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00:04
Because people can choose when to put on their "RFC author" hat when they are ready and deal with the messages on internals when they choose to, rather than having it pop up on their email, twitter which means that it's a pain in the arse experience.
Please can you talk to Andrea or Anthony about their experience if you think that it's not a problem.
don't put words in my mouth, I never said there isn't a problem
I'm saying your proposed solution is both useless for dealing with the problem, and a problem in itself.
00:33
can someone send a test email to [email protected]?
I'm not sure if it's gmail/Google Domains not allowing me to send an email to myself where the forwarding email is my gmail, or if I did something incorrect
@Tiffany sent
worked
huzzah \o/
I guess it's gmail/Google Domains then, which I think makes sense, if there would be some kind of loopback issue
00:47
@Paul You can discuss something with someone without contact that person directaly
directly *
@JoséMiranda btw you can press up to edit your previous messages, or there is an edit button hiding somewhere for a few minutes after the post.
01:02
@Danack mouseover message, press the gray button with the down arrow on the far left of the message, click edit
that's how I used to do it for the longest time...
01:24
omfg
how idiotic can Lester be, did anyone see his last reply?
01:56
@Kalle there's not that much point responding to him. Although it's possible that having someone else from the firebird community might step up to volunteer to maintain it, which might make a difference to the decision, I don't think there's any message or action that Lester could make that would affect how the vote goes.
@Kalle I'm hoping it's a case where he spoke before thinking
02:16
OPENSSL PRIVATE KEY is missing – #77787
Wes
Wes
02:35
\o
02:57
@Wes you may be interested in this thing I wrote and thunk a lot about secure.php.net/manual/en/function.escapeshellarg.php#123718
Wes
Wes
damn
i think it's easier if i just use linux lol
> naively strips special characters and replaces them with spaces
i mean.
really.
I sort of get why tbh, the actual solution is complicated and the strip approach is guaranteed safe
basically someone was covering their arse
also the whole thing seems to be generally poorly understood, I've been fucking about cmd for the best part of 20 years and I only just actually fully understood what's going on
I have never seen a clear and concise explanation
Wes
Wes
i've been trying to write multiline commands in batch files for 20 years
do you have a solution for that :B
no, cmd is too dumb for that
Wes
Wes
cmd should totally use json for exchanging data
03:07
or at least, not reliable enough, it's somewhat dependent on the way the child process handles stuff
Wes
Wes
and no, i wasn't serious
you can use ^ as a line continuation character, but the child might not receive any data after the LF
Wes
Wes
yeah, that
I mean it should be pretty obvious that a command line is a text string so you can't pass arbitrary binary data, win32 is further restricted to no control chars except horizontal tab (i.e. it must be a single printable line)
...is still not entirely true but it's a good principle to work with
Wes
Wes
computers confuse me
@DaveRandom 2 weeks pause the orville... i hate that they keep breaking the momentum -__-
03:39
@Wes tbf that is completely on brand for TNG, which is what it is most like stylistically
Wes
Wes
also TNG got a lot of pauses?
 
4 hours later…
08:00
magniloquent speaking in or characterized by a high-flown often bombastic style or manner
08:16
Hi!
`This function was
<emphasis>DEPRECATED</emphasis> in PHP 7.4.0, and <emphasis>REMOVED</emphasis> as of PHP 7.4.0.`
What a twist!
08:37
\o
08:52
@Kalle another ESSAY awaits ...
and it IS waiting for YOU to RESPOND ... IN CAPS ...
"Your objection to the deprecation and removal of interbase has been noted, and will be recorded at vote time. I would ask that discussion about how interbase works or should work, or how it worked twenty years ago, or how it works in Delphi is conducted elsewhere. Thankyou."
would be my response ... or SHUT UP, YOU'RE GIVING ME A HEADACHE ...
09:08
someone teach him the art of concise expression
I've never dug an underground tunnel before, but I think it will probably be easier to dig tunnels under his house and office and find the wires you need to cut ...
