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2:03 PM
@Gordon Oh, I think the heuristics for bad questions are much simpler than that
I think if you applied normal bayesian spam filtering to questions it would give pretty good success rates
I might actually want to try that out ^^
 
Anyone wanna be the one to give me up vote and raise my rep to exactly 3000 ? :D
 
@NikiC for the php tag, this should be sufficient:
function shouldBeClosed()
{
    return rand(1,10) < 9;
}
 
@romaninsh that's whoring ... better write a good answer to a random question
 
@Gordon would have a good total recognition rate, but too many false positives ;) We don't want false positives ^^
 
@tereško, I know but's it's a very special milestone...! :)
 
2:08 PM
@NikiC the few false positives we can easily handle with a
 
@Gordon that's roughly saying 90% should be closed :D
 
@MelvinProtacio which is a good real world estimate ;)
 
or 80% since 9 is not included
 
oh true. should be <=
 
but note that the number of real world problems may not have been exhausted, i'm sure there are new issues that may not have been covered by years of recording
specially now that there are lots of new paradigm, new approaches, new technologies
i have not seen much questions with regards to using php in the cloud
 
2:12 PM
SO has two problems : 1. people do not know how to search , 2. people from India suck at english
 
oh btw meant to ask, isn't whoring?
 
or problems specific to some new frameworks
 
@romaninsh , no , it is cleanup
 
@tereško racist but LOL
 
which of them was vote-up.
 
2:14 PM
based on my experience it is better to read than to hear how they do in english
 
@romaninsh , CV stand for "close vote" there is no vote-up thing
 
cv = close vote, dv = down vote, delv = delete vote
 
headdesk = funny post above
 
thanks, it's clear now.
 
@MelvinProtacio its not so much that they suck at english but rather that many of them visiting us in chat expect to be spoonfed and complain when you refuse to do that. we had that several times here and call it India Asking Pattern. It's a cultural thing apparently.
 
2:19 PM
not really cultural
it is the result of education system there
they are mass-producing IT "specialists"
 
hi @PeeHaa
 
and hiya @NikiC
 
@PeeHaa Hi @PeeHaa
 
hi @donut
 
2:21 PM
@MelvinProtacio i am the first to admit that there is some bias in that though, but its not racists. its more like frustration and despair based.
 
almost weekend. ow yeah :)
 
hey guys , BarCamp Bangalore Tomorrow, sad that no one is talking about php
 
lemme guess , it is all ruby and html5
 
I've been to India and I think they are not really that good, although there are some that are exceptional
 
2:22 PM
Android, Ruby
 
and they all have high regard for themselves
 
"sir" is the watchword
 
@Gordon It's still called racist. Being true and being racist are non-exlusive.
 
@MelvinProtacio to be fair, we had a few not fitting the description in here as well.
 
hey I am an Indian :)
 
2:24 PM
hey there @Krish ;)
 
i don't see that you disagree with our assessment , @Krish
 
Hi !! @NikiC
 
=P
 
mhm. lol
 
@Krish Hi, will you complain when we wont spoonfeed you anything?
 
2:27 PM
this could be interesting to watch : responsive web design
and what is Rajinikanth ?
in "Creating Rajinikanth Powered Site" .. google tells me that it is someone's name .. also it looks like page contains only "token comments"
@Krish ?
it seems to be either some framework or cms .. but there is no info
 
how do you do that tagging? [php] like this?
 
got a job offer. they want to me to fill in a word document. i am tempted to respond with: im a developer. i dont use word.
 
i'm not familiar with that tagging
@Gordon LOL
 
@MelvinProtacio [tag:tagname]
 
[close-vote:cv-pls]
LOL it's not working :D
 
2:37 PM
[tag:cv-pls]
 
ah.. ok.. great!
learned something new LOL
thanks
 
heh, I hate linux
If it hangs, it hangs really
 
pray that it is not kernel panic :D
 
@NikiC just like my … errm … yeah.. nevermind
 
I really don't get how it can give php 100% cpu so that I can't even kill the process ^^
 
2:43 PM
I am sad today
 
@ircmaxell cheer up! who the hell cares anyway :D
LOL
 
photos.nj.com/jersey-journal/2012/02/… <-- That's happening on my block (about 10 doors down from me
I walk past it every day on my way to work
 
@ircmaxell what's the rate of a PHP developer in NJ?
would you know?
 
