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4:25 AM
hi
 
5:21 AM
Online Documentation at eio_chmod and eio_chbrp has typo – #78670
 
6:17 AM
Morning all
 
cmb
 
cmb
o/
 
\o
 
7:15 AM
/waves
Always these \o/ chains... :-D
 
should anything related to ffi be excluded from our security policy ?
well, in a sense it is, you have to explicitly load the code ... but I wonder if the policy should be explicit in it's exclusion of ffi anyway ...
 
7:34 AM
+1
 
7:48 AM
can I ask a JS question here? Seems wrong but JS channel seems dead..
 
8:00 AM
exoteric suitable to be imparted to the public
 
8:17 AM
@James You can try - "Don't ask to ask, just ask" is still in effect
 
cmb
@JoeWatkins, I think we should update https://wiki.php.net/security in this regard.
Should be discussed on internals@, though.
 
cmb
8:34 AM
ta
 
8:48 AM
Hey from London :)
 
@ircmaxell heyo :D
 
9:24 AM
Hi. Sorry as I'm spamming a few rooms with this question.
Mob programming. There is (afaik) any evidence to show it is "better" than pairing (what ever better means).
My team have started to mob but I'd like to add some measures so we can more scientifically conclude where it is good/not so good. I'm wondering if any one has any advice about measuring. Obviously I'd love to be able conclude after a month but I appreciate it is unlikely. However, if any one has any advice on how we could measure or what to measure, I'd love to hear.
 
@ircmaxell Oh what are you doing in London? :o
@cmb erf should have looked there first, thanks anyway :)
 
cmb
9:45 AM
@Girgias, np
 
10:03 AM
.... wtf is 'mob programming'. Is that where you get a mob of kangaroos (yes that is the collective noun) to do your programming for you?
 
Wow... so many rooms have no idea.. I honestly feel I'm ahead of the curve :D
Pair = 2. Mob is > 2
 
sounds like a terrible idea.
 
whatever you did to measure performance before.. do you do sprints? do you have a mean number of points your team does per sprint? it doesn't really matter what you are trying. assuming you already measure something before the change, you should keep using the same metrics
also yes, it sounds like a waste of time TBH
 
@Dave hard to objectively measure, but mostly if there are people who only say things which others already said
 
so more than two people working on a discrete task, ie, the exact same lines of code ?
how does that work ? in fact, how does having two people working on the same code work ?
 
10:13 AM
@JoeWatkins in front of a single monitor, yes
 
oh
that does not sound productive ...
 
(or remotely via voice chat and screen sharing or such)
 
even if you have your own screen ...
 
@JoeWatkins it depends
for most things you don't need it
 
don't you spend a lot of time explaining things that otherwise would be internalised only?
that seems to be a waste of time on it's face, to verbalise the thought process more than is necessary, and it seems necessary to share that process with another human ...
 
10:17 AM
@bwoebi yes, sadly, I think you're right :)
 
@JoeWatkins I mean, I wouldn't have multiple people in front of a screen for a longer debug session (unless I specifically need help) - but sometimes, if you write critical code (wiring things together, security sensitive code, changing things directly on production), then it's good to have more eye pairs
 
I'm not exactly sure what we are discussing ... I can't imagine how this works, collaboratively writing in this sense doesn't seem to make sense to me, I must be misunderstanding something ... I understand collaborating during the design process for a thing, but when it comes to actually writing it down, why does that need more than one brain ?
 
and yes, then you have to share your thoughts, but that's fine
 
ha ha, yes, it seems counter intuitive right @JoeWatkins
But, we tried it - with some sceptics in the team
 
but you seem to be combining the design process and the implementation process together ... that's too jarring
 
10:19 AM
And everyone was amazed how, in some situations, how powerful it was
Ah, no...
Sorry, that is not what I meant to convey
 
@JoeWatkins and tbh ... if there are people who are less experienced and shall write their own code, it saves a ton of time instead of having them always try&error&fix back and forth
 
The design process can be mobbed on...
It should never (IMO) be done by designers, thrown over to devs etc . Bleugh
 
and even with experienced people, you may still spot errors
 
However, it shouldn't be forced to all happen at once
 
I'm not talking about ui design
 
10:20 AM
So, mob on design, split up mob and designer fine tunes, a little more ux research etc
You mean ux research?
 