09:36
date_add returns invalid time during DST transition – #77788
 
1 hour later…
10:47
@JoeWatkins Last time I heard someone say Delphi (and this is without joking), was when I read a fat book on HTML3, CSS1 and JS1.2 back in the 90s
@Danack I doubt anyone will stand up from the Firebird community, the one that messaged me (Martin) is clearly not an extension developer, which only furthers my belief that it should get out of php-src
Either way, I'm not gonna justify responding to THAT email he just SENT
Copy/Pasted your response in pretty much @JoeWatkins and sent it THANKYOU
Undocumented E_WARNINGs raised in invalid regexps – #77789
11:13
@Kalle you know he won't listen ...
Indeed, but it got me a giggle at least
I can't imagine having to work with him, it would be like a kind of nightmare
He works with his son, son-in-law and wife (Rainbow media)
well they must have developed good coping mechanisms, heavy use of morphine perhaps
Morgnins
11:21
@JoeWatkins I think we need to get together at a pub sometime and talk about this kind of stuff xD
\o
nobody is brave enough to review tsrm changes ...
maybe I invest in some of
then do the review myself ... "my astonishing eyebrows approve this pull request" ...
> You have to download a total of 816 M. This download should take
about 15 hours with your connection.
I miss fiber so much ...
@JoeWatkins lol he replied
11:36
yep, with more rambling
I can only hope it will chill down once 7.3 goes EOL
As for TSRM changes, I think the only people that dares to do such reviews is Dmitry or Anatol
dmitry tends to ping me when changing tsrm, but I know he's busy, and not really interested in zts ... I requested review from anatol, but know that he's only super familiar with the windows side of things ... it would normally be me doing a review on this sort of change, because nixy ...
I knew when we changed tsrm for 7 that some apis were broken, but wanted to sneak in the good stuff, and for some reason nobody wanted to remove TSRMLS_D/C/C junk at the time ... and I've never understood why we support GNUPTH or SGI ST, they are like experiments from 15 years ago and I've never seen a single project use either ...
@Kalle as for the discussion in the german firebird forum you linked, this guy may know how to write some C, but he didn't go through the process annoucing he wanted to take over to maintain, he self compiled the extension on windows to provide it as a download for somebody else to test, didn't make it a pull request to php-src. so rejecting all process and doing their own thing, this is exactly why it should be in pecl
@beberlei totally agreed, even Firebird announced it has a new maintainer without any contact to us, the PHP Development Team, so it makes me want to push removal even harder
@JoeWatkins Yeah we should just get rid of those old things, one API for Windows (WinAPI), One for Unix/Mac and that should be it really
@JoeWatkins wasn't there similar abstraction for DL_OPEN() and family in Zend/ for other exotic systems?
I couldn't even find mention of php in their user documentation section on the website, google finds some old mention of it, but they clearly weren't that bothered before 5 minutes ago ..
potential absence makes the brain go squidgy, apparently ...
11:50
also from the mail it seems there are "accepted segfaults" in the extension that have "well known" workarounds? it seems this community is used to having an axe in their leg and tring to run a marathon this way
@Kalle well bottom line, even if a project does use any of these obscure libraries, POSIX compliant libc required pthreads, and we're relying on it, and when you link against pth, you also link against pthread, so it's utterly pointless as far as I can tell ...
it always confuses me how hard people make everything on themselves
@beberlei don't point out that it's broken, he will start shouting and giving you a history lesson ...
@beberlei maybe this time its also about FORTRAN, not just DELPHI
https://lxr.room11.org/xref/php-src%40master/Zend/zend_portability.h#170

It's still possible to compile PHP without extension support lol
in case not clear, LC is not a C programmer, that's why he asks a lot of stupid questions/says a lot of stupid things ...
