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sbi
4:08 PM
@JamesMcNellis Who is Why?
 
@sbi: _why is a great guy
 
Find the next number in the series
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@Tony 1113213211
 
@Tony: 42
 
4:15 PM
@thecoshman yes
 
wasn't asking if I got it
 
@RogerPate that answer is always valid and never throws...
when you need to fill up a variable, like an object, is it better to return it from a function that fills it or pass it as a reference parameter?
 
if you trust your compiler, return it
if you don't trust your compiler, either check that it applies RVO or use an explicit out parameter
 
should I trust the compiler?
 
a recent one? (~5 years) sure, until proven otherwise (e.g. profiler)
 
4:23 PM
lol 8yrs
 
@sbi Oops. Time for another cup of coffee.
 
4:38 PM
@Tony: that's right, you did say vc2002 or 3; I stopped caring about it long ago, but you can find out what it does :)
 
hi all
 
hello
 
Hi
 
do you guy know in vs2008 how can i move an application i created to another machine? i am trying to test my static lib and i made a test application to do it but i wanted to see its behavior in a 64 bit env...but what is the process of moving it over
like do i just need to copy the static lib and exe or soemthing? not sure how i would do that or do i need to install vs2008 on that box and compile it will my 32bit static lib
in other words how do i deploy my test app without having to install vs2008 on target box and just copy my static lib. hope i am being clear as to what i want to do.
 
You should be able to copy all the files from the Release or Debug dirs
 
sbi
4:41 PM
@JamesMcNellis "Time for another cup of coffee hasn't had to solve a heisenbug?"
 
Run the app's exe on the target PC
 
@sbi heh
 
sbi
Doesn't make much sense either.
 
I am sorely tempted to change my SO name to Time for more Coffee, now
 
sbi
(Markdown should be renamed Letdown here. It keeps failing me.)
 
4:42 PM
especially with all these [homework] questions
 
hmmm does the location matter? of where i copy my static lib? or if my app is using it i can just run the exe/
cause i notcied when i just try to run the exe it just shows a dos window and quickly disappears
 
@user245823 Is it a console app?
 
@user245823: a static lib would be linked statically with the executable: you'd only have one file in the end
 
well i created it as a win32 app
not a console app
 
@user245823: start cmd, then run your exe, and you can see the error it prints
 
4:43 PM
You shouldn't have a console window if it were a win32 app
 
i c so in order to test i would really need to make a console version?
or install vs2008 on target box to run my win32 app
 
@user245823: no, I'm saying that if something got screwed up and your app is showing a console window, you need to see what it's doing
@user245823: the easiest way to see any output it spits out is to run the app from a cmd prompt
 
ok. it works on my current box no issues shows the output like it should
so i reckon now i just move the release folder to target box and go to cmd prompt and run the exe from cmd prompt to see what it says
 
that would be my first step, yes
 
@RogerPate I would do that for a day, but last time I changed my name, I almost got stuck as "Unicorns are Yummy" for a whole month...
2
 
4:52 PM
haha, I remember when that limit was first introduced
lots of people got stuck
 
GMan got stuck too but he kept his for a while.
 
 
1 hour later…
sbi
6:10 PM
Hey, anyone still out there listening?
I have been looking at the c++-faq tag and have found a few questions using this to refer to the official (external) C++ FAQ Lite. I see this as a problem, because to me it seems that c++-faq would be the right tag to refer to the official C++ FAQ, so it seems wrong to change their tag.
Still this shouldn't be confused with our C++ FAQ idea, so I have been thinking of using c++faq for the latter instead.
What do you all think about that?
 
@sbi Let's use c++-faq for our FAQ and retag the other questions parashift-c++-faq or c++-faq-lite.
2
 
what's the main use case for the proposed [c++-faq], again?
 
The idea, or what I understand the idea to be, is to tag questions that are frequently asked and have exemplary answers
 
sbi
@James Ok, let's do that.
 
@JamesMcNellis: can't we just update the [c++] tag wiki for that?
 
sbi
6:18 PM
@Roger The main thing I would add to the c++ tag wiki would be a pointer to the c++-faq tag wiki.
 
so [c++-faq] is just used to get an extra tag wiki?
 
sbi
(I'm actually in the process of creating a first, simple c++-faq tag wiki.)
 
@RogerPate A big advantage of using a tag is that you can search for [c++-faq] [templates] and easily get commonly asked questions realated to templates.
 
