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Anonymous
16:00
so undo probably isn't the correct term :P But yeah something on along those lines
ah yes. Will you can always implement !!undo quickndirty by just binning messages by jeeves
And later look into handling actions like that
@Tiffany Like, fridges stocked with infinite vitamin water and beer? ;-)
!!send Tiffany some beers
I mean: at least it's more than we have now
@Jimbo just alcohol, but where I work, because we interact with the public, it would be very unprofessional to drink on the job. Also we're partially funded by taxes, soo....
16:02
drink at work @tiff?
no way...
I'm getting frustrated with what my job duties are because I'm a web administrator. I'm dev/ops, front-end developer, back-end developer, web content trainer, internal portal administrator
Well, with !!undo
Can we not have some sort of handler for plugins
Only 1 pack doesn't make any difference!
yeah, I have the same thing here, @tiff
@Sean Yes we can
Anonymous
16:03
@Sean ^ Yes this was the plan, but I think Chris said that needed a lot of refactoring on the handling side of things
fixitfixitfixit
the things I do don't exactly fit my job title
@Sean No you fixitfixitfixit
It is your idea now
kthxbye
16:04
Well yeah, I imagine. For one I'm not sure if Jeeves associates messages with a source (i.e. plugin) atm
@rabbitguy well, these duties have always been part of the job, it's just taken me several years to get annoyed with it all
we all have these days, don't we?
Anonymous
@Sean oh that was it, I think Chris wanted to separate plugins into separate repos first
@Sean Think about all your questions you have and answer them all with no
@rabbitguy probably because I wasn't doing everything efficiently before last year.
16:05
isn't milk is more healthier than beer?
4
@rabbitguy indeed. it is one of those days.
@Tiffany my performance review for this last year was basically an F. I got zero raise for the year
not even cost of living
@Linus yeah but milk doesn't get me drunk :P
!!remindme in 3 hours to fixitfixitfixit
:p
16:06
don't add me :P
I am yet do do all the things for reminder
!!command alias remindme reminder
Command 'remindme' is now mapped to Reminders # reminder
@PeeHaa lol, excellent
@JayIsTooCommon then do it :-)
16:06
yaay for quick fixes
Take two?
It's really cool stuff if it works though
!!remindme in 3 hours to fixitfixitfixit
Usage: !!reminder [ examples | list | <text> [ at <time> | in <delay> ] | unset <id> ] Try !!reminder examples
!!reminder examples
16:06
Examples:
• !!reminder foo at 18:00
• With timezone: (ie. UTC-3) !!reminder foo at 18:00-3:00
• !!reminder bar in 2 hours
• !!reminder unset 32901146
• !!reminder list
• !!in 2 days 42 hours 42 minutes 42 seconds 42!
• !!at 22:00 Grab a beer!
!!remindme fixitfixitfixit in 3 hours
Reminder set.
Cheers.
@rabbitguy I get "meets expectations" for my performance review last year. Though the next performance review, my supervisor is probably going to have something about insubordination. grumble
:-)
Anonymous
16:07
@DaveRandom love me. I will try (lol)
@Tiff sounds like you and I had a similar year
We don't have merit-based pay, so my performance review doesn't affect whether or not I get a raise, lol
nice
I'll still take this job over yours... I get a clothing allowance here!
!!remindme @PeeHaa's mom is in the basement in 1 minute
2
Anonymous
16:09
lol
Anonymous
@Jeeves yo ?
@JayIsTooCommon Jeeves is THE man.
@Jeeves How does that even remotely make sense?
16:10
@DaveRandom How do you make sense?
@Jimbo @⁠PeeHaa's mom is in the basement
@Jeeves who's your mom?
@Jeeves You take one part cold roast chicken and mix it with 18 parts gravel and leave it to mature in a ditch for a decade.
@Ekin My mother at least acknowledged me as her child.
@DaveRandom How can you see me?
I'm cracking up over here
@Jeeves I use eyes.
Anonymous
16:11
^^
@DaveRandom Where are your eyes?
@Jeeves All over you, baby
are you guys going to turn @Jeeves into cleverbot? Just as long as you don't expose him to 4chan...
@DaveRandom wakes up whoa! What a nightmare!
@Tiffany No.
:D lol
Anonymous
16:12
@PeeHaa Are you available to pester tonight?
