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10:00 PM
I'm just thinking through the "if you do X then Y no longer happens" type stuff, and feeling slightly uneasy about it from a DX perspective.
 
$foo = (object)['bar'=>1]
function f()
{
    global $foo;
    unset($foo->bar);
    return 2;
}
$foo->?bar = f();
var_dump($foo->bar);
@IluTov ^
$foo->bar existed before f() was called, but not after
should the result of the call to f() be silently discarded, even though it had side effects?
or whatever, that might not be the right example of what I'm thinking
but the point is, the state of the lhs of the assignment can be changed during the evaluation of the rhs
 
@DaveRandom If you're trying so hard to break the language you don't deserve nice errors :P
 
@DaveRandom The RHS would be evaluated first
 
exactly
but what if the lhs results in that being silently discarded
 
I agree that it's pretty weird to evaluate the RHS if you're not going to assign it
 
10:04 PM
if (check state) {
    var = op();
}
that's how shit works
you can't have a situation where check state is no longer valid after the op
 
@DaveRandom Yeah in that case you'd probably get a "$foo is not defined" error. Which is not terrible, right?
I don't see that happening accidentally.
 
I'm not saying it can't be handled, I'm saying there is no conceivable situation where that is a sane and useful thing to do
or rather, I can't see one
(I may be wrong, I often am)
@NikiC this
 
kill it with fire :P
 
basically, the reason people use && and || instead of and and or
they are not totally useless, but they are so rarely used and so easy to get wrong that it's best not to let people have it at all
 
@NikiC I'm confused now. It's not, the rhs is only evaluated when the object exists. null?->foo = foo(); (foo() is not called)
 
10:07 PM
the same reason we don't sell hellfire missiles in supermarkets, basically
 
I hope I'm not wrong.
 
@DaveRandom Because they're much cheaper to get on Amazon?
 
@IluTov No idea what the implementation does, but that can't work
Violates the VM memory model
 
@MarkR just check a Facebook group that's into that sort of thing
 
You can't fetch some a variable for write, then execute user code, and then write to the variable
 
10:11 PM
@Tiffany Disney fangroups are used as cover for it... just hint that you want some tools from the hunchback of notre dame and wait for a PM - youtube.com/watch?v=U3NoDEu7kpg
 
This is why we have the "LHS dependencies -> RHS -> LHS write" evaluation order
 
in fact @IluTov @NikiC here is my point in a sentence: null propagation is inherently a short-circuiting feature, short circuiting write operations doesn't make sense
that question mark means "if this is null, everything to the right of this is ignored"
 
0000 ASSIGN CV0($foo) null
0001 T2 = JMP_NULL CV0($foo) 0006
0002 INIT_FCALL 0 80 string("bar")
0003 V2 = DO_UCALL
0004 ASSIGN_OBJ CV0($foo) string("bar")
0005 OP_DATA V2
 
which is precisely what ??= does, so if it exists at all it needs to match that behaviour
 
@IluTov what does $foo->bar?->baz = give you?
 
10:14 PM
a headache
 
wiki.php.net/rfc/nullsafe_operator#other_languages should probably also have a column for short circuiting assignment support. I just checked that JS doesn't support it
 
@NikiC I think I only found a handful that do it, Swift is one, and there's one more that I don't remember right now.
@NikiC I'd rather not tell you :P
Yeah the opcodes are invalid :(
 
yay
 
// does this
$foo?->bar = baz();

// mean this
if (isset($foo)) {
    $foo->bar = baz();
}

// ...or this?
$tmp = baz();
if (isset($foo)) {
    $foo->bar = $tmp;
}
@IluTov ^ that's the crux of my question
 
@DaveRandom Well, I would've definitely said the former but that doesn't work with the current implementation. At least not as soon as you start chaining.
Great -.- At least we found this before starting the vote...
 
10:21 PM
well yeh that's the other thing, chaining makes this exponentially (I think?) more complex
@IluTov I would argue that it doesn't read obviously, and there you shouldn't use it
 
Anything to prevent making it read-only in 8.0 and then deciding if there's a reasonable way for 8.1, or just leaving it as-is if not?
 
@MarkR No, except for time.
 
could easily introduce read-only semantics first and then add writability later
 
I can only work on this stuff on the weekends and evenings and feature freeze is incredibly close.
 
but I'm really very convinced that it doesn't make logical sense as an operation
 
10:23 PM
Going read-only would seem to hit something like 95% of the use cases, and skips over all the confusion
 
@IluTov well yes there's this as well, and ftr please don't take what I'm saying as a complaint, I appreciate the work you are putting in to this
 
@DaveRandom Not in the slightest, I'm very thankful you mentioned this.
I would've been very unhappy if the RFC was accepted and this would've been discovered afterwards.
 
I always came at this from the PoV of "I like this C# feature and I want it in PHP", C# has read only semantics, so that's how I think I about it
 
Least you didn't use $this@@for@@chaining :D
 
I'm more frustrated about the situation than anything.
 
10:25 PM
that makes me biased, but also confident that I know what a known-sensible solution looks like
@IluTov indeed, and again that's why I'd always prefer going for the most conservative feature set
you don't have to put the all-singing all-dancing solution in first time, it's much better to do a small thing and wait a while to get the right solution vs doing a big thing and maintaining BC with the wrong solution for 25 years
it's case-by-case, obviously
 
@DaveRandom Yeah... The thing is it all seems so easy when you start out :P
But then things start piling up.
 
@IluTov @Sara did the best thing for this a while ago but annoyingly I can't find it
 
Anyway, I'm off to bed. I'll probably have to postpone the RFC for 8.1. I'll make a final decision tomorrow.
 
