki>
 
@Crell Code markers
 
Drop the code markers.
 
You can use '' ... '' to make text monospaced*
 
5:48 PM
Ah that's a neat trick too
Not that I can edit it until you've released the lock on the document :p
 
sorry:)
you should be able to edit again now *hopefully*
 
Currently doing it :p
 
> Proposed PHP Version
> PHP 8.0.
Isn't it a bit late for that?
@Danack It might just be me, but it took far, far too long and multiple careful reads through that RFC to be sure what was being proposed. It is not that uncommon, but this one was a particular struggle for me to make sense of even though the proposal is really simple.
 
does "self relocate" mean I pay for relocation?
 
@salathe It's been in discussion for nearly 2 weeks already
I'm just improving the formatting and will send a reminder today/tmr
 
5:59 PM
@Tiffany i would imagine? :/
 
@Crell Done
 
MUCH better.
 
@Tiffany just the job description or did you get an offer from your recent interview?
 
@Girgias I figured we're in alphas already... I guess it's not feature freeze yet so ignore me. :)
 
No worries :p
Feature freeze is August 5th IIRC
 
6:02 PM
@beberlei recruiter contacted me from a job I applied yesterday "I wanted to make sure that you were willing to self relocate to Denver, CO for the opportunity?"
I'm willing to relocate, even possibly pay for part of the relocation, but I would need assistance too... :|
 
6:15 PM
@Tiffany There is exactly zero reason for a tech job to require you to relocate during a pandemic. Doubly so at your own expense.
 
@Crell been looking at jobs at some of the shadier sites, I wouldn't be surprised if they did, and re-reading the job description, it looks like I'd be the sole developer, which I don't want to do again
 
Shady sites are shady.
(So, LinkedIn?)
 
zip recruiter
 
I hate recruiters.
At least for me, they always send jobs not related to what I have in my resume.
 
I get recruiters sending me Drupal contract gigs that require relocating about 2-3 times a month. It only has the 3 things that absolutely rule out my involvement... (Drupal, contracting, and relocation.)
 
6:26 PM
@Crell weren't you involved with Drupal for many years?
 
I was a leading Drupal developer and one of the core leads for many, many years. I was responsible for instigating the Drupal 8 overhaul.
 
In this case I was just applying to any job that seemed relevant last night, that was probably a mistake
 
Huh, never actually used Drupal lol
 
I think for me drupal was like WordPress. Once I saw the codebase I did a U-turn.
Or I briefly fixed something for someone using drupal. I did not use it all that much.
 
6:58 PM
KennethUneve ・ *General Issues ・ #79823
 
anticancer24 dot ru needs on the list.
 
When I started to read the mail from microsoft, I thought that they want to offer help for the project 😃
 
@Girgias At this point I will not recommend anyone use Drupal for anything, ever. Not because of the code, but because the community is so toxic.
 
7:14 PM
@Crell Oh? In what way?
 
static return type: message and stacktrace wrong for Uncaught TypeError ・ *General Issues ・ #79824
 
@MátéKocsis that's kind of interesting....anyone heard any rumours about surrounding circumstances?
 
In short, imagine every negative thing the far right says about the far left. In Drupal, it's actually true. They're a caricature of butthurt closed-minded liberals.

The community and project decided that the project cheating on his wife with his secretary was too-bad-so-sad, but me being in consensual D/s relationships in my private life was so bad that blackmailing me to try and get me to leave and then accusing me of rape to get rid of me was appropriate. (Note: The woman in question is an ex of mine who publicly said that was full of shit. She's autistic and they happily twisted "a
 
@Danack For me, it came from out of the blue :( Hopefully someone will be more informed :)
 
@Crell B I G Y I K E S
 
7:20 PM
@MátéKocsis I would not be 100% surprised if it was part of a bigger decision.....like maybe even "why support something on windows when windows server might go away...."
 
Big Yikes indeed.
 
Seems potentially concerning
 
@Danack Yep, I had a similar feeling; maybe they want to bring the linux subsystem to the fore or something
 
I mean, no sane person would ever deploy something on Windows, but it's an important development system
@Danack Or "PHP is a dead language, why support it? ":P
 
I ran production workloads on IIS / PHP for 10 years. When we started we had a dependence on windows-only extensions and just stuck with it.
 
7:31 PM
Anyone have any big plans for the weekend?
 