11:54
Nono, its not him/he, it is they/them (we) that asks the questions :D
the way he answers he seems to try to hint at knowing this stuff
I mean, I'm not a C programmer either, but I can make things work mostly without asking
I'd be willing to bet a large amount of (your) money, that if you asked him, he would say he used C 20 years ago (and would probably mention some other languages from the past), but it's evident that he isn't a c programmer ...
Well you know, C changed so much since C99!
yeah, it's a totally different ball game now, with all the politics ... :D
it's NOT BROKEN
12:20
I thought about attempting to build the extension, that was until I read: wiki.php.net/internals/windows/libs/firebird
12:36
C:\php-sdk\master\vc15\x64\php-src\x64\Release_TS
$ php -dextension_dir=./ -dextension=php_interbase.dll -m
[PHP Modules]
Core
date
hash
interbase
pcre
Reflection
SPL
standard
13:29
@Kalle I don't actually know in which language talks are going to be
13:51
@ircmaxell well, technically, parsing C in PHP is not a bad idea… the bad ideas is what you do with the parsed output :-D
14:05
@bwoebi hehehe
using CLang's AST as a guide
I wonder though, what exactly are you planning to do with the parsed output? Being able to use static function definitions within PHP?
and generating wrapper functions and types for the declarations?
are we going to able to use the macros?
define "use the macros"
it expands all macros into the rendered C before AST parsing
but I haven't thought about how to use macros back into PHP
there are a lot of macros which rename something, are really "small inline static function which just append one param" or are like a small snippet of code to do some check
14:10
right, and they all need to be resolved prior to AST parsing of the C code
I mean, if there were a library which had macros like the FAST_ZPP API - how would one need to use these within PHP?
@ircmaxell I meant to use them inside PHP - not within the C part, that you've done already :-)
@bwoebi that would be difficult to do in general I think, but I'd start with something like preprocess.io
@ircmaxell yeah, I know it's not easy, though it'd be somewhat stupid to have headers defining a lot of macros and having to either manually do what they do inline, in your code, or redefining them manually
that's one thing which annoyed me with using FFI in c#
I could import the symbols, but only the symbols.
macros are defined as just lists of tokens
and when the first token is a ( it's a callable macro
guys any idea what does "stateless" mean in "stateless functional components" ?
14:15
yeah, makes sense - macros are probably also hard to port, because they technically are not bound to any context and just literal replacements … and I don't know how to solve that. It's just an annoyance I encountered. Perhaps there's no real way, perhaps someone finds an ingenious solution to that issue
I think that's where helper libraries come in, where people hand-port those macros
@ircmaxell that's what I had been doing, but it's annoying
for example, I'd really not want to import the hash table macros into PHP, simply because the language has different semantics, and I'd rather deal with iteration/etc differently than just the macro
@ircmaxell yeah, in PHP that'd be more idiomatically expressed as an inlined walk_hashtable($a, function($bucked) {…});
but for example, #define zend_hash_move_forward(ht) zend_hash_move_forward_ex(ht, &(ht)->nInternalPointer) which is a simple subsitution macro
but even that
things like that could be compiled to functions
but even then...
