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16:00
@MichaelAngstadt that means CGI is a driver for internet based hardware ? I guess that's kind of far too low level
@edorian architecture is the server? or the framework?
The applications architecture
@Raynos No, it's just a program that runs on your computer that handles requests from the Internet
@MichaelAngstadt isn't that "the server" ? Like apache ?
Yes
Well, I think it's more like handing off the request to a program on your computer.
@edorian you can apply the same architecture to all these platforms. Apart from maybe your custom hand written HTTP server in C. But I know all about the application choices
16:02
@Raynos my point exactly :)
You can write very fast and very slow websites with every language
Like say you had some binary file that you wanted to process the request. That would act as a CGI.
I don't know anything about the hardware, server or stack choices. I just tend to go "Pssh node is awesome I dont need PHP/ASP/Ruby/Python/J2EE etc." So I want to get a proper understanding of these things.
and you can write scalable and not scalable things too
To make an example: If you depend on storing everything in one database and your choice of technology makes it really really hard to change that you have way more problems them if you can just say "ok, cache that, that and that"
public function getInstance($className, array $configOverload = array())
{
    $reflector = new ReflectionClass($className);
    return $reflector->newInstanceArgs(
        array_map(
            array($this, 'resolveDependency'),
            $configOverload + $this->getCtorArguments($className)
        )
    );
}
@edorian but database choice is based on technology choice. I choose to use database depending on what server and server-side technology I have
16:05
but there are things (like a shared-nothing-architecture) that can make scaling (more servers) pretty easy
since php for example has no shared stuff between requests it is very easy to just throw 4 webservers against a problem
What's the correct "term" for the language i.e. PHP/Ruby etc. I use "server-side language"
scripting language?
server-side language is fine. Also includes node and java
Dynamically typed language.
16:06
@edorian well there's loads. JS/LISP/SmallTalk/PHP/Ruby/Python/C/C#/VB/Java/... etc
while you need to, maybe, change a lot more in other languages when you want to make use of more hardware
I would consider PHP to be a server-side language because that is what it is most commonly used for.
yeah, server-side language is fine
@MichaelAngstadt I mean in the sentence "What server and server-side language" would you choose where answers are "PHP & Apache" or "nginx and RoR" etc.
VB, well.. java is both, python is kinda both too
16:07
@edorian there not server-side languages, they can be used as server-side languages
If you store things between requests like counters etc. and you have 2 servers you now have 2 counters, and thats a problem
I guess "scripting language for your server" is better, but thats tedious
@edorian isn't that a (bad) design choice ?
"What web server and language".
@MichaelAngstadt I guess "language" itself is specific enough in that context
what if I dont have "web server" in the context ?
@Raynos architecture choices will lead to design choices
16:09
or "What HTTP server and language" because it is a web application you are referring to.
usually
How ppl are creating signatures generators for gamers if they don't share API ?
I mean how to get user data without API.
@Robik parse the information out of the website?
These is not much :|
as in: really dirty
16:10
I created a signature generator for a forum called JavaRanch, which is a Java forum.
@edorian then where can I see an overview of architectures and their "suggested" design choices. i.e. the design choices that go "with" the architecture rather then againts it.
I had to screen-scrape the webpage in order to get the user's data.
Also are the languages independant of the server? Or does a web server need a "driver" for a language?
can I run PHP on any web server?
can I run C on apache?
It was messy, but doable.
That depends how the language works. There are standards like fCgi that enable webservers to talk to pretty much anything
16:11
@Raynos I think so.
so as long as the language implements the fCgi standard I can run it on apache ?
very abstract idea: "the webserver calls a script and sends out the output of that script"
I'm a .NET guy so I dont know any of this. in .NET it's just "magic code-behind" and "get sysadmin to install IIS"
That's what happens with IIS...it receives an HTTP request, then passes it along to .NET
I'm more familiar with the incoming request routing systems now.
16:13
FastCGI is a protocol for interfacing interactive programs with a web server. FastCGI is a variation on the earlier Common Gateway Interface (CGI); FastCGI's main aim is to reduce the overhead associated with interfacing the web server and CGI programs, allowing a server to handle more web page requests at once. History CGI is a protocol for interfacing external applications to web servers. CGI applications run in a separate process, which is created at the start of each request and torn down at the end. This "one new process per request" model makes CGI programs very simple to implem...