@Dave no we were talking code
actual code, not ui/ux design etc.
 
Oh I'm sorry
I totally missed the point
Yes, design can happen as the mob. It's great as it shows what is in each others mind. It helps reduce skill gaps. Sharing the knowledge is a good thing right?
It could be, mob and work (at same time) or not. The mob (those involved) should decide what is right for them
 
well that's kind of the point of teams isn't it ... why do we call that mob programming, isn't that just working as part of a team ?
 
Yes and no. The mob means they all do it. As opposed to a team of 6, 2 people come up with a design, 2 work on features, 2 bug features. A few days later, 3 implement the design whilst the others do what ever

The mob (all 6) would be team come up with design. Team then implement design. (maybe bug fix in between)
 
who is running teams like that ?
 
10:26 AM
Who? We are where we work but, although I'm tech lead, I'm not top down or servant leadership. As such, team typically decide what works best for them as they're the best to know
So maybe during planning, we ask, would we mob this piece of work (or not). And decide what is best tool
 
urm ...
you said some strange things, I doubt you really want my opinion on them ...
anyway, you might have more luck asking how other teams work, rather than using the term "mob" ... because that's essentially what you're interested in, you're just calling it by a name that most people won't recognize ...
 
@JoeWatkins its the accepted term for a concept that some teams apply already
i guess its better to find a forum where people have experience though
 
have you got a concise description of it ?
 
any server knowledgeable person here?
I have an issue
 
@JoeWatkins there is a wikipedia page: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mob_programming
 
10:35 AM
> Mob programming is a software development approach where the whole team works on the same thing, at the same time, in the same space, and at the same computer.
that's what someone said, and I thought it sounded so crazy, it can't possibly be that ...
I have no idea how that would work ... it looks like a massive waste of time to me ...
 
when I'm tried to compress files using CLI, server is mess up my all folders and file have now .gz extension like wp-config.php.gz, wp-login.php.gz
Any one have idea how to removed this extension using command ?
 
whatever the original question was about measuring performance, and you could just ask about that in general terms and get more feedack, I would suppose ...
 
@Dhruv your question makes little sense but you can literally do what you ask by executing find -type f -name \*.gz -exec rename .gz '' {} \;
 
10:50 AM
@Sjon I have tried this but how can I do that globally ? this command work but need to select folder name it is possible to run command over publicly ?
 
@JoeWatkins actually I want your thougths :)
However, mob programming is the name? :/
 
@Dhruv you can pass any path you want to that command. See man find
 
@JoeWatkins Quality improves at the expense of velocity.
I've done quite a bit of pair programming, and that's definitely true at the scale of 2 people in the "mob".
 
@Sjon Thanks issue solved
 
cmb
!!uptime
 
10:56 AM
compared to what ? it's hard to believe that any team has found the most efficient way of ensuring quality is by piping the abstract thought process of software development through extremely inefficient (omni-directional) verbal communication channels ...
 
╔═══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════╗
║ [10 hours, 13 minutes and 14 seconds] without an accident ║
║                since [2019-10-14 00:42:46]                ║
╚═══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════╝
 
That is the problem @JoeWatkins :) But this is why I want to try (someohow) to see if we can conclude. If we can mob for a month or 2 (only mob), what could we have measured to compare against (for example) pairing
 
@JoeWatkins Formal studies have measured number of bugs per thousand lines of code, IIRC.
 
I mean compared to what though, I don't understand that statement ...
 
@JoeWatkins Compared to teams of the same size working on their own.
 