@MelvinProtacio depends on your skill level, and what you want to do.
I'll put it this way: I'm quite happy with my salary
 
@ircmaxell who is that?
 
2:46 PM
nah.. I'm currently working offshore in a NY-based company and I want to assess if I'm getting well-paid :D
or at least a bit near to the average
 
heh and there it hangs again :(
 
@MelvinProtacio I'm in New York
 
@ircmaxell :D i'm in manila :D
 
@MelvinProtacio Oh ok, I skipped the "offshore" part
which NY-based company if I may ask?
 
i refuse to disclose :D
@ircmaxell but going back to the question, how much on the average do a PHP guy gets?
 
2:51 PM
between $35,000 and $150,000 per year
 
Hello everyone
 
@ircmaxell , lol .. maybe is should emigrate
 
:-D
 
here it is more like $5,000 - $20,000 per year
 
so that's around 16-70 USD per hour?
and i'm earning only around $7 per hour how cheap LOL
 
2:57 PM
$26.710 a year for 3 days a week in the netherlands
 
@tereško cost of living is a whole lot less as well
 
true
 
Hm, I think I have some broken mb_ereg build :(
 
recompile it
 
which framework do you guys use?
 
3:02 PM
yii is a good one
 
no , it isnt
 
really?
 
i used it a lot some month ago
 
how was it?
 
bad
 
3:03 PM
you cannot say it is bad without comparison. to what framework are you comparing yii?
 
come with facts please, don't just throw your opinion man
 
codeigniter?
cake?
lithium?
kohana?
 
can you please stop making me cringe and shudder?
 
@MelvinProtacio This chatroom is pretty negative about most frameworks ;)
 
@NikiC why?
 
3:05 PM
@Zundrium Because most are bad.
 
@MelvinProtacio Yii: documentation contains 3 lines of code for each 4 pages of text , core classes have no code comments , global state everywhere , if you need to replace some class ( for example routing related ) you have to guess what methods you need to implement , there is derelict (not ever used) code all over , some files contain more then one class , constructors often do a lot of computation , module system is grafted on top of controllers , ad they have no clue what MVC is
 
@NikiC I don't use any framework as well.. made a little one myself with a MVC structure
So basically everyone here writes their own?
 
@Zundrium I'm writing my own framework, its more a library of reusable objects though.
 
@Zundrium , all php developers at some point write own framework .. it is like right of passage
but if i am forced to name two frameworks which suck the least , i would go with Symphony2 and Kohana3
 
@tereško so I guess you have written one as well, does your framework have a MVC structure?
 
3:09 PM
i also rarely use framework and if ever I use one, for education purposes only :D
maybe not a framework at all but a collection of coherent, organized, and reusable functionality
 
@Zundrium , i wrote one when i just started to learn about MVC , and now it would make my eyes bleed
and no , it did not contain anything resembling MVC in the form i understand it now
 
@tereško : rajinikanth is like chuk noris in india
 
@tereško Guess I'm forced to completely rewrite my framework if I want to use ORM someday
 
@Krish .. oh .. then i think i even know that guy
@Zundrium , if you want to use ORM , you really should learn SQL , now
ORMs are not replacement for "Model"
 
@tereško well I'll just keep it at simple sql querys for now.. which is always better for preformance if you use it wisely
just takes more time to write
 