@sbi: you can get an extra "page" to be a wiki and keep updated by posting a question on meta, similar to [faq] questions already there
 
sbi
@Roger I think we have found a specific c++-faq to be the best way to collect FAQs. This are hard to do without additional features otherwise.
 
6:21 PM
@JamesMcNellis: that's a bit more interesting, but can't we just search the tag-wiki/meta-post for keywords? (we can include more than just 4 (5 - [c++]) and be more detailed about it)
@sbi: I dunno, you can collect questions fairly easily
 
sbi
@RogerPate There come advantages and disadvantages with the fact that just about everyone can edit a wiki, but few can edit a tag wiki.
 
yeah, advantages and disadvantages :)
it only takes 100 rep to edit the SO.meta FAQ, but I've not seen any vandalism, if that's what you're thinking
 
sbi
A few users have been tagging questions c++-faq for a while now, and to me this seems to capture the spirit of the discussion on Meta pretty well. I think we should go down that road and see where it takes us.
 
yeah, I started, then backed off
it's really just as easy to edit a tag-wiki/meta-post as add a tag
 
sbi
If all the questions have the same tag, it should be fairly easy to change plans later.
@RogerPate The difference is that you have the "edit tags" button right at the question. No need to go some other page, find the right spot, and insert text and link.
I think SO tends to try to make it easy for users to make information "self-organizing".
 
6:26 PM
maybe that difference is enough to keep those slightly more interested in maintaining it as the ones doing that
which could easily lead to higher quality
 
sbi
Adding a specific tag to elevate something to an FAQ seems to fit with this philosophy.
 
@sbi The same goes for searching. It's one click to search from any page. It's two or three clicks to get to the tag wiki (and for some reason I can never seem to find the links to click ;-))
 
bookmark it :) ctrl-f, or / with a vim-like browser extension :D
 
sbi
@RogerPate I'm very interested in doing this. But I'm sure I will rarely ever find the time to take the long way.
 
@sbi: I think you'll find it's quite a bit of upfront work, but much less to maintain and use — this is my experience with [faq] and [faq-proposed] on SO.meta
 
sbi
6:29 PM
I can't follow you. What's less to maintain? What's your experience? (Can you post links?)
 
also, SO ranks me as the highest contributor (21%) to the main faq page
and there's quite a bit of work in comments and edits not shown through those links
(I can't search and link to specific comments and edits, of course, SE makes that hard)
oh, during one notable spree, I recategorized all the [sofaq] (the old tag) to [faq-proposed], etc., that was something like ~70-100 questions, many of them editing for content, etc. as I went — still remember all that, took quite a bit of time
 
sbi
@Roger That all means that you seem to have a lot of time at hand to do this. Most of us don't have that time.
 
well, as I said, it's more upfront cost
maintenance cost is nothing in comparison
e.g. [sofaq] was disorganized because it dated back to before SO.meta existed
 
sbi
No, it's not upfront cost that's worrying me. Adding text and link to a specific question tags much more time than adding a tag to a question.
The way I see this, with the c++-faq tag we can do both. Tagging a question is easily done. Nothing prevents you or others to create an FAQ entry question.
 
what if we had two meta questions: one to suggest questions and the other to be an organized list
would it be hard to add a new answer to the former question, and let someone spend more time to incorporate into the latter?
I certainly spend lots of time on SO (edited about 100 questions so far today) and love c++... :P i.e. I'd be one of those people doing the latter
 
6:42 PM
@RogerPate Well, that's definitely more useful than the 100 sarcastic comments I've left today. ;-)
 
sbi
BTW, I had already thought of setting up such a question:
21 hours ago, by sbi
I'm contemplating of creating a "Definitive C++ Frequently Asked Questions" question in the same spirit, but I fear it would be shot down immediately.
 
it would be shot down on SO, but likely not on SO.meta
 
sbi
@Roger If you think this, then what are you arguing for?
 
I'd vote to reopen on meta, that's for sure :)
well, I'm not arguing for any one thing in particular
I'm just trying to find out how [c++-faq] meets our needs better than existing methods
 
sbi
I still don't understand why you first argue to set up a "question" to collect FAQs and then say it would be shot down anyway.
 