10:59 AM
if you measure against conventional quality assurance methods, such as review for example, what you are measuring, at least in part is the inefficiencies of the method being compared, and I can't see how you can quantify that so that you can extrapolate efficiency of the method being tested ...
 
In my anecdotal experience, the maintainability of the code improves significantly because if there is a line of code that is not obvious it will get rewritten or documented. Additionally, it's an excellent way to teach other team members. If the team is working as intended, of course.
 
@Girgias Out here for work
 
the weather is shaking my office ... thunder ...
@Dave probably I would consider pairing, where a pair is a mob of two, but the same methodology is used, a kind of mob programming, and so compare that to another conventional form if you could ... but I don't really see how you can do this objectively, you have to be able to do impossible calculations to determine if it's worth restructuring your team, or somehow improving the current methodology ...
 
11:21 AM
@JoeWatkins I would argue piping through those communication channels forces intentional decisions and understanding. Those two I have found are more troubling to software projects than quantity or quality of code ..
 
I don't object to collaboration during some parts of the process, in case not clear ... I'm not advocating some sort of lone wolf policy ...
imo the decisions you are talking about should be taken before anyone is sitting down to write an implementation
collaborate during that process, for sure, collaborate really hard, but when it comes time to actually write code, the verbalising should be done already ...
 
I have totally seen that work well
But I have also seen pair programming work really really well. My last company each dev paired with each other dev on the group at least 1-2 hours per week (their choice, not a forced thing)
 
12:00 PM
@kelunik you pang?
 
i like to use mob programming when working on high impact code changes that everyone should know about, like changing an approach in the underlying framework affecting everyone, or introducing / refactoring a datastructure that nearly everynoe will be working with
but the amount of time we use it is <1% of the time, pair programming is much more frequent, and code reviews is the general modus operandi
 
file_get_contents returns NULL instead of FALSE – #78672
 
@beberlei that resonates with my experience. Haven't done "formal mob", but have done "let's all gather around a whiteboard" and when something interesting comes out someone there may make a proof-of-concept code or something like that
 
12:20 PM
Morning
 
Thanks again @JoeWatkins :)
 
@Dave how much have you dug into the "quantifying of team performance" subject?
 
one can quantify team performance?
 
@Gordon hence why I asked that statement ;)
 
Morning / Afternoon all.
 
12:54 PM
o/
And BitBucket says no.
 
Morning indeed o/ Yup... cannot commit, time for coffee.
 
1:29 PM
Wow, Spain is really trying to get a civil war, isn't it...
 
Jailing your political opponents is always a winning move I hear
 
@JoeWatkins For the short-term, I have 1+ object per span (e.g. function call). I have determined that destructors are called in more cases than the existing code supports, so I'd like to entertain using the object destructor to close the span. To do this accurately, I'd need to inject that object into the local symbol table. Do you happen to know when the function's local symbol table is created, and the earliest point in the opcode I can do that?
 
bUt ThEy BrOkE tHe LaW!! <- strange to see so much support for the move from spainiards on reddit
 
@NikiC My $0.02 on exit via throw: yes, please. However, as exiting is not an exception nor even an "error" in some general sense, it does not make sense to be able to catch it. It's just that we re-use the throwing infrastructure internally. It should not get exposed. That's what I think.
 
1:40 PM
What about adding an ExitException which does the same thing as exit at the top level (not an error if uncaught, just cleanly exists), but has an internal flag if it's catchable or not. So exit() throws an uncatchable ExitException, but you can also throw your own ExitException which is catchable (but if uncaught is a clean exit)
 
@JoeWatkins maybe thats the point.
 
cmb
@ircmaxell, problem is where to put it in the hierarchy, so that existing code catching Throwable doesn't catch it for BC reasons.
well, BC wouldn't be an issue if it's done like you suggest :)
proper order: think, write :)
 
Catching it seems fine, IMO it needs some guarentee it's re-thrown, a sort of pass-though catch
 
@ircmaxell I need to re-read your doc, maybe I can find some time tonight or tomorrow at latest :_)
 
It's not an exceptional circumstance. Why catch it for any reason at all?
 