3:15 PM
no it does not
 
@tereško it really depends on your abstraction about the model and how strict your view on MVC is
you could have 2 types of model, one for the database model and one for the view model
 
no , there is not abstraction where ORM === Model
none , whatsoever
 
in .NET there is what you call MVVM
 
MODEL IS NOT A CLASS , IT IS A LAYER
 
++
 
3:17 PM
do you think i'm referring to class?
=))
how silly
LOL
 
I'm still new to ORM.. in a MVC structure it's all based on a base class right?
 
posted on February 07, 2012 by Chris Shiflett

One of my goals this year is to acquire new skills, so I've decided to start by learning JavaScript. As was the case when I learned html and CSS, it's a tricky endeavor, because I'm not exactly a beginner, and most stuff is geared toward beginners, which can make learning so inefficient that I lose my motivation. I've decided to treat this effort just like I treat exercise, which is to focus

posted on February 10, 2012 by Gareth Heyes

Over the last few days I’ve finally fixed a data enumeration bug that was haunting a new feature in Shazzer. Originally Shazzer just mutated one character at a time to discover characters which influenced the fuzz vectors in interesting ways. I decided to expand that to include data. I called the feature “datasets” because you could assign a placeholder to a set of data. Using this placeholder

 
@tereško Model is a person who is employed to display, advertise and promote commercial products (notably fashion clothing) or to serve as a subject of works of art.
4
 
Where you extend on the ORM base class just to shape the table structure
 
3:19 PM
model is a collection of classes, your fundamental classes, it may be of the form of a bean. in some cases the model and the database layer are synonymous to each other
 
who said that model gets data from database ?
 
@Gordon checking..
 
i never did
but in most cases the model contains the data from or to the database
or somehow abstracted or wrapped
 
That's how I see it as well, apparently Gordon doesn't agree?
 
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9229605/in-php-how-do-you-get-the-called-aliased-class-when-using-class-alias
@tereško have you tried researching on MVC/MVP/MVVM?
or are you too limited to PHP and how you perceive the MVC framework?
 
3:32 PM
sorry ? what exactly is your question ?
 
@MelvinProtacio no mention of HMVC?
 
and let's not forget MVCMA
 
that's fairly new
kohana is one of the HMVC :D
 
what is fairly new ?
HMVC is 12 year old pattern
 
almost the same with MVC but further divided to sub components where each component is a MVC on its own right
new to me
:D
 
3:34 PM
the new one is MMXII
 
it was released Jan, 1st.
 
@Gordon LOL don't joke around someone may believe that that framework really exist
 
the only term I know is MVC, so basically a HMVC is using subcontrollers, sub views and submodels?
 
it's Hierarchical MVC
kohana is one sample of HMVC a derivative of codeigniter that is MVC
 
3:36 PM
i think i will just watch this one
 
never used kohana or codeigniter heh..
 
@tereško LOL
 
Why so much people likes Kohana? It's full of global state.
 
@Zundrium used CI for about a couple of months only and Kohana just to play around
 
I left CI for symfony2 recently
 
3:37 PM
@MelvinProtacio CI is like the perfect framework for lazy starters, no offense
thats how i see it at least
 
@Donut mostly because the code is well commented , and they have been constantly removing all the magic
 
@tereško : I think you should watch this :P youtube.com/watch?v=vL56NP5d96Q#t=2m38s
 
seen that one
 
lol
 
zend is for nerds LOL
 
3:40 PM
Ah so HMVC is about modules and dots.
 
recursion
 
can we compare symfony's bundles with HMVC modules ?
offered by other frameworks
 
Yeah, sounds like my basicfunctions.php
 
thinks about @salathes suggestion
 
HMVC uses a MVC triad for what symfony uses bundles for. So it has what you could call sub-requests for each part of the page...
 
3:45 PM
@ircmaxell I get it, thanks
 
cool
 
HMVC usually use chains like filter chains or validation chains
it's like traversing trees
 
no, it doesnt
 
@tereško explain your mind!
 
@tereško so is it a different feature of the framework not related to HMVC?
 