6:44 PM
I just don't see that it does, better than the [c++] tag wiki and [faq]-style posts on meta
it would be shot down on SO but not SO.meta
you do need to frame [faq]-style questions a particular way (I've started that on Ask Ubuntu, too), but you happen to know someone that has experience with just that
 
sbi
@RogerPate Well, please go to the question on meta and read all the answers and comments again. And search this room's discussions. We've been over this several times. I think we found out that the tag seems best, and I really want to move forward now.
 
I have, though it's been a few days since I read over your meta post (and it's somewhat difficult to see changes)
please don't think I'm opposed to a community-driven collection of questions — quite the opposite
 
sbi
@RogerPate If a few high-rep C++ tag contributers think such a question would be good to have on SO, if they explain its use sufficiently, and link to the discussions that lead to such a question, then I think such a question has a chance on SO.
@RogerPate I don't doubt that for questions to become good FAQ entries they need to be improved.
 
I have wavered from disliking [c++-faq] (on SO) to tentatively liking it, to now thinking it's the wrong idea — but if you go through with it, I think I'll probably just sit back and watch
why does a "master 'c++ faq' list post" need to be on SO instead of SO.meta?
 
sbi
@RogerPate Because it would bubble up on the tags it occupies and be easier found?
 
6:54 PM
what do you mean by bubble up?
if we add comments to questions added to link back ("This questions has been featured on our [C++ FAQ]." [] for a link), prominently link to it from the c++ tag wiki, and use the "featured" questions to close others as duplicates; you don't think people will find it?
 
sbi
They would be up-voted and often linked to, and thus bubble up on every relevance-sorted list of questions for its tags.
Haha, I've just found out that some user named Kevin has started to do exactly what I mean to do two years ago!
 
I think you underestimate it's performance there, and that's not really how the search is (currently) designed: it returns specific questions for your terms
oh, posting new questions is one thing, completely different from where we collect the "main" list
 
sbi
@RogerPate For starters, such a question would soon be atop of stackoverflow.com/tags/c%2b%2b/faq
 
@sbi Apparently he got frustrated with it and left a year ago :P
 
e.g. gman's copy-and-swap question — those belong on SO and not meta
 
6:58 PM
@RogerPate The copy-and-swap question belongs on meta?
 
sbi
@RogerPate That's true, I didn't mean to post new questions. But he has used the c++-faq tag.
@James Yes, he hasn't earned any rep in a very long time.
But it seems he was alone.
 
@sbi: let's take all those highly voted questions you want to include in [c++-faq]
and add a link to the bottom, something like

**[Featured in our C++ FAQ](http://example.com/)**
bah, you get the idea, a nice bold link at the bottom of the question text (rather than comments as I said before)
do you think people could find the main list when it's linked from the top 50 [c++] questions?
(or 50 out of the top 150 — however you want to slice it — but we do want to include the "best" in our faq, right?)
 
hello fellas
 
hey; afk for a bit
 
sbi
@Roger Nothing can beat such a question being atop of the list you see when you click on a c++ tag.
 
7:05 PM
afk?
 
sbi
@Roger yeah, work interferes here, too
@Tony Absent From Keyboard
 
yea, had to go home you know
I still have a little bit of a life beside C++
2
haha
 
7:20 PM
@Tony "away from keyboard" is what I always hear :)
@sbi that is one advantage, but remember there will be copycats (remember "hidden features"? "myths"? many more), and I doubt there will be people willing to put as much effort into it as you, myself, gman, james, and others have already shown for c++ — but, perhaps more importantly, it bucks the long-established-now trend of only "real" questions on SO instead of "I want to collect this list/poll/survey/..."
and that's assuming we can get it to the top of the list (okay, we could with enough effort and time), while the "featured" linkback I mention would work today, from any question we decide to include
and the linkback could be shown exactly where the tags are (at the bottom of the question), so it has the same advantage as using a tag for discoverability there
 
sbi
(Hopefully fixed bug, restarted tests, so again time for discussion here.)
 
while the meta post it links to can be used as a [c++-faq] tag wiki would be
 
sbi
@Roger What stops you from adding links to this question on SO?
 
(I think that summarizes what I said above, but sorry for the repetition)
nothing, that part is the same — so why does the "master list" need to be on SO instead of SO.meta?
 
sbi
@Roger LOL! For the reason I already gave you: Nothing can beat such a question being atop of the list you see when you click on a c++ tag.
 