1:50 PM
Closing resources / handles etc
 
That's one of the points of moving it to an exception: the destructors will call in more circumstances.
 
and if everything was an object, that'd be great.
 
That's true, I suppose.
But I see finally used, not catch. I think this is a critical distinction.
 
@Kalle I did some tweeks around voting and nominations and such, but yeah
@MarkR I can see cases where you'd want to catch it. For example, an AMP like use-case where you have a single process handling many connections. If one piece of lib code terminates, you may want to keep the server up...
 
Wrong results for DateTime->modify() with milliseconds – #78673
 
1:57 PM
@cmb yeah, that's why that weird behavior...
 
Inspired by @ircmaxell suggestion to try with structs I've started with some research on structs in other programming languages and can see this could be the lacking functionality for PHP when talking about functional programming.
I've started with an analysis of how it is in other languages and started shaping a concept of structs for PHP.
Therefore I came to some syntax which I think is highly possible to introduce
struct Salary {
    int $salary = 1000, $insurance = 50, $allowance = 50;
}
struct Employee {
	string $firstName, $lastName;
	Salary $salary = Salary { 1200, 0, 0 };
	bool $fullTime = true;
}
function Employee(
    string $firstName,
    string $lastName,
    Salary $salary = Salary { 1200, 0, 0 },
    bool $fullTime = true
): Employee {
    return Employee {
        firstName = $firstName,
        lastName = $lastName,
        salary = $salary,
        fullTime = $fullTime,
    };
}
$ross = Employee("Ross", "Bing");
This is a declaration of two structs Salary and Employee and custom initializer as a normal function which does the initialization using values and curly braces.
Does that make sense to you?
One implication appears when declaring in namespace, then a proper use struct [namespace]/[name]; would be required
Although I don't know if initializing struct field default values would be possible but I believe for scalar types (not expressions which could change global state) could be possible to achieve.
That's why there is a Salary $salary = Salary { 1200, 0, 0 }; field in Employee declaration
In this concept order of fields in struct is significant that's why it is possible to initialize by values with comma separated list without field names.
In this concept struct values would be pass-by-value as in other languages, not pass-by-reference like objects.
 
your implementation of structs looks like it should be pattern-matchable
 
I was even thinking of casting, given struct like struct Person { string $firstName, $lastName } it could be possible to cast Employee to Person
$person = (Person) Employee("Ross", "Bing");
echo $person->firstName; // prints "Ross"
echo $person->lastName; // prints "Bing"
@bwoebi is it good or bad?
 
I'm missing a possibility to name the args
 
This could be done cause of order of fields is significant and first and only two fields of Person have same types
 
2:09 PM
for things like Point { x, y } names are not necessary
ah you can already
nevermind
 
@bwoebi in above example in Employee function there is a use of initializer with field names
 
yeah, nevermind :-D
 
@bwoebi what do you think? is it worth going further?
 
what's the dereference syntax you have in mind? array-like ["member"] (indicating the cow-status?) or rather object ->member like
 
This could complete functional programming, right?
@bwoebi rather like objects, cause I wanna use as much as possible shaping this implementation using classes
Was thinking of dereferencing by dimension like arrays cause fields position cannot be changed, like echo $person[0]; but I dunno if that's a good idea in general.
 
2:13 PM
@brzuchal well, I do not want to have to think "this is mutable" vs. "this is cow"
 
Like an additional way
 
@brzuchal well, you have that short-syntax for constructing, so position cannot be changed anyway
@brzuchal [0] has the adavantage of being directly destructurable via list()
 
Using dot is no go, I thought that arrow could be enough
@bwoebi Yes, I had that in mind
I can't use => nor . as in other languages
I could only use a single : but that would look weird and could be confusing echo $person:firstName;
Nothing else on my keyboard
An arrow with tilde ~> could be hard to write in french keyboard cause ~ requires a complex combination of 3 key strokes
@bwoebi a struct fields could by member like not cow, only the whole struct value maybe could be cow, how is that?
Would it be confusing?
Ahh no it cannot, cause when assigning $salary = $person->salary it would be a copy
But in general the whole thing is impressive, astonishing or what? Weird only?
 