Not too familiar with how to connect a server (i.e. IIS) to something which you can pass HTTPRequest objects to
hi there
who can help me in this question: stackoverflow.com/questions/5597897/…
Oh btw: That rails flame was the first thing that could classify as someone trolling this room. It's been month and month without that happening and I'm pretty happy how this room handled it.
I just love the SO community for that
16:15
posted on April 08, 2011

On the Web Application Solutions blog today there's a new post sharing some essential libraries for CodeIgniter development they've found useful. Codeigniter Framework is one of the best PHP Framework around the world. Several people use this for different purpose. Application with Codeigniter is very fast in comparison to other framework. Good documentation, easy structure is main features

@edorian the guy saying rails is god? or was he saying rails is shit? I have a habit of getting into heated discussions in such situations >_> or throwing oil on fire.
Joining the php room and stating that php is from people that are not able to run their own servers and then restarting that that is a fact.
So no real arguments, but no one shouted back, and I'm happy about that
@phplover No clue, they seem to charge for their service and you didn't link to any api docs
@edorian well, I proved to him that Twitter abandonded RoR and then he didnt say anything anymore
Still you where very civil
@edorian they didn't put this in their documentation so I asked here if someone knows how to do that. Btw, I'll put the documentation link in the question.
16:19
Good idea :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FastCGI#Language_bindings_for_the_FastCGI_API
no deep linking, meh
@edorian but isnt it funny how it was a RoR person. I mean, feed my bias please! That community is just such an obnoxious bunch. "RoR is teh awesome. you can do blog in 5 minutes." yeah, nice but it doesnt scale. kthxbai.
After reading that list i have to say: thats more languages than i tought
I'm currently using node.js, could someone list me advantages of using PHP apart from "battle-worn", "not young", "frozen API", "more secure due to 100s of bug fixes" and anything that's based on PHP being older.
Yeah, very stereotypical. I'll give you that
@Gordon why doesn't RoR scale?
16:21
Something you build in 5 minutes doesn't ;)
@Raynos performance becomes an issue if I remember correctly.
@edorian probably not no
@Raynos No sorry, i don't know of any "this is better because of X" lists that i could link you to
@Fallion is that based on threaded IO vs event loop IO (i.e. nginx vs apache) or something else?
and node.js and PHP are good friends
16:22
@edorian any personal reasons why PHP is better then node.js apart from age?
I know lots of php guys that use node for things like websocket and serve the main page from php
node isn't mature enough to build big long lasting applications on top of it if you want to work with normal developers
you'd need really good guys for that i'd say
True. It's still too young for maintenance and its hard
And PHP (like Java) is a very safe choice since every problem is known
I try writing a simple blog and im making trivial mistakes because its low level
But in conjunction the both can be really great
16:24
@Raynos Honestly I can't tell you personally. I just know that a lot of people I go to college with agree on this. Not to mention Twitter left RoR for exactly that reason. It's hard to find bottlenecks.
even so .js is even more dynamic than php
javascript is a great language
and let's you create really really hard to maintaine code very quickly
and node.js is doing it right with a) evented IO and b) low level code
However RoR does let you deploy something quickly.
16:25
so if you don't work with people that care about doing something maintainable it gets very hard
@Fallion ASP.NET Web designer lets you do RAD :D
@edorian oh yes. thats a big issue. You have far too much control to write bad code ;) I'm currently exploring code sharing across node & client
@edorian where can i have a look at the sf2dic?
The potential to build a single page client side app and use the same code to share content statically for javascript disabled people from node is interesting aswell as making SEO work.
I have a silly question: Do you guys work from home?
@Fallion no. I should be working >_>
16:27
@Fallion yes
@Fallion Nope
@Fallion nope
Hmm. I'm having this decision issue. I have 2 rooms available. One is my room, which is well lit, but small. The other is a library, darker, but more room. Which should I use? lol
No, we're not interested in making $2000 a week from our living rooms.
@Gordon i can't find the links for the life of me
16:29
Just incase you were going to ask
@Gordon please hold the line
Use the lighter room. Sunlight improves moon.