7:43 PM
Was thinking of some good old-fashioned sleep
 
ThW
@StatikStasis 70km bike tour :-)
 
@ThW, Enjoy!
For me, Ill spend most of it working on my latest JavaScript (sorry all php enthusiasts for using a rubish language) project using AWS Rekognition to extract some useful data from images
And them parsing them
Which is always really fun! ;)
 
cmb
@NikiC I have not been informed about the reasons, but yes, guess that it (at least PHP on Windows/Azure).
 
Will just wait for The Register to pick it up... "Microsoft inexplicably drops support for most popular server-side scripting language in existence"
 
7:59 PM
I wonder what the answer was should we ask the reason of the move in a reply
 
Sara just sent an email to the original thread, if Microsoft actually thinks PHP is dead
that's a real bummer
 
Embrace. Extend. Extinguish. =P
 
@moliata To which list?
 
@NikiC perhaps they looked at fixing jit bugs and noped out....
 
@MarkR internals mailing list
as well as windows-oriented internals
 
8:05 PM
Ah just a bit slow to update on the NNTP, I see it in email now
 
but hold up, if Microsoft thinks that PHP is dead
 
microsoft ignite conference is in september btw. might get more context then.
 
Dale Hirt is, quote, "the project manager for PHP in Microsoft"
Is he going to get fired :p?
 
free at last, free at last, thank god I'm free at last.
 
I'm not sure I fully understand what MS's contribution is to PHP, I thought that it was mainly paying for CMB to do the Windows development and builds. Is it a larger team?
 
8:16 PM
@MarkR anatol afaik also works for MS on PHP, so thats at already 3 people, i would imagine more, a company of microsoft size a team is at least 4-6 people regardless of what they work on. :)
 
*makes popcorn for the Marco battle on the toBool thread.
 
The battle of Boolingrad
 
8:31 PM
@ThW Sounds like fun!
 
Looks like Sara jumped on it on Reddit to put out the fire before it started
 
Coming off a break; what fire?
 
ThW
Microsoft is dropping its Support for PHP 8
 
Sounds like good news to me.
When can PHP drop support for Windows? PHP 9?
 
Dropping support for windows seems... unhelpful
I could forsee dropping support for certain features though
 
8:44 PM
@MarkR what :O I didn't know they they employ CMB and Anatol and co. But then it sounds even worse if if contributors are lost :(
 
@MátéKocsis My comment should be taken with a gallon of salt. I'm not really sure what the arrangement is. It's a very odd decision though.
 
went to buy a cup of coffee, came back and reddit already has 3 new threads regarding microsoft dropping support
bruh
 
I was just basing that off something I seem to remember from several months ago where (I think) Christopher mentioned something about how much time they were giving him, but I could be wrong about all of that
 
ThW
I don't even have WSL installed.
 
Well, PHP team @ Microsoft is going to work on other projects twitter.com/dalehirt/status/1281300688102801408
 
8:50 PM
It's rather handy. Personally I run 90% of my dev in docker desktop but the file performance sucks.
 
> I'm mostly dealing with the devops aspect, building and testing. I also project manage it.
5 hours ago, by Danack
@Crell imo, a bigger advantage is a sane internal engine, which can be hosted at scale more easily...
quick impression of someone: youtube.com/watch?v=5FjWe31S_0g nsfw lyrics and words on screen.
 
I'm about to merge match expressions. Already merged the commits with fixup. Do you guys do fast-forward merges on the main repo or should I use --no-ff? Is there anything else I should know?
 
fast forward
see git workflow doc on wiki
 
9:05 PM
@beberlei I thought there was a document but couldn't find it, forgot to look in the most obvious place ^^ Thanks!
 
Jpv
Hey guys, question about vagrant.. trying to get vagrant with vccw box for wordpress (it uses virtual box), but can't get it up. note that im running hyper-v with homestead for other laravel projects. Read around that virtual box will not work when hyper-v is active. You guys ever run into this??
 
cmb
@beberlei Anatol doesn't really work on PHP for quite a while (haven't heard of him for months).
 
@Jpv I believe people switch between having hyper-v running and not, to switch between stuff that requires it, and stuff that doesn't.
 
Jpv
@Danack u mean, disable from windows features completely, or not run any hyper-v when using virtual box?
 
9:22 PM
@cmb may i ask if you already know you continue to work on php until 7.4 is EOL?
 
cmb
I don't know yet.
 
i am still a bit confused what all this means :)
 
cmb
I am as well. :)
 
2 weeks from now we'll find out that Z has staged an insurrection and MS's PHP resources have been reallocated to working on PHP++
 
@cmb hm sucks :( hope you know soon
 
9:24 PM
I kid of course, but I hope you get some clarity for yourself at least soon @cmb
 
cmb
Thanks! :)
 
@cmb Can I ask if you currently work on PHP only, or there are other projects/products you have to deal with?
 