2:29 PM
@ircmaxell My biggest worry is just that its all in one go, as it changes many parts it may lead to a mess on internals before it can go to a vote, but I know most of it all works together as a unit
 
@bwoebi if your cows are mutable, you are Farming It Wrong™
 
@DaveRandom what do you think of this?
 
> ## Why one big proposal, why not split it apart?

> Over the years, a number of attempts to formalize or change parts of the subjects in this proposal have been made. Few have been successful to date.

> My (Anthony's) take on this is that it is at least partially because all of these topics are very interconnected and as such it is hard to pass meaningful change to one part without addressing other parts first. This chicken-and-egg problem is challenging for non-trivial reform. Hence why this is a large proposal.
@brzuchal o_O that's awesome!
 
Thanks @ircmaxell
 
@ircmaxell Yeah I agree with that, I just hope it won't go down that usual route of internals
 
2:38 PM
PHP internals loves nothing more than arguing about PHP internals... far more than they enjoy arguing about PHP :P
 
@Kalle that's what I'm thinking about posting to internals. That and:
> The goal is not to get a document where every single person agrees to every single part (there are parts of this proposal I do not 100% agree with myself). This proposal aims to be a best-compromise that hopefully we all can eventually get behind to help move past some of the difficulties this project has historically (and currently) suffers.
@brzuchal this I think is the critical aspect to it
 
@brzuchal dunno what you are talking about tbh, ref? #lazyweb
 
Yes, that's it. I'm on mobile now. It's hard to ref in that mode.
@ircmaxell yeah, that's the main difference between struct VS. classes
I was also thinking about anonymous struct literal whis can be used as a hash with typed fields.
Also the casting feature could allow for loose coupling between different domains. If that sentence makes sense :/
 
@brzuchal I would make struct comparison happen by value then, not by identity (if the fields all match, ordering excluded, it matches). So an anonymous struct could pass a named struct's type declaration to a method
then you wouldn't need a cast
 
2:53 PM
@ircmaxell How was your flight?
 
@StatikStasis good :) London is nice :)
 
@ircmaxell yes, good point I had some doubts about it but feel like it could be a good idea
 
@brzuchal I'm not sure there to be honest, could be a ton of edge cases that are challenging... But seems like something worth exploring
but just want to say, looks awesome :D
 
It could be used to return value and return type hint could pass it through as the right type as well, right?
 
@brzuchal can you elaborate?
 
2:56 PM
@ircmaxell okay, I'm gonna go further with exploring it if there is one more interest in this room ;p
 
I am interested to see how something like this would be implemented, if that counts :-P
 
@brzuchal so am I understanding correctly, your current approach is to rely on a same-named function, which defines names for an un-named list of args and returns the struct.. how feasible is that, without autoloading of functions?
 
@ircmaxell I dunno if that makes sense but if in Employee function in previous examples it would return { first Name = "Ross",...}; this could be casted by engine to Employee struct type
 
@brzuchal what are your rules for casting?
 
@Stephen a function of the same name was just an example how initializer can be implemented using this what PHP already has, cause otherwise is struct would have an initializer defined in struct declaration it would need to use parentheses which conflicts with current state - functions syntax
@ircmaxell the same order of types or the same field names and types - I haven't thought of it much more yet
 
3:06 PM
o/
 
Oh and one more feature I forgot to mention is that it could be possible to put use Salary; in Employee instead of salary field which will import Salary field declarations into Employee.
Like in traits. So it would be possible to compose complex structure types using other smaller struct.
Does this make sense?
 