Probably, but not the entire night. I need to get my radio and shit out of my old car and say goodbye to it for the last time
But feel free to ping
Anonymous
kk
@PeeHaa how's the new car?
@Tiffany ok for now. Until I find a better one
Anonymous
16:14
I'm thinking of getting a Citroen ds3
It's brave buying a french car :)
@JayIsTooCommon Do you do the snowboarding thing?
There is always a better car :)
Anonymous
@PeeHaa I ski but trying to get into snowboarding, it's supposedly cooler
Yeah I would point and laugh
once you get snowboarding, you'll never go back to skis again
Anonymous
16:19
lol, I'm a pro though.. honest.
it's easier and is just more fun imho
Anonymous
Also, I fucked my knee in a skiing accident and snowboarding is supposedly less fucky on your legs?
@JayIsTooCommon You aren't one of those spoiled kids who learned when he was just a kid are you?
More a kid then now
Anonymous
16:19
@PeeHaa yes :(
When you was kidder
I started skiing when I was 10... I switched to a snowboard when I was 18 and have never looked back
more kidder
@JayIsTooCommon nice
@JayIsTooCommon Yes it is
Anonymous
Bulgaria is my fav place up to now for skiing
which one is correct?
- I would better say bye to him
- I would better to say bye to him
16:21
neither really make sense
Anonymous
neither^
@JayIsTooCommon Do they have proper slopes over there
you should say, "I better say bye to him"
@Jeeves Wow this is awesome
@Jimbo Have you seen all the episodes of mlp.
16:21
@rabbitguy ah thx :-)
@Jimbo It doesn't ping people though
no problem
@rabbitguy Then how do you know if the Yeti is gaining on you?
@DaveRandom Press F.
@DaveRandom yeti's don't eat hippies
16:22
@Jeeves I have seem all the episode of FIM. Everything else is pointless.
@DaveRandom I want to see everything.
@PeeHaa It pinged me though? Didn't it? :/
!!remind me about pinging in 5 seconds
Reminder set.
@Jimbo me about pinging
@Jimbo Yes but it didn't ping me :P
@PeeHaa soon
:P
16:23
Yep, I got a ping
Ohhh,
it's been longer than 5 seconds
I can't ping other people
That's a shame
It'd need to be !!remind@PeeHaa
Anonymous
@PeeHaa Not many vicious ones tbh, but long ones. bulgariaski.com/fmimages/borovetsmap_sm.jpg you could spend a good few hours going down one run
@Tiffany wow that is a niche reference right there
@JayIsTooCommon nice
Btw aorry @JayIsTooCommon wasn't ignoring you, but had muted my phone
16:24
@JayIsTooCommon utah wasn't like that, but the last day I boarded there the rest of my group was going to ski a mountain that snowboarders aren't allowed at, so they dropped me off at a place called Briton. I got there the moment the lifts opened. I took the express to the top and took a half hour board ride down... nothing but fresh powder from the previous night
it was awesome
Besides being aorry I am also a bit sorry
Anonymous
It's not a good picture but this was my view from my room
@Tiffany Did not know that was a thing in my childhood. I get flashbacks.
Anonymous
i.sstatic.net/9a8Cz.jpg . 'twas awesome
oh wow, that's indeed awesome
16:28
Dayum that's nice
now I wanna go boarding... thnx @JayIsTooCommon
I blame @Patrick that I am looking to book a trip to the snow now
Anonymous
@rabbitguy yep, empty slopes are also the best. I used to hide from the slope patrols (BECAUSE I'M A GOD DAMN REBEL) wait till they close the lifts and then glide down like the loner I am
hehehe
there is a hill they throw snow on and call it a ski resort near here. My uncle is part of the patrol. I get free lift tickets all year long
but the place is literally a hill... the moment you get into the run you're at the bottom of the hill
Anonymous
Anonymous
I was all alone :P
beautiful
How much physical work does skiing require? Is it like walking on treadmill?
Anonymous
R11 snow holiday? :D
Anonymous
@NullPoiиteя it's not crazy. I was a fat kid and managed it fine. It can be hard on the legs though
16:33
@NullPoiиteя agree w/@jay... I think you exert more than you think you would, but it's not unbearable.