3:51 PM
it has nothing to do with "filter chains" or "validation chains" ... whatever that actually means
 
@tereško have you tried using HMVC?
 
no , i just talk out of may ars like you .. of course i have use HMVC , and a lot
 
jeez, just been on reddit. do people really use that? its fugly. is that something like the craigslist for php discussions? eye bleeding!
 
3:55 PM
@tereško ok you use it a lot.. then what particular framework is that?
it would be good if you name that framework of yours :P
 
Loving this chatroom so I'll be back some time. Going home now good day everyone
 
@Gordon : lol I don't understand it either, but I have seen best Internet trolls there :P
 
@Zundrium Awesome, see you soon
 
goodnight all
 
@Gordon it's like a soap call i suppose?
maybe a webservice of some sort
 
4:14 PM
@MelvinProtacio , you still havnt explained what "filter chains" and "validation chains" are , in the context of HMVC
or , why you think that MVP and MVVM is not available patterns in php
 
you may want to research so that I am not obliged to explain the same way that you are avoiding interrogation on your conclusive statements :D
 
which conclusive statements ?
 
LOL how to embed?
2 hours ago, by Gordon
@MelvinProtacio its not so much that they suck at english but rather that many of them visiting us in chat expect to be spoonfed and complain when you refuse to do that. we had that several times here and call it India Asking Pattern. It's a cultural thing apparently.
 
yes, i use HMVC a lot , it is conclusive statement | no , HMVC does not have such terms as "filter chains" and "validation chains" | same | and what did that have to do with anything ?!
@MelvinProtacio , you are just troll
 
@MelvinProtacio I have a hard time phrasing that in a way that it doesnt get across rude. Like i said, its something we have experienced here quite often (in fact, just this morning) and its much more about being frustrated about it than about people from India in general. It just seems to happen more frequently with people from India in here.
It does not mean, people from India are not welcome here. Everyone is welcome until proven guilty of the pattern.
 
4:34 PM
i rest my case :D to avoid flaming topic :D
@tereško i don't want to insist my view on you. it's enough that i know what i know
@Gordon sorry for quoting :D
 
4:45 PM
anybody have a debug build handy to test something?
 
4:56 PM
@Gordon: as mentioned in the description of chat room "Don't ask whether someone is here or can help. Just tell us your problem. If anybody can and wants to help, they will." . Why do even bother if you think the question is vague or unworthy of answering ?
btw @Gordon any chance that you attended OSI - India, reason I am asking is , I met Bastian Feder
, Arne Blankerts, Tobias there.. just wondering if you were there too
 
<?php

$largeArray = array_fill(0, 2000000, '*');
$ref = $largeArray;

function byRef(&$ref) {}
byRef($ref);
Segfault :)
 
chat logs gets deleted ? :|
 
nope
@NikiC really?
 
dunno ,, just asking ..
lol
 
@ircmaxell If it hits the memory limit while passing the ref, yes
 
5:11 PM
@Krish , you could say that _some_ logs are there : chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/11/2010/10/15
you know .. in a really limited way =P
 
@ircmaxell could you try to reproduce it? With array_fill(0, 2000, '*') and memory_limit=500K
@ircmaxell nevermind, rasmus already reproduced
 
@NikiC Which PHP version?
 
@hakre Any, but preferably 5.4
 
5:29 PM
Can't reproduce with php -d memory_limit=256m test2.php - windows, PHP 5.3.8
ECHO PHP_VERSION;

$largeArray = array_fill(0, 2000000, '*');
$ref = $largeArray;

function byRef(&$ref) {}
byRef($ref);

echo 'done';
output: 5.3.8done
 
here is the precise reproduce code:
<?php

function byRef(&$ref) {}

ini_set('memory_limit', '500k');

$array = array_fill(0, 2000, '*');
$ref = $array;

byRef($array);
 
@NikiC No segfault but: Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 512000 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 35 bytes) in ...
 