(y)
 
@DaveRandom Nullsafe implementation? Yeah I saw that one. Semantics-wise it was the same as Hack I think (no short-circuiting of arguments) which is why the last RFC failed.
 
10:31 PM
hello
 
@IluTov no actually more abstract for "it all seems so easy when you start out" - I think it may be a casualty of her twatter account :-/
 
Software Engineering - The office job where you start off with shiny eyes and end up with a 1000 yard stare.
 
@IluTov Something something Saner numeric string RFC
 
That a popular song out there?
 
10:35 PM
Huh -Wlogical-op found a bunch of errors in the FFI extension
 
more a reflex response to the word "hello"
 
Thanks guys, see you tomorrow.
 
lol
 
although I do love both Lionel Richie and Zooey Deschanel so... draw your own conclusions
 
Lionel Richie old school. 80s I think.
That your era?
 
10:37 PM
Commodores is an American funk and soul band, which was at its peak in the late 1970s through the mid 1980s. The members of the group met as mostly freshmen at Tuskegee Institute (now Tuskegee University) in 1968, and signed with Motown in November 1972, having first caught the public eye opening for the Jackson 5 while on tour. The group's most successful period was in the late 1970s and early 1980s when Lionel Richie was the co-lead singer. The band's biggest hit singles are ballads such as "Easy", "Three Times a Lady", and "Nightshift"; and funky dance hits which include "Brick House", "Fancy...
no I'm a child of the 90s in the north of england so I'm an indie kid
 
I take your indi and raise you pokemon rock youtube.com/watch?v=R_mJT8U3TMY
 
currently still obsessed with bob seger and the silver bullet band anyway
 
I'm still stuck in the '90s
 
although I listened to manics/gold against the soul the other day and my god that is a good album
I'm also hung up on incubus atm, which happens every so often
 
That's real music right there.
 
10:41 PM
well yeh but it's summer so I end up getting drunk and dancing around like a dick to pop music a lot
 
Talking about the commodores. Had to look them up on Spotify to refresh my ear.
Dancing is good. Nothing wrong with forgetting about everything for a bit.
 
bugger that, stick The Promise by Girls Aloud on, down a few cans and you're
also sugababes/round round is a banging tune
 
You go to clubs?
 
I'm 35 :-P
I used to but then I had to be an adult
well, sort of
 
@DaveRandom What age were you when you realised that a decent cup of tea and an early bedtime was more rewarding than being out drinking until 5am?
 
10:48 PM
well that's complicated, I've been smoking weed since I was 15 so... 15 :-P
 
Just weed?
how about mind enhancers.
 
To me Commodore is a brand of computer, not a band or a rank.
 
lol
 
let's put it this way... my 31st birthday was spent in rehab
drugs are bad kids
don't do drugs
 
lol
 
10:50 PM
@Crell yes but I have met you, I thus I know that it is me you are looking for.
:-P
 
You have?
Was it a... random encounter?
 
or a president of a yacht club
 
yes, I used to work at platform, we met in barca
tall scruffy dev
 
So, yes. :-P
Why'd you leave?
(I knew I knew your handle from somewhere...)
 
"personal issues"
 
10:51 PM
nod
 
(I split up with the mother of my child and lost my mind for 6 months)
burned a lot of bridges :-/
 
Tall enough to play basketball
 
shit happens tho
I'm 6'5"
 
kobe
height
 
@DaveRandom So you spent most of your time being high in multiple ways
 
10:53 PM
Ouch.
 
What's your local time?
It's about to be 4pm here. Few more hours left of work.
 
@MarkR If we are going to be honest about it, I have not spent my life as wisely as I could have done
 
@DaveRandom Not alone there, I can relate to the sentiment
 
@DaveRandom no ones perfect.
 
@Crell we spoke for quite a while on the first night in barca 2018, I turned up with Fred because I randomly ran into him on street which was super intimidating because I' d started the week before and was wandering the streets of barcelona with the CEO, and you guys were already at a restaurant in a square with a load of palm trees
we talked about drupal a lot
 
10:57 PM
Ahhh... I have the memory of a goldfish so if we were in a crowd I wouldn't remember a damned thing. :-)
 
ditto, plus I drink so... yeh :-P
 
:-P
 
I didn't cover myself in glory that week
or that whole job, actually
 
Eh, I was rather distracted that week anyway.
 
oh I had a great time, it was brilliant, but that is slightly missing the poinit
I ended that week sat in the bar at the top of the W hotel drinking a 45 euro bottle of wine that I didn't pay for, no complaints :-P
 
11:00 PM
ha!
 
but yeh anyway @SalOrozco I have substance abuse stories that will curl your teeth, but it's not big and it's not clever, you really want to you can search the chat history here and you will find some of it but also be warned that some of it is decidedly nsfw, and you should probably not ever click an imgur link that I post ever
not unless you want to see more of me than you probably bargained for, anyway
 
I'll pass.
 
hahahah
 
missing out
 
11:02 PM
Happy to. :-) I don't even drink.
 
What do you drink Dave
 
I have a yorkshire tea habbit
 
Aug 1 '19 at 11:26, by DaveRandom
@Allenph well, maybe
 
I collect tea when traveling. I have a very well stocked tea cabinet.
 
just a taster
 
11:04 PM
hahaha
Borat 2
 
that's an original borat mankini, which I still had fresh in the packet until a festival last year
 
You have too much fun man.
 
not really, I also have a 9 year old child and a debt that rivals a 3rd world country
:-P
 
credit cards, or mortgage debt
 
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