7:27 PM
it won't be at the top except for a very few types of searches
 
@sbi Or somewhere near the top; it's been a year and the books list still hasn't surpassed the question about the "goes to" operator.
 
search by active? newest? additional keywords with [c++]?
what if we get SOInc. to "sponsor" the [c++] tag — and include a link to our FAQ on meta?
 
if we do a good enough job at that, I think they'd be willing
and then it would be shown every time you view [c++]
yes, it'll be at the top of the "faq" search and (with enough time and effort) the votes search, but not any of the others
do you see the sponsored links for android?
what if our main FAQ post was listed there?
 
sbi
@Roger This all can be done later. Nobody prevents you from perusing this road, if you think it's good. I might even support it.
But right now we need something to start right now.
Get going, and when whatever we thought up gets us stuck, change plans.
 
7:33 PM
so whip up a draft of all the questions you want included, start with currently tagged [c++-faq]
and I'll post it on meta tonight (or you can)
 
sbi
If this gets momentum, it might become easy to ask something reasonable of SO. Until then, we need to gain momentum with what we have.
Post what on meta?
 
the list of questions you want for our faq
we can always get the meta post deleted if we change direction, and it wouldn't buck the trend and policy for SO (setting a bad example for others)
 
sbi
Is the book question setting a bad trend?
261
Q: The Definitive C++ Book Guide and List

grepsedawkProvide QUALITY books and an approximate skill level. Add a short blurb/description about each book that you have personally read/benefited from. Feel free to debate quality, headings, etc. Books that meet the criteria will be added to the list. Books that have reviews by the Association of C an...

That's not a question per se.
Still, it's great to have.
Everyone agrees on that, I think.
What's wrong with a "Definitive C++ SO FAQ List"?
 
the content is great, it could be edited to fit SO's "jeopardy-style"
@sbi those old "non-questions" are around because the content is useful, but the trend and policy has been increasingly towards "ask a real question, even if you have to fake it"
 
sbi
@Roger And who sets the trend in the c++ tag?
 
7:39 PM
I'm talking about the trend for the entire site, which us [c++] users (and though it's my main tag, it's not the only one I watch, by far) should reasonably follow
 
sbi
I fully agree. But I think it is reasonable to setup an FAQ with the means we have on SO. To me, this is the tenor of the answers to my question on meta.
 
I don't see anyone really opposed to having the main c++-faq list be a meta post
except, perhaps, you :)
it is a list about SO, rather than being itself about programming (it is about programming indirectly, of course), and that's the purpose of meta
 
sbi
No, it's a list about C++ programming.
C++ programming is discussed on SO. Meta.SO is for discussing discussing programming (C++ and other).
 
isn't this a list of C++ questions that are on SO?
and doesn't that mean it's a list indexing content found on SO? thus essentially being about SO?
 
sbi
Oh c'mon, Roger! If you want to be that nitpicky, every question referencing another question would belong on meta! Let's stay reasonable, as you suggested.
The reasonable thing would be to have questions on C++ programming on SO.
A collection of questions about C++ programming is not meta.
Discussing whether such a collection belongs on SO is meta.
 
7:52 PM
I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this
 
sbi
Yeah, fine with me. :)
 
8:16 PM
respectfully disagree, that is, but I do hope to get more opinions from the wider community :)
 
@RogerPate I'd tend to agree with @sbi on this one. While I can see a degree to which it makes sense to view these as "meta", I don t think they really are. Meta is for questions about the site itself. These are about programming, not about the site.
2
 
there is also the tag wiki; that was my first thought but we kinda dropped it by the wayside somewhere
my understanding is this is exactly one of the use-cases for which that feature was added, and perhaps we should find a way to promote it more (i.e. a feature request)
it's also always two clicks away for us high-power [c++] users (once we're on a c++ question), one of the main advantages of this faq list (to link dupes)
 
I agree with Jerry, meta is for questions about the site. faq's are still programming questions, a collection of them are still programming questions
 
@thecoshman: a collection of programming questions is not itself a programming question
 
@RogerPate but its closer to that then a question about the site
 
8:28 PM
is it? :) it's about the resources the site offers
we'll be breaking somewhat-new ground whichever way we go
 
@RogerPate yes, its a collection of question and answers about programming. I can see what you are saying, but frankly think you are plain wrong. they are programming questions, thus go on the site for programming questions
 
yes, the questions linked from the collection go on SO itself, no doubt about that
 
sure its not the 'normal' format of one question with answers, but its still programming questions
 
sbi
@Roger One last try before I'm outta here: Meta.SO is for questions about Stack Overflow itself, not for questions about C++.
 