@hakre which line?
 
10
 
But yes, it's supposed to reach the memory limit
 
5:36 PM
byRef($array);
 
but on 5.4 it will segfault after that ;)
 
Just curious, but why are you building with 5.4?
 
Ah
 
@knichol I'm running fuzz tests
 
5:37 PM
That makes sense :)
 
5:50 PM
@NikiC Thank you for running tests.
 
@hakre Fuzz testing just takes so damn much time :( I don't even do the fuzzing myself and only analyze existing scripts. But reducing those takes lots of time ^^
 
6:34 PM
@Krish when did i say questions are unworthy? Oo
@Krish no, i wasnt there. but i know all of them in person. im in the same usergroup as tobias actually. and know arne and bastian from various other conferences.
 
I mean seriously reopen that question.
I want a good resource on the "sensible good subset of PHP" and it shouldnt be closed as "herp derp, read the manual or herp derp read design patterns"
 
6:56 PM
One more reopen vote to go.
@NikiC What have you been working on lately?
 
@LeviMorrison Nothing I think :(
 
@NikiC :(
No interesting PHP internals adventures?
 
@LeviMorrison Oh, of that I get enough ^^ I thought you mean projects
 
@NikiC Anything interesting?
 
@LeviMorrison Also got a post on pointer tagging and boxing, not sure whether you've seen it (nikic.github.com/2012/02/02/…)
@LeviMorrison Hm, not really. I'm currently trying to reproduce and track down crashes from fuzz scripts
And have little success with that so far ^^ Only got one clean crash so far
 
7:06 PM
does count() tell me the number of elements in an associative array?
in php
(as opposed to just the number of indexed elements, like javascript's length or something)
 
@Hamster I am not quite sure I fully understand, but yes, it will give you the number of elements.
I just noticed that my new tab button for Google Chrome on Windows doesn't have a +. Is this Windows specific, or do I just have a different version of Chrome installed?
 
@Hamster yes
 
k thx
 
@Hamster PHP does not have such a thing as an indexed array or an associative array. It has only a hubrid structure which is both (and much more)
 
@NikiC Javascript sorta does too
 
7:12 PM
@Hamster no, JS has a "real" array structure. I wish php had that too, but it doesn't :(
 
hmm ... europe is taking over the sci-fi movie market
 
@NikiC i can treat an indexed array as an associative array, i mean
or, i THINK thats how it went...
(in javascript, i mean)
of course you would want to use object literals for that purpose
i just wanted to be clear that php isn't doing some similar shenanigans
 
@NikiC Will your life change much come summer? Meaning, will you have a bit of extra time than normal, perhaps?
 
@LeviMorrison missing everywhere, not just windows :)
@LeviMorrison I think I have lots of extra time even if it is not summer :P why?
 
7:27 PM
@NikiC This summer I am quitting one of my jobs.
I'm not strapped for cash enough to spend all my time working for other people.
I'm not quite sure which project I'll be working on, but I will be working on a project.
 
nice
or not nice maybe ^^
 
I am wondering if you'd be interested in any of them.
 
depending on what they are ^^
 
The one I think you'd probably be interested in goes something like this:
> A website that teaches good, modern PHP with interactive tutorials and automated testing. Also points out common mistakes and myths.
Automated testing requires them to use interfaces and factories. Win and win. And they're just learning PHP. Whaddaya know.
 
that sounds like an aweful lot of work ^^
 
7:32 PM
Yep. Hence why I am selectively recruiting :)
 
and what are your other ideas?
 
PHP DataStructures :)
Website crawler | SEO tool
I have a few more, but I'm beginning to think I don't really want to do them.
 
website crawler?
 