Sorry, I'm back
@ircmaxell no need to be sorry about that
16:30
@Michael Thanks.
@MichaelAngstadt what if its $2k and the work is good and fun ? Is there anything actively wrong with just working from home ignoring the other things that frequently come with it
@Raynos lol. And sponsored by a Nigerean prince.
@Raynos Oh well if that is the case...
@Gordon Referencing (Injecting) Services
I was joking...you know those ads you see "make $2k a week from home" :)
16:32
How can i get value from span with specified id which is very deep fast ?
:)
@edorian thanks
@MichaelAngstadt and all you need to do is put pens together!
@MichaelAngstadt Just by getting some hits on your website that we'll help you with. It's free, you just have to pay 200 bucks for our tutorial package.
Yes, it's a good deal, we swear!
Oh HTML5 Boilerplate, why do you make it so annoying to publish stuff.
16:35
Regex or DOM ?
@Fallion elaborate please
@edorian The build script fools the editor I use, so I can't use auto-publish, but have to go back in and highlight everything and push it up to the server.
publish as in "upload"?
Yuh.
i see
16:39
When you have to make changes every minute, to make sure that mothereffing IE6 is compatible it gets annoying.
@Gordon actually, no Twitter is not abandoning entirely rails
they are only replacing the Search stack
@Fallion that's why you have a local server and hot code reloading. You also test IE6 locally
@denysonique They're adapting it to their needs.
@Raynos I have a local server, I don't have IE6 locally.
@denysonique we all know real men write in C and run their own HTTP Servers written in C
@Raynos No, real men write in binary.
16:41
@Raynos In Soviet Russia C write you.
[xkcd-butterfly-pic-link]
@MichaelAngstadt get real. I have targets and things to do. I can't hand code the entire thing! Having a high level language like C is really useful for web development. Remember how you used to do all those manual longjmp's ? Now you can have procedures. I love high level languages
@denysonique i cited that they will eliminate from the search stack. now can we please stop talking about ror. this is the php chat not the ror chat
@Raynos lol :) nice one
Why are you editing the same message?
You edited it like 10 times
16:43
@MichaelAngstadt my FGOTW habits get into my chat habits
I have a very short buffer and flush a lot.
How do you test IE6 locally with only Win7 and OSX available.
@Fallion drop IE6 support. Problem solved
It's a tad annoying with @ messages because you get a "ping" for every edit but no biggy.
@edorian I didn't actually know that.
@Fallion Do you really still have to? Outch
16:45
@Raynos Bank client, 70% of target audience have IE6(employees have only IE6 on their computers)
I'll edit the @foo in at the end :)
@Fallion never mind
@Raynos I don't. :)
I've seen people use XP virtual machines for that
It makes sense to not work on client site
I would use a bunch of VM's for this tbh.
but i though there are other things that make it easier
16:46
get a nice 16GB i7 machine
or just have two computers.
@Raynos up until now, it has been handled by uploading to my website (not clients site) and testing using IE Render.
Also I do have 2 computers. One has Win7 and one has OSX(development laptop)
get the XP VM in win7 as long as you have 8gb of ram you can handle it
2 :)
You can get away with 4gb of ram
why do you have 2 ;_;
buy new ram
That pc is not used.
£70. get it.
It used to be a gaming pc and has long outlived it's purpose.
as a web developer I have two machines myself. one for development and one for testing / internet reference
Since I realised that A) It was a waste of money upgrading constantly B) Targets in life and changed and I couldn't explain to myself why I was spending so much on something that brought nothing useful.
16:50
yes it is. but a mac is worse ;)
a mac is far worse in terms of value for money
all you really need is 2.4ghz+ dual core & 8gb of ram & 64bit OS for development.
I've had that laptop for 4 years with no problems. The gaming pc has already cost much more over the years, if just for repair.
thats if you buy cutting edge or high end computer components
I've also had a win laptop for 4 years with no problems
However if TextMate, Coda and Espresso had a baby I'd be happy.
How to get value od DOMElement? Don't want tag name, attribute value just value
@Fallion whats espresso ? apart from a coffee.js thing
16:52
an Editor
@Robik el.value ?
In PHP, ->value don't works
Have you tried jquery.php ? jQuery(el)->attr("value")
I need clean PHP
And value of span xP
maybe ->text ?