@brzuchal I am interested in the concept, not confident it would get through parliament but I'd like it
 
Go Lang allows to compose like so, they called it fields promotion if field names are non-conflicting
@DaveRandom ok that's enough to start with it
I'm asking because I wanna make sure if I go with that I'll have someones axes, bows and swords :)
 
@brzuchal something I'm not quite sure I get it yet about this; would it be mutable?
 
@Ekin that's a good question and I already have an answer for you. Struct is gonna be mutable but immutable when declared as final or with only some fields immutable when they're declared with final. Does that satisfy and make sense?
 
3:13 PM
yeah, my second question was going to be whether/how would I be able to make it immutable at will
 
Struct don't have inheritance so the final can be used for immutability. And if that's no go then I can think of different keyword
@Ekin there is one implication of final cause making copies of final struct doesn't make any sense
 
@brzuchal I can offer you a joke gun with a flag that says "bang!" on it, certainly
 
It could be catched by interpreter and error thrown
 
maybe one of the light-up minecraft plastic swords
 
;)
 
3:17 PM
I can find some sticks shaped like guns probably as well
 
I would think constant is rather a marker for immutability rather than final
 
One thing I can ensure that this is gonna be well thought feature proposal with partial implementation at least
I'm gonna invest my time on it
 
@brzuchal given the existing use of final, personally I'd aim for a different keyword from the start.
especially as there have been discussions about immutable classes and properties in the last year or so
immutable struct ??
 
@Stephen yeah I remember that, had an RFC with implementation of that
 
I don't remember what keyword(s) the class discussion centered around
 
3:24 PM
@Stephen that is also considered option
 
@brzuchal I remember someone suggesting (in reference to DateTimeImmutable I think) that the default should be Immutable, and you should opt in via the mutable keyword. It's a shorter keyword, but I think behaviour that's the opposite of everything else in the language would be confusing.
 
In D lang there is a mutable keyword but don't remember now if by default struct are immutable there
 
in rust it is
iirc you use mut for mutable
 
I'm not convinced about immutable structs
that's not how they work
structs are blobs of memory with a defined structure of subdivisions, that's it
like you can't have an immutable integer
if you want to make something immutable you should use a class - and if it's immutable then there's no functional difference between by-val and by-ref semantics
imho, ymmv, bdsm, gmbh, etc etc
 
3:48 PM
bdsm?
 
maybe later, I'm working atm
 
Truth. It's hard to reach the keyboard when your partner has cuffed you to the chair.
 
depends how well endowed you are, tbf
 
@DaveRandom also how many inspector gadget genes you've got
 
genes/jeans interchangeable in that context
 
3:56 PM
@DaveRandom Need your help with parsing SRV records @ LibDNS, because I really want to find my Philips Hue bridge via mDNS. Already wasted three evenings, because my firewall blocked the incoming responses while Wireshark showed them just fine. Now I've hit that issue I commented on inside LibDNS.
 
ahh kk I will take a look this eve
SRV is relatively uncomplicated
although iirc libdns is a little over enthusastic about validation of names, and srv uses "invalid" names
I'll poke at it later
 
@brzuchal is order necessary?
 
I don't even care about the record data, but currently the whole message fails to parse, because 'name' is not a valid type number due to the OR.
 
@kelunik what's the correct type then?
in fact I can't think about this now, I'll look in ~3hrs
 
@DaveRandom thanks, later o/
 
4:04 PM
@kelunik have you got a pcap with some of the messages that failed to parse in?
or a hex dump of the packet payload or whatever
 
@DaveRandom Sure, I can attach that to the issue.
 
winner
 
4:50 PM
anyone know a good GDPR TLDR I can give/send to a client? (his site only collects emails for login/opt-in subs, and cookies for login - we don't even have names for the customers)
 
5:04 PM
@Kalle Ping about github.com/php/php-src/pull/4806 :)
 
@Stephen Do you mean a third party contract gdpr.eu/data-processing-agreement or end user privacy agreement?
 
@user3655829 I mean my client, in the US, who runs a website, with EU customers, wants to know his responsibilities re: GDPR, because like anything besides a brochure site, it requires cookies and collects (admittedly not much) data from users.
 