Yeah. The idea is the it crawls a website looking for errors of various kinds, including SEO mistakes.
 
heh, can't get imap to build :(
Heh, you always have such complicated ideas ^^
 
7:36 PM
I've already built a crawler in C. It's not the one I'd use to actually implement this project, but it's not as hard as you might think.
The hard part on that one is detecting errors.
Oh yeah: a Modern Forms implementation. I've already done some of the work. The idea is to support the latest two releases of every major browser except IE, which targets IE 9 and 10 and will degrade nicely enough for IE8. Also uses minimal markup and supports things like aria.
And it will look good. That's important too. And no JavaScript.
 
aria?
 
I may also release a jQuery UI theme if it looks good enough.
> WAI-ARIA, the Accessible Rich Internet Applications Suite, defines a way to make Web content and Web applications more accessible to people with disabilities. It especially helps with dynamic content and advanced user interface controls developed with Ajax, HTML, JavaScript, and related technologies
 
is that like allowing tabbing through forms and such?
making text readable with voice software, etc
 
Partially.
Also allows you to specify thinks like optional and required fields, as well as if you have an error with something.
@NikiC I think the decision was a bad UI move. Two reasons: it's now so transparent that on my average quality screen it is hardly visible, and it's not obvious what it does anymore. I know only because I have used the product before.
Bad Chrome. BAD.
Also, the comments at code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=98264 suggest that the + appears on hover, but I just don't have a + at all.
 
7:53 PM
me neither
 
@LeviMorrison I'm using Chrome on Mac and I still have the same new-tab button as before. It simply doesn't have the + sign on it. But still definitely visible without needing hover
 
At work I have to deal with Windows Server _____, so I decided to use the Windows machines they provide. I am dual booting, of course. Windows is too hard to use. Doesn't let me do what I want.
/digress
Windows has a black/near black bar that my tabs show on, and the new tab 'leaf' is barely visible. I always Ctrl+t so it's k.
 
Heh; just spent half an hour tracking down a memory leak and how it's just gone. And now everything again...
 
8:14 PM
I'm really tired today for some reason.
Makes my patience with Windows grow thin.
And no PHP coding today. Just JavaScript :(
 
8:28 PM
Wooohooo, now I have 100 watches on github.com/nikic/PHP-Parser
 
i highly doubt that you write good native javascript
sorry .. but that's the impression
 
@NikiC gratz
 
@LeviMorrison do you have a twitter account btw?
@Gordon thx
 
@tereško I don't, to be honest. Growing up in web development JavaScript was bad, and you shouldn't use it.
Then I took a two year break.
All of a sudden you are a fool if you DON'T enhance your application with JavaScript.
And since IE 6 was still around, I never bothered writing native JS. I've always used a library.
 
hoy hoy
@LeviMorrison JS is bad
 
8:32 PM
hoi @ircmaxell
 
:-X
 
hum parse_ini_file leaks a file descriptor if you specify an invalid scanner mode :)
 
damn ... what the hell has been done to FreeBSD 9 installer oO
 
I have errors all over MDN today. Do you guys see it too?
 
@LeviMorrison not today, it's been like that for weeks
 
8:46 PM
Weeks? What on earth happened?
Do I really have to use w3schools?
 
@LeviMorrison are you looking for API specifics or for XPath docs?
 
@LeviMorrison , you should keep away as far as humanly possible from w3schools
 
hrm, MDN looks to be working now for me
@tereško I think that was the point he was making
 
the point is , if you think that only option left for you is w3schools , then you are wrong .. you already exhausted the last option
5
 
He there
 
@edorian ehlo
 
@Gordon I've just been doing a lot of JS work today and needed a reference.
@ircmaxell Only some pages are affected.
@ircmaxell According to the bug report, any snippet using syntax highlighting breaks.
 
9:38 PM
yeee .. lighttpd is compiling
 
9:51 PM
when you rent a car, how do you call the guy in the office that will do the paperwork with you? in english?
rental agent? leasing agent?
 
In America, just say "The guy who helps you with paperwork." :)
 
@LeviMorrison and in the UK "the bloke helping you with the documents"? :)
 
@Gordon :)
 

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