16:54
:(
@phplover :(
@Raynos No :|
@Raynos yeah :(, I need fast help in here: stackoverflow.com/questions/5597897/…
Haha! Founded!
Quite minimalist, however it doesn't have good FTP time comparisons and has graphical bugs. Also one thing I like is drag and drop with relative paths on images and such. It posts the full path to the file.
16:57
It wasn't in DOMElement i ndocumentation it wa in DOMNode which DOMElement inherit. And it's ->nodeValue >_>
17:09
blah
@ircmaxell BLAM
#sigh
Followers: @ircmaxell @Gordon
Just as I clicked that I got the tumbleweed badge
Coincidence? I think not.
17:13
yeah
karma
off to develop a project called sigh just to create the tag
I need to remember my motto in times like this: Stupid people keep me in a job
@Fallion gratz! .. i guess
@ircmaxell did you see the update with the configOverride?
17:14
Tumbleweed is not easy to get these days
@Gordon Yeah, briefly
could you link it again, I think I accidentally closed that tab
wait, nevermind
one possible change: return strpos($argument, $this->lookupMarker) === 0; to return is_string($argument) && strpos($argument, $this->lookupMarker) === 0;
added
ive also added the possibility to change the lookupmarker
Will it override a numerically indexed array? I've never tried that
17:20
it will only override a numerically indexed array
since it's using +
well (array('name' => 'foo') + array('name' => 'bar') works as expected, just not sure about numerically indexed...
> The + operator appends elements of remaining keys from the right handed array to the left handed, whereas duplicated keys are NOT overwritten.
I know it does that for associative keys, but does it also do that for numeric ones? If so, cool!
var_dump(array('foo') + array('bar')); // array('foo')
yeah, works
$  php -r "var_dump(array(1 =>'foo', 2=>'bar') + array(2=>'baz'));"
array(2) {
  [1]=>
  string(3) "foo"
  [2]=>
  string(3) "bar"
}
17:24
i might add an array_values to make sure its numeric
Only problem:
 php -r "var_dump(array(1 =>'foo', 2=>'bar') + array('baz'));"
array(3) {
  [1]=>
  string(3) "foo"
  [2]=>
  string(3) "bar"
  [0]=>
  string(3) "baz"
}
well, technically the user is using it wrong then
its just a matter of how much stupid-guard to put in there
Tek
Tek
lol
lol
do a ksort before passing it to the constructor
ksort wouldnt do, would it?
17:26
yeah, otherwise the 0th element would be passed to the end
who knows aweber api?
??
wow , no one -.-
never even heard of it
protected function mergeConfigOverloadWithCtorArguments($configOverload, $className)
{
    return array_values($configOverload)
         + array_values($this->getCtorArguments($className));
}
noooo
otherwise you couldn't override a positional element
array(1 => 'foo') to override the 2nd argument only
I still think named arguments would likely be cleaner though...
ah. okay. you dont want to specifiy the defaults, like you would need to do with a regular ctor
17:33
Right
hmmmm
so you would just specify the overriden members only
im torn between "i like that" and "im too conservative"
convince me
:)
i could make that a strategy though
so you can enable fancy mode
Tek
Tek
Man, I really want 3 monitors now. 1 for stack overflow / stack overflow chat. 2 for development :D
hahaha
lol
:D
Tek
Tek
17:37
I'm having trouble keeping up with everything on 2 monitors
no joke
@Tek you have to learn to let go
@Tek You don't' have 2x3 monitors? I can't live without my 6 set up
6 x full screen 2560x1600 vim
Tek
Tek
@Gordon :(
@Tek ;)
Tek
Tek
17:39
@Gordon That's a good point. But... it feels so empty without SO :( You guys are like my background music :)
<<< lives in a Plexiglascube where each wall, incl. bottom and ceiling is covered with HD screens
posted on April 08, 2011

New on NetTuts.com there's a tutorial about using cron with PHP and how to manage the jobs your server currently runs. The cronTab, or "Cron Table", is a Linux system process / daemon which facilitates the scheduling of repetitive tasks thereby easing up our day to day routine. In this tutorial, we'll create a dynamic PHP class that, using a secure connection, provides us with a means to ma

@Gordon: something like this: pastebin.com/Dr48DaK3
Actually, slight tweak: pastebin.com/MJmkufss
weak?