Jpv
@Danack yeah it worked!!!... i had to disable hyper-v from windows features to get virtual box running... i hope my laravel homestead apps will work if i just re-enable hyper-v
 
should do...
 
cmb
@MátéKocsis PHP only (not php-src only, though) :)
 
9:59 PM
@Danack what's your stance on lockdown atm? I'm in brizzle 2 wks tomorrow if you fancy some sort of irl thing
maybe go sit on a park bench and drink cheap malt liqour out of a paper bag or something
or skip a step and go straight for the heroin
or coffee
y'know, whatever floats your boat
 
@DaveRandom current status is waiting for the lockdown to be reimposed after it spreads through all the weatherspoons. But i have a park literally a stones throw from my flat: google.com/maps/@51.4534389,-2.6071847,653m/data=!3m1!1e3
you here for work, pleasure or 'cups of tea'?
 
Got a job in Clifton but shouldn't be more than a couple of hours
On the train as well so no need to drive back :-P
 
Hey team, is there a tool that lets you update version field in composer.json from the CLI?
 
vim? :-P
 
I need it in a build process :-D
 
10:13 PM
oh in that case, my place is on the way past....assuming you're going from temple meads.
@zerkms why are you manually updating version fields....they normally come from VCS tags....
 
@Danack they do, but it must be set in composer.json::version as well
 
Idk but I'd sort of expect there to be something that would let you specify an arbitrary path in the schena and a new value for it
 
some other package relies on it
(sentry)
 
@DaveRandom remind me closer to the time, with an time-ish estimate....but yeah, assuming the weathers not shite, Brandon hill would be the place to meet.
 
it reads the version from the root package and uses it when it sends traces to the server
 
10:15 PM
Can you not just write a script for it an bundle in in /bin/?
 
That's what I'm looking for
something that is better than sed
 
I mean it's like 3 lines of PHP
 
@zerkms for the record, I have no real idea what "but it must be set in composer.json::version as well" means, but it sounds like doing the wrong thing.
 
Agreed, but it sounds like a 3rd party package that does it (?)
 
@Danack the original question is: In my build pipeline the version comes from git tag and I need to put that string to composer.json version field, during build. And whether there is a tool already that does just that, eg update-composer-json 1.2.3
 
10:18 PM
I'd probably write a file_get_contents based PHP script, personally
 
I need it in more than one project, so I hoped to have something "default"
 
@Danack probably, idk I'll be getting a taxi but I'll call you then
 
"In my build pipeline the version comes from git tag and I need to put that string to composer.json version field, during build" - I don't get why you need to do it yourself. Either install your package through packagist, or install it from a VCS entry in composer, or just read the git tag directly....
 
@Danack it's a root package, I don't install it
 
You still got num ending 865?
 
10:19 PM
yarp.
 
the package === the application
 
Kewl
 
it looks like jq is the easiest way for that. I hoped there is some secret composer command
 
@zerkms You could just put it in its own repo (or build-utils or whatever)
 
I've used sentry.....I've never had to update a composer.json for it. I'm pretty sure there are other ways to do what you're trying to do, (which sounds like tell sentry what your version of the app is) that don't involve a composer file.
 
10:23 PM
```
$releaseNode = $optionsChildNodes->scalarNode('release')
->info('Release version to be reported to sentry, see https://docs.sentry.io/workflow/releases/?platform=php')
->example('my/application@ff11bb');
$releaseNode->defaultValue(PrettyVersions::getRootPackageVersion()->getPrettyVersion());
```
 
Can't it extract it from git describe or sth?
 
sentry-symfony takes the release automatically from the composer.json by default
 
...
 
I use it exactly to avoid initialising it manually
ok, this dialogue helped me to understand I don't need anything more complex than

```
sentry:
dsn: '%env(SENTRY_DSN)%'
options:
release: '%application.version%'
```
thanks :-)
oops, indentation
 
10:54 PM
opcache.file_cache causes SIGSEGV when custom opcode handlers changed ・ opcache ・ #79825
 
11:43 PM
@TheodoreBrown @Crell so I rewrote it again: wiki.php.net/rfc/saner-numeric-strings dropped the table but hopefully it's now clearer
Also anyone else's eye balls on it are appreciated
 
11:57 PM
Has there been a vote on "sanest" numbers e.g. removing all whitespace completely?
 
Nah
And you can't really do that now
As nothing emits a Notice or Warning for leading whitespace
 
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