14:24
@ircmaxell well, that would be already covering like half of the macros
or accessors to the zval_value struct
which are also just compilable to tiny functions actually
god, I'm regretting this so much
:-D
C's grammar is so "simple" that things are re-used all over the place with vastly different meanings
haha yes
declarator
    : pointer direct_declarator     { $$ = [$1, $2]; }
    | direct_declarator             { $$ = [[], $1]; }
    ;

direct_declarator
    : IDENTIFIER                                                                    { $$ = $1; }
    | '(' declarator ')'                                                            { $$ = $2; }
    | direct_declarator '[' ']'
    | direct_declarator '[' '*' ']'
    | direct_declarator '[' STATIC type_qualifier_list assignment_expression ']'
    | direct_declarator '[' STATIC assignment_expression ']'
14:27
` | direct_declarator '[' '*' ']'` what is that syntax even
It's a C99 syntax for "an array of any size"
never seen that, just bare []
yup
but you can also do fun stuff like void foo(size_t n, int bar[n])
that I know
what I think I need to do
is compile to an intermediary representation, then compile that to the AST
(which is sort of what I was doing there with the arrays)
14:46
Hello
15:09
typedef int* foo, bar[];

typedef int (*baz)[];
|-TypedefDecl 0x55948d264180 <test.c:2:1, col:14> col:14 foo 'int *'
| `-PointerType 0x55948d264140 'int *'
|   `-BuiltinType 0x55948d2635f0 'int'
|-TypedefDecl 0x55948d2b67f0 <col:1, col:23> col:19 bar 'int []'
| `-IncompleteArrayType 0x55948d2641d0 'int []'
|   `-BuiltinType 0x55948d2635f0 'int'
`-TypedefDecl 0x55948d2b6920 <line:4:1, col:20> col:15 baz 'int (*)[]'
  `-PointerType 0x55948d2b68c0 'int (*)[]'
    `-ParenType 0x55948d2b6860 'int []' sugar
      `-IncompleteArrayType 0x55948d2641d0 'int []'
TranslationUnitDecl
  declarations: [
    Decl_NamedDecl_TypeDecl_TypedefNameDecl_TypedefDecl
      name: "foo"
      type: Type_PointerType
          parent: Type_BuiltinType
              name: "int"
    Decl_NamedDecl_TypeDecl_TypedefNameDecl_TypedefDecl
      name: "bar"
      type: Type_ArrayType_IncompleteArrayType
          parent: Type_BuiltinType
              name: "int"
    Decl_NamedDecl_TypeDecl_TypedefNameDecl_TypedefDecl
      name: "baz"
      type: Type_PointerType
          parent: Type_ParenType
\o/
cool
hello
what is wrong with apache when it does not make load page
This site can’t be reached timetracker.local’s server IP address could not be found.
Try:

Checking the connection
Checking the proxy, firewall, and DNS configuration
Running Windows Network Diagnostics
ERR_NAME_NOT_RESOLVED
this is what chrome gives me when I go to page
?
@Darius.V nothing's wrong with apache. That's a DNS issue
how can I fix it ?
oh, noticed now that apache does not even start when I start it
so it is probabbly apache problema
now I made apache start but page still does not load and same message
 
2 hours later…
17:10
anyone is familiar with "npx" here ?
 
2 hours later…
18:56
@JoeWatkins so i have a cpu bound problem now, a mathemtical library calculating histograms. the JIT does improve the performance by 200%, but the equivalent c extension is 20 times faster than non-jitted, and 10 times than jitted code ;-)
s/200%/100%
19:21
@beberlei actually compiling the code comes with a lot of overhead, and it's difficult to isolate compilation time and execution time ... what you might do is setup a test in a server environment where upon the second request the code is already compiled, and do your measuring there ...
@JoeWatkins good point
@JoeWatkins i give up on beenchmarking, sucks ;)
we don't really expect jit'd code to be as fast as the equivalent C whatever, so we're not really looking for that, at least at the moment ... you have to consider that in C you are working directly with system types with no refcounting going on, and in jit'd code it still must work with zvals, maintain refcounts, frame pointers, it has a different calling convention to c ... these differences add up to degrade the perf of jit'd code ...
yeah i know
this is partly the reason why anthony's php-compiler project shows performance better than the dynasm-jit branch, precisely because anthony's project is working with native system types, it avoids lots of relative loads, lea's (and other such instructions, mov's etc) aren't expensive instructions, but when you have to do 1*each variable references in a scope, they all add up, not just time wise, but complexity, and as a side effect cache misses may also be increased ...
19:41
the jit will introduce sooo much more complexity with regard to code optimizations and finding out performance properties of applications
@ircmaxell actually this really was the case. TUrns out hosts file was wrong - IP should be in the left, but I made it in the right. Windows should give error on making wrong hosts file.