17:43
ah **T**weak
yeah...
i think strategies would be a good choice
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Tek
Tek
I have someone that wants me to do a small modification to their site. He has the first and last name under one column in the database. He wants me to split first and last name to two different columns (so that he can sort names by last name). How much would you guys charge for something like that?
@Tek is it a long standing customer?
17:46
That would take like a few minutes to do.
Tek
Tek
@Gordon not really
are first and last name uniformly in the column?
Tek
Tek
Yes
are they really really really?
17:47
Charge him $75/hr and say it'll take a week ;)
Tek
Tek
@Gordon Let me give it a quick glance again but I think he did one sec
@MichaelAngstadt lol you're bad
I'm a bad moe-foe, as they say on the Street.
wow boring
Squeeze that puppy dry
If your not extorting then your not a PHP dev.
Hmm
I'm
But I have nothing to code
17:49
@phplover your just charging for your existence. I like it
@Tek are there any tools involved? e.g. schema manager or do you do it directly in the db? does the client have unit-tests? how long will the db backup take? does it also require changes to the website? in how many places?
i'm waiting for someone who knows aweber api
Tek
Tek
@Gordon I glanced at the 1099 records he had and they're very neat. First name followed by space and last name. Though some names have out of the ordinary characters but not a lot.
@Gordon He has a custom script where he inserts the names. If he has to edit anything he has to use phpmyadmin.
@phplover ... Seriously man. Get the source, read the source. Dont sit on your ass waiting for someone to help you
Tek
Tek
17:51
@Gordon Not a long standing costumer but I think he wants more work in the future. I've already done one or two things before for him.
@Tek what about all that code that gets "name" and needs to be changed to get "firstname + lastname"
@raynos I know everything in it, but there isn't any doc explain how to use the post methods in the api !! what can I do?
@Tek so what is there to do then? db backup, splitting the columns, what else?
@phplover read the source :P the api is defined in the source. Read the source then document the API yourself
Tek
Tek
Changing his custom script from one field to two fields
17:53
lol I'll do just for you :P
Tek
Tek
@Gordon So he can enter first and last name in the future.
@Tek how complicated is that? sounds easy
Tek
Tek
@Gordon That part would take me like 5 minutes tops lol
@Tek are there unit tests?
Tek
Tek
@Gordon Since it's a really simple script to insert.
@Gordon no
17:53
@Gordon havn't you heard. Do one little fix on someones database. Free maintenance role for life
He'll call up and says "Such and such is broken, I think its because of your change. Can you fix it. Thanks". "My website needs to be upgraded, please thanks". "I want to add custom youtube service in website. Do this by the weekend. thanks"
btw what does everyone charge here? Just curious.
@Tek well.. one or two hours then.
@Raynos Be computer literate = Free maintenance role.
Tek
Tek
@Gordon I don't know about all that, since I just burned my finger this morning... Really hard to type lol
@Fallion I dont charge anything.
@Gordon unit tests for databases? lol? Since when do people actually write unit tests
17:55
@Raynos Employee?
Tek
Tek
@Gordon I have to stop every 10 secons to hold a piece of ice xD
@Tek nothing ever only takes just 5 minutes :)
@Fallion fixed price full employement
@Raynos :)
@Raynos serious developers write unit tests
17:55
@Gordon serious developers dont ask you to do simple database maintenance
@Gordon not to mention that I would guess only about 3% of developers write full unit tests suites
@Raynos no, they are asked to do that
@Raynos so? because there is legions of developers not writing tests means we shouldnt write them at all? it's cargo cult? pointless crap? not necessary?
Tek
Tek
So then my question still stands, what would you guys charge for something like that? =p
@Gordon I write unit tests if I can. I'm just saying its unlikely there are unit tests
How do you unit test databases anyway? Are there active unit tests for SQL queries?
17:58
@Raynos with DbUnit
We dont even have version control for our database :D
We just run ALTER PROCEDURE on the live db.
@Tek do you code for a living or for a hobby?
Tek
Tek
@Gordon Hobby, thinking of doing it for a living someday though... I want to get better before doing that =)

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