Then the link will be ok. Read it and change the wrong parts and you will be fine. It doesnt have to be that long.
mostly it will be the concrete things you have to change even if you use a generator.
 
5:24 PM
Responsibilities depend heavily on justification for processing.
But there's existing tools which allow you to decide if tracking cookies are set, and a privacy policy mentioning any trackers like google analytics
 
@ircmaxell okay, how long do you stay in London? :)
 
Hello, can someone summarize or point me to the code that handles branching logic in the vm? Particularly I'm curious if branching/jumping works via op_array offsets or by pointers or something...
And I'm curious about that because I suspect it is not safe to inject 2 oplines in the middle of an op_array without 'cleaning up' the rest of the oplines...
I think I've answered my own question... I see catch_op, finally_op, jmp_offset
 
@ircmaxell if you Wana destruct using list then yes, for casting it could be done using just fields names
 
@mega6382 imagine a world where we write frontend php and js backend dev. 50 years? could be 5
 
6:17 PM
@Girgias Go home Friday afternoon
@brzuchal That's fair :)
 
@ircmaxell do you want to do something on Wednesday evening? I can come into town (only if you want to)
 
@Girgias I am scheduling a team dinner for either Wednesday or Thursday night, depending on restaurant availability. If it isn't Wednesday, I am game.
 
I mean I can technically do even Thursday evening too just that I finish at 6PM
But let me know @ircmaxell :)
 
@Girgias I will let you know tomorrow. If you don't hear, please ping me. My day is insane tomorrow, so fingers crossed
 
Sure :)
 
6:28 PM
did AWS SES change their verification requirements recently?
 
6:48 PM
oh. nope. it's the shit head developer who decided that amazon saying email address verification is fine, isnt good enough, and requiring domain validation, but giving no warnings about it.
 
7:16 PM
@DaveRandom If I remove ` | DomainName::FLAG_NO_COMPRESSION` it seems to work just fine.
 
Does anyone happen to play Fortnite in here?
 
Don't play, but read something about it being gone.
Saw some little boy crying because he couldn't play lol
 
lol
It's been down as they prepare for new map release.
 
I'm prepping to have an argument with Maxell <3, so on the assumption that an official tool could add "declare(backwards_compatibility=1)" or something to old files automatically... answer me this strawpoll.me/18789725 (very not official)
To paraphrase "If PHP added versions, which version should be the default"
 
I asked something similar in a twatter poll a while ago... ended up 51% strict by default from 70 votes total
though I didn't explicitly ask about php
 
7:30 PM
I voted opt-out. I think your "latest and greatest" should be the default. Same reason I think Z should fork off onto his own PHP version project if he wants to dictate changes.
 
Well by all means, please feel free to spread the poll around a bit. If I'm going to argue against default permanently being loose behaviour, I'd like some empirical data to back it up.
 
Eh... anecdotal is my default for all arguments.
=P
Empires are overrated.
 
I'm not gonna lie, I really want some kind of mandate for cramming strict operators, strict comparisons, strict conversions and "stop guessing" behaviour into 8.0
 
who writes a program and sells it for money, with zero fucking logging, and a metric fuck ton of "undefined variable" and "undefined property" notices.
a fucking idiot, that's who.
 
<?php strict(); // instead of declares... :p
 
7:49 PM
haha, well, let's leave that poll to run for a bit. Data is data, even if it doesn't end up agreeing with me.
 
What I think is if PHP has a way to declare I want to be strict() and that's it then it would not be needed to debate about adding new extra declare type anymowe.
There should be only one declare simply just like in JS "use strict"; and any new version of PHP could be more strict without asking for permission anymore.
 
that's pretty much asking what this is, but there's two options
 
Strict is strict if someone wants to be strict probability that wants to be more strict and even more strict is highly possible
 
Jumps are either absolute or opline-relative
And yes, if you're inserting instructions there's quite a lot of fixup you need to do
Together with the instruction-specific logic in github.com/php/php-src/blob/…
 
@MarkR it's not what I mean, I'm saying that if PHP would introduce sort of language construct such as strict() the same as unset() or empty() are language constructs then each new PHP version could use that to be more strict if new features arrive, and that would not be breaking syntax the way like declare(strict_something=1); does this
I think it is, but not sure now...
 