@beberlei yeah, but we will hopefully have a year to write the tooling necessary to help ... which is all I really wanted since it was proposed for inclusion ... it would be disastrous if the JIT were in 7.4, but with time all is going to be okay, at the moment, nobody except dmitry understands it fully, a few of us have varying degrees of knowledge that may be useful for writing the tools, but in a year and three months, at least the same number of people that are able to push zend forward
will be able to do so in the same way ...
even dmitry doesn't know everything, he too is standing upon the work of others, there are things he wants to do that he doesn't know how to just yet, like arm support ...
i voted 8.0+, 7.4- myself, primarily because I don't see the tracing issue being solved in this short time frame
I started to write a library for tracing ... I've come to think that this is the only way forward really, when we move from a vm to executing on the cpu, we have to do what other languages do that execute on the cpu, and that is using lower level features than callbacks at the zend level and things like that ...
I don't know how to make it fit every use case, but I intend to keep working on it over the next year ... I haven't made a lot of noise about it just yet, because it's not finished ... but it probably is the only viable route forward - that's to say working at layers below zend down to and including working with machine code directly ...
20:03
@JoeWatkins i doubt i can möigrate my product to this approach though, at least that wuld constitute starting from 0, which would be a huge investment to make
it may be work that you must undertake, from what I know of your requirements, there's no technical reason you cannot achieve what you can achieve today from an external process using established apis like ptrace ...
it's just a lot more complex, but in time, I'll have hidden that complexity as much as possible in the library itself ...
also worth mentioning that the external process may be a thread within a php process, although I haven't tried this yet, an extension may link to the library and run the profiler loop in a thread ...
but there are some operational problems with ptrace based approach, because our customers are much less likely to let us run a process with root in their environment.
hm; I can't reach php.net. is this an error on my side or is it down?
@kuh-chan reachable for me, though slower than usual
www.php.net refused to connect.
@beberlei well if that's what is necessary, that's what is necessary ... it's not so strange to run services as root anyway, which would probably be the best thing to do (run as a service daemon) ...
if I were you, I would start thinking about how to sell it, there are advantages, pronounced advantages to using the ptrace way ... for example, you need not burden every single process with the overhead of a profiler, but only 1 (or more, but not all of them is necessary), which in production will make a big difference ...
the agent, the thing you load in the php process is going to be a lot simpler
the underlying framework will be maintained by external people (me and others) in the open ...
you may enable and disable profiling entirely without restarting any public facing processes ...
20:20
@kuh-chan sometimes happens to me, I think someone said it's to do with the host in your region.
it just takes some thought to sell it to the client ...
Wait, looks like they're trying to switch over to HTTPS on www?
hmm, maybe http:// works, https:// doesn't
I'm getting an SSL protocol error
I just typed php.net in chrome on my phone so either chrome defaulted to HTTPS and I got that error or maybe they're trying to switch www over HTTPS
It feels pretty weird to look at the posting for my old job, having been there ten years. It's like outside looking in, when I've been inside looking out for so long.
@JoeWatkins thanks, fixed it :D
@Tiffany shouldn't be chrome's fault as all my browsers are doing this. but I didn't see anything on the webmaster list
20:28
Huh, it won't resolve on my phone.
secure.php.net works, maybe derick is working on the mirror changes
@JoeWatkins i dont know, our rewrite of the extension for PHP 7 put is down to 2-10% overhead even when running on all requests in several thousand requests / minute sites. i am sure ptrace can lower it, but customers are already fine with the overhead vs benefit trade-off right now :-)
this is not the xhprof profiling though, but the tracing/monitoring profiler part
20:58
@JoeWatkins I am looking at that ;)
21:30
@JoeWatkins php.net yup
is 4:30 PM / 16:30 too late for a cup of English breakfast?
21:58
didn't know that the results of conditions are getting cached: 3v4l.org/LplQh is this defined behaviour? the docs don't say anything about this. (or not on pages where I'd expect it.)