I can't think of anything else than hot beverages and food in that low temperature :)
16:54
@NullPoiиteя you'd think you would. I hate the cold, but when you're snowboarding/skiing, you forget the weather...
Question is, should skiing be learned before snowboarding?
They're completely different skills, that just share a large amount of clothing.
moinmoin
moin bwoebi
@Sean @DaveRandom :P
errr
@DaveRandom I thought that's the reference you were making
17:11
@bwoebi @kelunik I'd like to finalize the Amp v2 API (and supporting libs) soon, as I have a project I'd like to use it for starting in the beginning of January.
Looks like we're pretty close on amphp/amp.
@Trowski the main dealbreaker is getting async-interop libs released
after that we should be able to pretty quickly deal with amp too
@bwoebi I doubt those will change significantly at this point though. I can probably start the project even if those aren't finalized.
@Trowski change no. The only thing I'd like to see resolved is in particular github.com/async-interop/promise/pull/19
@Trowski and @rdlowrey I'd also like you to comment on github.com/async-interop/promise/issues/20 so that we can close that issue
@Trowski and @rdlowrey less important, but still of a certain importance: github.com/async-interop/event-loop/issues/102
These three issues is basically what's left
user895378
I don't honestly see value from a task queue
user895378
We should be optimizing for real async programming, not making it easier for people to do synchronous things IMO
17:26
heh
fun fact with reactphp: it doesn't support listen() on a unix socket.
user895378
Is there something I'm missing @bwoebi?
@rdlowrey Yes, you are. The TaskQueue is about having the when() callbacks directly called from top-level instead of in the middle of something else
Interesting... Doctrine doesn't work with things that don't have primary keys. It's interesting because some tables such as ones for timeseries data do not always have them.
@rdlowrey It's advantage would be that we don't have to ensure that state is stable at the point where we resolve deferreds whose promises we passed over API boundaries. [FTW: I'm not in favor.]
@FlorianMargaine why should react do that? listen() just initializes. Have the user call that.
user895378
@bwoebi +1
17:32
@bwoebi This is the only reason I'd like a task queue.
@rdlowrey You should read the conversation on these issues to get the actual problems.
user895378
@bwoebi so it's really just shrinking the call stack?
@DaveRandom You're an asshat.
user895378
I don't see deep call stack as an actual problem to be avoided
@bwoebi I mean, you can only do listen(8080, '127.0.0.1'), you can't do listen('/run/my.sock')
17:33
@rdlowrey me neither, in my opinion it's an advantage
@Jimbo I am. I am an asshat.
3
@FlorianMargaine does react not support unix domain sockets?
7 mins ago, by Florian Margaine
fun fact with reactphp: it doesn't support listen() on a unix socket.
no, it doesn't support unix domain sockets
@FlorianMargaine oh, misread that. unix = the family of OS' and socket = BSD sockets
fair enough
it's an even funnier fact because the #1 issue on the reactphp is to add support for that
and it's still not supported
quite literally, issue #1.
and it's not like it's a hard problem
17:36
@Trowski Ensuring that state is stable leads to more robust code in the end. It's not necessarily an advantage
@FlorianMargaine :-P
@FlorianMargaine github.com/reactphp/socket-client/pull/41 looks merged? … or am I missing something?
listen()
17:37
@bwoebi woo!
14 days ago
ah no, last year
hm.
ok, I apologize then.
ah no
@bwoebi that's client-side, not server-side
@FlorianMargaine yeah, realized right now :-/
I retract my apology
:-P
user895378
@bwoebi Either way I don't see that as a thing that belongs in an async spec.
last update, 22 days ago, to add the "new feature" label
come on guys, it was asked 4 years ago
17:40
@rdlowrey Agree… may you please add that in the github issue? (And state why you don't think it belongs there)
(also, lol, the API is super ugly. Seriously.)
@FlorianMargaine Why are you even still using looking at react instead of amphp? :-P
@bwoebi I'm not, a coworker was trying it out, because we've added support for long-running php processes
@FlorianMargaine tell him about amphp…
17:41
but?