7:58 PM
declare(...) is an existing language construct
 
@MarkR Yes, but if for eg. PHP 8.0 would introduce declare(more_strict=1); directive that would be a syntax error in PHP 7.0, right?
 
Don't believe so, I think it's just a notice
 
And the thing is it would still work but it would be less strict for PHP 7.0 right?
 
declare(nosux=1);

PHP Warning:  Unsupported declare 'nosux' in /app/boot/def.php on line 3
 
in honour of phteven I believe it should be
 
8:01 PM
It's hard to gues cause from PHP 5.3 up to all 5.X Warning: Unsupported declare 'strict_types' is raised
 
<?php declare(phrict=yeph);
 
Ok, so not a syntax error but warning, which for me is an error and this means execution should be stopped cause there is a warning
 
Technically it's a compiler warning
So there's no execution to stop, per se.
 
And I don't wanna hear that warnings are super PHP feature which only outputs a warning and there is a green light for script
But there is a warning = error
 
I expect if such a thing ever came to pass it'd end up as a composer plugin tbh
php --write-version-header 8 /path/to/source
 
8:17 PM
If I have an object that has an array for address ['address1' => '10 some street'] etc and another object where address properties are not in an array but individual properties, I need to go through the first object's array and call the setters on the 2nd object. Not wanting to do this in every controller, would a factory be adequate here to create the 2nd object from the first, or is this a place for a data mapper?
Seems factory shouldn't know about both object?. With data mapper, then eg the result of the data mapper just pass to a factory to create tne 2nd object
 
ThW
@MarkR declare(syntax=2020) - make it repeatable and without bashing
 
Would probably be PHP version based.
It's entirely hypothetical at this point.
Certainly looks like a dead split.
 
I'm telling you, declare(sloppy=very); is the answer
 
that's the equivilent of BC mode :p
 
batshit crazy?
no argument here.
 
8:25 PM
backwards compatibility.
 
I prefer my version
 
broken code
 
that works too
bullshit code.
borked code.
ok, well it's 3.30 am and this shit still doesn't work so im going to bed.
night all.
 
g'nite Stephen
 
what happened to per namespace declare() btw?
 
8:33 PM
Last I read, problems mapping file locations.
 
ThW
@Stephen It isn't and it is not funny - it is offensive.
 
anyone know how to restart or shutdown php on windows?
 
ThW
@samayo ?
 
I installed (downloaded) php for windows, and it's in C:/php but I can't restart it :/
...after modifying the ini file
 
well if you run it from the command line it'll tell you why
 
ThW
8:48 PM
Running PHP itself would mean the CLI, but I expect you run PHP as a module in a webserver you will need to restart that server.
Or the FastCGI server - but I never used that on Windows.
 
I made a mistake installing php for windows and wamp
i'm working on wamp but composer is picking app the window's version
 
ThW
ohh wamp .. I am out :-)
 
This one is an exception, I can't run Magento on docker for some reason
I'm just cheating with wamp :)
 
ThW
@samayo imho You add another level of abstraction. I mostly use just PHP (windows.php.net/download#php-7.3) with the built-in server. If required I manually install a webserver and configure it. Or built a vagrant VM for it.
 
What do you mean by 'manually install a webserver'?
Do you mean run nginx on windows alongside php?
and mariadb? because i was gonna do that, but it seemed crazy
 
ThW
8:58 PM
Yeah
 
@ThW sloppy code is offensive, agreed.
 
Sounds like more headache. I have python and mariadb both for windows installed, and I can't get them to talk :/
 
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