> 10-$i++||$i=0||--$j
22:15
@kuh-chan you code is equivalent to 3v4l.org/VPNnk I think after reading the assignment rules.
22:42
Makes sense. But even then - shouldn't $i and $j change their values?
23:08
@kuh-chan turns out php is shit juggling at it's max.
+ 3v4l.org/Aa6cb - "second partbool(true)"
@Danack great, got another email from one of the germans lol
not gonna bother replying anymore
you should add it to your collection of 'fan mail' that open source maintainers get...
The worst mail I've gotten was from Crowdin or something, you know one of the translation platforms. That saw I registered with a @php.net mail and kept spamming me with offers for migrating PHP to use their shit
@ircmaxell (or anyone) any idea if increment operators on boolean types was deliberately chosen to not give a strict error, or is it an oversight?
@Kalle tbh the whole conversation is dumb......it might have been the case in the past that getting extensions into apt/yum repos was difficult, and so there was some value in having them distributed as part of core, but these days it's a lot easier. And as having extensions in separate repos allows for separate release cycles than php core.....even if there wasn't a case for deliberately removing it, having it outside of core would still be better for people who use it.
23:23
Yeah I totally agree with that, which is also one of my main motivators for pushing it out. I generally want to look at cleaning up some of the extensions we have in the Core overall. Making ext/hash always available was a first step in that direction
@Danack imgur.com/a/LsiEUm1 here is the mail, like fair they browse their database but how sick do you have to dare actually message that person like that. It is an insanely rude behavior where I grew up and live
Continuing on with extensions. I would like to merge ext/ctype into ext/standard. It does not make sense that is its own extension really, or at least the case for it is low imo
@Kalle that's not related to the ibase extension is it though?......just someone marketing to their someone who has signed up to their service.....although I wouldn't word an email to a customer like that, sending an personal email to someone using a service isn't that out of order to me.
@Danack Nah it was years back, but I feel its kinda out of order as I feel targeted due to my email. Anyway...!
Other extensions thoughts:
- Cleanup the massive XML extensions we have
- Why is there still pspell when we have enchant
- Remove this nonsense "flavor" behavior from pdo_dblib
- Why is calendar not apart of date?
- gmp vs bcmath (which have our own self patched bundled lib)
23:40
For the xml extensions - would it make sense to expose the raw library functions for libxml/whichever library is used, and then do all of the rest of the code in userland? Handling that many strings in C seems scary.
Yeah I think that makes a lot more sense, supply the tools for writing the parsers and leave it at that. I think simplexml is a nice utility to have as an all-around solution
23:52
Looking at this pdo_dblib flavor stuff, there is a lot of dead code there it seems -.-
@Kalle missing context, do you have a link to something that will explain what "flavour" means there?
pdo_dblib is a thing I know not-nothing about, although I have only really read the code to debug userland issues rather than actually dicking about with it
@DaveRandom "Flavor" means that pdo_dblib can be compiled with two libaries on Windows essentially. FreeTDS and dblib.

dblib is an old and deprecated version of Microsoft's library for talking to MSSQL, however the pdo_dblib extension essentially is 2 modules in one if enabled. pdo_dblib and pdo_mssql, as in it registers 2 extensions with the same config.w32 file and have a lot of #ifs around to make it happen
it's also a thing that I am totally up for improving because SQL Server is a pretty decent platform and PHP's support for it is really lacking
One of the main reasons for removing ext/mssql back in the day was its heavy dependency on dblib and poor FreeTDS support
ugh, who is using dblib on windows? :-/
23:58
@DaveRandom have you checked what Microsoft have done recently? I thought they had made their own open source extension for it - but might be wrong.
yes, sqlsrv, but it's (unless something has changed) for windows hosts only
Yeah its Windows hosts only and heavily written in C++
> PHP 7.1.x, 7.2.x (7.2.0 and up on Unix, 7.2.1 and up on Windows), or 7.3.x

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