Larry Garfield, you might know him
well, react is more well-known
user895378
it's more conferency, anyway
I do not know him, except having read his name sometimes on fig and rarely on internals
ftr, I told him at least 3 times to use amphp :P
@rdlowrey yeah, and it unfortunately kinda matters
@FlorianMargaine Shit being widely known doesn't make it less shit :-P
@FlorianMargaine tell him to promote amphp a bit to get it known :-P
17:43
@bwoebi I can only agree there :)
user895378
@bwoebi this was always the problem with fig ... overreaching standards
I wish I could switch to amphp for this project. Unfortunately I need rabbitmq / stomp support, which nobody has written for amphp yet. I'd do it myself, but I don't feel confident writing a library for a thing I'm using for the first time.
DANIEL!!! ^
YOU WANTED TO DO IT ALREADY LAST YEAR THIS TIME :-D
@rdlowrey I'd like to add though, that if you want a task queue, I think we need it there though. You want to either have the guarantee or not have it. But being unsure about whether the guarantee exists is worthless.
@Charles there's only a beanstalkd client for now, but this may not be enough, yeah :-/
Is there ZeroMQ support?
:-)
neither and there's our issue…
17:48
@bwoebi Unfortunately I need pub/sub and a proper distributed model.
If it was just a local work queue I'd just use gearman anyway, as I know all the bad things about it already.
Someone needs to dedicate a week to that and we're done…
To whomever attempts to write it, I'm on call all the time for help.
Anonymous
@bwoebi pah, i'd do it in a day
Give me a week and a half to finish up this and then I might see how badly I can screw everything else up.
@Charles to finish up what?
a stomp client in amphp
17:52
@Charles uh, did you mean that seriously now?
And then if it doesn't completely break everything else in the world, I get to port my ratchet stuff to amphp. :p
Yes, serious.
I'm between stupid small contracts right now.
Well, that would be awesome.
The protocol looks simple enough.
I've just never really worked with it for non-trivial things.
ok
great
I've also only ever worked with ratchet, not amphp, so this'll be painful / fun.
17:55
@Charles s/painful \/// :-)
I love that the stomp 1.1 spec is three times larger than the 1.0 spec.
Fills my heart with glee.
Feature creep…
Yeah, a few new things, but it looks way more like it fixes ambiguities than anything else.
hm ok
@bwoebi I agree, but it can be a source of time-dependent bugs that are frustrating for beginners.
user895378
18:18
@Charles that's sad ... STOMP's simplicity via newline delimited protocol is the whole reason to use it over AMQP
@FlorianMargaine Larry was interested in Icicle for a little while. I'm not sure if he's aware I'm working on Amp.
which one is correct?
- no at all
- not at all
as the answer of "wasn't it good?" question
18:55
@rdlowrey After looking over 1.1 and 1.2, almost all of the changes to the spec are disambiguations and clarifications. 1.0 only looks simple because there are lots of assumptions.
That said, I'm totally starting with 1.0 :p
user895378
Great
user895378
The lack of an amp AMQP client is the major blocker to me mandating amp usage across our entire back-end product team
@rdlowrey Time to start coding then :-D
user895378
amqp is a real horror
I've never had the displeasure of working with it.
I thought there was a React lib for amqp, I would think porting it would be straightforward.
19:07
@Sean fixitfixitfixit
!!remindme go home from work in 3 hours 15 minutes
Reminder set.
user895378
@Trowski It only offloads the synchronous amqp stuff to a worker process lol
user895378
Not actually useful for us
I am having so much trouble using slim php framework
I have to create api for login and registration on it :(
any good tutorial on slim php
user895378
19:21
@bwoebi I hate the promise error handler
user895378
Why?
user895378
We can't just create global static things all over the place to force people not to break things
user895378
It's your job to handle exceptions
user895378
It's only going to create the same problem that the php web sapi has where errors don't show by default ...
user895378
if your application is broken it should fail hard and fast
user895378
19:23
not silently log output to wherever
user895378
The promise spec doesn't need an error handler to be decoupled from the loop spec
user895378
It just needs to not make mention of the loop spec. Error handling is not the job of a spec, it's the job of the programmer
user895378
@kelunik I think the whole idea of a promise error handler is a big mistake
@rdlowrey How should it be done?
@rdlowrey It has to be part of the spec. Error handling is part of a public API.
@rdlowrey if something is broken in Aerys in a specific route, you don't necessarily want to kill the whole webserver though
19:34
^ That, too.
PhpStorm seems to be leaving spaces on blank lines all of a sudden… anyone know why that would be and if there's a setting that got borked?