@sbi: we're going in circles, that's why I said we'll have to agree to disagree
 
8:32 PM
think of it this way, where would you put FAQ that appear on meta?
by your logic it should be collected together on a meta meta site
 
@thecoshman: it's worth pointing out that faq started out on SO and got moved to meta
 
sbi
BTW, I have started a tag wiki for c++-faq and moved two questions from c++-faq to c++-faq-lite.
 
and where are people going to look more for questions? the site for asking questions or the site for asking questions about asking questions?
 
@thecoshman: I link from SO to meta all the time
people seem to find it valuable, or at least they thank me
 
any way, dare I ask an actual programming question :P
on the subject of 3D programming
 
sbi
8:35 PM
Uh oh. Someone asking about programming!
I need to go!
 
@sbi ¬_¬
 
sbi
(I'll levae work now and go home. I might be online again later, or I might have a glass of wine and read a book instead. In the latter case: see ya'll!)
 
If I have a game that will allow the players to edit a mesh more or less all the time... how best to store this data?
 
@thecoshman Is it just a mesh, or will it include textures and such?
 
@JerryCoffin textures, but they do not /need/ to be perfectly aligned, talking ground and wall stuff here, not models like erm... a chair (is that really the best thing that cam to mind)
at times, the players may not be editing the mesh, so it will stay the same, in which I would like to take advantage of buffers. Would I be best waiting for the players to get to a state of being about to suddenly start editing the mesh then whip it over to the graphics card
 
8:43 PM
For a textured mesh, I'd probably use Wavefront .obj format. It's a fairly simple, text-based format that's pretty easy to parse so it's easy to write editors for it (and quite a few already exist). Its biggest disadvantage is that since it is text based, a complex mesh can be substantially larger than storing the same in a binary form would take.
 
@JerryCoffin I am wanting this be at run time though. Storing the mesh is going to be sorted later
kind of think I already knew that a a better system was needed, better then just an array of vertex data
 
@thecoshman Oh, sorry -- I misunderstood. Then again, for internal use it probably ends up pretty similar. Just for example, if you're using OpenGL to do the drawing, you typically pass it an array of vertex positions, normals, etc., and an array of triangles that use those vertices -- which is pretty much how obj files are arranged. DirectX changes the details, but not the general idea.
 
9:08 PM
just had a talk with my friend. basically, using DX, going to brake my models inot fairly small sections so that all of the ones in an area can be in buffers, and when one (possibly with over lap into nearby areas) gets modified, I can re-transfer that section to the graphics card
so my model data will exist both in system memory and in graphics memory. broken down into small sections that know where their data lies in one big vertex/index buffer on the graphics card
oh, and I am right in saying that its better to have a few BIG buffers then lots of small ones right?
 
Yes -- you basically do one call to transfer each buffer, so reducing the number of buffers reduces the function cal overhead.
 
9:43 PM
nice simply one... oct-trees painful?
 
10:05 PM
how do you guys estimate the time it will take to complete a project? I'm fairly new to C++, although not new to programming. I am doing a project and it's going slower then I would like. What would be your guys approaches to dealing with it? Would you take your time to get it right or rush it so the boss can have what he wants?
 
how long is a piece of string
a project takes as long as it takes
 
hehe
I guess that could be a good way to look at it
 
their is the lovely constraint trio (quoting some one here) "Your project can be on time, on budget or off high quality; pick two"
if you want it done faster, its either got become lower quality of you need to spend more money
and so on
 
that is true
 
10:38 PM
@Tony: I'm not dealing with it since I'm not working. But at the time I advocated a change of contract regime, where instead of one gargantuan project one would deliver functionality in smaller pieces, then customer could decide on whether to have more and anyway you'd get a better feedback loop. As I understand it that's later been adopted in "extreme programming" methodology & others.
@Tony: But I don't like methodologies. It's my impression that many say they're using this and that, but in reality only adopting some very visible elements, like methodology eye-candy, and doing all the rest more or less ad-hoc.
 
sbi
11:10 PM
"Would you take your time to get it right or rush it so the boss can have what he wants?"
Wouldn't that depend on what does the boss wants?
 

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