@Trowski While true, I've only ever encountered that issue in library specific code beginners won't even touch.
@Trowski But the fix is trivial in nearly every case. It's just setting the property containing the deferred (or array of deferreds) to null/empty and then resolving.
user895378
@bwoebi Right. Because that's a software fix. Not a specification
@rdlowrey Right, but the specification needs to allow that handling in our software
@bwoebi Right. Something we can note in some of the advanced docs, and it's a non-issue in coroutines.
19:38
@rdlowrey If we fail hard there (you mean E_USER_ERROR I guess?), we cannot handle that.
@Trowski yes, yes.
user895378
@bwoebi no it doesn't, we have try/catch
I assume Amp would bootstrap the Promise error handler to just forward to the loop error handler?
@rdlowrey you mean you want to let the exceptions from inside the when() callbacks leak into resolving code?
user895378
I'm just worried we're creating a giant domain people have to learn
@Trowski Yeah
user895378
19:41
With very little benefit
@rdlowrey You can't use try / catch there. The exceptions bubble at the wrong place.
user895378
@kelunik If your code can throw you should wrap it in a try/catch
user895378
And if you didn't realize code could throw then you should find out the hard way as early as possible so you can add a try/catch
@rdlowrey So, we'd have to wrap every single resolve() call
That's a bit too much of discomfort IMHO.
user895378
No, you try/catch inside your own code
19:42
@rdlowrey You can't wrap any ->succeed in a try / catch, just because the ->when handler you have no control of could throw.
@rdlowrey we should.
user895378
@kelunik you don't wrap that, you wrap your application code ... the part that throws
@rdlowrey The discussion is about what should happen when we don't.
user895378
@bwoebi Right, and I'm of the opinion it should throw then and there
@rdlowrey Hmm
perhaps.
19:43
@rdlowrey The when handler throws, but that would bubble into the ->resolve call. That code has nothing to do with the application. One is in the library, the other is an application mistake.
user895378
Coroutines solve this problem for you except at the very top layer of your application
@rdlowrey yeah
user895378
so I don't think we should optimize for the undesirable use-case of not coroutines
user895378
Especially when it makes it easy to ignore errors
user895378
This behavior has caused so many problems in the php web sapi already
19:45
@rdlowrey No, coroutines solve that everywhere, because their when handler is stable and does never throw. when callbacks MUST never throw, but nothing prevents that from happening.
user895378
people don't know what's going wrong because they get a white screen
@rdlowrey We're totally not doing that.
user895378
@kelunik you're trying to enforce something you can't enforce
@rdlowrey We make it hard to ignore errors.
user895378
you can't say, "your code cannot throw"
19:45
@rdlowrey optimize, no. But it should be handled somewhat sanely nevertheless.
user895378
When are you ever resolving a promise without a loop?
user895378
It doesn't even make sense in php
@rdlowrey You can say it MUST NOT throw. You can't enforce it. That's exactly the problem.
user895378
So don't force people to know about 92 different layers of error handling
user895378
@kelunik and yet you're trying to enforce it
19:46
@rdlowrey resolving? no. But applying when() after the resolution, maybe.
@rdlowrey Why without a loop? Why do you mention the loop here?
user895378
because the loop already gives you last-chance error handling
@rdlowrey Exactly none. If you don't set the loop error handler, the exceptions bubble up. If you don't set the promise error handler, it will fail hard.
@kelunik you need to know about them and set them though in order to avoid failing hard
@rdlowrey No, I'm just providing a sane way of handling these.
@bwoebi Sure, but you have to know about exactly those two things. They're the base of all async code. It's not that we're building a framework and users have to know some strange internals.
If you write async code, you have to be familiar with the basics, otherwise it will all end in <insert your favorite word here>.
19:51
@kelunik Let me insert <great code> there. The less basics you need to know, the better.
@rdlowrey What's your proposal? Letting it bubble into the resolve call?
@bwoebi Sure, suggest a sane way please.
That doesn't make it easy to miss errors.
@kelunik Unify the Promise and Loop error handling.
@bwoebi Then you depend on the loop spec.
And you have the issue with reactphp/promise again.
@kelunik or we can just use a separate package for the handling
which loop and promise use both
@bwoebi In that case we can't keep the current handling. We can't allow the errors to bubble up anymore for the loop if rethrown.

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